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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep, even when the meatpuppet/SPA posts are ignored. --MCB 04:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Achaia Football Clubs Association

[edit]

Delete: Since it is an amature league of a district, lower than greek fourth division, I think this is unimportant article for everyone. KRBN 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep: No more, nor less notable than leagues in English football league system (more than 20 levels) or Championnat de France Amateurs 2 (level 5 in France). --FocalPoint 13:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a significant number of articles in Wikipedia on amateur, athletic unions operating on other than national level. Not one.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Rediculus to keep such a league of a village.--Moutalos 18:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Achaia is not a village, it is a prefecture (the 5th in population among Greek prefectures with 322.789 inhabitants at the 2001 census) - Compare Achaia Football Clubs Association with Comité de Football des Îles du Nord of Saint Martin, 33.102 inhabitants, a Comité no less no more notable.--FocalPoint 08:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To administrators: Please note that Moutalos (talk · contribs) and Agelada (talk · contribs) cannot count as a voting user. If you can, you may compare his their server address with the server address of KRBN (talk · contribs)
Comment This is NOT a vote, administrators decide based on arguments --The Way 06:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted words, in agreement with the comment of The Way--FocalPoint 08:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: If we include amateur leagues from the English football league system how can we disregard the amateur leagues of the current European Champions? I think these leagues of both countries should be preserved. Georgeg 15:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I couldn’t agree with you more. So, if you’d spent a second to actually follow the link provided (on the English football league system) you would have quickly found out that in fact there are dozens of such amateur minor leagues listed there, not just the one cited. Do you really want me to list them all here?! There’d be no space for anything else! (Or tell me, are dozens of other similar (some would argue even less important) articles not a precedent for this one to exist?) Georgeg 01:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep:--Tony esopi patra 17:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]

  • "The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments" - please provide a reason, or the closing admin will discount your input.
The input provided by this simple signature indicates that apart from the population of Achaia of 322.789 represented for football purposes by Achaia Football Clubs Association, there are also Wikipedia real users and contributors who care about this article.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: --Nakos2208 18:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments" - please provide a reason, or the closing admin will discount your input.
The input provided by this simple signature indicates that apart from the population of Achaia of 322.789 represented for football purposes by Achaia Football Clubs Association, there are also Wikipedia real users and contributors who care about this article.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: This article is in between wikipedia's perspectives --Kalogeropoulos 18:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: for the reasons User:FocalPoint gives--Archidamus 18:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC) (I saw now it's not a vote, so I can participate)--Archidamus 16:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: This is very much so relevant.

Keep: Agree with FocalPoint. Not less notable than other existing articles about amateur football clubs or leagues. --Dada 19:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When improved and expanded, the article will contain information about the association and will be verifiable and neutral. Can you quote one key policy that is being violated? The only argument for it's deletion is notability and it is not always so trivial to decide what is important or not. Why should we consider the Bristol Downs Football League article more notable? According to your arguments, only 400,000 people who live there would care about it. And why is Devon and Exeter Football League more important? Note that this article is very much just a list. And what do you think about Stroud and District League? The same arguments you use here apply to all these articles and if you honestly think that Achaia Football Clubs Association is non notable, then IMHO you should seriously reconsider the status of the other articles I mentioned. --Dada 09:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: This is the kind of knowledge you can't find anywhere else. It's information that can be proved useful in many ways especially historically. Like it wastes server space or something???? --Alexignatiou 21:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please quote which Wikipedia policy indicates it is worthy of inclusion, rather than your own personal opinion on the article.
  • Delete Article is a list of champions of this minor league. It had little to no effect on Greek football in general and has done nothing notable by itself to warrant an article. T REXspeak 01:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Article isn't even what it purports to be, as Dinosaur noted it's basically an incomplete list of chamions associated with the league. Not informative at all, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate place for information. --The Way 06:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Keep, but RewriteI've changed my mind regarding this. The article is no less relevant than other football clubs that have articles and we always must work to fight systemic bias, so it should stay. However, the format it is currently in is terrible; its still just a list of champions with almost no prose. The lists need to be cut down or removed and the article needs to be modeled after other football club articles; it needs to consist mostly in prose. --The Way 09:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is it just me, or is there something up with some of the people voting for keep? None are applying the normal format (with an asterik) and many offer no arguments... --The Way 06:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note on comment: Many = 2 . Is it just me, or is there something up with NewMathematics as taught by The Way?--FocalPoint 08:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It is interesting to go to see User talk:Georgeg because really it is suprizing for those who don't know why there are so many Greeks.

--KRBN 17:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Take a look at:

--KRBN 17:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC

Well this is really funny coming from you who wrote "you could help and bring more people to vote DELETE" in User_talk:The_Way? --Dada 10:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If i am not mistaken, anyone with 50+ edits has the right to vote, so comments on the ethnicity of the people who vote are really irrelevant. Besides, it is only natural for Greeks to vote, since they know better what the article is about. The only reason for deletion is it's notability (certainly the content needs serious improvement too but this is not our issue here), however the basic argument against it is that there already exist similar articles about amateur or very low-level clubs/leagues. Please let people decide without commenting on or attacking the voters and if any vote is illegal then it simply won't be counted. --Dada 14:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Some people should get a life. Who would you expect to have an opinion on an article about greek amateur football, Hungarian housewives or Chinese schoolkids? What's wrong with greek Wikipedians voting with arguments (right or wrong, doesn't matter) on the deletion of a Greece-related article? User:Daniel.Bryant, I think you should have stayed longer on your vacation, you would have done us all a favour if you came back sometime in late 2008. Sockpuppetry is a quite serious accusation. If that's your way of discussing, be my guest, I don't get easily insulted by such know-it-alls, but having to take the time to answer to such nonsense can be a nuisance--Archidamus 14:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Maybe you should read what I wrote - there's a difference between meatpuppets and sockpuppets. If you don't stop, it'll be you who won't be coming back to Wikipedia for a while - I'm not sure about the Greek Wiki, where all the meatpuppets came from, but on the English Wiki we strongly enforce a high level of civility. What you said could also be deemed a personal attack, and I will have no qualms in having you blocked if you keep it up. Consider this your final warning. Daniel.Bryant 22:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Edit conflict, but please stay civil. T REXspeak 22:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Meatpuppets: "A related issue occurs when multiple individuals create brand new accounts specifically to participate in, or influence, a particular vote or area of discussion" You have actually openly accused us of having created our accounts to vote for this article. In my eyes this is quite uncivil and defamatory, especially in the way did it (generalising, no specific names mentioned, addressing all users). If you are so addicted to such behaviour that you can't see its insulting nature, what can I say, you could reconsider your debate tactics. User:Dinosaur puppy thank you for your timely concern on the civility of the discussion. It seems our definitions of civility don't overlap--Archidamus 05:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Please check if the users, whom Daniel personally attacks are meatpuppets. Then check the few entries of Moutalos (talk · contribs) and Agelada (talk · contribs), in comparison with entries by KRBN (talk · contribs). Then please take the appropriate action, by tagging them etc.--FocalPoint 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It is so unimportant article. It has to do with a minor amature league of a district, even lower than Greek Fourth Division, where teams play in very bad stadium, and the teams are so weak. It does really not affect Greek football and I doubt even if that could be in a Greek encyclopedia (except wikipedia). So unimportant that doesn't cause the interest even of Greek fans and media. Nobody in the world will care about such an article. If such an article is accepted, I wonder what is not in wikipedia.

Also as we saw, so unimportant it is that ONLY GREEKS SUPPORT IT. The fact that is not accepted by the rest of the world, speaks everything. If Greeks want it so much, why they don't write it for their own in Greek wikipedia and want it here where nobody wants it, except them? Their opinion I think is too subjective. One proof of that that some of them called everyone who is Greek to save the article. One thing that proves the aim of them is that they called me anti-Greek because I proposed it for deletion. Their goal is pariotic rather than helping contribution in wikipedia.

Comment: This is totally different. It is not a case of self promotion and no one will gain anything if the article stays. It is about an association of football clubs, member of the Hellenic Football Federation and their amateur league. --Dada 10:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Whoa now, this is beginning to take on a somewhat racist tone. Wikipedia is actively working to promote systemic bias which means we should include things important to different countries, not only things important to the US and UK. KRBN, please tone down this inappropriate rhetoric. The problem with the article is NOT that it's Greek, rather its that it's merely a list and the title misrepresents whats located within. If the article was changed to fit the format of the British football clubs, for example, I'd support keeping it. --The Way 07:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep: (with some modifications, to keep everyone happy!)
  1. if amateur leagues are to have a presence at all on Wikipedia this league has a record of representing Greece in the UEFA_Regions_Cup (this is UEFA's top amateur competition and only one team composed of players from one amateur domestic league can qualify - Achaia won the Greek spot by eliminating the collective team of other amateur Greek leagues) in 2005. ([1]). There are leagues in the English football league system that have not achieved this but have been accepted. There has been a similar discussion on English low level teams here: [[2]]
  2. the league itself has been around for nearly 80 years, and teams such as Panachaiki who have won this league several times in the past have moved on and played in Greece’s A1 Ethniki, contributing players to the national team (hence the league has an element of historical significance too)
However, I think individual teams within this league should not necessarily have their own wiki entry (ie just for having participated in the league itself), unless of course they have demonstrated other notability criteria (like Panachaiki). So I propose that the red links should be deleted.
I also agree with User:The Way’s comment in that the format could be changed to resemble that of the English football league system. Finally it would be nice if the article contained more information, but judging by the interest this discussion has generated, that should hopefully come pretty soon! StephP 12:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To my surprise, this process is working. I have already put in the information that StephP has taken the trouble to find (and some more). I understand StephP's desire to remove links, I would not get into the trouble. In my opinion red links are OK, even if they should better stay red for a very very very long time (no objection there). I understand the impression of The Way's of the long list. It is a bit boring, but it is the FCA's history: The scope of playing is winning, winners should be noted (rather than a factual but ultraboring list of all teams participating in the FCA). It also shows Panachaiki's history (an FC of national level Greek football). And...yes...the article was really ugly, but this was a question of notability as pointed out by several wikipedians who participated in this discussion, not a beauty contest.--FocalPoint 20:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On a personal note, I owe an honest thank you to the original author of the article, Tony esopi patra as well as KRBN: Despite the latter's poor arguments, bad manners, questionable practices and serious misunderstanding of wikipedia's actual and desired content, during this discussion I have learned better the deletion process, the term meatpuppet, that trawling for votes/opinions can be seen as spam or vandalism and I have identified the process for reporting editing abuse (Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets). I might even try it too.--FocalPoint 20:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: i totally agree with focal point and with tony esopi.I also believe that the article is very useful and necessary for wikipedia.--SAPIOPIS 15:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Note to admins: user SAPIOPIS (talk · contribs) has only 2 contributions and all of them here. Note to participating users: please try not to engage in personal comments and counting of who's opinion attracts the more sockpuppets. This is a matter of the administrators. Try to argue on a factual basis about the article. --150.140.215.24 16:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I cannot understand why it should be so complicated. Some people can find information in this article. This information is difficult to be found anywhere else on the internet and will definitely be useful to some (not only for people living in Greece). --CeeKay 17:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: League has been around for over 80 years, has had some notable teams playing it and represents a fairly large amount of players and teams. Furthermore, it probably has a fairly large amount of fans who watch this league, even if just a couple of hundred fans from each team watch these matches it all adds up. Englishrose 18:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

— Possible single purpose account: Billy i.e.The Billster (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

  • Keep WP not paper. Article non-controversial, not that bad, why shouldn't we just let it be? •NikoSilver• 23:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, being an amateur league does not automatically mean it's "not notable" (if it did, we'd delete every Olympic Games and Rugby Union article from the first half of the 20th century). The UEFA Regions' Cup competition is notable, in my opinion. Demiurge 00:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep In the 1950s, this tournament was of a high enough standard to give its champions a chance to qualify for the national championship of Greece. [3] Fairly vital part of football history in a region of a population with 320,000. Sam Vimes | Address me 17:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Articles about league structures and histories, be they below professional leagues, are considerred notable in most countries so I see no reason why Greece should be any different. Furthermore, the article has quite a decent amount of decent encyclopedic content in it so I believe that is should remain. -- MLD · T · C · @:  14:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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