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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3→Archive 5

Jerusalem the first Christian metal band?

This statement found in the description of Christian Metal is simply wrong! The Resurrection Band (Rez Band) was first and is far more well known than Jerusalem (but Jerusalem was indeed a great band). If anyone doubts they are Heavy Metal go listen to "Military Man." The Rez Band are the FOUNDERS of Christian Metal, yet they aren't even LISTED. I think more research is in order. Spellsing 09:27 21 Sep 2005

I think the section on the origins of Christian metal are too small for sure. Needs more detail. I'd also think Barnabas merits mention as at the very least influences that led to Christian metal if not one of its earlier practitioners. Of course, naming the "first" band in any genre is difficult. Who's the first Christian rock artist? Most say Larry Norman, but U.K. bands doing the same Mersey style as the Beatles were around back in 1963, 6 years before Upon this Rock. They called it "gospel beat music"..one of them was The Crossbeats.A not very publicized album by a group called Sons of Thunder beat out Norman in America by a year or two. And if we would include bands that performed but didn't release a record, who knows? GBrady (talk) 20:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to agree somewhat, though most "sources" for this are in old magazines and such, which can be hard to find. And I do agree with you about Larry Norman not being the first, as there were "gospel rock" bands well before his time here in the United States as well. Most just consider him the "father of Christian rock music" and not really the creator of it. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 01:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Larry Norman is called the Father of rock because Rez/Resurrection band (formed 1972)[1], Jerusalem (formed 1975)[2],Petra (1972)[3] weren't even together as bands when Larry Norman was touring around the world. Larry Norman was in a group called PEOPLE![4]. Picked up by capitol records[5]. He left the record company because they wouldn't let him name the album "people need a whole lot more of Jesus and a lot less rock n roll". This was in 1968! Way before Rez, Petra, Jerusalem or any others. Larry Norman then made the very first nationally produced Christian rock album titled "upon this rock" in 1969. This also was before the other mentioned bands were even formed. This was before any other group had any Christian rock albums, no less a world wide distributed album. This is why Larry Norman was named the father of Christian rock. The very first Christian rock album was titled "Upon this Rock" in 1969 by Larry Norman and he was recording Christian rock music and playing on the stage as early as 1964. [6] Rez, Petra, and Jerusalem would all admit larry norman was the very first Christian rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.167.214 (talk) 13:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"Genre of the Christian music industry"?

I wasn't too keen on the description:

"a genre of the Christian music industry"

because King's X (and possibly other bands) have made a major contribution to the scene while trying hard not to be just another cog in the CCM machine. We could mention the Christian music industry, but perhaps in a later paragraph - it would be interesting to see some information about how the industry looked on white metal before it became another commodity that was in demand.

My contention is that the genre does not solely depend on the industry and so I've removed the direct link (although adding a link to the musical genre page.

Basswulf 07:32 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

Whiteheart

Why was the Whiteheart link removed? They are a band with a long history producing music in the Christian metal genre and who have been widely influential in doing so. --Basswulf 15:41 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

As a fan of both Christian metal and Whiteheart, Gersmehl's band was NOT heavy metal. Rock, yes...metal no.GBrady (talk) 20:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

King's X

Were King's X really metal? I wouldn't consider them metal.

I think they definitely fall within the scope of 'metal', certainly within a broad definition of the term (such as 'music for headbanging' ;-). They have definitely been widely considered as part of 'christian metal'. Out of interest, where would you put them? Basswulf 11:31, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If King's X isn't "metal" what on God's green earth would you call them? Have you ever listened to King's X? I have everything they ever did and I assure you they are metal.Spellsing9:23 21 Sep 2005

I just heard some of King's X's older stuff... I don't know, but it does seem very Christian-oriented. And the circumstances around the band kind of indicates they weren't. Regardless, I think that giving them a mention in this article or the Christianity in Mainstream metal article would be good, as they did help to spur Christian metal. IronCrow (talk) 05:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Well I'll add my two cents. I have all of their albums up to Tape Head. Their lyrics were definately on the Christian side of things. And constant press in HM help people think they were Christian. When Van Pelt first interviewed Pinnick about the gay rumors was when I began to question things. To me it seems that King's X would keep the Christian vibe going because it sold. Some I know will disagree with this viewpoint. I'll leave that kind of question if they belong on the page to others. But I would have to ask if King's X is included should Galactic Cowboys be included? They were even featured on HM Video Magazine once.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I see no reason not to include Galactic Cowboys. Their last two albums have distinct Christian overtones, and the band toured the Christian bookstore circuit actively during that time. In fact, there are YouTube videos of some of those shows. King's X was strongly Christian early on. They sung about abstinence (Goldilox), abortion (Legal Kill), and prayer (Over My Head), as well as showing spiritual perspectives during their less overtly-Christian songs. Mpbahr (talk) 03:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Confusing sentence

I was confused by this sentence: ``Most heavy metal fans do not consider this to be a real form of metal, as they believe the music is more important than lyrics and the lyrics do not define a genre.

Is this suggesting that the lyrics in Christian metal are somehow metal while the music is not? Isn't it closer to the other way round?

For the moment I've shortened it to ``Most heavy metal fans do not consider this to be a real form of metal.

No, u have i backwards-the music is metal but the lyrics rn'tMighty Zeus 22:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

What makes lyrics "metal"? If anything, telling somone they can't be metal and sing about Jesus Christ is a pretty unmetal act IMO --E tac 22:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Switchfoot as "metal"

I don't really think that Switchfoot could be defined as "metal". Plus, what about the ones like POD, Thousand Foot Krutch (they're definitely more metal than Switchfoot?

  • I get the impression they are just a rock band. Most Christian metalheads (including me) do not think POD, Thousand Foot Krutch, etc., are metal, but they are Nu metal, which is sort of a problem genre anyway, so it's probably best to leave those here. I'm going to remove Switchfoot though. --Idont Havaname 21:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • So, what, we're supposed to make a "List of Christian Nu metal bands"? Come on.
          • I don't consider TFK metal, and DEFNITLY NOT Switchfoot, they are WAY too light to even be in the topic. TFK is more Rock, with hints of Rap in their earlier works. POD is metal-oriented, but it's more Rapcore/Hardcore. Touniqeut = Metal Switchfoot = Rock. IronCrow 04:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I would consider Switchfoot to be rock. TFK, POD, and Pillar are all nu metal to me. (I see POD and Pillar as being closer to the sound of Linkin Park than say Nickelback.)GBrady (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Clean-up

The prose on this page badly needs tightening and trimming. Could someone who knows about Christian Metal not have a good look at it?

  • That's exactly what I've been doing, and a few others have been doing that too. I've been a Soae (Christian metal email list) subscriber for years, and I'm a pretty big fan of some Christian metal bands. --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Christian Metal/Rock/Punk/Hardcore/Etc is my favorite. I'll try to keep a lookout for news regarding bands that have influences of their own taht mark the Christian Metal scene unique. IronCrow 04:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Black Sabbath

Does Black Sabbath deserve an honorable menction on this page? In their photoshoots they are always seen wearing crosses. Then there is their song After Forever. [1]

  • Nope. If you look over the Black Sabbath member bios, particularly the other works of Ozzy, you'll see why they aren't. I looked at some of the other lyrics on LetsSingIt, and it didn't look like they thought too highly of Christianity. Thanks for asking on the talk page first without adding them to the main article, though. --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • The 4 original Black Sabbath members are all Christian. Ozzys little "prince of darkness" image is just that, an image. And what lyrics are you talking about that they dont think too highly of Christianity anyway? I wanna see. --Arm
  • I disagree this is one of the few bands who practice what they preach Slayer and Venom sing about Satan, but they not practicers of the dark arts. The 4 orrignal Sabbath members all dabbled in witchcraft.
I'm guessing he was referring to "Under The Dying Sun", which starts off by saying "Well, I don't want no Jesus freak to tell me what it's all about", but then it says "No black magician telling me to cut my soul out". Basically, the song's about not conforming to peer pressure and stuff. Black Sabbath didn't really endorse the devil in any way. I think they probably should be mentioned (Specifically, yeah, the song "After Forever" (Maybe as the first White Metal song?)).
Please leave a username when making such strong statemant as that. The fact is all metal traces back to Gospel music which traces back to slave spiritual music, written for non other than: GOD! Iamvery
Oh really? You obviously haven't done your homework. Let's check out the lyrics for "After Forever" from "Master of Reality" (1971). Read 'em and weep. Pasajero 23:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you?
Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?

When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool?
Well I have seen the truth, yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways
And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days

Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
that God is the only way to love

Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun?

I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near, say you don't believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down, now you can't retrieve

Perhaps you'll think before you say that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one
The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate
Or will you still jeer at all you hear? Yes! I think it's too late.


  • Don't you dare putting Black Sabbath on the Christian Metal page. They are clearly NOT christian.
  • uh i dont really konw enough about Black Sabbath to konw weather theyre Christian or not but i know that in one of their songs the lyrics go something like "my name is Lucifer; take my hand". anyways even the name doesnt sound very Christian. BLACK Sabbath? i donno if this makes any sense to anyone but thats just what i think about it.
  • Most of Black Sabbath's songs are about how Satan is bad and dire warnings, and about how Satan makes everything all crappy. See the songs Black Sabbath, Hand Of Doom, Electric Funeral, Children Of The Grave, Lord Of This World (sung from Satan's perspective, it's a warning not to waste your life), and of course the aforementionedly awesome AFTER FOREVER... they don't sing about God all the time but they definitely have a few songs with pro-Christian messages. They're never singing about how Satan is awesome or something... and We Sold Our Soul For Rock And Roll is excessively tongue in cheek. PolarisSLBM 03:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah they had a few songs back in the day warning of the wrath of God and such, but if you new anything about black sabbath you'd know they were hevily into occult black magic type stuff and drugs so to consider them a christian band is just wrong. They also said the purpouse of the band was to write lyrics to scare people and stuff not to write music to honor Christ or songs about Christianity. They could have just thought singing about the wrath of God might scare some people, it doesn't mean they believed in Him or more importantly had a personal relationship with him, which is what makes one a Christian. So if anything you could put somthing about them in the contreversy section about them being a non-christian band that wrote some songs that could be in agreement with the christian faith. - E_tac
  • Sabbath was definitely not a Christian metal band. Sure, they wrote a few Christian-themed songs, but they also wrote lyrics about Norse mythology, Satanism, witchs, ect. These guys were mainly interested in occult and spiritual stuff, so they just wrote lyrics about that. It's not like they were trying to promote their faith or something.--DarkPresence 17:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The song Mr. Crowley, while not necessarily being anti-Christian, glorifies someone who denounced religion and is commonly referred to as the most evil man ever to live. Furthermore, I remember my dad telling me a long time ago that Ozzy wanted that song to be perfect, flawless and an outstanding tribute to this man. He made Randy Rhoads retake it some huge number of times because he was so focused on the song. Whether or not members of Black Sabbath are God-fearing, I certainly wouldn't refer to them as Christian. I won't claim to know intimate knowledge about the other members though. I don't really like Sabbath that much myself. I lean more towards Ronnie James than Ozzy.

- TheTacoOne —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 22:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  • "Hand Of Doom" and "Electric Funeral" don't deal with Satan at all. The former is about heroin addiction, and the latter about a nuclear holocaust and its aftermath. The song "Black Sabbath" deals with satan from a horror movie point of view. In sum "Lord Of This World" express how humankind was supposed to be all loving and good and it isn't. It is not a religious song. Religion is used as a way to express that mankind is fucked up. While "After Forever" is a reflection of life after dead from a a Christian perspective, in "NIB" Ozzy sings in first person from the point of view of Lucifer. The frontcover of "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" portrays a guy harrased by some kind of demon while the number of the beast (666) is shown on the head of his bed. Maybe for commercial reasons, at first Sabbath promoted a satanic image with an inverted cross on the inside of their first LP. --User:rivet138
  • In conclusion: Although Sabbath were not Satanists, they were certainly not Christians either. It is not possible to tell for sure what religious belief they profess. Maybe they didn't have one, at least not an organized, dogmatic one. --User:rivet138
I think it is safe to mention them, but they were never a Christian metal group. Sure, they had pro-Christian songs and Ozzy said he was Catholic (if I remember correctly, it might have been someone else). I think their music DID have an impact though, on how Christians view metal. Not all Metal is Slayer or Slipknot trash. IronCrow 04:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Geezer Butler was the only one who ever really experimented with the occult and that did not last long. It had an effect and frightened him into moving away from that and inspired the "Black Sabbath" song the band were named after. The rest of the band are Christian, the songs are largely warnings against the evils of the world - hence the crosses worn on stage. They could be perhaps said to be a sign that metal and religion would be closely linked from the start with their Christian symbolism but that it was often misinterpreted. Worthy of a mention I would say, but only in a passing sentence suggesting the concept of metal and religion being closely tied was there at such an early stage.

(The Elfoid (talk) 01:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

They are definately not christian, but they do have christian values, and they do have respect for christianity. However, the crosses they wear (including on former occultist Tony Iommi) is just satire, they're not respect for God or anything...Ninjaspwnpirates (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Black Sabbath isn't a Christian Metal band but the song "After Forever" with its lyrics deserves to be mentioned. RKFS (talk) 12:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The list of bands in this article

I mentioned this at Talk:List of hard rock CCM artists, but I'm thinking about splitting our list of artists on this article into its own list. The problem is that a few of these are listed at List of hard rock CCM artists, and are clearly metal, not regular hard rock. In my opinion those should be two different lists. (We don't need to split it up further into List of black metal CCM artists, list of hardcore CCM artists, etc... that would be ridiculous since we'd eventually split it down to one-band lists!) So I'd welcome opinions on what to do with the list in this article and the list at List of hard rock CCM artists. --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


No, really.

Unblack metal merge

Can we remove the merge request for Unblack metal? It's not being discussed and, personally, I think the two are completely different. The article explains that too. My preference would be to just leave them as mentions in each article. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


  • i agree too, I do however think that the unblack artical could be expanded..possibly to include the origins of it name( the album "Holy Unblack" by Horde) --

Actually Horde are mention in the Christian metal article. Neither does it seem to me that unblack metal warrants an article of its own since it is just another minor pseudo-sub-genre. So a merger seems in place (or complete deletion) Spearhead 21:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


  • I think Unblack metal should be considered Christian Metal. Some lyrics like on the first CD of Slechtvalk, "Falconry", are clearly christian. But there should be different categories for white metal and unblack metal...

What about Petra?

weren't Petra considered a christian metal band?

  • Nope. They were specifically Christian Rock. IronCrow 04:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm with IronCrow. Wouldn't consider them even CLOSE to "metal". "Judas Kiss", a couple tracks on ON FIRE! and one or two on JEKYLL AND HYDE is as hard as they got and I'd only call those "hard rock" if I were feeling generous. I'd say the ROOTS of Christian metal are in Rez and Barnabas and the first TRUE Christian metal act was probably Stryper...unless someone unearths a band with a local custom recording prior to that. I know Bloodgood dates back a long ways though..they may have beat Stryper by a tad. It's hard to fix things like that in time without a demo tape or other evidence (dated concert poster) to nail it all down. GBrady (talk) 21:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ with the above comment. For one, I've listened to Petra, Stryper and Rez all of them in my collection. Petra's Jekyll and Hyde is way much harder than anything Rez ever put out in terms of the music plus a great deal of Stryper. The reason is that both hard rock and metal genre are getting harder and harder in terms of music with the guitar mix being out at the top. the only thing with J & H is that the songs are short and mostly unmetal like lyrics and with few solos.

Petra cannot be gunny-sacked as "specifically" Christian rock. To be precise, their music evolved from 1970's hard rock (which was akin to metal at the time) then went into rock with pop infuence in early 80's, then arena hard rock/metal in the late 80's and 90's, then Acoustic rock in the late 90's, then back to hard rock/pop metal.

The above writer's mistakes are,

  • To assume that the definitions and style of rock remain static from the 1970's to present. It was quite common for what we now call hard rock bands to be referred to as metal, for example the Aerosmiths (who like Petra started out in 1972). The differences between hard rock and metal then was a matter of presentation in terms of the band dressing and other paraphernalia. Coincidentally, there have been debates as to whether Aerosmiths fit somewhere as predecessors of Metal.
  • To assume that Petra's music was the same throughout their career of over twenty albums.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.22.7 (talk) 11:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Jekyll and Hyde was only harder than Rez's Ampendectomy. Otherwise, it was mellow in comparison. I was around for Petra's entire career and they were never considered metal by the industry or their fans. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

"Unblack" metal

"Unblack metal" refers to music that sounds like black metal but with christian themes. the article states that unblack metal is any heavy metal with christian themes. i can't make these changes so if you can, please make this clear.

More Information...?

I think more information on the developement of Christian Metal is a good idea, including influences (Even Black Sabbath as an influnce, not a Christian band), genres most used, and maybe a topic or article on Choas Metal (Chaoscore), that the article says was developed by bands like Norma Jean and The Chariot.

Whitecross - glam?

I would hardly consider Whitecross to be a glam band, especially afert Stryper. I don't think any of the guys in Whitecross ever wore makeup?

If you need a glam band, why not put Scarlet Red or even Stryper?

Monster 205.207.121.130 17:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC) WhiteCross weren't glam. I do remember HEAVEN'S METAL ragging on them for not having an "image" but I'd definitely say they weren't glam. Scarlet Red would fit that bill...and I'm THINKING that Ken Tamplin's band Shout might as well. GBrady (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Disgusted

I am frankly appalled by the inane and tawdry nature of the discussion contained above. Particulalry the discussion on Black Sabbath, which can by no stretch of the imagination be viewed as a Christian band. The fact that they wear crosses is to poke fun at 'god' not to praise 'him', this is called satire. Metal is by its very nature opposed to 'god' how then is it that you can account for a type of metal that is christian? Christian 'metal heads' therefore are not true metal heads and aree thus posers!

Why is it that non christian 'metal' i.e. real metal is refered to by christian 'metalheads' as mainstream? Christianity is mainstream, and this shows little or no understanding of the true nature of metal. It is also propaganda and a reversal of what real metal stands for and prides itself on. I also notice that many christian 'metal' sites give a comparison between real metal bands and christian bands is the point of this to then convert people and stop them listening to what must then be considered Evil or Satanic metal?

It seems like the point of this page and indeed all christian 'metal' is to proselytise to non christian metalheads and corrupt them to worship 'god'. Shame on anyone who does this. They are worse than Vomit. They have little backbone and can not stand by their convictions becuase they are morally weak and repugnant.

Many have been alienated and persecuted for listening to the likes of Black Sabbath by christians so it is hypocritical for christians to now jump on the band wagon and use the very thing once despised to save 'souls'. No doubt many of you christian' metalheads' were equally repremanded and marginalised by christian parents and society and so you listen to christian metal so that you can remain part of the flock and avoid being ostericised and sopposedly damned. Well, I damn you and that is certianly more meaningful then the ancient words of desert nomads mad inklings and superstitious beliefs in a non existant being.

Death to all false metal. Brothers of true metal proud and standing tall, wimps and posers leave the hall. The Crying Orc 20:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Right, because Atheism is not mainstream at all, huh? Except that it's taught in school, it's all over the media, and it's pretty much omnipresent in the entire goddamn youth culture. But hey, that doesn't count, right? Wow, that's some pretty kvlt stuff you've got here!...face it, Atheism is as mainstream among the newer generations as Christianity was among the older generations. Not underground by any stretch of the imagination, in fact it's rather trendy. Now, if there's something that ALL metalheads can agree on, it's that Metal shouldn't be trendy. THIS is what Metal really stands for, buddy, not a bunch of BM guys wearing corpse paint and brandishing inverted crosses...LOL.--DarkPresence 17:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow, "The Crying Orc," you really made no sense. Wait, you did make sense, it was just, well, let me put it bluntly: pointless. For someone who reads Tolkien (A commited creationist, Catholic, and author), you must be joking. Honestly, that bit towards the end made me laugh a little. Christian metal has been here for awhile, and you can't say it's "false metal" or "poser" stuff, as I can list numerous metal bands with Christian members or at least members that believe in a God. Black Sabbath, God Forbid, just to name two or the many. Yeah, there are metal bands that speak out against religion, such as Slipknot, but then there are those that speak for religion, such as Comeback Kid and again, Black Sabbath. Alice Cooper for one? A Christian, yes, a commited one. I mean come on, Marty Friedman, who is formerly of Megadeth, even played quest guitar on Tourniquet's album. If many "True Metal" artists accept "Christian Metal" then apparently, you're words are just comments from a confused metal fan. IronCrow 03:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I really hate it when idiots decide to talk about Christians as a global group. Not only are there some huge number of sects with highly differing systems of worship and thoughts on dealing with the secular world, the people who persecuted others for jammin' sabbath are probably like 40 now and I highly doubt any of them are here for your god-bashing, orc boy. Furthermore...this is America. We do what we want. You can live in your conformist little hole where nothing can change and secular metal is the devils work and whatnot...you sound more like the people you're condemning. The ones that stopped caring 20 years ago. Hah. Get a hobby. TheTacoone —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Um... to the guy who said that Christianity was mainstream...

DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATION TO THE WORLD!!!??? Really. Christian-bashing and discrimination against Christains is quite common, the way I see it. I mean, look at this discussion right here. And yes, Christain "metal" is "metal", and some metal bands have Christians (most notably, Tom Araya of Slayer and Dave Mustaine of Megadeth) in them.

Also, at least that DarkPrescence guy has some brains. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 18:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You make some good points, but i can't sit here and let you say that metal was built on anti-christian beliefs. Metal is simply a form of music that is heavier than rock. that's it. Metal in general is not satanic, although i admit there are more sketchy artists in metal than in, say, country. I am not a metalhead, per se, i prefer hard rock, but i do enjoy certain kinds of metal, and i am also christian. I listen to both Megadeath and Stryper, and i doubt that God cares one way or another. and besides, last time i checked, Tolkien is christian. If your going to Godbash, don't name your username after A CHRISTIAN SERIES.Ninjaspwnpirates (talk) 23:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Metal is not a religion or way of life, it doesn't stand for anything, but if that's your opinion then fine. But it doesn't belong on Wikipedia which has a broad definition of Metal as a music genre. But mostly just "LOL"RKFS (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Reecent addition

The reecent changes by The Crying Orc (talk · contribs) seems to be greatly biased. →AzaToth 22:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This article was unbelievably biased before I came across it. It was written like a shoddy review in a crappy Church magazine, with a breathless exuberation and devotion to what amounts, in truth, to a non-genre. Unlike the fans of this genre of false metal, I actually provided a citation for my most "biased" paragraph...
Death to false metal. Brothers of true metal stand proud and tall, wimps and posers leave the hall. The Crying Orc 23:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This whole article is incredibly redundant. Any of this info can be found elsewhere on wikipedia. Also, stop arguing over trivial matters, such as defining genres and categories of music (subjective). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.61.31.41 (talk • contribs) .

Bias

Certain statements in this article (eg "(a christian 'metal' term or buzzword for real metal)") appear to be biased. I feel that they should be removed, because Wikipedia should have a neutral point of view--no matter whether you like the subject in question or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.250.67.28 (talk • contribs) .

Proposed Rewrite

I am currently working on a re-write of the article to try and remove much of the POV. You can find it here. Feel free to contribute, especially when it comes to citiations. --Limetom 05:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and implemented my rewrite. Please add to it, especially with references. --Limetom 05:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

"Real Metal Fans"

Honestly, it humors me how "real metal fans" come into this discussion acting like they're somehow superior. Arrogant people like you guys (I'm mainly looking at you Crying Orc) ruin Wikipedia. I'll tell you, I used to be a "real metal" fan. I used to be into all the secular bands both classic and new. After being born again (yeah, that's right, I wasn't raised Christian, I willingly became Christian when I finally saw the light), I've actually given Christian metal a chance, and I find myself enjoying it even more than "real metal." I can't get enough of bands like As I Lay Dying, Haste the Day, Norma Jean, Living Sacrifice and Becoming the Archetype.

Believe what you want about what metal means. To me, metal is a rebelious pouring out of emotions, a music genre that doesn't hold back. And I honestly believe no matter what your message is, it works. Because of my beliefs, Christian metal has been absolutely wonderful, and I believe true metal fans (those who are truly unbias) should see this and realize that times change, and music changes with it. Yeah, maybe most Christians were against metal back in the day (heck, they still are today). Times change, and I can't help but laugh when people say stuff like, "It's so hypocritical for Christians to use something they used to hate for their purpose." Well guess what, most of those Christians that hated metal back in the day still hate it. Every generation is different.

All I have to say is, I think all the chaos centering around this Christian Metal article is meaningless. I don't know what is with all you unhappy secular metal fans attacking Christian metal. Then again, I guess before I was a Christian I was pretty unhappy, so I can somewhat understand. All I can do is continue praying for you guys I guess, because I doubt what I say will really help.

Saigar 03:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)Saigar

I agree. I think it's completely pointless to slam a genre of music. I hate Fall Out Boy, but I'm not going to go to the Fall Out Boy Article and call them "fake rockers" or whatever. Wikipedia = Neutral, as much as you are biased, at least follow that. Don't come to this page and trample bands that you obviously don't know about or have even lsitened to. Neutral is the key. IronCrow 19:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Band listing

I added some Christian metal bands to the list such as Majestic Vanguard. Now they are not there. What gives?

changes

I actually made some changes a while ago, but I'm just now mentioning them in the talk section. I left the basic framework, but I added some information and re-worded some things.

Black Sabbath to be considered?

They did often talk about the vegence of God in their lyrics....

Black Sabbath is not a Christian Metal band. They have never claimed to be, and most people do not consider them to be a Christian Metal band. Just because someone talks about something doesn't mean that they are that thing. I could talk about drug use, but that doesn't mean I use drugs.
This is starting to amount to trolling on this point (see WP:TROLL), and there was already a discussion going on about this above. Please don't be a troll, you'll make Wikipe-tan cry. --Limetom 02:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
They were not a Christian band, no, but they were Christians (true or not) and they did help inspire the genre. --User:Saint Diamond

02, December 2006

Although Sabbath were not Satanists, they were certainly not Christian either. It is not possible to tell for sure what religious belief they profess. Maybe they didn't have one, at least not an organized, dogmatic one. --User:rivet138 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.10.233.95 (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Controversies (What Controversies?) - Christians In Non-Christian Metal Bands

Really, is this article about Christian metal or non-Christian metal?

Sure, it's interesting to note all the metal bands that have Christian members (or "have members who were raised in Christian homes"), but then most every metal band would be listed. Rather, this article SHOULD be about Christian metal -- not anything else. The listing of anything else makes a joke of the genre and the article. There's no 'controversy'. If anything, metal bands with Christian members should be a separate article imo. Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Slayer and Megadeth (all among my favorites, btw, along with Stryper) listed in an article about Christian metal?! Please!

Btw, isn't Dream Theater's 'In The Name Of God' an anti-religion song? Well, not 'anti-religion', per se, and definitely not 'anti-Christian'. But certainly while Christian metal seeks to actively teach and spread the faith through metal, this song notes how great harm comes when one does act on faith, in the name of it. Just like Slayer shouldn't be listed in an article about Christian metal, though Tom Araya is Christian, Dream Theater shouldn't be listed, though they may have good and faithful Christians among them. The band itself (along with all the others) is NOT Christian metal and should NOT be listed in an article about the genre imo. Darnold01 22:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No the dream theater song is not an anti religion song, it is about David Koresh. Why shouldn't metal musicians in the secular scene who have professed Christianity be mentioned in the article? Some people would consider bands who have all Christian members to be a Christian band, just like somone who is a professional athlete, or a plumber and also a Christian. You wouldn't be incorrect in calling them a Christian athlete or a Christian plumber, just because they aren't using their talents to try and convert somone at all times. Its not like anyone is trying to pass the secular bands that have Christian members off as Christian bands anyways. It is just interesting and noteworthy to know what musicians in those bands have made public profesions of faith. Slayer is stated in the article to be a band with anti-christian imagery and lyrics, so what is wrong with mentioning them in the article in that manner? --E tac 23:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I see that reading and reading comprehension is a handicap. Let's address your arguments...
"No the dream theater song is not an anti religion song, it is about David Koresh."
Actually, I said myself "Well, not 'anti-religion', per se, and definitely not 'anti-Christian'. But certainly while Christian metal seeks to actively teach and spread the faith through metal, this song notes how great harm comes when one does act on faith, in the name of it."
Would you argue that 'In The Name of God' is a Christian metal song? Certainly not. Would you argue that Dream Theater is a Christian Metal band? Definitely not. So where's the controversy?
"Why shouldn't metal musicians in the secular scene who have professed Christianity be mentioned in the article?"
Because the article is about "Christian Metal", NOT about "secular" metal, though the musicians may or may not be Christians. Fact is, their bands and their music are not at all "Christian Metal". Using your argument, then ultimately (as I previously stated) "most every metal band would be listed", making the article useless as regards to information about Christian metal.
"Some people would consider bands who have all Christian members to be a Christian band, just like somone who is a professional athlete, or a plumber and also a Christian. You wouldn't be incorrect in calling them a Christian athlete or a Christian plumber, just because they aren't using their talents to try and convert somone at all times."
Using such a twisted argument, one could say that Slayer is Christian metal because one or more of their members is a Christian. Really, does that line of thinking actually make sense?
"Its not like anyone is trying to pass the secular bands that have Christian members off as Christian bands anyways. It is just interesting and noteworthy to know what musicians in those bands have made public profesions of faith."
And I completely agree. As I myself previously stated "Sure, it's interesting to note all the metal bands that have Christian members (or "have members who were raised in Christian homes"), but then most every metal band would be listed. Rather, this article SHOULD be about Christian metal -- not anything else."
When it comes to "Controversies", there is none. There are likely hundreds (if not thousands) of secular bands with Christian members. Do you realistically suggest that ALL be listed in an article about Christian metal, despite the fact that none of them perform Christian metal? Again, it's interesting to note all these bands and their members, but it has nothing to do with the topic of the article: Christian Metal. Instead, I'd suggest a separate article more appropriate for that topic than the more specific "Christian Metal".
"Slayer is stated in the article to be a band with anti-christian imagery and lyrics, so what is wrong with mentioning them in the article in that manner?"
Where did I state mentioning them in this article in THAT context would be wrong? Reading comprehension... Rather, I do suggest that they shouldn't be mentioned only because one member is a Christian. What does that unrelated nugget of knowledge do to educate Wikipedia readers about Christian Metal? NOTHING. It's all about content and context.
I don't expect for anyone to inact the suggestion. I only put it out there to note that there is no "controversy" when it comes to the topic of the article because it has NOTHING to do with the topic -- all in an effort to improve the article through debate and concensus. If you feel it makes sense and benefits the user as is then fine. 'Maybe' someone else will also see the nonsensical argument(s) for keeping it.
Either way, if you do reply further, please read and read to understand before doing so. Darnold01 06:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


Maybe an entirely new article would be more appropriate, one about Christian members of secular metal bands (hundreds or thousands of bands!). That makes more sense than listing them in an article about Christian metal, music they most certainly don't perform in the bands listed in this article. Darnold01 06:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You make some good points, you are right about some of it not being controversial, I don't see why it can't remain on this page though, it could maybe be put renamed into a section such as "mainstream metal with christian influences", with a sub heading of "controversial" which would list artists within that group who are. That would be apropriate for listing bands who aren't labeled "Christian bands" but who have Christian influences. I see no reason to make a new page as this article isn't that big, and about the list being so huge, can you really name that many artists in secular bands who have professed a faith in Jesus Christ? The Tom Araya bit is controversial within that area, I myself am personally pretty skeptical of anyone who would sing those type things yet claim Christianity, so I find it quite controversial. I see no reason why it can't stay here for the time being, unless the section grows enough to be worth making a new article for it. --E tac 07:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the list of secular bands with Christian members does serve a purpose in the Controversies section -- to emphasize that in the next paragraph, the controversy is not that these professed Christians are in secular metal bands, but that they are in metal bands with actively anti-Christian themes. I think this purpose could be better served, however, by compressing the whole paragraph into a lead-in sentence for the next paragraph; something like, "It is no longer controversial for a professed Christian to play in a secular metal band -- for example, Dave Mustaine of Megadeth recently converted to Christianity, while Alice Cooper has been a professed Christian for many years. Certain artists, however ..." Jpers36 18:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with mentioning some people, such as Alice Cooper, but Darnold01 is right. There seems to be more about metal bands with Christian members rather than Christian Metal bands in some areas. I think this article should focus on Christian Metal, it's influences, Christian Metal bands, and the like. Metal bands with Christians is just too broad for an encyclopedia. I mean, I don't have a problem with saying something like "some bands such as 'this band' and 'that band' have Christian members and use Christian imagery, but they do not classify as Christian Metal" and then continue on with the topic or something. It'd be pointless to list metal bands with Christian members, especially Slayer or even Deicide. Take this statement for example: "Certain artists, however, are controversial in that they claim Christianity while playing in bands with anti-Christian lyrics or themes. Tom Araya, Slayer's lead vocalist, claims to be a Roman Catholic despite singing overtly anti-Christian lyrics. Deicide, known for their Satanic and anti-Christian themes, includes guitarist Ralph Santolla, another professing Roman Catholic." Is it just me or is that statement about the artists of non-Christian bands? I don't see anything about how that effects Christian Metal. The paragraph above that even makes me wonder why it is in the "controversies" section, when it should be more or less in it's own section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IronCrow (talk • contribs) 04:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
As you can tell, I have changed my mind of that - It's an old subject, so this comment is basically for reference. It makes sense to add it to the article, however, how it is now is great (the sections I mean). It kind of does effect Christian metal as it seems that today, people are more accepting of Christian metal than they were in say... the 80's, One reason being secular bands that kind of rubbed off their image. IronCrow (talk) 01:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

"King James Only"???

In the "Controversies" section it says "certain Christian groups, most notably those in some King James Only denominations, consider all types of rock and metal music opposed to their faith..." I don't believe that qualification is justified — at least, not without some supporting references. There are people who feel that throughout Christendom; there's no reason to suppose the King James Only people are more inclined to that viewpoint. Rocinante9x 01:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite possibly the most revolting reference I could find is [2], Dial-the-Truth Ministries. It makes me sick to think that there are Christians like these people out there. Also, some people could use some common sense when it comes to what may or may not be Christian Metal. Black Sabbath? I mean, you could say "Hey, Band X (a black metal band with heavy anti-christian themes) talks about God and Jesus alot, are they Christian Metal?" Just think about it before you write your thoughts down... Jlricherson 04:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It's entirely true - from the same group that brought you the above - Rants about Amy Grant and P.O.D., more rants, even more rants, still more rants - all dissing artists who have been sold as Christian artists at one time or another. This stuff goes on and on. Worse, they actually print this stuff and I've seen it and similar materials from other groups being handed out in churches before. In my small experience fundamentalist groups, and especially KJO affiliated organisations, seem to push this stuff most rabidly. On the other hand, we dont cite these enough. They could really make for fun reading. Dan, the CowMan 06:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Dial-The-Truth-Ministries studies witchcraft, satanism, pornography, and the occult more than any of the Christian bands/artists they write about. Maybe they should be mentioned (joke). To be completely honest, I thought it was a satire site when I first read it. What I thought was funnier was "Evanescence is not a Christian band!" When I read that I was like... duh... even if they were they'd still get bashed. Anyways... I do think that King James Only would not be fit for the article. I'd say lots of fundamentalists think Christian Metal is "evil," but King James Only? Not sure if that's all taht fits. IronCrow 04:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Since you mention it, why aren't we listing Evanescence and Soul Embraced in the main article? Obviously Ev has disclaimed being CCM, but they are/were/was widely thought to be CCM until they did, and they had former members from the overtly CCM Soul Embraced. They probably merit a mention just to establish that they are NOT CCM. Soul, meanwhile, obviously is. Mpbahr (talk) 03:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so we all agree that Dial-the-Truth is one KJO group that finds Christian Rock and Metal to be an abomination, but are their any more to put more faces to the "Certain Christian groups" that still are in the article? Are there any others (whether they are extremists or not) that fall into this category? Oh, and if you're just wanting to read into this, seriously check out the sites above, you will be amazed at the vitriol coming from this group on this topic. Jlricherson 04:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It's endless drivel from DTT, but there are other groups that have these doctrines. There's a Christian universtiy in town, they have a couple of books that look to be on the subject, so I may check that out this week. (Here is a general discussion of the issue, a decent place to start. [Here http://wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/musicfbns.htm is some material] from the "Fundamental Baptist Information Service". This group is run by "Way of Life Literature. There's more online (not from any of the above) - here, and one final link - just some examples. On the flipside of this theres The Apologetics Essays. Dan, the CowMan 02:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Petty bickering

In order to prevent further arguments, I changed "anti-Christian" and "unChristian" to "against right hand path sentiments." I hope this will be sufficient; as Etac stated, unChristian isn't a word; however, anti-Christian isn't correct either. Pagan bands are not necessarily anti-Christian; to do so they would have to acknowledge the Christian spectrum, which they don't. Christianity and Satanism/anti-Christianity are at opposite ends of the same stick...paganism is on a completely different stick, making it impossible for paganism to be anti-Christian. I think anti-right hand path reflects the spirit of the word "unChristian" as close as possible without having to type the whole thing I just typed and clutter the paragraph.  ;)

Well the black metal article states that "Black metal has been met with considerable hostility from mainstream culture, mainly because of the misanthropic and anti-Judeo-Christian attitude of bands contributing to the genre. Additionally, a few black metal bands have been known to have associations with church burnings". Also this is an encyclopedia so we should be using propper words. Left and Right Hand path are also vague rarely used terms and this is the Christian metal artice so shouldn't black metal be discussed in relation to that and not all "right hand path beliefe systems". Also saying someone has to be a satanist to be anti-Christian doesn't make much sense either, it is like saying it is impossible to be an anti-semite unless you are a nazi. --E tac 19:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • In all truth I've found more anti-christian sentiment amongst those who hold no allegiance than those who claim to worship Satan. Or at least, it's much more common to find the first kind of person than the latter. I've never known anyone to worship Satan with the exception of myself when I was about 17...I listened to bands like Deicide, God Dethroned, Ancient...Those bands are fairly much anti-Christian...I think it's safe to say that bands like Cannibal Corpse, Devourment, and Lamb of God are really more focused on things that have absolutely nothing to do with religion, whether or not it offends the heck out of our soft-hearted Christian mothers. And I suppose Amon Amarth and Yngwie and other people talking about Thor and whatnot...whether or not they're serious, I don't know...they're on the other stick. I personally don't see them as being relative to a religious term though. Maybe we're trying too hard here to classify things according to it's relation with Jesus. Maybe it should just be our music (Christian Metal) and not. It's easier that way. There's already a huge page for them...we should just worry about what's ours. TheTacoOne 17:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Controversy?

It's stupid that somebody whould see it anti-Christian when the band is Christian and promoting it. Don't judge! - Christianrocker93

I agree, however, it happens. There are lots of Christians, including some I know, who despise Christian Metal and some Christian Rock as, to them, they believe that it it plagued with... you could say, "the devil." Go figure. IronCrow 21:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 04:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rez_Band
  2. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_(Swedish_band)
  3. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra_(band)
  4. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People!
  5. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_records
  6. ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Norman
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