Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Libyan National Army

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to National Liberation Army (Libya) . v/r - T P 14:59, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Libyan National Army

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This very recently created article is absolutely redundant. We already have Libyan Army (1951–2011) about the pre-2011 army and National Liberation Army (Libya) which describes the 2011-onwards army. Everything written in this new, third, article can be easily inserted in either of the two older articles. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 17:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article TaalVerbeteraar refers to was moved without consesus and without any source backing this move, he himself provided no source for his claim that "state ceased to exist" and that "armed forces ceased to exist". Morever there is no single source which refers to current Libyan army as "National Liberation Army" which was used to describe all anti-Gaddafi militarized forces during civil war, including local militias and also Tripoli insurgents or tribesmen such as Tebu during Fezzan campaign and their push to Murzuq and Qatron. In reality no unified, centralized organization existed and its existance caesed with end of civil war and loss of unificational goal of anti-Gaddafi forces which in some cases fought against each other (current events in Sabha or before that in Kufra for example). However name of current armed forces is sourced, Libyan Navy for example, as a branch of armed forces, celebrated back in November their 49th anniversary [1] what goes completely against what TaalVerbeteraar claims (armed forces, navy included, ceased to exist and post-2011 navy is completely new). Lastly, fact that I didnt nominate moved page for deletion, as I should have, has nothing to do with fact that before creation of Libyan National Army article there was no article dealing with armed forces of Libya which is now created, backed by sources and aside TaalVerbeteraar no one raised one objections towards it. EllsworthSK (talk) 17:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The move EllsworthSK refers to was not actually carried out by me, but by User:Petri Krohn, although I supported it. In your consideration of this deletion proposal, please also note Libyan Air Force, a content fork of Libyan Air Force (1951–2011) created by the same user, and Libyan Ground Forces, yet another word-for-word content fork, again created by the same user. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant, wikipedia is not democracy but move has to be backed by consensus, sources and in accordance with wikipedia guidelines. Two of these things were completely ignored by User:Petri Krohn. As a for fork article, there are two of them Libyan Army (1951–2011) and Libyan Air Force (1951–2011) bytheway both copyvio per Wikipedia:CSD#G12 of these sources [2] and [3]. I´ll get to that later, however thanks for notification. EllsworthSK (talk) 17:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yes. And let me relate on National Liberation Army beeing the armed forces of Libya issue just a little more. NLA is name given to all brigades/kateebas/militias units, for example also Misrata militias. If those militias are therefore armed forces of Libya than how come that they are beeing (or at least government is trying to) integrated into armed forces like this source states [4]. Naturally there are gazillion other sources saying the same thing, we have a lot of them in wiki articles already, for example in National Liberation Army (Libya)#2011_transitional_period_and_restructuring article itself. EllsworthSK (talk) 18:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please, EllsworthSK, there's a thing called the 'history' button, using which everyone can see that Libyan Army (1951–2011) and Libyan Air Force (1951–2011) have a history of years, whereas the articles created by you (Libyan National Army, Libyan Air Force) are mere days old. Everyone can see which are the original articles and which are the forks. Trying to save your articles from deletion by pretending that the original articles are the forks is not going to help. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You missed the point. Not that surprising given ignoration of rest of my post. So let me repeat it clearly, you created article dealing with armed forces of Libya from 1951 till 2011. I created article dealing with armed forces of Libya throughout the whole history of Libya. Clear enough? However if you are suggesting that 1951-2011 articles should be merged into the ones you nominated for deletion, I agree. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect to National Liberation Army (Libya) – WP:POVFORK and copyvio. – Same applies to its sister article discussed here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Libyan Ground Forces.
What this article does, is uses sources form the Gaddafi era to make statements about the current military on the new "free" Libya. It falsely claim a continuity between the Armed Forces of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and the National Liberation Army (Libya) (or what ever military Libya now has). This is not true, the Jamahiriya forces were decimated and totally wiped out in the Libyan Civil War. The new army is being built around revolutionaries and rebel fighters, i.e. practically from scratch. For this new army we cannot use pre-2011 sources. Anything said must be based on fresh new sources about the post-revolution army. It may be, that some people or even small units have moved from the old army to the new. If this is so, we need sources to prove it. Some of the old Soviet arms have been taken into service, for this we need fresh sources. Most likely the Soviet arms, what ever remains will be abandoned and new weapons will be bought from the US and the West.

Even more complicated is the fact that the Armed Forces of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and the National Liberation Army (Libya) are or have been fighting a bloody civil war. There is absolutely no way we can squeeze two sides of a war into the same article. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to adress several points. No copyvio, if you can find one, source it. Secondly - as I wrote twice before, it was you alone who moved the article without any consensus on the talk page and without any backing of source. Thirdly - Armed Forces of Libyan Arab Jamahiriya existed only at one phase, before that it were Libyan Arab Republic Armed Forces, before that Libyan Royal Armed Forces. Now they exist in new one. Following this - you claim that is beeing built from scratch is a nice one, however it goes against situation like for example in case of Rwandan Defence Forces which were decimated even more after genocide than Libyan, yet article says they were founded in 1962. Or Iraqi Armed Forces founded in 1921 although Iraqi military was formally disbanded by CPA on 23rd May 2003 and formed officialy anew months later. Till dissolution of CPA it was under foreign authority. Other examples include Republican Forces of Côte d'Ivoire where opposition forces led by Ouattara defeated with international help Gbago government forces and as you can see on Second Ivorian Civil War article page, military of Ivory Coast is included as combatant. Armed Forces of Liberia is another example, country went through two civil wars, both times won by anti-government forces. Yet, article states they were founded in 1908. Spanish Army article states that these forces were established in 15th century. Surely, I dont have to tell you that between now and than, government, with armed forces on its side, was defeated numerous times. Most recently in Spanish Civil War. I could find more, but I think I made my point- Although your claim that formation of army in current form is right now focused on integration of militiamen into its structure (and structure of ministry of interior, let´s not forget about that one) is true, it´s commanders were officers in pre-war army, air force and navy is composed in vast majority, if not solely, of professional soldiers which enlisted also before war to army. Hence we can use them. It is true that post-war phase should use solely post-war sources, however they are scarce and from those several are used. Wether new weapons and from where will they be bought is irrelevant. Royal army was equipped mostly with western arms, after coup it shifted towards Soviet weapons, however it doesn´t change anything. And although I wrote extensively about the issue of NLA, I will once against repeat that it is not any military organization, nor ever was. It is collective name that has been used during war for all militias and defected personell which was, however vastly outnumbered. So there is no need to squeeze two sides of war into the same article, simply leave pro-Gaddafi side with military, while NTC forces with NLA - ie all armed anti-Gaddafi forces. Can´t really see an issue here. That is if you still do not believe that National Liberation Army is current armed forces of Libyan state. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and delete per nom, but move National Liberation Army (Libya) to that page. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and delete and move NLA (Libya) per Kudzu1. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and delete and move per Kudzu. Khazar2 (talk) 19:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
delete and NO moves or merges how are people supposed find information when they are looking for the article "national liberation army" , what do you people claim that the "national liberation army" does not exist anymore or is somehow "irrelevant" , that amouts to WP:ORIGINAL Ocnerosti (talk) 15:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note User:Nyttend's deletion of Libyan Ground Forces, bypassing the AfD process, on the absurd basis that duplication of Wikipedia material on Wikipedia was plagiarism : "(G12: Unambiguous copyright infringement: Unattributed copying of much of Libyan Army (1951–2011))" Anarchangel (talk) 23:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There is absolutely nothing absurd about it. Unattributed copying between Wikipedia articles is a copyright violation under Wikipedia's licensing terms and conditions. See WP:CWW: If material is used without attribution, it violates the licensing terms under which it has been provided, which in turn violates the Reusers' rights and obligations clause of Wikipedia's copyrights policy. Also note that discussion of another deletion is not relevant to this deletion discussion and, if needed to be discussed, should be done at WP:DRV. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.