Template:Did you know nominations/Celie Ellis Turner

Celie Ellis Turner

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... that despite the classical music education her wealthy family had her study, Celie Ellis Turner chose to join comic opera and farce theatre over her parents' objections?

Source: * "Miss Ellis is a graduate of the Villa Maria Convent of Montreal, Canada, and received her musical education under Mme. Kartel, taking a post graduate course at the Metropolitan College of Music in New York." - Celie Ellis, The Sentinel
"She comes from one of the best families in New York, her father having been a Congressman from that State and her mother a near relative of ex-Gov. Seymour. Her family objected strongly to her going on the stage..." - At The Gardens, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
"Miss Celie Ellis, who has been prominent in comic opera and farce comedy for a number of years..." - Dramatic, Minneapolis Daily Times

ALT1: ... that despite her classical music education and her family's objections to her becoming a stage actress, Celie Ellis Turner chose to join the theatre to perform comic opera and farce?

ALT2: ... that Celie Ellis Turner became a stage actress against her family's wishes, preforming comic opera and farce?

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Hathumoda

Created by Silver seren (talk) and FloridaArmy (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 131 past nominations.

Silver seren^C 19:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC).

Will review this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Looks good. Nice work. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron, BeanieFan11, Silver seren, Fram, and Secretlondon: this nom has been reopened for further thought, following issues raised at WP:ERRORS (peramlink: [1]) about the hook / article integrity (article talks about an argument over theatre acting, not over comic opera specifically) and also a thought that linking the classical music education to the argument with the family with the word despite isn't supported by sourcing. Suggest a rework to make this more robust. — Amakuru (talk) 23:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I made corrections to the article along those lines, but then forgot to go back and update the hook. that one's on me! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her)

Amakuru, this is, honestly, nonsense. Comic opera and farce is the type of theatre acting and performances she went into. They objected to her doing theatre acting and she did anyways, becoming a star in comic opera and farce theatre. Where is the contradiction? Silver seren^C 00:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

As noted, there are two issues that I can see with this. Firstly, the "despite" seems to be misplaced - comic opera is a form of classical music, so it's not like her musical education went to waste while she pursued something totally different. You're inserting a link between those things that isn't sourced. And secondly, the article text and the source specifically say it was stage acting specifically that the family objected to. That might have a logical corrollary that they wouldn't approve of comic opera and farce, but the DYK rules require accuracy in this matter. The hook, article and source must match in what they say, not require logical leaps. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Amakuru, is that ALT better since I've minorly rearranged things? Silver seren^C 00:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Re-review of ALT requested. Silver seren^C 00:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are ok with it, @Silver seren:, I would approve an ALT1b: ... that Celie Ellis Turner became a stage actress against her family's wishes, preforming comic opera and farce? There is nothing interesting about classically educated and being a comic opera actress, since comic opera is a type of classical music, and in fact the Sentinel article that is used to source her education seems to mention it to bolster her credentials. As such, the fact shouldn't be in the hook. Capish? Mach61 01:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I've added that as ALT2. Silver seren^C 01:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Silver seren: I hate to renege on what I said a few minutes ago, I really do, but I don't think I can approve this article. All the sources used in the body of the article (1-13, 14-30 just cite the plays she was in) are from over a century ago, and all but one specifically from the years 1885-1900, and all from WP:NEWSPRIMARY sources. I thought it would be easy, based on the volume of contemporary coverage she recieved, to find one book or article on historical theater from after her death mentioning her, but there really doesn't appear to be anything like that. Seeing as I'm not certain she's notable I don't think I can approve this article. Again, very sorry Mach61 02:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm really confused on your understanding of notability. There is no requirement whatsoever that there be modern coverage of an article. If that was the case, we'd end up eventually deleting almost all biography articles because coverage of them would eventually stop. And that's also not how NEWSPRIMARY works. Sources like this are significant coverage of the subject and her history. The play that is happening at the time would make the article a primary source on that if it was just mentioning that happening, but the article is about Turner, the main person who will be performing in that play and her history. Turner is not an event. Silver seren^C 02:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Silver seren: some responses

There is no requirement whatsoever that there be modern coverage of an article. If that was the case, we'd end up eventually deleting almost all biography articles because coverage of them would eventually stop My concern isn't that there aren't sources some arbitrary number of years close to the present day, which would lead to the problem you describe, but rather that there aren't sources distanced from the timeframe where she was actively preforming (to the point where we her date of death isn't even stated). An obituary from the 1940s, or a mention in a journal of theater studies from that same time, would both suffice on that front. If I saw evidence such sources existed at all, I would be fine approving the article and adding {{refideas}} to talk, but they don't appear to.
And that's also not how NEWSPRIMARY works. Sources like this are significant coverage of the subject and her history. You're right, I should not have said all the sources were primary. I guess that I turned to that essay as a poor surrogate for explaing my concerns about an article based almost entirely on late 19th-century newspaper clippings, which are that
1. Newspapers that far back were just a lot worse at fact-checking and had lower standards compared to now, in a much more significant way then newspapers of, say, the 1970s (hell, some people might argue that newspapers were better in the 70s comparted to today because the internet and corporate consolidation hadn't hollowed them out)
2. Such an article can't place its subject in its proper historical context, particularly when it comes to the end of the subject's period of covered activity, so the end of the article will just be whatever random thing the last clipping talks about and their fate from then on is totally unknown.

These aren't really issues that can be cited to a part of the notability or DYK guidelines specifically, but more fundamental value concerns with what I think is necessary for a good encyclopedia article. The ideal way to test if I actually have a point in holding up the nomination over this would be to start an AfD, but that would probably force WP:DYKTIMEOUT which isn't fair, so I'll bow out and ask for another reviewer on WT:DYK Mach61 05:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

. Going to sleep right after this, if you want a response from me don't expect it for another several hours Mach61 05:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)