Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leeds United F.C.–Millwall F.C. rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep‎. Withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Leeds United F.C.–Millwall F.C. rivalry

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Delete. The article exaggerates the relationship between two teams who have played each other only 38 times in the English Football League (EFL). They have never met in either of the FA Cup or the EFL Cup. The only time they met outside of standard league fixtures was in a two-legged playoff semi-final in 2009. The article says this supposed rivalry began in October 2007 when Millwall fans went on the rampage in Leeds. As everyone knows, Millwall fans are notorious for rampage and one incident in Leeds does not automatically create an acknowledged "rivalry".

The only London clubs with which Leeds have had any kind of "rivalry" are Chelsea, Arsenal, and to some extent Spurs. As far as matches against Millwall are concerned, they mean nothing more than a match against the likes of Charlton Athletic, Leyton Orient, QPR, etc.

The teams met twice last season in the EFL Championship and I am not aware of any sources which reported those games in the sense of a rivalry. See the [1] and [2] BBC reports which do not convey any special connection between the clubs—unlike when Liverpool play Manchester United, for example. That is because this supposed rivalry does not exist.

If the article has any use as a head-to-head history of matches played by the two clubs, then it should be renamed and given a fresh perspective to provide a true context. PearlyGigs (talk) 13:28, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. PearlyGigs (talk) 13:28, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 16:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably keep Yep, it's more of a head to head with routine coverage, yes Millwall will always be Millwall and the supporters do tend to get a reputation, however they have had a little bit of a rivalry at times. I am inclined to keep the article, I feel there is enough on there to show what it's is referring too, especially since the rise of hooliganism. And the article is incredibly well sourced. Govvy (talk) 17:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree a lot of work has gone into it, including citations, but the sources are of the head-to-head and routine match coverage variety. There is little if anything in the sources that justifies the presentation of this subject as a keen rivalry which is evident whenever these teams meet. Rivalries are usually derby matches as in Old Firm, Merseyside, Manchester, or North London. For two teams this far apart, we need much more than a couple of hooliganism incidents and one play-off semi-final. Leeds missed promotion last season by losing to Southampton in the playoff final following another defeat by Saints at the end of the league season. On that basis, it could be argued that there is a Leeds/Southampton rivalry. PearlyGigs (talk) 18:29, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Millwall and Leeds managers, and the former Millwall chairman consider it a rivalry, see 1, 2, 3, and 4. The local newspapers for the clubs called it a rivalry, see 1, 2, 3, and 4.

The nominator PearlyGigs claims, "The teams met twice last season in the EFL Championship and I am not aware of any sources which reported those games in the sense of a rivalry." Yet, the second result on Google for a 'Leeds Millwall rivalry' search is a NY Times article written on 17 September 2023, covering the rivalry in depth after the first meeting in the 2023–24 season. I have now added this reference to the wiki, as it gives a great history of why they are rivals.

Leeds rivalry with Millwall is much more current than their rivalry mentioned with Chelsea, which seems to have been defunct since the 1980s. Leeds and Chelsea have played nine times in the last 20 years. Leeds and Millwall have played 30 times over the same period, and their rivalry is far more relevant. There is a Channel 5 tv documentary called CCTV Cities which covers the rivalry from the perspective of West Yorkshire police, who consider Millwall fans the hardest to police because of the rivalry.

PearlyGigs only referenced two random BBC articles and their personal opinion as a reason for deletion of a Wikipedia article. The article is not exagerrated and is well referenced from both sides of Leeds and Millwall. I have added more references too, including quotes from Leeds and Millwall managers.TheLostBoy (talk) 17:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need to make sure that the article has extensive sourcing to verify an assertion (i.e., that there is a rivalry) which was always likely to be challenged.

The choice of the two BBC articles was not random, by the way. BBC match reports are generally high quality, compared with tabloid rubbish, and they do tend to set the scene. If you read any BBC report on a Liv/ManU match, you will soon be aware if you didn't already know that those two teams are playing for bragging rights as well as points. The BBC reports on last season's Leeds/Millwall matches are routine coverage only, no different from the reports of Leeds' matches against Cardiff, QPR, Stoke, whoever. PearlyGigs (talk) 18:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The last two BBC articles on Chelsea vs Leeds makes no mention of a rivalry, 1, 2. Does that mean there isn't one? Heavily policed fixtures with changed kick-off times rarely have incidents now. You ignored the NY Times article on the history of the rivalry by Phil Hay, a local Leeds journalist who covered the club for 18 years.

Also, with your reasoning regarding far apart rivalries, the Brighton & Hove Albion F.C.–Crystal Palace F.C. rivalry should be deleted since the whole article is basically H2H stats with minimal citations on why they are rivals. This article does have extensive sourcing about multple incidents throughout the last 20 years, not just hooliganism or a play-off semi. See Istanbul chant, Saville chant, Ankergren assault. There is more and a ton of stuff online about the rivalry. I'll add when I have time. TheLostBoy (talk) 20:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'll leave it with you. By the way, our "rivalries" with ManU and Chelsea really do belong in the Revie Era. I would always maintain that our greatest rival of those years was Liverpool, but Revie was a close friend of Bill Shankly so it gets downplayed. PearlyGigs (talk) 21:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination withdrawn. Following recent edits, the article now has sufficient sourcing to justify the subject-matter so I'm happy for it to be kept. Could someone please do the necessary case closure? Thank you, TheLostBoy, and let's hope for a good game in November. I think Burnley and Coventry will be the teams to beat this time, and perhaps the Baggies. Best wishes. PearlyGigs (talk) 09:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.