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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. —fetch·comms 04:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per Hüttner

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Per Hüttner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Possibly fails on ppoints 1 - 4 of WP:ARTIST. Article has links in a references section but the sources appear to be mainly blogs, websites with a fleeting mention of the subject, social networking, and gallery exhibition calendars. None appear to be RS or to assert the subject's notability. Further searches seem to reveal more social networking sites and blogs. Kudpung (talk) 08:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huttner clearly fulfills points 3-4 of WP:ARTIST. However, tt seems that me and my assistant have been a bit slack with the sources on this one. We have updated some stuff yesterday and today and will add some more when we have gone through catalogues and stuff.(we won't have time the next week or two though). I hope that we can sort out the problems. Huttner's a very important artist, even if he might not be the most commercially successful. all the best prallman —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prallman (talk • contribs) 10:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC) Hello again, we dug through the catalogues and hope that this will be the end of the discussion. Having worked on the text for a while it is clear that Huttner fulfills points 1-4 of WP:ARTIST criteria 3-4 of WP:ARTIST is beyond doubt considering that there are so many monographs about the artist and that he is collected by major museums in 3 countries. we think that we have figured out how to sign this and sorry for missing that in the above remark.all the best prallmanPrallman (talk) 10:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. There seems to be something to this person, but oh what a mess the article is. Sample selected pretty much at random: It has been shown in major museums in the USA[32], Spain[33]Poland[34], Romania, China[35] and Sweden[36]. "Major" looks like mere peacockery. Note 32 links to this page, within which a search for "Per" turns up nothing. Note 33 reads "'Pleasure and Pain all Rolled into One,' BIDA 2003, Centro de Arte de Salamanca, Spain, p.110-113". It's unclear to me what this is. Note 34 links to this, which is fine. Romania goes unsourced. Note 35 cites "'Gongzhen' Catalogue published by, Museum of Contemporary Art MoCA Shanghai." But what is "'Gongzhen' Catalogue"? Does it have an ISBN? Can I find a copy in a good library outside Shanghai? If, as I guess, "Gongzhen" is in Chinese, then it would be much easier to locate a copy if we were given the title in Chinese script. Note 36 links to this, which is fine. ¶ It appears to be an autobiography. The article was created and extensively worked on by Prallman. Let's look at File:Sachi.rome.JPG. It was uploaded by Prallman, with the comment ({{Information |Description=documentation from Sachi Miyachi's performance at 1 to 1 projects |Source=I created this work entirely by myself. |Date=sept 2008 |Author=Per Hüttner |other_versions= }}). -- Hoary (talk) 03:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JForget 00:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: some suspicion is thrown on this by association with The invisible generation (art project) and I am a Curator, articles about projects by Hüttner which were created by user Hannah.bu.bu (talk · contribs) who also created Mark DeSilca, speedily-deleted as a blatant hoax with false references. That article had mutual cross-references with another blatant hoax Quantum Police created the same day by user Hao.hao.hao (talk · contribs), who has (trivially) edited this article. Anything associated with these two hoaxers needs careful scrutiny. JohnCD (talk) 09:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. —Hoary (talk) 00:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The longer I look at this article, the screwier it looks. Here's a second sentence: Other noteworthy exhibitions that dealt with these issues and that engaged the audience<ref>Per Hüttner and Gavin Wade interviewed by Barnaby Drabble , Marianne Eigenheer (Hg.) Curating Critique, ICE Reader 1, 2008, ISBN 978-3-86588-451-0]</ref> in continuously reshaping the exhibition<ref>“O'Neill, Paul, [[Art Monthly]]; Apr2004, Issue 275, p7-10</ref> was [sic]: ''I am a Curator''<ref>[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6371/is_80/ai_n29071086/ C: International Contemporary Art, Wntr, 2004 by Fergal Stapleton]</ref> at ''[[Chisenhale Gallery]]'' in [[London]]<ref>[http://www.supportstructure.org/ss_phase1_02.html Support Structure's contribution to the Exhibition]</ref> and ''Participate?''at ''CEAC'' in [[Xiamen]], [[China]] and at ''Basekamp'' in [[Philadelphia]] <ref>A Tasty Treat, James Westcott, [[Zingmagazine]] 18; p.270-272; 2003; New York, USA</ref>. So the noteworthiness and engagingness are on the say-so of Hüttner himself (and/or one Gavin Wade). The findarticles.com article does indeed exist. "Support Structure's contribution to the Exhibition" is in soporific MFA-ese; it's a long advert by its authors. "Zingmagazine" -- we're told in a totally unsourced article within that unreliable source Wikipedia -- has always offered redactional [sic] freedom: artists and curators are invited to submit what they choose with zing publishing the project as is. Contributors have appreciated the opportunity to create projects that they might not otherwise have the chance to create. Which seems to mean that it lacks any quality checking. ¶ And this is all for a single sentence within this article. -- Hoary (talk) 01:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. There's quite a bit about our man Hüttner here in en:WP. But it's all at least a bit dodgy. Take "Democracy and Desire", for example. It's a long article on "an evolutionary exhibition project by artist Per Hüttner that develops as it travels". Here we have Prallman adding to it: The approach to Zen Koans in this form was much less austere. The content was pushed towards a more blatant idiocy, humour and with a further shift to the carnivalesque and holding back the mysterious and nonsensical approach of the Buddhists. The contrast between the cool appearance of the installation and absurd content of the texts shows that the artist takes a more positive and proactive approach to the issues at hand. He moves further in the research to see how contemporary science and its outlook on temporality can be used to inspire life and art. Which was, and remains, unsourced. -- Hoary (talk) 02:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aren't you sometimes missing the point? The first line in the paragraph about Hüttner's work reads "Hüttner's work investigates our perception of reality by looking at the limits of time, identity[14] and rationality and tries to provoke curiosity and imagination in the minds of the visitor enabling them to create loopholes of personal freedom for themselves." He is a great friend of and greatly influenced by David Wilson and The Museum of Jurassic Technology. He has used Jean-Yves Girard's text Mustard Clocks (Les montres à moutarde, une approche intégrée au temps et à la nourriture) [1] as an integrated part of an exhibition (which Girard translated for Hüttner's show at The Museum of Time). It is hardly surprising that he attracts the attention of hoaxers and that any text about him is full of traps and tricks. But this does not diminish the artistic quality of his endeavour. My assistant has found a few more ISBN's which will be added tomorrow.Prallman (talk) 14:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Far be it for a mere (non special-purpose) editor of Wikipedia to attempt to evaluate the artistic quality of his endeavour. Let us put that aside, and instead concentrate on this bit: "any text about him is full of traps and tricks". Would "any text about him" include any Wikipedia article about him? -- Hoary (talk) 14:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A very interesting question indeed and an enormous one, as a matter of fact, it is safe to say that it is probably one of the most debated questions in 20th and 21st century philosophy as I am sure you are well aware. Further, wikipedia texts are a joint venture and what above mentioned hoaxers and other contributors have written is beyond my control. I assume that what you want to ask is: “have I contributed with any deliberate traps or tricks in my contributions?” and the answer to that question is obviously, no. This question has been addressed in different ways numerous times above and in the autobiography question. I appreciate you and your colleagues’ efforts to make wikipedia a reliable source. It is a great and amazing endeavour. Like I promised yesterday, I have now added some more sources and ISBN numbers that my assistant has dug out and cleaned up some other weak points in the references. I am afraid that some of them are faulty, but we have copied them as they appear on the back of the publications. In some cases the publications can be traced in other ways.Prallman (talk) 23:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am not personally familiar with Hüttner, but perhaps I should be. This article in a major Swedish daily paper speaks of him as an established artist that the initiated reader (the kind of person who regularly reads art criticism and follows the contemporary Swedish art scene) is expected to have heard of. Both Göteborgs konstmuseum (the Gothenburg Museum of Art) and Liljevalchs konsthall, mentioned in his list of exhibitions, are important, major exhibition spaces. I don't really have the time to look at the article or the sources in detail and can't judge whether there are issues with the content or sourcing that makes it problematic in some way, but the topic appears to be valid. --Hegvald (talk) 01:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ http://iml.univ-mrs.fr/~girard/Articles.html
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