Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dromayor

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Even without bolded opinions, the source analysis is compelling. Considered putting into draft but the editor working on it (who I suspect has a COI) appears to be determined that we will retain our content and this came out of draft before it was ready earlier. Spartaz ^Humbug! 07:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dromayor

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Fails WP:ORGCRIT. Mostly the work of two editors who appear to have a close connection with the subject, adding information that can't be found in any of the sources. The organization had a few drugstores, but their principal business was as a distribution company behind the scenes, and I don't believe that there is enough significant independent coverage to demonstrate notability. Most of the history of the company is sourced to this article in El Tiempo newspaper [1], but I became suspicious when I found two other articles on the company in the same newspaper from the same date [2] and [3]. Sure enough, they all contain the phrases "nuestro fundador" ("our founder"), "nuestros clientes" ("our clients"), "nuestro personal" ("our personnel")... so these are nothing more than a series of paid-for advertisements taken out by the company itself, and therefore not independent. The other El Tiempo source is identical in wording to one of the Portfolio sources, down to the title, and is obviously a press release from the company regarding a potential 2008 takeover which never happened (and the statement in the article that it was due to the economic crisis is not corroborated by any of the sources). The other Portfolio sources and the Dinero source only mention the company in passing regarding its sell-off in 2014. Most of the detailed information comes from the newsletter of the founder's local chamber of commerce, which apart from not being a reliable source, is simply doing its job in promoting local business and businessmen. In short, the only detail in the article comes from the company itself or the local chamber of commerce, and there is nothing more than passing mentions in independent sources. Richard3120 (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Colombia-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There appear to be plenty of references, only two from El Tiempo, and it appears to have been a significant organisation. As it is closed there are no issues about this being promotional. Not surprising that when a newspaper runs an article about a company the company takes adverts in the paper. Nor is it surprising that the local chamber of commerce is a substantial source. Rathfelder (talk) 11:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The newspaper didn't run an article about the company though - there are only the adverts that the company placed, and nothing else. Richard3120 (talk) 13:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I dont believe the article in el tiempo was a paid for ad. It was spurced from a chilean newspaper who called and interviewed the founder of dromayor. The colombian papers got it from a chilean newspaper. Although the original source was taken down. Also the chamber of commerce has a newletter and awards recognition to significant businesess. It doesnt do that for anyone. The company infact doesnt exist anymore and is an important part of the history of the farmaceutical industry of the company. A few dates and details may be off but that can be fixed. There is more sources in print but as far as i can tell wikipedia only takes online sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editelefant (talk • contribs) 14:32, 30 September 2020 (UTC) Country* — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editelefant (talk • contribs) 14:35, 30 September 2020 (UTC) — Editelefant (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

@Editelefant: I don't believe this is an interview with the founder - firstly, he wouldn't refer to himself as "our founder", which the article does, and even if it is an interview, that's also a problem because it's a primary source which means it's not independent. Secondly, there isn't a single quotation in the whole article, which would be very unusual for an interview. However, print sources are completely acceptable on Wikipedia, providing that the sources are reliable and that you source them properly (title, name of source, date, and author and page number if possible). Richard3120 (talk) 14:58, 30 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Hi Richard. The interview was paraphrased into an article. It was more of a fact check call as i have investigated. I will add print sources. Best regards.

Also it is very important to note that the article does not say "our founder" you are probably reading a raw translation as the source is in spanish.

The article from portafolio clearly refetences the original source in the chilean newspaper. And does provide several quotations. They are just not using the "" symbols. Please read all the sources mpre carefully you will see that the scope of the company was large. Covering from its own 250 to 275 drugstores at any given time. Not few. To a wide network of independent farmacies, between 10,000 to 20,000 at any given time.

Please read carefully and you will se the stpry emerges that dromayor was a large referanceable conglomerate. Also operating licour distribution. Also having a stake in a soccet team. And also contributing to large construction projects.

Best regards

The sources in print are even more ample as i have researched but kept the article tp what was available online.

Given time and a consensus on this article will provide a basis to over some years to add more and more references and mapping the evolution of the farmaceutical company duting the second half of the 20th century. Its comparable to wikipedia editors suddenly saying for example that merck or pfizer or wallgreens are not referenceable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editelefant (talk • contribs) 16:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Editelefant: "it is very important to note that the article does not say "our founder" – sorry, but that's not true... that's EXACTLY what it says in the second paragraph: "La vida de nuestro fundador...". So even if this was paraphrased from a Chilean newspaper, this wasn't written by journalists at El Tiempo, it was written by Dromayor and they paid to have it published in the newspaper.

My point is that almost all the information in the article has been provided by Dromayor itself – the El Tiempo article was written by Dromayor, the other article in El Tiempo [4] and this article in Portfolio [5] must be press releases issued by Dromayor because they are identical, and they also say that the company's founder gave the information to Estrategia, so it isn't independent. All the other sources apart from the newsletter of Pereira's chamber of commerce are literally no more than one-line passing mentions. I have read everything carefully as you said, and I am not disputing the figures about the number of outlets or annual sales... my point is that I have been looking at this article for a month, and I still can't see any detailed information that doesn't come from the company itself. I don't believe that your comparison with Pfizer or Walmart is valid, because there are literally hundreds or thousands of independent articles about them in newspapers and magazines all over the world, that have not been written by the company.

Saying "keep the article and let other editors add sources over time" is not a valid basis for keeping the article... the reliable independent sources need to be there in the first place, we don't keep articles on the basis that they can eventually become notable. Richard3120 (talk) 17:05, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just added more sources. University thesis from two separate universities on dromayor. Also the article of the founder is in a draft to be moved to main space. Please feel free to edit facts or numbers that may be off. Or dates as well. So that a concensus can be reached. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editelefant (talk • contribs) 23:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC) You may be right about one article wich is similar to another one being a press release regarding the "our" this and "our" that concern but theres 12 other sources. The article in the chamber of commerce magazine is defenetely an independent substantial source. And i added others also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editelefant (talk • contribs) 23:17, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:59, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have to say that the article you have now created for the firm's founder, Héctor Villa Osorio, is essentially just a duplication of this article, and if this article survives, I think they should be merged – Mr Villa Osorio really has no notability outside of founding this company. Richard3120 (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

two completely separate articles dear richard. Mr Villa has also notable work in the real estate and licour industries. also founding several organizations and being on the Board of directors of fenalco, the largest NGO for bussiness in colombia. Best Regards. and im sure you meant that when this articles discussion is closed then you can move on to other subjects you have more knowledge on. also more sources comming, right now the libraries are closed due to covid but already gatthering printed sources to list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Editelefant (talk • contribs) 20:46, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the patronising comment, but I'm not convinced at all about the separate notability, I'm afraid. I'll wait and see what you are able to add from print sources. Richard3120 (talk) 21:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Needs more input
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It should be notable, but an examination of the references are very poor. There is two references of the eight should be in the Héctor Villa Osorio which I redirected as there was no references worth looking at, for a BLP. I think as a public pharma employing 4000 folk it should be notable, but unfortunately the references are very poor, and they WP:SIRS and WP:ORGCRIT. It should be draftified. I think there is sufficient coverage for the Héctor Villa Osorio article to be restored. scope_creep^Talk 10:57, 23 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: as you probably noted scope_creep, the editor reverted your redirect... they also decided to unilaterally remove the AfD tags on the article and close the discussion themselves. Richard3120 (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.