Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023 German Darts Grand Prix

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ignoring the "keep" !votes that boil down to OTHERSTUFF, which is not a policy-based rationale, I find a consensus to delete. Randykitty (talk) 11:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 German Darts Grand Prix

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Was redirected, since it has an utter lack of independent sourcing, but that was reverted. Would have draftified, but that would have been tantamount to a backdoor deletion since the creator of the article has been banned from editing Darts articles, in part for creating articles like this. Searches did not turn up enough in-depth coverage to pass WP:GNG. A redirect was appropriate until perhaps the tournament began to be played, but as with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 PDC Players Championship series, that might not happen. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:25, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, Sports, and Germany. Shellwood (talk) 14:32, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge I don't find that these Tour events have indepedent notability (see list below for this season), but maybe a master article covering the events for the year would be notable (I think the PDC Tour in of itself is notable per year). I recommend merge and redirecting info into a 2023 PDC European Tour article, or simply into the 2023 PDC Pro Tour article for:

Baltic Sea Darts Open
European Darts Open
International Darts Open
German Darts Grand Prix and any additional articles that make up this list, unless someone can show an individual event is independently notable. We've done such things in snooker articles, see 2019–20 Challenge Tour where we merged the individual events into one well written article. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I don't see how this article is any different from any of the other articles about European Tour events that have been created over the years. The event is only three weeks away so deleting it, only to recreate it once the event has happened seems utterly pointless. Dergraaf (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do any of those other articles meet WP:GNG though? Bit pointless saying that we should retain an article based on other articles that also aren't independently notable. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:02, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per Dergraaf.KatoKungLee (talk) 19:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that neither of the above keep !votes are based in policy.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 01:10, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And KatoKungLee has also been blocked as a WP:SOCK, so their votes should be ignored as per WP:DENY. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- They have been unblocked, so their votes are valid.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete no evidence this event passes WP:GNG, as all coverage is primary and/or trivial. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:02, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - As far as I know, the eurotour events are shown on national TV of the country where they take place, local and global media write about them. There is also news in the Baltics and Scandinavia about ongoing qualifiers in the PDC-NB zone or about host country qualifiers. Accordingly, this may already indicate a wide coverage. just need to find and add links to it Narambug (talk) 11:36, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have such coverage? Something being locally broadcast doesn't equal notable. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

and I support the idea of creating a 2023 PDC European Tour for all tournaments in general, because coverage for the full tour entirely should be enough Narambug (talk) 17:05, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails GNG. Sources in article and BEFORE showed primary, stats, and promo, nothing that meets IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth. None of the keep votes above have shown sources for notability. Article on de: [1] shows no sourcing that meets notability. // Timothy :: talk 11:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Aoidh (talk) 10:56, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The event is a yearly occurrence, and appears to get an article every year. The event will occur shortly, so there is no point in draftifying it. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not really the question here - is the event notable at all? It having previous entries doesn't make those entries notable. We should never be creating items before they are notable anyway. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:51, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It depends what do you mean by notable. My point of view as darts fan is biased, but in my opinion, tournament that is played yearly, that takes 3 days, is played on stage in front of few thousand people, in highest darts "division" that is PDC, is quite notable. Yes, it's not major tournament, but also it's not floor tournament played behind closed doors, or played in WDF division (which is tier lower than PDC). Floor tournaments have only one article per year, which cumulates results from all tournaments and shows only results from QFs and higher (even if 128 players play in those). Haifisch7734 (talk) 20:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not what my opinion of notable is, does it meet Wikipedia's rules on notability (for instance WP:GNG?) Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:23, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it depends how in case of sport results we look at those rules. When event meets "significant coverage"? What media has to write about event to say it's notable? What it has to write about it? Is overall article about tournament in one media and specific results in primary source (like how many legs, what were the averages, seedings etc) enough? Those guidelines are not "accurate" enough to discriminate what secondary source is ok and what secondary source is not enough to be "significant coverage". Haifisch7734 (talk) 09:02, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't depend at all. We require reliable non-primary sources that talk in-depth about the subject. Just saying that it's more notable than other events that aren't notable isn't enough. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:40, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about you actually start looking for secondary sources from websites like dartsnews.com, dartn.de, Sport1, Sky Sports etc. 2003:C3:4703:C900:F9E4:A25A:25CB:6414 (talk) 06:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep; see my comments on precisely the same topic here, made a few minutes ago. The key one is that rather than have this discussion on every single European Tour tournament, some rules need to be written here. 91.110.52.206 (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is: The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline. Which is exactly what is being discussed here. Any sports-specific content there is a guidance on what might be notable, but doesn't trump WP:GNG. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to 2023 PDC Pro Tour per Lee, as there isn't enough SIGCOV to justify a separate article.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Discussion of whether or not there is a substantial amount of available reference material from reliable and independent sources about this particular subject would be helpful toward determination of the outcome. Discussion of the existence of other articles is not.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 12:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the Netherlands, normally there will be coverage by the Algemeen Dagblad (one of the largest national newspapers) after the tournament, as has been done for both The International Darts Open and European Darts Open. Not saying that they will do it again, but when they do it, it can most likely be used as a source which follows WP:GNG. Hope this can help. S9H (talk) 13:38, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

— S9H (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Star Mississippi 01:47, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm an editor on the Dutch WP with more than 20k+ edits there. Darts is there not really my interest area as well, but just happened to come across this nomination and knew that there was coverage by the Algemeen Dagblad, so just trying to help.

Regarding the articles, here, here and here are three AD articles about the tournament and this is a piece by The Independent. S9H (talk) 06:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you or somebody else rewrite the "International Darts Open" article with the correlating sources too? 2003:C3:4703:C900:7CE9:6D5C:7C71:CAE (talk) 08:18, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added the sources and submitted as a draft, which can take up to 4 months to be approved. Honestly, I do not know why such a mess is beaing created with darts. DarthBob (talk) 12:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The people here should do some research about viewing figures and how darts is always in the top 3/5 most watched sports at least in the UK and Germany, and also compare the prize money to other individual sports apart from Tennis or Golf. A few years ago, I remember how every European Tour or Asian Tour event in Snooker had its own article too, and their prize fund and notability was actually lower than the darts equivalent. 2003:C3:4703:C900:7CE9:6D5C:7C71:CAE (talk) 17:06, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I totally understand people can have different views on things, and we darts fans might be somehow biased. Me personally, I am a big fan of both darts and snooker, and do not want anyone to think that either of them is a more or less notable sport. I just find it very sad, that suddenly, out of nowhere, darts articles are being flagged and now one article completely deleted. Now profiles of darts players are completely missing a tournament, which happened just a week ago and being just a casual viewer, I would wonder why. Did it not happen? Did someone forget to create it? Even I came here and because I did not read the discussion (yes, I should have), I recreated that article and was given a warning. Now, after reading many discuss pages I see more into this problem, but still do not really understand why. I was told sources are missing...okay, I agree they were missing somewhere, I added the sources. But then I am being told the tournament is not notable. How and what is the criteria, and who is deciding it? Again I was told, that it needs mentions in news like SkySports, SportingLife...I found them. So what more is needed? Definitely do not want to sound offensive, but I feel like whatever we do and provide (and should be sufficient), something else come up.

European Tour events are definitely notable, ranking tournaments. And as I said, if we had this discussion at 2012 when it was starting, it would be understandable. But after more than 10 years and more than 100 tournaments happening, it seems to me like a major step backwards if we should just delete everything or be merging it into an article, where only quarterfinals, semifinals and finals are shown. DarthBob (talk) 13:28, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep; European Tour had seperate articles for a decade now and there was never a problem. Yes, it is significant and notable tournament, it is in the news, thousands of people are in the arena, people watch on TV or stream. I agree some articles could be better sourced, but this is something we can work on, instead of flagging articles for deletion and creating big mess. All of the tournaments are connected also with the player's profiles. When someone deleted 2023 International Darts Open, it just disappeared even from the templates, one tournament was missing. Basically Wikipedia provides false information then, and I do not think it is better than having pages for each tournament. If you want to discuss, let's discuss, but please do not just delete pages. As I wrote somewhere else, even the commentators and journalists use Wikipedia darts pages during their work, it is reliable, well written and helpful to many people. I understand that for someone not interested in darts at all it seems pointless, but it is a growing sport, coverage is on the rise and the darts community on Wikipedia takes good care of the pages.--DarthBob (talk) 12:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.