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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Article hasn't been touched during the last week when Arielmoonchild33 promised to improve it. Will userfy on request. Stifle (talk) 10:57, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alfred (Freddy) Krupa

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Alfred (Freddy) Krupa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Sources used do not support family background or biographic facts. This is not a notable person. Main editors are Arielmoonchild33 and Volvo144deluxe. One is likely the sock puppet of the other and the article's subject/agent. Please see their edit histories for ongoing creation of article variants. RebekahThorn (talk) 09:35, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DO NOT DELETE ARTICLE Sources do support family background and biographic facts. This is a notable person and family. Arielmoonchild33 (talk) 16:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE this is not a notable person. This person is trying to gain the notability he lacks using Wikipedia for his private purposes. The events cited to support his notability are not notable at all. Erymata (talk) 17:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC) — Erymata (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

  • Delete "This institution verified that prof. Alfred Freddy Krupa de Tarnawa is descended from the Ashina of Khazaria Royal Clan in an unbroken male line" - here we go again (more royal descendants...). I might get into trouble for saying that since he is "the administrator of the Ashina of Khazaria DNA Project at Family Tree DNA" they probably would. Then again, I mightn't. Two other articles related to this subject have very recently been speedied and I wouldn't disagree with the same happening here. His grandfather seems to have possibly been of note - enough to have a street named for him (although here in the UK that often happens to people who served on the local town council for 20 or 30 years without getting kicked off - and never doing anything much except turn up for meetings). However, the notability of his ancestors is irrelevant. I can't (well, I might be able to considering this) check out the Croat and Serb references, but here's one in English: "In 1995, Alfred Freddy Krupa graduated with a Master of Fine Arts in Painting at the Academy of Fine Arts in Zagreb, Croatia.[13]" And what is reference 13? It's www.visit-croatia.co.uk/zagreb/ which is fine if you are thinking of visiting Zagreb, but says absolutely nothing about Krupa. References are supposed to back up the claims in the article, not give a tourist guide to a city. Another is to the English home page for the Tokyo Gakugei University. Are Krupa and his scholarship mentioned? Well, what do you expect? Ancestor Hunt is another. That's one of those places where you can find a coat of arms for your surname. They do say "Just select a surname to view a coat of arms but please remember, coats of arms are for fun and most family coat of arms were assigned to THAT one particular family, not a surname in general", which is more than some such sites do and I give them credit for that. A-K finishes with Krohn. (De Tarnawa isn't there either, so I can't see the point of this reference at all.) Oh, wait... It's about the municipality of Kamanje - but that site doesn't appear to list municipalities. The Portaloko reference appears (it is in Croat) to be about Juraj Baldani. Then we have an advertising site for Zürich, and finally one at www.karlovacdanas.com in what could be Croat that does mention him as administrator of iGENEA. I hope that someone will analyse the Croat based sites, to save me having to wade in. Good luck... Peridon (talk) 18:21, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To correct the above, the karlovacdanas article does refer to the alleged descent from the Ashina dynasty, but I can't say how reliable this site is. Nor can I say how notable can be descent from a dynasty of a land that was conquered in the 960s CE (by Sviatoslav I of Kiev. Peridon (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The karlovacdanas site seems to have articles like "Scientifically proven: a love affair with the parent assists in his career!." --RebekahThorn (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just out of curiosity, how can they tell that he is descended in an unbroken male line? By records, maybe - but by DNA I doubt it. Anyway, how could they tell that the males were all offspring of legitimate unions even if the DNA chain worked? And how many other people might be in the same position too? Peridon (talk) 23:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well as you ask, in genetic genealogy it is recommended that you test multiple cousins who share the lineage. For example, if you think you are the direct descendant of Dirk Gently then you test, but you also test 4th, 7th, and 10th cousins who also should descend from Dirk Gently. The prof is in both the genealogical records and the DNA test. Without genealogical records? Pah. One could prove that Alfred Krupa, Sr. and Alfred Krupa, Jr. were related by testing one of AK,Jr's 1st cousins. --RebekahThorn (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From what I read in that article, one can determine shared ancestry (and from reading elsewhere have found that surname and ancestry don't always match, even with Kohens...), but can one say specifically who the ancestor was? For example, someone might be shown to share ancestry with a group, as with the Phoenician ancestry in Malta, but can one be shown to descend from a dynasty from a thousand years ago rather than just from the Khazar people that they ruled and presumably were a part of (Khazars being a Turkic tribe in origin - how distinct were they genetically as opposed to politically and, for part of their history, religiously? (I must confess an interest here - I have a character who can recognise his descendants after hundreds of generations, and I've just seen a way for him to be able to do it. Wouldn't work for normal people, though...) Peridon (talk) 10:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Important To Read I feel that I must put this answer here because I don't know where else to put it. Sources do support family background and biographic facts. This is a notable person and family that is under attack. I see that Rebekeh Thorn has led this attack against the Krupa family and that you Thorn say that you are concerned and that a group of you want to take anything about the Krupa's off of Wikipedia. Why are you out for blood? Why are you so angry? Folks, it seems that she has a motive for deleting these articles. Why does Rebekah Thorn have the right to get anything deleted. She is just a person out there with an opinion. Thorn take your stuff out of your sandbox and stop directing people to read it. Stand up and verify what you have written. Are you afraid that the Krupa articles will diminish your own? Thorn, I put the challange out to you to take your own article and put it up for review. It has been in the sandbox since 2006 I believe. Thorn has deliberatly gone after this article and any with the name Krupa. She has succeeded by using her own contacts and devices in the other two articles. Rebekah Thorn, I am not a sock puppet for anyone. I am supposed to have the time I need to rewrite, but that chance was not given to me. You had my articles deleted and now you are trying again. This woman is going to get away with having another verified and documented article deleted, if she is not stopped. If she succeeds, this is censorship. Wikipedia people, don't let this happen. And Peridon you stated "I've found a quite good way of getting rid of them is by demolishing their case - I've made a start at the AfD. Peridon (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2011 (UTC) Censorship is not what it is all about and who made both of you God and any of your group (according to you Thorn there is a group of you) so what chance does this article have or any other with the name Krupa in it to stay up. Thank you Thorn and anyone else coming forth and destroying freedom - (you are making a mockery of Wikipedia - everyone can write an article - right - welcome to the new controlled razor shark infested waters of non-freedom writing - and intolerance and prejudice. Hats off to the know it alls and I hope I broke every rule in the book because according to you Thorn you are out to take down anything regarding Krupa and that is just wrong. Arielmoonchild33 (talk) 06:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sources do support family background and biographic facts. This is a notable person and family. Bring back what Wikipedia is supposed to be.

Arielmoonchild33 (talk) 06:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment My remark about 'getting rid' was in connection with the continual reposting of articles that did not fit Wikipedia's standards. "you are making a mockery of Wikipedia - everyone can write an article" - yes, everyone can so long as it fits with Wikipedia's standards. I do not consider that this one does. I have never come across RebekahThorn before this, but I have just viewed her contributions and there has only been one other case of her contributing at AfD - and that was to vote Keep. "This woman is going to get away with having another verified and documented article deleted, if she is not stopped." Can you quote evidence of this career of deletionism? Verified? By whom? Documented? Unless the rest of the Croat documents are better than the English ones, no. If you want to enable people to gain more info on Zagreb, you put double square brackets around the name, and that links to the Wikipedia article. You don't put in a reference to a tourist site and leave the main claim in the sentence unreferenced. As to references - one of the references concerning Baldani does mention a Krupa. This is most certainly Alfred Krupa the elder, on whom he wrote in 1985 - ten years before the current subject "graduated with a Master of Fine Arts in Painting". The article does not say that he was a noted child prodigy, so I feel safe in assuming it to be the grandfather. I also feel that the grandfather might be notable enough for an article. Peridon (talk) 11:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Acknowledgement One of the other nominations is mine. I think though the objection is to my long history of tracking IP address edits to articles and revising as appropriate. It makes it gosh darn hard for the legions to change text to fit their pundits. --RebekahThorn (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Offer If the art and Croatian experts think that Alfred Krupa, Sr. is notable enough for an article, I would be more than happy to edit a basic stub with valid sources. I would doubtless put it on my watch list and trim out anything that was unsourced or did not pertain to the life and art of Alfred Krupa, Sr. --RebekahThorn (talk) 17:45, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dusti*poke* 02:22, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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