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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tanbe10 (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The one-word nomination is disappointing, and whilst not mandatory, no evidence of WP:BEFORE being met has been provided. Per WP:CSB I would not heavily weight the lack of English-language sources. Neither side's arguments prevail and as such the outcome is no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tanbe10

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Tanbe10 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Notability PERSIA ♠ 20:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. PERSIA ♠ 20:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 21:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I was pinged, above, so I dunno if that's cheating. But anyway... it meets the WP:7VIRTUES so there's a strong presumption to keep.
AfD is probably not really a super good place for articles as well put together as this. If OP feels compelled to destroy rather than create articles, there are probably many better candidates -- millions, probably. (In fact, I just went thru ten random articles, and two of them I'd delete for sure before I deleted this one, and four more on the borderline. So...) Herostratus (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

--PERSIA ♠ 05:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. You may be on to something here. Maybe. If the sources are bad, that's different from being un-notable tho. There's nothing inherently wrong with Wordpress or any other platform. Blogs aren't usually fact-checked, so you're thrown back entirely on the writer's reputation and analysis of the text. You have to drill down a bit more -- cross check different sources to see if they're reporting the same facts without using a common source, and so forth. It's fairly involved.
One of the problems with figuring out notability for Iranian entities is that, after all, Iran is a fascist dictatorship. And I mean Tanbe10 is apparently part of a scene that the government doesn't like very much. And the government does have a penchant for shooting people it doesn't like very much. So naturally mainstream Iranian media is going to shy away from writing about them -- who wants to get charged with "spreading corruption on Earth" or whatever and then shot? This doesn't mean that a lot of people don't know about Tanbe10, listen to them, or are influenced by them. Maybe so, maybe not. Let's look deeper.
If it's "maybe they are", I'd shy away against deleting all this work until we can can find out more. There's no hurry to destroy material, here. Unless it's misleading. Is it?
Also, I note that you're nominating several other articles about Iranian musicians right now. Is there an overarching rubric under which you're doing this? Or is it just cleanup? Do have an opinion about Tanbe10 and/or the underground gangsta rap scene in Iran?
The refs need to be looked at in detail. There's work to be done here. I'll shoulder my share presently. Herostratus (talk) 18:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The point here is that fame and Notability are important OR Finding credit through Wikipedia!!--Persia ♠ 08:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, they're on YouTube. Herostratus (talk) 14:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. One point is that, as a fact on the ground, I believe that cultural entities are treated within their geopolitical context. (If not, they should be, in my opinion but also the opinion of many others I think, lest we become overly English-language-centric.) A cultural entity that is a big deal in a culture group -- I'm thinking a discrete country or language, particularly. (For instance... Estonia has a population similar to that of Richmond, Virginia (metro area). However, "the second-highest bestselling book in Estonia in 1993" has a bit more cachet, for our purposes, than "the second-highest bestselling book in Richmond, Virginia in 1993". The latter is info about a random third-rate niche market in a big country, the former about that market of entire famous country with its own language; you're saying its a major book for the entire Estonian language. The same principle would apply to Iran/Farsi. Reasonable people can disagree with this tho, but that would bend the Wikipedia a bit toward West-centrism and valorization of big countries, for better or worse.
Nowadays, people don't buy physical records, so traditional sales as you'd see in Billboard are less useful and we need to look at more modern media.
I see that Tanbe10 has 16,000 followers on Instagram. Is that a lot? I have no idea, but it sounds like a lot. Some of these would presumably be up for buying your songs and going to your shows. And of course a lot of other people who aren't Instagram followers would also. Is that a notable-size fan base? Their top YouTube videos (if I'm doing this right) have views of 30,000, 30,000, and 24,000. Is that a lot? 39,000 followers on Facebook, if I'm reading it right. They don't seem to be on Twitter (or anyway I don't know how to find them).
Let's see... picking a couple bands band which I happened to have written the articles for... the Horse Lords have, and deserve, an article. they have 2,300 Instagram followers. Their top YouTube song has 34,000 views, but then it seems to drop off (the next has 19,000, and the next less than 3,000 -- again, if I'm doing this right). However, they have some long-form videos (which Tanbe10 doesn't have, I gather) -- 34,000 for a 20-minute session video, and 19,000 for a full album, but it drops off quickly after that. 5,800 Facebook followers and 2,500 on Twitter, I think.
The Horse Lords are in mainly because of a long New York Times article. Let's look at a more normal band, The Dexateens (I also wrote this one), who are in based on normal critera -- having several albums and numerous articles about them. They have 1,800 Instagram followers, and their top YouTube song views are 28,000 and 26,000. 6,500 followers on Facebook, 1,900 on Twitter.
Both of these bands rate having articles, without question, because they are American and therefore they have lots of English-language articles about them, and immediate access to 330,000,000 potential fans and 463,000,000 total in the Anglosphere. Iran has 83,000,000 population for Tanbe10 to draw a core fan base from.
I'd have to say that Tanbe10 is easily more popular than these two bands. Popularity = notability. (I get that our definition of notability = sufficient available written articles; but in the real world, notability is based on how many people know about them, talk about them, go to their shows, look at their videos, n'est-ca pas? The real world matters some, or should.
It is true that we need sufficient proper refs (I haven't checked them). However, if an entity actually is notable in the real world, we should definitely lean toward wanting the article, so rather than trying to find notability by going by refs, we'd be looking for refs to support their real-world notability and hoping to find them, so we'd want to bend to being as loose as possible in vetting refs, I think.
Anyway... it looks like the real argument here comes down to "Delete: not from an English-speaking country". I don't think that's a good criteria. Herostratus (talk) 14:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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