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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Vigorous defense by User:Redhanker, but consensus is that he does not meet the notability guidelines.Kubigula (talk) 04:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Franklin Lamb

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Franklin Lamb (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Apparently non-notable political activist. Has clearly written various stuff, but has much been written about *him*? bobrayner (talk) 16:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per my previous prod. The deprodder said they were going to improve the article, but this has not happened and I don't think it's possible given the lack of coverage he has received. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. —Tom Morris (talk) 17:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Lamb is one of the more prolific authors on mideast issues and news sites as mentioned in the article and by any web search, generally supporting Palestine rights. He is also a book author and associated with a number of peace organizations as also listed. The only reason being given for deletion is that he is "not notable". Can an activist who is so widely published and broadcast not be notable if Russia Today and Press TV, both supported by governments, think he is notable enough to have him as an expert and guest?
    • Al Manar (Lebanon TV)
    • Americans Concerned for Middle East Peace
    • Counterpunch.org
    • Veterans Today
    • islamtimes.org
    • middle-east-online.com
    • Pacific Free Press
    • Palestine Civil Rights Campaign
    • PressTV (Iran TV)
    • RamallahOnline
    • Russia Today

These are only a few of the outlets on which Lamb is posted or broadcast. Redhanker (talk) 21:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is defined on Wikipedia as being the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. There are no sources covering the subject of the article. Further, the requirements for articles on living people are much more stringent. We cant have an article that does not have a single third party secondary source covering the subject of the article. nableezy - 21:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I like Mr. Lamb, I read his work regularly. But he has not been the subject of any third party reliable sources and as such there should not be an article about him. This article fails both WP:N and WP:BLP. nableezy - 21:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of coverage of his being shot in Libya, I've added it to the articleRedhanker (talk) 01:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As stated above, he has been published by a huge number of independent news outlets, and covered by many news outlets, as well as being call on as notable expert by Russia Today and PressTV which are both supported by governments. Is that not exceptional? Lamb is not some self-published author or blogger. Redhanker (talk) 01:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

" He seems to be a leading advocate for palestine rights given the huge number of outlets that publish his articles (independent of the subject). I find it beyond belief that someone who is called on to be an expert on the topic of Middle East politics by none less than Russia Today (one of the most popular youtube news channels) and Iran's Press TV is "not notable", or that he's not notable because he appears on news sites that often carry controversial theories not covered by mainstream "reliable" media. He is notable and people seek information on him because he expounds such controversial viewpoints (he has called the Libyan democracy fighters "terrorists"), or that acts as one of the strongest western advocates for human rights groups such as Hezbollah, and Wikipedia serves a much broader audience than Lambs usual independent media outlets. Redhanker (talk) 00:57, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Intel Hub
Intel Hub calls him a "prominent activist": The Palestine Civil Rights Campaign-Lebanon confirms reports that Franklin Lamb was shot at approximately 11:45 a.m. on Sunday August 21 in Tripoli, Libya outside of the Corinthia Hotel where he has been staying. A search shows this event has been covered by at least Uprooted Palestinians, dandelionsalad.wordpress.com, whatreallyhappened.org, prisonplanet.com, www.scoop.co.nz,www.activistpost.com,truthiscontagious.com, www.wat.tv, www.infowars.com, www.salem-news.com so at least these blogs and newsites consider Lamb to be worth noting.Redhanker (talk) 01:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many of those sites are happy to repeat Lamb's words because his words agree with their editorial line. Simply agreeing with Press TV's stance on some aspect of middle-eastern politics does not make a person notable. Come on - infowars? Prison Planet? Anybody who believes in Bilderberg or the New World Order conspiracy theories, and who can string together a coherent paragraph, can get a mention by sites like that. That's a very low bar - much lower than the notability guideline. One might as well argue that parents of some "vaccine damaged" kid are notable cos their words are repeated on a hundred different alt-med sites. bobrayner (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Franklin is notable, along with Russia Today and PressTV and Counterpunch precisely because he his information may be unreliable as one of the more prolific apologists for Hezbollah and the Gaddafi regime. Articles on persons with apparent ties to organizations considered by some governments to be "terrorists" are routinely callled for deletion on the dubious basis of notability even when covered by the mainstream press. The conspiracy-oriented press has a great amount of influence and popularity, certain by the number of hits any search of "Franklin Lamb" will attest, and many demonstrably unreliable conspiracy theories are covered on Wikipedia as long as the sources are notable, if not neccesarily reliable as even known propoganda channels, as many have called Russia Today are notable, as are most of their guest experts. Deleting this article makes it difficult for people to do unbiased research on this person and his controversial views. The notability guideline clearly is meant for the self-published, not people widely published on hundreds of conspiracy and antiwar oriented outlets and blogs with thousands of published articles and state-supported media outlets. The "alternative" media is full of notable persons who escape scrutiny precisely because they have been avoided by mainstream outlets such as CNN and the New York Times. I am advocating keeping this article precisely because I believe his views (and those of the outlets who promote him) deserve more critical scrutiny rather than hidden from public view. Redhanker (talk) 14:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    In what way do "controversial views" or "avoided by mainstream outlets" exempt a subject from wikipedia's notability guidelines? bobrayner (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (t) (c) 23:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material". Nothing here that requires the person appear on a western mainstream news network to be noteable. As mentioned above, the shooting of Lamb as well as his on-the-spot coverage of Libya conflict is the actual biographical subject of articles in Uprooted Palestinians, dandelionsalad.wordpress.com, whatreallyhappened.org, prisonplanet.com, www.scoop.co.nz,www.activistpost.com,truthiscontagious.com, www.wat.tv, www.infowars.com, www.salem-news.com Is there anything in the guidelines that contributions to alternative media, no matter how extensive, are not notable? Surely the notability guidelines do not call for deletion of a person so notable that he is relied upon to be a topic expert by state supported Russia Today and PressTV (Iran) internet television media. His biography listed on a number of the websites and magazines that list him as an official contributor. Is it neccesary for notability only to be a contributor of a western new network such as ABC or Fox, which are sometimes called propoganda outlets as well? The notability guidelinews is clearly for someone who is literally unheard of besides self-publishing and self promotion, not someone whose articles are republished on dozens of websites and blogs and is consistently represented on more than one top-rated internet news channel as a topic expertRedhanker (talk) 04:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here here is interviewed by another party, including a short biography;. There is nothing to indicate this is an unreliable source, or that this person has not made enough public contributions to be notable. Perhaps the real reason for deleting the topic is because of controversy over his views? As long as coverage is a neutral point of view, there should be no call to delete the topicRedhanker (talk)

intifada-palestine.com ISRAEL WILL NOT COLLAPSE PEACEFULLY BUT IT WILL DISSOLVE: DR. FRANKLIN LAMB Interview by Kourosh Ziabari Dr. Franklin Lamb is Director of the Americans Concerned for Middle East Peace, Beirut-Washington DC, Board Member of The Sabra Shatila Foundation, and a volunteer with the Palestine Civil Rights Campaign, Lebanon. He is the author of “The Price We Pay: A Quarter-Century of Israel’s Use of American Weapons Against Civilians in Lebanon” and is doing research in Lebanon for his next book. Lamb has been a Professor of International Law at Northwestern College of Law in Oregon. He earned his Law Degree at Boston University and his LLM, M.Phil, and PhD degrees at the London School of Economics. As a Middle East expert and commentator, Dr. Lamb has appeared on Press TV, Al-Manar and several other media outlets. His articles and analyses have been published by Counter Punch, Veterans Today, Intifada Palestine, Electronic Intifada, Opinion Maker, Dissident Voice, Daily Star and Al Ahram. Dr. Lamb generously accepted my interview requested and joined me to discuss the recent developments in the Middle East including the Libya civil war, Bahrain massacre and Egypt’s revolution. What follows is the complete text of my interview with Dr. Franklin Lamb, political commentator, university professor and Middle East expert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhanker (talk • contribs) 04:30, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, intifada-palestine.com is an advocacy website and accordingly does not qualify as a reliable, independent source for the purposes of establishing notability here on Wikipedia. The brief biographical sketch is used as an introduction to a much longer article by Lamb himself, and therefore would not be acceptable for establishing notability even if the article in question was published by a reliable source rather than an advocacy website.Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note I'm posting here that I was CANVASSED at my talk page to opine here. My opinion is that I am not familiar with the topic, but question the methods involved in bringing it to my attention. Jclemens (talk) 05:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry to bother, but I had noticed that were able to help out AFDs when it was claim that a subject that was the subject of sigificant news coverage was "not notable". This subject is prolific contributor across many news sources, including state supported television networks, and has been the subject of coverage himself as the vicim of a shooting, yet it is claimed this subject is "not notable" because he is mostly covered by non-mainstream sources. Is this an appropriate usage of notability to justify deletion of an article? Redhanker (talk) 04:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even if his being shot was extensively covered, the article would still fail under WP:BLP1E. Being a contributor, prolific or otherwise, to various media sources, be they mainstream or not, is not the criteria for inclusion. The problem with articles based entirely on the person's own writings is that we end up with an article with little to no actual biographical information and only a collection of quotes that a Wikipedia editor thinks is important. That isnt an encyclopedia article. Unless there are sources actually about Lamb there should not be an article here on Lamb. nableezy - 04:58, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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