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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete by overall consensus and expressed desire by the creator to delete it. I advise the creator to try to understand the concepts of significant coverage and notability as used on Wikipedia. The coverage must be significant, independent of the subject, in a reliable source, and not local, all at the same time. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:48, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Linqua Franqa

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Linqua Franqa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Major WP:PROMO (and possibly autobiog/COI) going on here but it also appears to be WP:TOOSOON with only hyper local coverage and nothing significant as a politician or an artist. Tons of interviews but noting in the way of independent and in depth. And while there are a few mentions in non-local sources, they are not significant and fall under WP:BLP1E.Praxidicae (talk) 18:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not the person in the article, I can assure you of that. The article discusses music in Athens, GA, so I would argue this is a town that is very influential in music around the country. In addition, the article cites NPR, Georgia Public Broadcasting, CNN, Newsweek, and various others. I'm actually trying to add more material to the article to improve it, get others to come in and fill in details I don't have. It's honestly difficult to find sources because of the overwhelming amount of articles that talk about the Malcolm X autobiography swearing in, which aired on CNN our local television stations, etc. It was kind of a big deal. I'd also argue that Praxidicae may be doing this with political intent. I don't know who Praxidicae is and this person may be doing this innocently but Linqua Franqa ruffled a lot of feathers with the swearing in. I'd also argue that this is a black musician in a predominately white town and many of the articles discuss this issue that she is facing with representation and getting herself out there. This individual has had a profound influence on Athens music and bringing in the black community. This was definitely not the case a few years ago, where people were discriminated against based on dress codes and other issues that may the black community reluctant to go to the venues. She has been an activist who has promoted change in the music venues, brought in more music, and has definitely made a difference here.e6fanatics

(edit conflict)I'm not sure what political gain I could possibly have but I do not even know who this person is. With that being said, this is a deletion discussion about Linqua Franqa not Athens or it's history, so maybe let's stick to the topic at hand and not whatever else is in this wall of text... Praxidicae (talk) 19:35, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's an article that is connected with Athens, GA music history, which has its own artile. I'm wanting to add information about the hip-hop scene, so yes, it's important. It's considered an award winning article that is in desperate need of some updates based upon what is currently going on. e6fanatics|talk

How is this an award winning article and who has issued this award? Color me confused...Praxidicae (talk) 19:43, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Music of Athens, Georgia article is the one that was considered an award winning article at one time if I recall or it got on the main page as a best of. This article was just made a few hours ago without any chance of doing anymore editing without defending the existence of it.[[User talk::e6fanatics|e6fanatics|talk]]

Last I checked, that's not the article that I nominated for deletion... Praxidicae (talk) 19:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia does not have or present "awards". Some articles are temporarily highlighted as good articles that represent solid examples of the Wikipedia process working at its best, but that's not an "award" — because our standards evolve over time, and articles can be made worse again as new people make new edits, having been highlighted at one time is not a permanent honour that the article retains forever as a distinction. And at any rate, notability is not inherited, so even the fact that an overview article about the city's music scene as a whole was once featured as a good article does not reify into an automatic inclusion freebie for every individual musician in that scene, if their own standalone notability in their own right isn't properly demonstrated. Bearcat (talk) 17:31, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're being a little bit rude about it, aren't you? I wanted to point out that the user, User:ONUnicorn, reviewed the article and said it did not qualify for deletion. I'd like to know their reasons before my further edits as to why you believe it can stay. e6fanatics|talk

He/She said it didn't qualify for speedy deletion. Praxidicae (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And also gave a reason why they wouldn't delete it based on it meeting criteria: "Article is not promotional in tone. References demonstrate at best marginal notability" .e6fanatics|talk

e6fanatics It might be best for you to check out WP:CSD and WP:AFD which discuss the difference in deletion criteria. Praxidicae (talk) 20:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You may also want to check there too because there are parts that say: C. Consider whether the article could be improved rather than deleted, which it definitely can be if you would wait instead of deleting an article that was just started. e6fanatics|talk

I have added to the article with information about her music from the New York Times, Performer Magazine, Magnet Magazine, Soundblab. I added extra information about the significance of the election because of her age and amount of votes. I'll see what else I can locate later on. E6fanatics (talk) 23:09, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vermont One of the rules of deletion that I noticed: "Don't just vote, explain your reasoning." In addition, after the revisions were made is there any possibility of changing this vote?E6fanatics (talk) 07:52, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
E6fanatics, still not seeing notability. Vermont (talk) 10:15, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Georgia (U.S. state)-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:23, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:23, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:23, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:24, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:24, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First, I'm from Athens so I don't know if that clouds my judgment, but this particular artist is very well known around here. This article appears to have a reference to the New York Times, Austin Townhall, Magnet Magazine, Impose Magazine, NPR, Vinyl Magazine, Medium, The Root, Essence, Teen Vogue, the Independent, Ebony, Newsweek, The Hill, a transcript from CNN (which I don't know about that one), Washington Times, AlterNet. These appear to be legitimate links with some on the indie side of music, but with several mainstream sources. The Medium article demonstrates that the protesting got some national attention before the Malcolm X incident. The New York Times article indicates a mainstream article that was interested in her music. I've also noticed an awful lot of editing so maybe the problems are resolved with this article. It appears to have more references than a lot of other articles I've read about a musical artist. It definitely needs some revisions to put bits of information into categories such as Influences, etc. Also, the Political Career category, I'd think something else would be better like Activism and Politics maybe? ZH321 (talk) 03:42, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • ZH321, if she’s known “around here” she likely isn’t notable. Vermont (talk) 10:17, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vermont REM and the B52's are also known "around here", so I don't know how you can jump to that conclusion. Local notability discrediting general notability doesn't make logical sense. Affirming a disjunct.E6fanatics (talk) 15:03, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, without prejudice against recreation in the future if and when somebody can do better than this. Local notability in a single city is not, in and of itself, enough to get a person into Wikipedia — R.E.M. and the B-52s are both internationally famous, not merely local notables whose fame is limited to Athens itself, so comparing her to them doesn't wash. But this is written in a very advertorialized public relations, rather than encyclopedic, style, and it doesn't make any claim of notability strong enough to override all of the problems with the sources — musicians aren't guaranteed Wikipedia articles just because they exist, and neither are county councillors, but this article as written isn't doing a good job of demonstrating that she clears the bar for either endeavour. The fact that she got a blip of coverage for choosing to be sworn in on a copy of Malcolm X's autobiography, in lieu of a conventional religious text, just makes her a WP:BLP1E, not a subject who's earned permanent coverage in an encyclopedia as of yet. Creator also needs to familiarize themself with our rules about reference bombing: the notability test is not cleared just by hyperpacking the number of footnotes present in the article as high as possible — the question of whether a person gets over WP:GNG or not is not just about how many footnotes there are, but takes into account factors like how substantively about her any given source is or isn't, the geographic range of where the coverage is coming from, and the context of what she's getting coverage for. Not all possible references are equally strong or equally valid demonstrators of encyclopedic notability — and too many of the references here are falling toward the bottom of the scale on one or more of the criteria that actually test whether a source is notability-supporting or not. Bearcat (talk) 17:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • AdcockLIf I can interject - the article from NPR came about after a reporter actually saw her perform at SXSW. I understand the point about how not all references are equal - especially in the music press, when many writers either copy-paste from the presser or just squeeze out 100 words of basic bio info. But being noticed at SXSW - by NPR, no less - is a major accomplishment, given the massive swarm of artists that flock to Austin every year. Should also add that the Performer Magazine feature was the cover story for that issue, and that's NOT a local publication - they're based in Somerville, MA! AdcockL (talk) 22:00, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with the NPR source is that it isn't about this person; it just mentions her name a single time in the process of being an unsubstantive listicle about a lot of people. People do not get over our notability criteria by getting named in media coverage that isn't about them; they get over our notability criteria by being the subject of substantive coverage. Bearcat (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • e6fanaticsYes! Magazine is based in Bainbridge Island, WA 98110. Buzzfeed is based in New York City. Alibi based in Albuquerque, NM. Overblown based in Ireland and the UK. Impose Magazine Kansas-based magazine. Backseat Mafia based in the UK. Big Takeover Magazine based in New York. E6fanatics (talk) 00:28, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that those sources all fall on the spectrum running from weak to outright garbage. Some of them aren't substantively about her, and the ones that are about her in any substantive way are WordPress blogs and alt-weeklies, not publications that count as notability-building coverage. Bearcat (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Inaccurate representation of the articles. Yes! Magazine is a magazine not written as a blog, Buzzfeed is definitely not Wordpress, Alibi is not wordpress, Overblown reports stories that are published in NPR, Rolling Stone, NME, Pitchfork, Consequence of Sound, and Brooklyn Vegan, Impose also does not appear to be a wordpress, Big Takeover is a Magazine publication. The only one that even qualifies for that is the Backseat Mafia which runs a record label and puts on a music festival. This also demonstrates a lack of knowledge of website design and how several sites, including University websites are built with Wordpress. It's a web design method where you can build your site from the ground up using it and host it within your own domain site without connecting to the Wordpress webpageE6fanatics (talk) 06:07, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Completely accurate representation of the articles: I didn't say Yes was a blog, the problem with Yes is that the article isn't about her, it just mentions her in the process of being about something else, which is not support for a person's notability. Buzzfeed is a giant worthless bag of flaming cow shit when it comes to ever establishing the notability of anything or anybody, because it's Buzzfeed. Alibi is an alt-weekly, not a notability-supporting major daily newspaper. Overblown is a one-man Wordpress operation, so it doesn't matter where it aggregates some of its other content from. Impose does appear to be a WordPress blog; for starters, consider the fact that its "about" page is blank, thus making it impossible for us to evaluate it for essential reliable sourcing factors like who owns it or how many people are on its editorial masthead. And on and so forth. This doesn't demonstrate any lack of knowledge of website design on my part; for one thing, university sites aren't notability-building media, so what content management platform they use is irrelevant. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Overblown is a one-man Wordpress operation, so it doesn't matter where it aggregates some of its other content from." It says in the rules about Exceptions on blogs: "Self-published material and content from non-staff contributors may sometimes be acceptable when the author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications."E6fanatics (talk) 15:03, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That condition means that we can cite the self-published websites of established experts, like Robert Christgau in music or Roger Ebert in film, who are famous and notable in their own right as critics. It does not mean that every blogger gets to claim passage of that criterion just because their blog has been mentioned in other more reputable media — the blogger has to pass one of our notability criteria as a writer before his personal blog qualifies for the "exceptions on blogs" pass. Bearcat (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • e6fanaticsAs a young 18 year old black woman I feel like I'm being put on trial here with very condescending disrespectful comments throughout this process. In addition, seeing a young black woman also being put on trial to prove her worth to what I assume are white men, who has obtained a Masters, working on a PhD, working in local government, and pursuing a music career while other women degrade themselves in the hip hop world. This is woman that us young people look up to and who we should aspire to be. Honestly, this process makes my skin crawl and really justifies why people of color have to work so hard to achieve and how the world seems to be against us.E6fanatics (talk) 00:54, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    E6fanatics, how does race or sex have anything to do with this? Those in favor of deletion are simply saying that she doesn't meet WP:GNG. Vermont (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    VermontDepending on who you are it can have a lot to do with your vantage point. I'd propose that CAPTAIN RAJU should add categories based on race, hip-hop, and gender queer should be added in order to have diversified eyes on the article.E6fanatics (talk) 01:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notability guidelines: Musicians or ensembles (this category includes bands, singers, rappers, orchestras, DJs, musical theatre groups, instrumentalists, etc.) may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria.

5. "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)." Happy Happy Birthday To Me Records has releases by Of Montreal, Marshmallow Coast, The Essex Green, Great Lakes, and Masters of the Hemisphere, Bunnygrunt, The Ethical Debating Society, His Name Is Alive, Joe Jack Talcum, Skinny Girl Diet, Throwing Muses, The Wedding Present, Witching Waves, Keith John Adams, Baby Calendar, Bearsuit, Boyracer, Calvin, Don't Jump!, Casper & the Cookies, Fablefactory, Fishboy, Flink, The High Water Marks, The Ideal Free Distribution, Joanna Gruesome, Kingsauce, The Lovely Eggs, Russian Spy Camera, Sarandon, The Superions(Features member of the B-52's, Velcro Stars, Neutral Milk Hotel.

She is on the Sounds of Athens, a compilation record pressed by Kindercore. They released music by Of Montreal. Their new pressing plant has pressed KMFDM, Willie Nelson, Cindy Wilson, Kishi Bashi. They also pressed the vinyl version of Model Minority. source: https://www.discogs.com/label/1340627-Kindercore-Vinyl and http://athica.org/event/sounds-of-athens-record-release-party/

Having tracks on compilation albums does not count toward passage of this test: it's two full studio albums in her own name, not EPs or tracks on comps. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

4. "Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country." The article mentions the tour with Jim James of My Morning Jacket.

The notability test here is not the ability to nominally verify that the person toured; it is the ability to show that the tour generated a boatload of media coverage about it, such as full-on reviews in major daily newspapers of every concert stop. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

7. "Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability." One of the most prominent members of the hip-hop community in Athens.

A criterion which isn't passed just because you say so, it's passed when solid sources tell us so by directly comparing her prominence to other members of the hip hop community in Athens, and this article shows no sources which do that. This is one of the most frequently abused criteria in NMUSIC, actually, because every musician can and does simply attempt to claim it — so it's one that has to be supported by much more solid sourcing than you've shown here before it turns into grounds for an article. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have found this source from Creative Loafing, with this quote. "In addition to being an active organizer in the Athens community, Parker is an ardent supporter of the city’s burgeoning hip-hop scene as a prominent MC and founder of Hot Corner Hip Hop." - Jake Van Valkenburg, Creative Loafing. https://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/content-412621-Mariah-Parker,-Soul-Food-Cypher,-A3C-carry-hip-hop%E2%80%99s-activist-legacy-E6fanatics (talk) 12:19, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

8. "Has won first, second or third place in a major music competition." Not sure if this qualifies but this is an award in honor of Vic Chesnutt. Most likely not. http://www.classiccityrotary.org/vic-chesnutt-songwriter-of-the-year.php

No, that wouldn't count. This criterion would apply to famous things like American Idol or The Voice, not to every music competition that exists. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

10. "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc." She is in two documentary films. Sicyon Project and has a performance on the upcoming film Athens: GA 30 Years On. This is a sequel to Athens, GA: Inside/Out The trailer can be found here which shows her performing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2ulrLgSQU

Appearances in films become notability when media write content about those appearances, not when they're referenced to the film's IMDb page or a YouTube copy of its trailer. It isn't a free notability pass just because you can provide technical verification that it happened — it only becomes notability when media have devoted their editorial resources to producing independent content about the film appearance which analyzes why the film appearance is noteworthy. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

11. "Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network." The NPR show mentioned in the article.

There is no source in the article indicating that she's been placed in rotation by NPR — there's an NPR article which mentions her name in the process of not being about her, but nothing which says anything whatsoever about her getting placed in rotation by the network — an embedded Spotify playlist in the article itself does not constitute passage of this criterion, if you can't prove that the network threw her song on the air on a regular basis. And since NPR doesn't even have any centralized playlisting, but rather each NPR music station makes its own completely independent playlisting decisions about its own station alone (and most of them, at that, are talk or classical stations, not contemporary music stations that would be playing a hip hop artist), this is a criterion it's virtually impossible for NPR to pass at all. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

15. "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network." CNN broadcast.E6fanatics (talk) 06:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The only CNN broadcast mentioned in the article is a transcript in which she gets briefly mentioned as the very last news brief before the anchor signs off. The test for this criterion is being the subject of a whole show, not just having her name mentioned in the final minute. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line is, the rule is not that as long as you can claim that a person checks one or more boxes in NMUSIC, they're entitled to have an article no matter how lousy the sourcing for it is. None of the criteria in NMUSIC can be passed without really solid sourcing for the claim — a musician's notability lives or dies not on what the article says, but on how well it does or doesn't reference what it says, and the sourcing here is far too strongly dependent on unreliable sources and glancing namechecks of her existence in coverage of other things, and not nearly enough on reliable or notability-supporting coverage about her. She can claim to pass every criterion in NMUSIC, but the sourcing still has to be better than this before an article gets to exist — because the controlling factor is the "quality of the sourcing" test, not the "what the article says" test. Bearcat (talk) 08:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can I request that the bulk of this discussion that doesn't otherwise contribute to the AFD be moved to the talk page as it's somewhat derailing it due to an apparent lack of understanding Wikipedia's requirements. Praxidicae (talk) 12:57, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

She's on Adult Swim streaming right now http://www.adultswim.com/streams . Wouldn't this count toward notability as appearing on a national network program? Wayback machine link used. Viewing the page source is needed to see the script which uses Schema.org items to display the shows. Wayback is not running the script properly. E6fanatics (talk) 02:47, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete as failing WP:NPOL as failing WP:NSINGER and WP:NOTPROMO. This is very clearly a splendid effort by a publicity hungry person to get her name out in as many sources as possible judging by the mass of puff pieces and reports of a publicity stunt during her swearing in and as she says "I wanted Malcolm's book. I think they saw it coming." I think we can all see it coming too...Dom from Paris (talk) 13:02, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd argue that if I am doing promo, how would that work exactly? Am I the artist, even though I was editing this article at 10:44pm last night while also performing Live simultaneously on that Adult Swim show? At this point I just want the articles deleted. If it's going to drag people through the mud like this then it's not worth it.E6fanatics (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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