User:Kizor/sandbox

RfC: Should Wikipedia return to Vector 2010 as the default skin?

Should Wikipedia return to Vector 2010 as the default skin? ~ HAL333 20:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Also see Question #2: If the new design is kept as the default, then should unlimited text width be the default?

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Discussion

Support

1. Support as nom The WMF unilaterally forced the 2022 vector skin upon the community, despite a community wide discussion that found there was no consensus for such a change. The ONUS was on the WMF to convince the community and they failed. And the argument that we editors are but a small portion of Wikipedia users is dead on arrival: IP editors and readers are unable to use anything besides the 2022 skin. The WMF had decided that they have no choice, and no voice in this affair. The 2022 skin itself is inferior to its 2010 predecessor. It's indulgent, made by people with at most a modicum of editing experience, and poorly made, with excessive white space and spawning sandwiching and myriad other issues. Let's return to what worked. Let's return to what billions of readers of Wikipedia have been completely content with for over a decade. In brief, If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ~ HAL333 20:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   So Wikipedia should never change, for all time? 331dot (talk) 20:43, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I commend your straw man. ~ HAL333 20:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Can you answer the question? Because that is what you are saying. That no change should ever be implemented because it doesn't please everyone- which is impossible. 331dot (talk) 20:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   That is not what he is saying. There is a significant difference between not pleasing everyone and displeasing a large part of your community. Your argument is empty. I logged in for the first time in ages just to revert this unnecessary change that no significant majority wanted. IronRook (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Nothing on Wikipedia is determined by a majority vote, but by a consensus along with a weighing of arguments. I can't think of any potential change that wouldn't displease many people- that's a recipe for changing nothing. 331dot (talk) 00:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   An such consensus to apply vector 2022 as default did not exist in any way. The community does not clearly support this. Tvx1 01:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   The RfC to deploy had neither of those. No consensus, and as the closing editors noted, the weight of arguments went against the issue of fixed-width, ie. making editors and readers use limited width instead of allowing them to use full width if they prefer. If all the concerns outlined above are satisfactorily addressed[...], the editors wrote. The WMF has not done this. Instead they added a button readers would need to push on every single page, every single time the readers follow a link or come in from Google or navigate to our site. This is comically inadequate, and it's hard for me to understand why readers would actually do so, instead of being frustrated into giving up and unhappily accepting what they find an inferior viewing experience. As 24.251.3.86 said on mediawiki, it's "far too burdensome to be useful or practical, and as such, basically may as well not exist for all the good it does." --Kizor 01:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   readers would need to push on every single page, every single time the readers follow a link or come in from Google or navigate to our site This is false. The toggle stays, at least for me. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   Not for me. Going from 2023 Antiguan general election to Bruno Rodríguez Parrilla to Felipe Pérez Roque to Communist Party of Cuba in an incognito window, I have to toggle full width each time. --Kizor 02:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   incognito is probably the issue, I assume this is implemented with cookies. I'm not sure whether or not this is a problem for the ethos goals though I'm more inclined towards "this is a problem". Aaron Liu (talk) 02:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC) The actual problem is that it doesn't save preferences for those who are logged-out. omg this is so simple why didn't i realize earlier Aaron Liu (talk) 02:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   It does not persist for me, and I have cookies enabled. I use Brave btw. Regardless, it is unsurprising to be behaving differently on different systems, something the developers would have to investigate. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 02:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   @Jeremy Jeremus@Kizor I just realized the factor was whether or not you're signed in. This is obviously a massive problem that probably won't get fixed (save for defaulting to max width) by WMF because of the § Why are there no preferences for anonymous users? section in the faq. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   Reader here (I do not log in, and can't, for various reasons), I'm not enjoying the new design. I had to click that "max width" button 10 times already today. I would prefer the absolute minimum amount of whitespace, I don't get what the point of the padding is, I want to use my whole monitor to read articles. 74.199.75.192 (talk) 04:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   @HAL333, despite a community wide discussion that found there was no consensus for such a change. The ONUS was on the WMF to convince the community and they failed. - from the closure of the community wide RfC: we see community support to roll out the change (though it should be noted that is preceded by [i]f all the concerns outlined above are satisfactorily addressed then).— Qwerfjkltalk 20:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   @Qwerfjkl: That's a pretty important if there, isn't it? Makes it a conditional consensus, with the condition being (paraphrased) "concerns in relation to the width, non-intuitive icons and the language selector need to be resolved in a satisfactory manner prior to roll-out".

   Considering that the width, the non-intuitive icons/buttons and, to a lesser degree, the language selector behaviour are the three major returning themes of the many, many complaints across the various relevant noticeboards and talk pages, they clearly have not, in fact, been resolved in a satisfactory manner.

   Ergo the condition has not been fulfilled and therefore there is no community consensus for this specific roll-out of Vector 2022. AddWittyNameHere 21:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   @AddWittyNameHere, the main issues noted in the closure were the width and the ToC. There were improvements to these (improvements that I don't have the time to find).
   This is hardly, in any case, a damning closure against V22, nor the WMF forcing it on editors. It may not be perfect, but it's hardly worth another huge RfC that is hardly going to be constructive. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:20, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   @Qwerfjkl: You are right, I forgot to add the ToC as another major concern (which happens to also be another recurrent subject of complaints. Such a coincidence). Both the non-intuitive buttons and the language selector behaviour were also explicitly mentioned in the close though. And sure, I don't doubt there have been improvements. That does not make the issues satisfactorily resolved, at this point in time.

   I fully agree it's not a damning closure against V22 or eventual roll-out. It's a "most of the base concept works, but this, this and this needs to be fixed before it's ready to go live as default setting".

   Some complaints, especially from the daily en.wiki editors? Yeah, that's a given with any large change, and doesn't prove much of anything. But when large amounts of IPs and new accounts (read: Wikipedia's readers, rather than editors) go out of their way to find some page where they can register their dissatisfaction, and this dissatisfaction almost always is about the very issues that were highlighted as "fix these first, deploy after", that's a pretty clear clue that things were not, in spite of however many improvements may have been made, fixed in a satisfactory manner.

   Whether an RfC is, or is not, a good idea at this point is a second matter. I can see both good reasons for and against it, and which side wins out largely depends on whether or not the WMF can be expected to actually satisfactorily fix these issues now that the skin has been deployed; and on whether or not there is any chance of such fixes happening anytime soon. (Personally, I suspect "yes and soon" for issues that lean towards the 'it's a bug' side of things, but am not quite so sure when it comes to the rest of the issues, especially because communication from WMF employees so far does not seem to actually acknowledge that certain things are issues in the first place.) AddWittyNameHere 22:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   @AddWittyNameHere, I'm not entirely sure V22 was perfect when rolled out (in fact: it wasn't), but now that it's here, I guess we're stuck with it. Let's just hope that the bugs are resolved and we have a fully-functioning skin (not that V22 isn't functional, and I've never encountered any bugs, but others have).
   Ironically, the main complaint I have is that V22 is too wide. I've somehow enabled something that widens V22, but I prefer it narrow, and I catch glimpses of it when pages initially load. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Also, regarding the large number of complaints, that is probably inevitable, no matter what we do. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Qwerfjkl, I think I can concur with a good portion of that at least from a practical perspective, and the parts I don't quite agree with probably aren't worth further arguing about here, so let's just agree to partially disagree?

   Re:your width issue, check your preferences, tab "Appearance". Is the box before "Enable limited width mode" checked? If not, check that to re-enable limited width. AddWittyNameHere 23:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   @AddWittyNameHere, I agree. And no luck, I have limited width mode enabled. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   WP:FAIT - just because it's been done does not inherently mean it cannot (or should not) be undone. WalnutBun (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   That closure does not accurately reflect community consensus. More people opposed than supported the proposal. There was no clear support at all, but rather strong division. A closure review is warrented here. Tvx1 01:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

2. Comment. I don't yet know what I think about the new skin yet; I'm actually trying it out instead of insulting the developers or thinking I'm smarter than them or cursing at them or any of this other unreasonable hostility. But what makes you think that this RFC will be more representative than the one they already did? Especially since people are more likely to complain than praise. 331dot (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
3. At least temporarily go back Get feedback from outside of the ivory tower. Fix any clearly identified shortcomings. Then maybe try again. North8000 (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   North8000 Community input was solicited and not just from an ivory tower, and there was an RFC that led to the deployment. Disagree with its conclusions if you wish, but it was done. 331dot (talk) 21:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I was referring to on the specifics. E.G. whether or not to bury and hide very heavily used choices, separating out the question of having all of that blank space etc. North8000 (talk) 21:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   @331dot It's not like I care since my skin is set to Vector 2010 still, but RfCs that close with 154 supports and 165 opposes should not be considered a success. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 21:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   LilianaUwU Nothing on Wikipedia is done by a majority vote, but by consensus and a weighing of arguments. 331dot (talk) 21:24, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   And weighing the arguments you still do not get a consensus in favor in any way. Tvx1 01:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and to disagree with how the arguments were weighed. But they were. 331dot (talk) 01:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

4. Support with an asterisk - a solution that I believe would be of the most benefit would be a button on the sidebar to toggle Vector 2022 and Vector 2010, with the starting position being Vector 2022. I've found that Vector 2022 makes WP annoying to navigate on desktop in non-editing capacities, but I recognize that people do enjoy it. However, the freedom of choice for non-users is absolutely nonexistent, and should be rectified. Very weak support. I dislike the change, but with the point made by Terasail and the fact IPs are unable to choose skins, I can only give a weak support. This is a no-win situation, seemingly. Lucksash (talk) 22:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Non users have the same choices users have. According to the information about the skin, there are privacy issues that prevent allowing IPs to choose a skin. Not everything in life can be a choice. 331dot (talk) 22:56, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   My mistake - should have done some reading on the nitty gritty coding. Lucksash (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   What do you mean by privacy issues? I was on the Discord call today and was given to understand that the issue was related to caching - i.e., the site served to logged-out users has to be the same for everyone so that it can be cached. There's no mention of privacy on either the main Wikipedia page or the WikiMedia page.

   (I note that it should be possible to have a persistent setting for at least the amount of whitespace (which seems like the main objection) implemented purely client-side, without significant effects on performance or privacy.) Bakkot (talk) 01:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   there are privacy issues that prevent allowing IPs to choose a skin
   But surely this is fixed by allowing IPs to default to Vector 2010 by choice? By cookie? In essence, opting in to be de-anonymized only insofar as which skin you use. The only argument against this that I've heard is that it uses more server juice. And I find that argument extremely weak. How much server juice will be used by more clicks, more accounts, and more protests from anons who hate this and accounts who default to the old skin? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

5. Strong support – The new style is aesthetically bad and has far too much white space (in what appears to be an attempt to mobile-ify the desktop view); there was no proper consensus for rolling it out; and the old version was not broken and did not need replacing. CuriousCabbage (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   So nothing should be changed on Wikipedia ever, for all time? 331dot (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I say this with as much respect as I can - but do you realize how ridiculous that response is? I'll let you look through Template:Fallacies to see where your comment falls. To help: Just because I may not like a particular new commercial for some product, doesn't mean they should stop making commercials or new products. But hey, to continue to follow your line of thought, maybe we should never have webpages; or computers; or electricity; or technology. All because some edit to some website that you like and someone else didn't was merely suggested to be reversed. - jc37 23:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I find it interesting that people won't answer the question but are criticizing me for asking it. It's not a fallacy because that's what you are implying with "if it aint broke". Something doesn’t have to be broken for it to be changed. I have seen far more comments that Wikipedia looks like it was designed in the 1990s than comments it should stay the same. I am undecided on the skin, but I'm trying it out. There is no change that will please everyone. 331dot (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Not what I was implying at all. But to respond to someone else saying that they didn't think the style needed wholesale replacement with "So nothing should be changed on Wikipedia ever, for all time?" is very much ridiculous to the extreme. I don't believe anyone is saying that. This change is really a package of changes, and in this case, the package would appear to have issues. If I'm served a gourmet meal, but the bread has mold on it, it doesn't mean that I never want another gourmet meal. - jc37 23:25, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   If you are saying changes should be made piecemeal, fair enough- but there is still the issue that no change will please everyone, and doing it piecemeal just draws out the process without making it better. Better to rip it off like a bandaid. The frustration I have here is those saying this was done without community input by dictators in an ivory tower- which is demonstratably false. Disagree with it all one wants, propose all the changes you want, propose ideas for better commuication, that's all great. But seeing the people who worked on this be attacked and insulted and cursed or told "they don't know as much as me with 30 years of experience" for doing their task is sad to see. I just want to see people be civil and have understanding. 331dot (talk) 23:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Changes shouldn’t be made just for the sake of it either. Your reasoning is utterly fallacious.Tvx1 01:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   They haven't changed it for the sake of changing it. There are reasons, if you'd care to read about them. Feel free to disagree, but this was not done without a reason. 331dot (talk) 01:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   Every improvement implies a change. But not every change implies an improvement. Have in mind. 37.134.90.176 (talk) 08:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   That's not what I said. But there is nothing wrong or incompatible or broken or outdated or aesthetically displeasing about the previous skin, and all this new skin changes is (i) to add more white space which makes pages harder to read; and (ii) to make the tools menu collapsible and thus more inaccessible and difficult to use. It may well be that in five, ten years time a restyle is needed to keep the pages looking fresh, or to incorporate some new technology or technical capability which becomes available. But Wikipedia at the moment still looks clean and is still easily usable. This specific re-skin only worsens things which were not broken. CuriousCabbage (talk) 00:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

6. - Support I think this change was poorly made. I'm not against change, just not this one, it should still be worked on and a lot of things corrected. I'm French, I'm suffering this bad design for 2 (?) years now. Of all the thing I resent the WMF for is the total ignorance of negative comments, and a focus on the opinion of a carefully selected few editors. Up until V2022 landed in the French Wikipedia, I was a simple reader like any others, and I think the focus on editors is disheartening, us reader should have a voice in that too, in my point of view this has been decided behind closed doors. DerpFox (talk) 22:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   There is no content to read without editors. The process was an open process with years of comment and studies. 331dot (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Yes? and? Does it make the editors more important than the readers? No, it doesn't. And now if you could please stop trying to silence any dissenting voice from official WMF official version of things, it would be nice, thank you. DerpFox (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I am not silencing anyone and I take offense at the suggestion. I am responding to comments in a civil manner as part of a discussion. I won't be silenced either. 331dot (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

7. Support for now. Major technical issues like mousewheel support and permanent IP settings should have been addressed prior to rollout, the "mystery meat" icons are untenable, and the language buttons are a tremendous step backwards. These issues need to be fixed behind the scenes, not live post-rollout, and this was clearly communicated to WMF in the previous RFC. VQuakr (talk) 23:34, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
8. Support until the issues are worked out, especially the squished content. This was very predictable and very preventable. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
9. Support so long as it remains impossible for logged out users to revert persistently, which if I gather correctly seems to be the case for technical reasons. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 00:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
10. Strong support – Vector 2022 is an eyesore and much more difficult to navigate than Vector legacy. The skin also breaks many pages whose layout was not optimized for Vector 2022. The Web team failed to clearly communicate the change to all active users ahead of time, resulting in the flood of complaints at WT:VECTOR2022 in the past two days. The fact that many editors were unaware of this change until the launch, and/or did not participate in the previous RfC, raises questions as to whether there was consensus to deploy Vector 2022 as the Web team suggests.
11. Strong support. To say that the new skin is horrible is a very polite understatement, you know. Why on Earth they've even started designing this? — Mike Novikoff 00:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    If you haven't already, please see WP:VECTOR2022 for more information. 331dot (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    It's not really interesting. The question was just rhetoric. I'm sure there's a lot of links and even shortcuts to justify the horror, but it's still one. A horror. That I've turned off ASAP. Thanks that we have a link to do so, at least. — Mike Novikoff 04:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    You know, I've just been robbed of Twinkle (for I can't support ES6), so I'm already laying back and thinking of England. Now you want me to try a DP? BTW, it seems to be too much of 331dot around, please stop bludgeoning. — Mike Novikoff 05:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

12. Strong support Shinanoki (talk) 01:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
13. Strong support: I am not as active an editor as I was for a while, but I'm still known as 'the guy who edits Wikipedia' in a lot of places I hang out. The past day has been seeing just a massive tidal wave of opposition from a broad spectrum of readers acrosss...everyone I know, frankly. Absolute eruptions into "this is awful" well beyond what you get from most website layout changes. Readers who prefer desktop dislike the aesthetic of the mobile site (there's a reason you get those bots designed to remove m. from mobile links, given it's apparently beyond our capacities to do it on purpose), and they loathe a new skin that intends to copy the aesthetic of the mobile site. Opt-out stats poorly measure reader opinions on skins, because readers don't have accounts and can't be reasonably expected to make them for every context they read Wikipedia. I have not anywhere across thousands of readers from various walks of life heard a single positive word about the new skin, not even as pushback. I also retain all the many complaints I've personally had about this skin for the past two years; the language icons are terrible, the lack of genuine options in the sidebar are terrible, the image formatting is shot, the amount of whitespace is distracting, the community does not actually support the change, etc. (Every not-community-based one of these I've seen repeated vocally and angrily over the past day.)

    If Wikipedia was a more typical website, it would be fairly trivial to solve the skin issue; we could simply add a dropdown menu for all readers to select their preferred skin. The problem is that Wikipedia cannot under its current ideological/philosophical framework do this, as the compromise would require cookie tracking to allow it to persist between sessions. This results in people who complain to info@ getting told to 'just make an account', which is not a scalable solution (and ignores the fact readers tend to be reading Wikipedia on things other than their home computers, where they still want to see their preferred layout). My ha-ha-only-serious solution is "automatically generate an account for each IP address". If this seems untenable to you, fair enough -- these changes being controversial and hard to individually reverse is precisely why it's bad to force them on literally billions of people! Vaticidalprophet 01:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    You have surveyed thousands of readers? I'd be interested in seeing the results of that. 331dot (talk) 01:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    That's not how it should work. That should happen before not demanded after pushing it out... - jc37 01:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    The Foundation did do surveys and testing. 331dot (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    See mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Repository/Sentiment Survey Aaron Liu (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    It is interesting to see how polarized the Overall Satisfaction responses were, yet the Introduction section was written back in September anticipating Vector 2022 becoming default inevitably and irreversibly. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Their survey only polled 152 people, and of those only 24% told them "the new skin is easier to use than the old one". Not only is that nowhere near a representative sample, but they went ahead with this with just a 24% positive response? WalnutBun (talk) 01:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    What makes you think this discussion will be more representative? It's usually people that are dissatisfied with something that speak the loudest about it, more than people who don't have an issue. 331dot (talk) 01:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    You keep saying things like this, but when the complaint is "The process used to generate this action was bad," a response of "The next process may also be bad" is quite unconvincing. The right way to do this is with broad surveys of all types of users, not 152 people (apparently mostly editors?). 72.49.221.183 (talk) 04:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    This percentage is very large compared to the amount of people who voted that the original skin was easier. The plurality here voted neutral which is why this percentage is so small Aaron Liu (talk) 04:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    One thing that immediately sticks out to me here is that responses with "foul language" were removed. Strong negative responses often use foul language; I am curious how many of the dropped comments were actually irrelevant and how many were "this design is fucking terrible".

    OVasileva (WMF), is the raw data from this available? ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I don't understand what you're saying over here. Before what? Aaron Liu (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

14. Strong support there was not actually consensus for rolling this out in the first place and the new skin is clearly worse than the old one. Since developers are unwilling to allow logged-out users to choose between the two skins, we should go back to the skin that people prefer and are used to. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    It's not a matter of willingness, there are privacy issues with doing so; that information would have to be stored somewhere. 331dot (talk) 01:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    There is absolutely no privacy issue with using a client-side cookie for a setting like that. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    See Wikipedia talk:Vector 2022#Do not force the creation of a user account which is where I read that claim. 331dot (talk) 01:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    No, it has nothing to do with privacy. See mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Frequently asked questions §§ Why is the opt-out link not available for logged-out users?​ and Why are there no preferences for anonymous users?. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I concur, this new skin primarily affects logged-out frequent readers and the least disruptive option should be default for those not logged in. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 01:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

15. Support at least temporarily, based primarily on the "public's" reaction. I do personally prefer 2010 but personal preference isn't the point. The existence of a well advertised RFC in the past does not preclude responding to negative feedback now. With that said, I hope to see the WMF/whoever to respond quickly with either changes to the skin based on feedback or a reversion while they tweak it. SpinningCeres 01:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
16. Support. My biggest issue with this rollout is how it wasn't publicized at all - or, at the very least, not well. I use Wikipedia almost daily (both while logged-in and logged-out) and I can honestly say that I saw no sign of this change even being considered before it suddenly rolled out, and I'm not alone: Wikipedia_talk:Vector_2022 is full of people (and at least one wiki administrator) that were also blindsided by this change. WalnutBun (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
17. Support in the strongest possible way. This action is one of the worst I have seen by the WMF. A RFC was held to gauge support and was ignored completetely. The changed was forced through unilaterally and if the WMF has any remote respect for their community they roll that back asap.Tvx1 01:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    The RfC WASN'T ignored completely, in fact the problem was the community closers misguidedly decided that if the changes proposed by the opposing side were made then the rollout can be done without any new rfc. The foundation simply acted on this misguided closing that they trusted because it wasn't from the foundation. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Then a closure review is warranted.Tvx1 02:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I'm newer to Wikipedia than you, is there some specialized closure review? Otherwise doesn't this rfc suffice as a closure review? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    RfC closure reviews are usually conducted at WP:AN, but this RfC will do. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    There's nothing wrong with WMF in this case, the RFC was closed too fast, which make this misunderstanding. Lemonaka (talk) 02:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Sure the WMF are in the wrong. The closure clearly stated a follow-up RFC was warranted, WMF just ignored that and unilaterally forced the change. Tvx1 02:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    That was exactly what the closure said against, to quote and in our view no further RfC would be required Aaron Liu (talk) 02:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    BTW, even there is a consensus to change back, I believe WMF will not take that. If they really said

    in our view no further RfC would be required

    , then everything is useless.@Aaron Liu Lemonaka (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    @Lemonaka Again that was not from WMF, that was from two esteemed editors unrelated to WMF that closed the thing. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

18. rollback to old version I know that nothing wrong from WMF, but previous RFC is clearly no consensus.
    BTW, I believe if this case is getting hotter and hotter, Arbcom should be noticed. Lemonaka (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
19. Support. As a casual user who's used wikipedia for over a decade myself, I've found the new UI to be aggressively frustrating. I feel like I've been forced to create an account for a website I never had to before to use regularly just to be able to revert the changes. If somehow this rollout could be performed without necessitating account creation to roll-back then It could've gone over a lot smoother with the entire community. As it stands, with no ability to revert without logging in, I find these changes as hostile towards casual users, which appears to be contrary to the entire point of the rollout of changes in the first place...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:9681:ffa0:7002:7aac:8a4b:b978 (talk) 01:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
20. Support until there's an easy way to revert to the old interface without having to create an account. For example, Reddit still maintains old.reddit.com (the old interface which is imo better) alongside the (re-designed) reddit.com -FASTILY 02:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    The easiest way is to use a redirector extension such as fastforward and redirect every /wiki link to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Page_title_with_underscores&useskin=vector and redirect every /w link to a link with the &useskin=vector suffix. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

21. Strongest possible support - mystery meat navigation, breaking things that don't need to be broken, taking control of text width away from the user, pointless whitespace, reduced information density motivated by dubious statistics in a typical runaway example of Goodhart's Law in which measures gradually gain perceived importance until the design is being made in service of the metrics instead of the metrics in service of the design... this redesign has no good features and many bad features. As an autodidact, independent research and amateur historian who views dozens of pages on here per day, and thus something of a power user despite the fact I don't edit the encyclopedia, if I didn't have the technical savvy to create an account to avoid this awful redesign I would have already started looking elsewhere for information as much as possible. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
22. Support until non-logged-in editors can opt out. Any website that I have to create an account just to read is dead to me. Accounts are for interaction. I don't want to remember another fricking password. Now I happen to have an account here. I happen to interact here. This isn't about me, or most people who can find this page. It's about the person who just wants to read about French history or the Higgs boson, and just got this foisted on them, and is going give up on us forever as just another crappy unusable website. Give. Readers. A. Choice. This isn't impossible. If it's non-trivial then revert the change temporarily. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
23. Support Core issues I have with the change are the massive whitespace which serves no purpose and is an overly harsh color for high contrast monitors, the lack of persistence of core settings unlike other wikis with the limited width feature, the poor visibility of the expand button due to it's thin design and it's placement within the otherwise unutilized whitespace where it blends in, and the expanded view having less body visible than the 2010 version. Since there are warnings on the top, I had to find the original discussion on vector 22 on reddit of all places from there I found the solution was to make an account(had one, never really used), or to use third party scripts.Deadoon (talk) 03:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
24. Support Viewing Wikipedia while logged out is painful because while an article used to take up 80% of my screen now it takes up about 50% or so. What a waste of screen real estate. RPI2026F1 (talk) 03:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
25. Conditional Support I am unable to find any of the cited papers that support the claims about whitespace being good in the FAQ for the redesign (Lin 2004 or the Wichita State lab study whose DOI number goes no where). I made an account after almost 18 years of daily use because I was displeased with the whitespace. I would be moved to change my opinion if someone could actually show the empirical studies that support having whitespace for the sake of reading comprehension without sacrificing reading speed. I can get that this is a design principle that many sites have occupied, but I do not see why Wikipedia must join in on such a trend. What is sleek today is aged tomorrow. Vector 2010 seems to me to be a timeless design. Guidethebored (talk) 03:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I believe when I saw the WMF folks cite the sources they were saying the sources said that it slowed down reading speed in exchange for reading comprehension. I recall the WMF folks said they saw this as an acceptable tradeoff. Cost-free tradeoffs are very rare. I strongly disagree with them on this one. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 04:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Below, someone linked me to the two articles: Wichita State and a different article about line length.

    I feel inclined now to change my Condition to Fully Support. The Wichita State study does not apply to Wikipedia; it compares no margins or margins. Wikipedia already had a margin which of course assisted in readability. The other article suggests no correlation between line length and adult reading comprehension. Its Full, Medium, and Narrow paragraphs were variably rated by the metrics of perceived ease of scrolling, concentration, and presentation, with no clear winner at all there. I personally would need to see more to be convinced. Guidethebored (talk) 15:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

26. Strong support. A total step backwards in terms of readability. A majority in the last RfC were opposed to it and only 24 percent of those polled thought the new skin was easier to use. Tkbrett (✉) 04:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
27. Support – I just can't get around the fact that the October/November RfC ended with 154 support and 165 oppose and they went forward anyway. I realize 'not a vote', but I read those comments and I don't see how the closers came to those conclusions. And when I read that closure Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022)#Discussion I thought it at least meant some things would be fixed before roll out. Well, none of the issues I mentioned in that RfC were fixed. DB1729^talk 05:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
28. Support on desktop, the whole thing now looks like a cheap mobile site. Very difficult to navigate and unrewarding UX. Juno (talk) 05:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
29. Strong support. Frequently used tools (even by the casual, no account user) are now hidden in dropdowns and menus. This not only wastes time by requiring that the user open the menu and then scroll to his selection, but makes it less likely that such features will be discovered at all. It would be one thing if the saved space were used efficiently, but instead we get trendy white space. At the very least, input should be sought from casual and non account users with page banners seeking feedback. Kilometers to Verona (talk) 05:26, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
30. Support Employing this mobile version for everyone is just a scam for desktop readers to create accounts. Алхимик Темногорск (talk) 05:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
31. Strong support. Thank you for opening this RFC, which has saved me the trouble either of finding a query I posed a couple of years ago after this change was imposed on some non-English WPs or of raising a new one. I have immediately reverted to Vector2010. I detest Vector2022 for two main reasons. (1) It makes switching between languages difficult and tedious. I cannot emphasise this strongly enough. I want the list displayed alphabetically on the page, not in some sort of thematic drop-down menu; so that I can immediately see whether or not there is an equivalent. This isn't an issue of simply switching between favoured languages, but of multilingual searching, which I do more than most or possibly anyone; see my UserPage. (2) I want a properly usable ToC on long pages such as WP:ANI, not a difficult-to-navigate floating list.

    I only noticed the change because I bought a new PC three days ago, and my preference was not carried over onto it. Thank you again; you have saved me a lot of frustration.

    I am by no means against change, but am strongly in favour of easy-to-find options; and this isn't one. Narky Blert (talk) 06:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

32. Strong support The primary audience of Wikipedia is unregistered or logged-out users, who are the ones unable to change the appearance of the website. I logged in today for the sole purpose of reverting this visual change, and there is likely a spike in logged-in users since this change was implemented. Reddit has their "old.reddit.com" domain that allows logged-out users to use the older appearance, and I see no reason why Wikipedia cannot use a similar method aside from complete dissociation of the website from its community. The ability for the majority of users of Wikipedia to be able to revert the appearance should have been a bare minimum for the implementation of Vector 2022 as the default. This should not be the default appearance until Wikipedia can give unregistered site viewers a simple method of reverting the visual changes that does not constitute logging in or creating an account. GalacticRuler456 (talk) 06:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
33. Strong support There was never a consensus for Vector 2022 anyway. Vector 2022 looks god awful for readers and has worse usability for editors (frequently used links now hidden in dropdown menus). And WMF will tell us that sudden spike in new registrations (because really a lot of people hate the redesign and there is no different option to change it back) would be a success of the new skin, lol. --Icodense (talk) 06:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
34. Support At lease please put the expanded, inline, contents section back. For example: https://imgur.com/a/TULEHvp. --LDF092 (talk) 06:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
35. Support I'm a random user who was sufficiently annoyed at a previous poorly implemented feature change to make an account to complain, and here I am again to yet another ill considered design choice. The design is a mistake. Clearly it is the mobile version of the site erroneously being shown to web users. Why else have tiny text in a narrow strip and vast areas of empty space on either side? Either create a proper web version of the site or revert it back. Ikaruseijin (talk) 07:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
36. Support unless Question 2 is adopted Taking on one of the primary concerns of the original RFC as an opt in toggle is ridiculous. 'You can turn the horrific amounts of whitespace off!' should never be the response to feedback. They should be gone by default. Make a toggle that says "Research supported way to read!!!!" that reintroduces them. Parabolist (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
37. Strongly support: I spent a couple of hours trying without success to revert to something I could navigate easily (e.g. Watchlist on the page rather through an opaque drop-down menu). But you have to understand more than I did to do so, e.g. knowing what CSS, Monobook and original Vector meant. Some of the new features are in fact welcome (for example, putting contents in the sidebar rather than below the lead), but overall, the new design is vexing, frustrating and hard to navigate. If technically possible (in an easier and less-confusing way) let editors choose what's useful or preferable for them. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    @Shakescene While it isn't clear at first glance, the watchlist is already at the top, it's represented by a button with three lines and a star to the left or the user dropdown. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    This is one of my gripes about the new version: why use icons when words will work much better. Why add some of the clear links at the top of the page into a dropdown box (I use the Sandbox a lot and I now have to go through two clicks when one used to do. If I want to go to my watchlist, I have to look at the unclear icons and try and decipher them. - SchroCat (talk) 14:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

38. Strong Support I'm a user who uses Wikipedia several times a day for professional, personal, and casual purposes. I usually stay logged out, as I have no reason to log in unless I would want to participate on a talk page or edit a protected page, which is a rare occasion. I have two major things to say about this. FIRSTLY: the first time I heard about this new skin was today, when it happened, but apparently discussion has been going on about this for months? This discussion obviously excluded the vast swaths (likely the vast majority?) of users like me - people who use Wikipedia constantly but don't ever log in and keep up with the community. This, to me, is evidence that whatever conversations were had were failures - how can daily users to this site have been unaware that this was in the works for months if the conversations had were adequate? SECONDLY: Why is this layout leaning so hard into a mobile-oriented layout? Doesn't the mobile site already exist for people who wanted this layout? My first reaction to this update was to assume I had wandered on the mobile site by accident. If an article has a lot of pictures (like most articles about topics that are even sort of noteworthy), you can barely read a full sentence that isn't split in half by a line break. The last few minor things I have to say: 1) At least the custom-preference option gives me a reason to stay logged in now. 2) I will not, in the future, be donating to the WMF whenever they ask if decisions like this are going to be made with no meaningful (once again, I'm on this site every day and had no clue about this) notice or feedback beforehand. 3) Even Monospace is a better skin than this new one. To conclude, please just revert the default skin back to Vector 2010. People who actually wanted this new one can change their own preferences to reflect it. Teddybearearth (talk) 07:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
39. Support Regardless of the merits of the skin itself, this was forced through with an extremely shaky interpretation of consensus, and should be reverted until there is actual consensus. ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
40. Support for all the support reasons given above, because opposes and badgering like "the devs know better" are not convincing (certainly considering the track record of the WMF devs), and because the new design is a poorer, unintuitive experience, with issues like rarely used options prominently displayed (in text mode even, not as an icon) hile much more common tools are hidden behind obscure icons; all the issues with the "language" dropdown (too many to enumerate here); and the basi, extremely poor design choice to have an extra band of menu items between the article title and the body of the article, creating a "top menu - underlined title - underlined second menu - text" order which makes absolutely no sense. Fram (talk) 09:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Personally I think moving the second menu below the article title makes sense. It's the article container. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    It's mixing contents and menus in an unnecessary and distracting way (I have just switched back to Vector22 to check my reply, and it is even worse than I remembered, with a menu on top, one on the same line ("languages"), and one below the title! I also again checked the "languages" dropdown, and oh boy, what a total mess (test on Prix-lès-Mézières). "Worldwide", I get Spanish, Portuguese, and French. Then a subsection "America", where I get the same languages, plus things like "Veneto" (in America?). Then a subsection "Europe", which suddenly goes in two colums, with a gap in the left side column for no discernible reason. In the section "Africa", French is missing. And so on... testing on Barack Obama: the "Worldwide" subheader means that instead of a neutral, alphabetical order, you now get an order decided on by some developer (I know, they know better, we should shut up) which means that very small constructed languages come near the top (in the "Worldwide" section), while major languages like Japanese are near the bottom. On articlees with few languages, like Miguel Escalona (Chilean footballer), you get a shortened search in the languages, with the text "search for a". Yep, clearly tested, works as expected. Fram (talk) 13:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I still don't see how it's distracting, it's alright for me. I don't get the shortened "search for a" bug and I like to idea of it but WTF is this sorting? Aaron Liu (talk) 13:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Good for you if 4 instead of 2 places to find menu items isn't distracting, nor the "underline the title, then underline the menu below it as well", nor the "hey, we have text menu items, and icon menu items, but we didn't have a text + icon yet, let's use that for "languages"!" anomaly. The infallible developers seem to have mistaken the old "tab" design of the "article / talk / ..." menu line for aun underlined one, and when putting it below the title, have somewhat recreated that look which no longer has any meaning here, and only distracts (the old menu had "article" and "read" in white as active "tabs", and things like "talk" and "edit" in gray as inactive tabs: the new vector tries to achieves this by bolder underlining vs. less bold underlining, which just looks amateuristic. The more I use it, the more I see small issues indicating that this product isn't finished at all; e.g. in the old design, if I open Twinkle (the "TW" drop down) and then "More" (the "Move" dropdown), these stand next to each other: in the new layout, the Twinkle one partially obscures the Move one. Another issue: in preview, you get no TOC??? That's seriously annoying. Fram (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

41. Support The way the change was approved in the first place looks dubious to me. This was a big enough change to justify posting to everyone's talk page asking for an opinion. But it was hidden away on some noticeboard, frequented by some, but not enough to justify the change. Even then, there were many in opposition, with a suspicious concensus. Wikipedia may not be a democracy, but it is a community project and the community was not sufficiently consulted on the change- simply because most people weren't aware. JohnmgKing (talk) 09:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
42. Strong Support. I did not create this account to change Wikipedia's skin back to the good one from this horrid pseudo-mobile "New Reddit" one - if you'd make me do that, you clearly don't want me here, so I'm not even going to bother - I created this account to let you know that this entire debacle demonstrates that you have great contempt for your users, laundered through hokey pseudo-science of the worst sort, and if you're really going to force this nonsense on everyone, ruining what remains of the good that people have created through this institution - something legendary in the whole history of humanity, like a modern day Library of Alexandria, as a particularly shining subset of the internet as a whole - then you are all deep, deep in an unrecoverable stage of collapse. I dearly hope you reconsider. Make me feel like a curious young researcher gathering information on all the most fascinating topics in the world, not like a bored dying man with dementia in a nursing home reading insultingly ugly large print magazines about nothing. Good night. Your Design Is Bad (talk) 09:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Moved this comment up from the Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Vector 2022 Post-Deployment Update from WMF Team section. --Kizor 10:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

43. Support reversion. The many responses I see, from editors and readers, range from "What happened?" to "Please revert" to the unprintable. I see very little praise for the change. Many developers have obviously worked long and hard on Vector 2022, and I thank them for producing an alternative skin which some people will prefer. However, it is very far from being the popular choice and should not be the default. Certes (talk) 10:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
44. Strong support The new layout is a complete joke. Extremely bad, utterly useless. If you do not bring back the old layout, wikipedia is going down for sure. I will stop contributing and using wikipedia from now onwards if the old layout is not brought back.130.88.16.130 (talk) 10:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
45. Support in the strongest possible way. I do not like a bit of the new skin. I do think vast majority of users and editors feel the same as I. I edit both with and without login. How do I permanently go back to the old skin without login? I am simply unable and uncomfortable to edit in the new skin.Sunlitsky (talk) 10:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
46. Support. Not even sure if my IP status allows me to comment, but the new requirement for needing JavaScript to view the Table of Contents is bad. For safety and security I don't have JavaScript enabled on any site, so I can't currently see any ToC, nor can I widen the view with the box icon. Thus diminishing the utility of Wikipedia. Plus having useful links hidden behind unnamed icons that require extra clicks just to see what is there is annoying and time wasting. 113.211.110.53 (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
47. Support While not against a redesign in general, the crazy amount of white space is distracting every-time it loads I think I'm on the mobile version. chiffre01 (talk) 15:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
48. Support The new version has too many problems, especially with regards to inflexibly-wasted screen space. Cosmetic and usability changes are fine, but this one is measurably less useful in many ways than the existing skin. --Jayron32 12:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
49. Strong support. I reverted to Vector 2010 immediately. The old Vector provides for much easier work regarding languages (without having to open a menu to see whether a language version is available), has much less whitespace, and is supported by the developed tools. In addition, I find the mixing of various grays on the same page (sidebar vs the article) a poor design choice. Vector 2022 can remain available to opt in, but it is definitely less usable and less aesthetic than the legacy skin. The only thing that I like about the new skin is the availability of the TOC when scrolling. It is sad that the Foundation has unilaterally imposed its decision on the community without a proper consensus but has not supported it where it really matters (for example regarding tech for Commons). If there is a demise of Wikipedia, it will stem from the ever-increasing gap between the Foundation and the community. --TadejM ^{my talk} 12:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
50. Support As I said in the previous RfC on the matter, Vector 2022 has far too much whitespace and no clear reason for it, particularly when viewing the skin on a large desktop monitor. The toggle to enlarge the page to fill the width of the screen is entirely too small and virtually impossible to notice until you are told that it's there (I know because I tested this, and spent several minutes looking for it). Hiding the languages menu behind an English language dropdown is also of little help to users. In general, there is too much hidden behind icons that, while they may be plainly conspicuous on a mobile display, need to be hunted down on a normal wide display computer screen. Vector 2022, in my humble opinion, should be recalled (at least for desktop users), at least until the Foundation figures out a way to make it possible for unregistered users to select their preferences and have those preferences persist across sessions. The majority of unregisted users do not want to create accounts simply to change how Wikipedia looks; if they wanted an account, they wouldn't be unregistered users. If we want new people to create accounts, it should be done via improving Wikipedia (in all the many ways we might do that), not by telling people to register in order to fix what they perceive as a failure to improve Wikipedia. Pinging @HumanBodyPiloter5. silvia (BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4) (inquire within) 12:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
51. Support. The new design is worse just because of the major waste of screen space. Endianer (talk) 12:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
52. Support on behalf of all the people who don't edit here who have expressed their loathing of it. XOR'easter (talk) 13:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
53. Strong support. What a waist of space on the screen. If you want to change to a different language only 10 out of 100 are shown. For the other languages you have to scroll inside a tiny mini window. --Boehm (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Note: After switching languages a few time it will recommend you the languages you like and there is a search bar. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    No, nothing will be recommended, because I usually clear cookies after closing the browser. And by the way, I do not have a prefferd language. I just want to select myself. Everything was fine before the change. --Boehm (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)#Strong support: There has been a strong negative backlash against Vector 2022 from both registered and unregistered users (e.g. here and here). The new interface has many problems: the width, the lateral TOC, the general impression that it is designed for mobile, amongst many others. Ultimately, the community does not seem to like and approve the new interface.--Æo (talk) 14:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

54. Support: This shouldn't have been pushed out as the default skin for unregistered readers without the accessibility issues being properly addressed. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
55. Strong support - Every single response I've seen to this change from unregistered non-editors has been overwhelmingly negative, which throws any of the suggestions that this was a change for the sake of readers and that the editors participating in the discussion were a biased sample out of the window. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 14:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    For everything, comments will be biased towards negative, since if a reader looks and thinks there is no problem or there’s an improvement they won’t bother leaving a comment unless it’s exceptionally good. There were also reader surveys that indicated more readers liked the new skin. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

56. support – I find the new version interesting but ultimately inferior. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 14:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Or at least make an .old.wikipedia handle with the old skin (it is not perfect either, but much better than this mobile device oriented, hard to read, wasteful, eyeburning white design for a desktop users), this push of new skin onto users looks realy forced and not needed. IJustCreatedAccountBecauseOfThis1diocy (talk) 14:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    As said in the FAQ this is very hard for the resources. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

57. Support while question #2 not being addressed. As an IP reader and editor, aside create an account or programming tweaks, the only way I've found to use the old good UI is to append «?useskin=vector» to every requested URL. 37.134.90.176 (talk) 15:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
58. Support the old 2010 skin as the default. At minimum there needs to be a way to one-click revert (session lasting) to the 2010 skin, and this needs to be available to all users. Not just logged in users. Most users never log in. Wikipedia is dramatically degraded on desktop browsers currently. This really does need to be fixed. 2600:1700:1471:2550:4102:7C99:2804:8FC3 (talk) 15:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
59. Support - The new skin, Vector2022, inferior to Vector2010. The new version may be better for readers, but it is awful for those of us who edit regularly. My tools which were previously visible above the page content are buried now in drop down menus with silly icons that don't make sense to me, I am wasting time looking for things that are now in illogical places. The left hand side bar is definitely NOT an improvement, it's just bad design, and those tools have also disappeared, replaced in some instances with the TOC. The TOC should remain in the article content. I tried it out several times before the offical roll out, and have been testing it since it became the default, and I am convinced that the new skin is NOT an improvement. Vector2010 was not broken, so why "fix" it? Please restore Vector 2010 as the default skin, and call it something else. Netherzone (talk) 15:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
60. Support, I guess... but nothing stopped WMF from deploying the skin regardless of the previous RfC. So I don't expect anything else than this one being chucked away with the usual "resistance to change" argument. At this point I oppose the misguided design goals more than anything else. —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 16:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Again, WMF deployed it according to the misguided closing consensus of the rfc, not against it Aaron Liu (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I didn't say anything about deploying according to or against RfC. I specifically said "regardless of .. RfC". —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 17:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I am confused, doesn’t regardless of… mean they ignored it? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

61. Support in principle, even though it will never happen. The real solution is to create extensions for Scalar that will restore the core fratures of Vector.small jars tc 16:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
62. Support. Tastes do differ, I personally dislike the new layout although believe there are many who accept it. But the way the changes are enforced is plainly insulting. For a long-time editor like me this has been immensely frustrating and I imagine how it feels for unregistered users. The changes must be rolled back. The communication did not happen. The visible and clear notification (not a banner) must be placed in the header, on the main page, everywhere, with an explanation: what is going to happen and what to do. The toggle to switch on or off must be accessible for every user. No dark patterns. A simple form must be proposed to all users: Do you prefer this one or that one. No bad-faith interpretation of metrics. The way it was done it is humiliating. — 2dk (talk) 16:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
63. Support - WMF has fundamentally failed to to bring the community on board with this change. The skin has many well discussed issues: limiting width of content area is absolute nonsense, hiding tools and buttons behind additional clicks makes the experience worse, hiding optout in preferences and then claiming that the optout rate is not high is deceptive, the TOC is worse than before, there are notable bugs, to name just a few. This is all compounded by the fact that logged-out users are not left with any means of using the old skin, and that the width button is non-persistent for logged in users.
    
    Further to this, WMF has show that it has no interest in consensus building or engaging with the community, as is very evident by the fact that when they had an RFC go against them, they ignored it, and decided that no further RFC is necessary since it obviously would not result in the correct answer.
    
    This design is the very definition of form over function. The rollout could have been done much better, by progressively rolling the theme to more and more users and carefully listening to the feedback and monitoring the optout rates. Given that this is a product by paid designers working full time for years, it shouldn't have resulted in such poor reception. WMF should revert this change and try again later when their design is approved of by the community. Melmann 16:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
64. Support - It has been said that this skin is better for readers, however the needs of readers depend on the device and its screen. It is obvious that the skin is something of a port of the mobile interface to a desktop one, an unfortunate but increasingly common trend in today's user-facing interfaces. This is a disservice to desktop users. The driver is not usability, rational design or aesthetics but unified software development, an efficiency (cost-cutting) prerogative. The underlying thinking is that most users read most output on mobile/small/haptic-optimized screens, and they are not going to be bothered much by the change to desktop interfaces. This may not be the case with Wikipedia articles which may be longer and more complex with added media that can be visually and logically better accessed with a larger screen, so that one gets the full impact of the article rather than constantly scrolling (apparent) fragments. This new mobile-to-desktop trend is also ill-suited to interactive sites with anything more than very simple user input. For highly interactive, user-input-intensive functions such as writing prose, adding media, logically arranging an article etc. it is supremely unsuitable. Not all change is good, or even neutral, and one person's progress may be another person's regression. 208.253.152.74 (talk) 16:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    The new skin was not designed with mobile in mind, see the FAQ Aaron Liu (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Ok. But this RfC is an example of my previous comment. Anyone who can follow this discussion on a 6-inch screen with the same comfort and comprehension as in a 26-inch screen is a better person than I am. 208.253.152.74 (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

65. Strongest possible support - What actual advantages does this skin provide that cannot be implemented in a hybrid of Vector 2010? Color blind friendly purple clicked links? TOC on the left sidebar? Images in search? These things are absolutely possible to put into Vector 2010 (and I have the first two via plugins already). A restricted reading width could be a toggled option in such a hybrid. I'm not interested in throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but I see zero reason to keep Vector 2022 as default to maintain these marginal improvements for our end reader at the expense of many extremely plausible downsides. I would also echo Red-tailed Hawk's A/B testing proposal as actual evidence rather than the supposition that has been provided to us. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
66. Support I don't hate Vector 2022, though I do like it less than 2010. I do, though, think it's borderline unacceptable that you have to log in to change between styles. I think that, for as big a change as this is, broader and firmer support should've been built up before WMF pushed the change. I think that trying to enact the change on the basis of very shaky results solicited from ~300 active editors is bordering on the negligent- readers have as much of a stake in Wikipedia's usability as do editors- maybe more, as they're likely to be less experienced at using and navigating the site- and that's a tiny fraction of editors, anyway. For myself, I saw or heard nothing of the coming change that I can recall, and I use Wikipedia every day, and I see multiple comments above to the same effect. I guess that getting a good indication of reader preferences might be hard, but Vector 2022 should not be mandatory or default without a clear mandate from Wikipedia users as a whole. Yspaddadenpenkawr (talk) 18:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
67. Support The previous RFC did not establish community consensus to change the default style. Yet another example of the WMF pretending to care about volunteer concerns, but ultimately doing what they had intended from the start regardless. MrsSnoozyTurtle 21:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose as too soon but also as I find the new skin a substantial improvement over the legacy skin. I don't think the ivory tower comment above is representative of the rollout process. I endorse 331dot's comment as well. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 21:09, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose Although there are some tweaks I would like to see (better line/color use for separation of the UI sections and less whitespace between the TOC and the article) reverting the whole thing is not a solution. If that is our first instinct, there will never be progress. Besides, the proven benefits of shorter lines and the convenience of the sticky TOC are categorically better for most readers out there. Toadspike (talk) 21:47, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose - Any decision about this, now or in the future, should be based on a rigorous reader survey, not an insider straw poll. The pool of people who will fathomably even see this page is a tiny fraction of the number of people who this would affect. Contrary to some claims here and elsewhere, this wasn't some bombshell dropped out of nowhere with no community input; it seems like I've seen several attempts to draw my attention to various feedback processes. Those of us who will actually see this are also the ones who can most easily just change it in our preferences. PS: WP:ONUS, part of our policy on verifying claims in our encyclopedia articles, has nothing to do with this. Live with it a while, provide feedback about any issues or areas that can be improved, and lobby for a good reader survey about it in, say, 6 months (if one isn't planned already). PS: Monobook4everzzz — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:50, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I've been trying out Monobook just to see what all the fuss was about, but I really don't think I can live without the sidebar ToC anymore. V22 4 lyfe!! Shells-shells (talk) 22:00, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I agree, but the issue is that this should have been done before the rollout - not after. WalnutBun (talk) 01:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Repository/Sentiment Survey Aaron Liu (talk) 01:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   I agree with every word of this. (except the post scriptum). Also, an RFC on a somewhat obscure page like this one, can't possibly override consensus formed on a highly-prominent page, which was advertised in a prominent watchlist notice. DFlhb (talk) 09:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

4. Oppose - As I supported the original RfC to add V22, I clearly don't want legacy back as the default. But beyond that, this is a waste of everyones time because the switch has been flipped, the press release has been sent and no RfC anywhere with less than 100% support will get this switch unflipped. A dark mode is more likley to be released tomorrow than this becoming a reality... Terasail^[✉️] 21:56, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   (ec) - And here I thought Fait accompli was frowned upon on Wikipedia. - jc37 22:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Realistically this change was coming if the original RfC had 0% support. It just happens I like the change, but some people just need to accept some changes sometimes. I was watching clips from BBC Archive and people had similar "outrage" over indoor smoking bans and seatbelt enforcement (People don't like change even if it is good for them). This change isn't a deep issue at the end of the day but you would think that the world is ending if you were reading VPT and some other threads.. Terasail^[✉️] 22:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   "Realistically this change was coming if the original RfC had 0% support." - and therein lies a major problem. You tell me, anytime the WMF has pushed something through without actual community consensus and buy-in - how has that turned out?

   That aside, I agree with you - I expect this to be fait accompli, and we're all just going to be like Kermit the frog waving our arms helplessly in the air. But sitting quiet and saying nothing would be wrong. - jc37 22:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Don't get me wrong, if there is data provided a few months from now that the new skin is worse (Unlikley considering these results would have probably appeared from other wikis with it as the default for ~2 years) then I think the change should be made back to legacy vector but the day after the change just isn't the time. Terasail^[✉️] 22:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

5. Oppose. The new design is fine, you'll get used to it. People complain about every website redesign no matter how well thought out it is. – Anne drew 22:42, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   Why does that make me think of lie back and think of England? - jc37 22:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

6. Oppose. The sticky TOC is very useful and my eyes have started adjusting in a good way. Nirzardp (talk) 23:25, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
7. Oppose not based on the merits of this discussion but for the fact that there is nothing to suggest this discussion will be more representative than any other. People should express their concerns and suggestions on the Vector 2022 talk page. 331dot (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   You are welcome to your opinion, of course. But buried on some page away from the VP at this point is unlikely to get response from the WMF, in my opinion. YMMV, of course. - jc37 23:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

   I'm fairly sure that WMF accounts have been posting at the talk page of WP:VECTOR2022; I haven't seen one here. 331dot (talk) 00:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

8. Strong Oppose: WMF has been responsive and painstakingly taking feedback on the designs and using data-driven arguments/research for what would benefit our readers. Thoughtful feedback by editors have been incorporated, for example the option to include/exclude margin space. Ultimately experienced editors always have the option to opt out/switch vector skins, but it is our main users, the readers who are not actively in these discussions whom we must have in sight. For what the vector skin does, it is barely a change and I would encourage WMF to be even more aggressive and bold in future. The fact mobile editing/navigation/talk page headers is still broken for so many users bothers me far more than this petty quibble about CSS. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
9. Oppose. I really don't think this is something editors should decide; leave it to developers and more importantly ask the readers. And it is truly, IMO, too late now. Besides: I'll keep using old Vector, but is this change so horrible? J947 † ^edits 01:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   If they have the power to roll it out, then they have the power to un-roll it out, at least technically. The only reason they couldn't is because it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 01:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   Well yes. But imagine the shitstorm which would arise if the change was reverted. If it's truly a massive problem, then wait a month or two and then – fill the dreaded whitespace with a reader poll on whether to keep the change or not. J947 † ^edits 01:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   How would that cause a shitstorm? If anything, waiting a few months to roll it back would cause a shitstorm - reverting the change now is the right move, not waiting and giving people the time to get somewhat used to the change before ripping it out from under them. WalnutBun (talk) 01:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   Unfortunately I have seen many comments similar to what Donald Trump said, "I know more than the generals do"- people who think they know better than the developers. 331dot (talk) 01:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   The real problem here is developpers who think they know better than their community members what these members want and just refuse to listen to their complaints! Tvx1 01:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   That is demonstratably false. 331dot (talk) 01:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   The developers may know more about the technical details of the implementation, but they certainly don't know more about the summation of individual preferences and aims than the collective whole. This is analogous to the classic problem of centrally planned economies. Pure appeals to authority can only go so far. Sure, perhaps the dev team has a whole bunch of data about how decreased information density has xyz benefit and abc tradeoffs, and they also believe the benefits outweigh the costs (one-sided tradeoffs are extremely rare). But, if we disagree on the respective importance of those benefits and costs, then all the statistics in the world have no authority. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 06:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

10. Personally, I oppose undoing the improvements that the new skin brought. On behalf of users sans accounts, a reversion shouldn't take place without seeing analysis of all anonymous users versus those who've edited to voice objection to the change. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 01:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
11. Strong Oppose: The new skin IS better, even though there is excess whitespace. Polls from both editors and readers have shown that less prefer the old one. I also fail to see the argument against limiting the text width and the new ToC. Additionally, though this did not contribute to my !vote, this RfC was way too preemptive. It was started less than a day after deployment, which means that a lot of people could simply need to be accustomed. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
12. Oppose I had some issues with the new skin, and they have been fixed. I like being able to know what the readers are seeing. Tired of the wingers and the knockers. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
13. Oppose The "Enable limited width mode" should be disabled as the default for all readers, logged in or not. I think that'll get rid of most of the complaints about the new skin. Some1 (talk) 01:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    This is my primary issue with the skin itself, but it won't fix the lack of communication that preceded the rollout. WMF claims they put up banners for almost a year before the change - I never saw anything of the sort, and I know I'm not alone - check Wikipedia_talk:Vector_2022. WalnutBun (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I agree with this. Andre🚐 04:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

14. Oppose The people who know enough to vote here know how to change their skin. The design team has a lot of incentives to get things right for unregistered accounts and so even if it's not there yet - and I suspect it's not - they'll get there. I wanted to like this change, I found it broke some things I can't live without, I've gone back but that doesn't mean I should impose my preference on a much larger set of people. And I say all this despite the fact that I think the WMF team has made it clear, despite statements to the contrary, that our feedback doesn't matter. Bad form on them for sure. But that's not a reason to rever the change either. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Could you please clarify? I've read your comments a couple times now, and they seem to say: "The WMF did this badly on several fronts and this change is causing me issues personally, but that's ok, let the change stand simply because it's already done, and they aren't listening to us anyway."

    What am I missing? - jc37 03:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

15. Oppose. It's a fine, reader-friendly, long overdue change. Enterprisey (talk!) 02:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
16. Oppose as I find it a much welcome improvement over the old skin. Lightoil (talk) 03:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
17. I think the best path forward is to keep the Vector 2022 skin in place as the default skin and work on improving it. The design team owns the default site appearance and thus can set the guiding principles it wishes to follow. The community can continue to give feedback on the metrics that should be gathered through user testing (to supplement the user testing that has already been done) to evaluate the efficacy of the default skin. isaacl (talk) 03:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
18. Oppose It is a fine skin with some important improvements. --Enos733 (talk) 03:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
19. Oppose. Wikipedia has been due for a refresh in its design for a while now, as standards in web design have shifted since 2010. In order for me to support a reversal, I would like to see compelling evidence that the new design is truly detrimental to readers, rather than just procedural arguments (e.g. WMF should have started a new RfC first) or personal preference (e.g. preferring the old design simply because you're more used to it). Two independent media commentators have written that the redesign is "barely noticeable" and "doesn't rock the boat", see [1][2]. Sure, it would have been ideal for the WMF to start a second RfC and get affirmative backing from this community before turning it on, but I do not believe the new skin is so severely bad that we need to roll it back, rather than fix it forward (i.e. fixing issues with the new skin in place). Mz7 (talk) 03:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Didn't catch the irory behind the cited comentators? 37.134.90.176 (talk) 13:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    There is none, unless you show me how the heck this is ironic. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

20. Oppose. Not necessary. Just configure a different skin in your preferences. I was using Monobook for a long time and I still might go back to it, tho I'm giving Vector 22 a try right now. Andre🚐 03:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    To use preferences, one must make an account and use it wherever you might read wikipedia from. If people are making "single purpose" accounts to fix this and complain about it, that should be an indicator of a bad design. Otherwise you are stuck having to use third party scripts, addons or otherwise, as have been suggested in other discussions. The bookmarklet and url modification methods are stopgaps at best, and are among the worst "solutions" provided for ip users. Deadoon (talk) 04:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

21. Oppose. I have chosen to return to the legacy Vector skin until a few of my personal efficiency bugbears have been sorted but I recognize that the new skin has substantial improvements. People have howled at website redesigns with objective improvements since the dawn of the internet. Change is scary, but it's also life. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
22. Oppose - not sure what everyone else is reading, but when I Google "new Wikipedia layout" and read literally anything written about this today, the universal opinion appears to be that it is a barely noticeable but welcome change. I reverted back to the old one, but it seems clear to me the general public likes this. If anything, they think it's not enough of an update. Levivich (talk) 05:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    This recalls to me the idiom: "eat shit, four billion flies cannot be wrong"... Sorry, I can't resist... 37.134.90.176 (talk) 14:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

23. Oppose. Wikipedia was long overdue a design update. People were complaining when we switched from monobook to vector, the cycle is repeating now. his is just knee-jerk reaction against any change, give it some time and people will get used to it. Personally I will continue using legacy vector until it is broken to the point of being unusable, but the way active editors like me use Wikipedia is very different from that of an average reader. I think this change is an improvement for readers, something which people in real life has agreed with me. There is room for improving vector-2022 of course, but rolling it back is not useful. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 06:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
24. Strong Oppose (aka No, Just No) - (TLDR: Vector is old/broken, the newer skin looks better and is more usable to casual users, and the team behind it is responsive, just saying I don't like it isn't the way to go) I think the community here has a very strong false assumption that everyone likes seeing Wikipedia the way wikipedia editors (i.e. mostly power users) like to see it. As primarily a Wikipedia reader, this skin is a much better than normal Vector since it has a familiar layout similar to the myriads of technical blog sites, tech news websites, documentation etc. It allows you to consume content without actually having to turn ones head on a widescreen display. Additionally, the ability to choose ones layout even as a IP basically gives you the ability to customize the style you want for reading even without having to log in.
    
    Also, from a purely technical standpoint, rejecting this skin will be a big blow to our ability to modernize our interface with newer technologies and providing a better experiences by eliminating technical debt. If you personally don't like please shift to a different skin/old Vector, don't block what is arguably better both for users and the technical growth for the project.
    
    Additionally, based on my personal experiences, the team rolling out this change has been extremely receptive to feedback and has helped immensely in integrating older tools and has made extensive changes to accomodate the same (c.f Wikisource ProofreadPage integration). I think we made a concerted effort of reporting bugs and issues (via phabricator/vpt etc) instead of doing whatever this is, we would be able to reach a equilibrium much faster. -- 07:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    (note that I am involved in the technical side of the project and have interacted with engineers as well as written multiple patches for ProofreadPage and associated Wikisource related technical issues) -- Sohom Datta (talk) 07:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

25. Oppose - what's done is done. It would be a better use of our time to try to improve Vector 2022 with bug reports and suggestions. The dev team have made it clear they're not going to just abandon this new skin, and they've also already responded to various concerns, such as through the addition of a width button. Anarchyte (talk) 08:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    A width button that may as well not be there for all the good it does, since if you're not logged in, you have to toggle it for every single page you read every single time you open the site. That's not a solution, it's a way to frustrate people into giving up viewing Wikipedia the way they want to view it. --Kizor 09:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

26. Strongest oppose possible – See Wikipedia:Vector for déjà vu. Changes will invariably break things, and if we don't want to break things we might as well don't try anything new in the first place. If you hate this new skin, you can switch to the old skin. Here are a few more reasons why:
    1. The developers do listen to feedback and is really responsive, they've learned from WP:VisualEditor deployments and has made a concrete plan on how to redesign the skin
    2. The new skin reduces friction for readers to digest information
    3. It's ergonomic for editing Wikipedia once you've gotten used to it

    A lot of the support comments are made by people who are behind the technology adoption life cycle and may need more time to adjust to the changes. I, myself, used to dislike Vector 2022, but I've gotten used to it since then and like the changes. CactiStaccingCrane 08:35, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Evidence to support my claims:

    • Slate – Wikipedia’s Redesign Is Barely Noticeable. That’s the Point.
    • Engadget - Wikipedia's first desktop design update in a decade doesn't rock the boat (updated)

    CactiStaccingCrane 08:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I am a professional software engineer. Don't presume anything about others that you don't know. I am very familiar with technology. I also think the trend in the past decade of reducing information density at the expense of everything else is terrible. Clearly, many agree with me.

    And no, contrary to your comment on my page, I will not stop voicing my opinion on the redesign. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 09:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

27. Oppose. This is pointless grumbling. The English Wikipedia community has the final say on the content of the English Wikipedia. It doesn't have the final say on the software it runs on. Nobody likes design by committee and design by community is even worse. The WMF web team have been extraordinarily patient in soliciting and acting on our feedback up until now, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt and let them do their job. – Joe (talk) 09:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    It does, and since WMF didn't dismiss swwwiki's appeal to revert the change(WMF said they'll "discuss it") this is clearly possible. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Tha that WMF (rightly) asked us what we think about a change does not mean that they're ceding the decision on it to us. I don't think there's much harm in the RfC (except hammering the wedge between enwiki and the WMF even further in) but I guarantee you it won't get Vector 2022 scrapped. – Joe (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

28. Strongest oppose possible. This RFC is balderdash. The idea of "voting" on redesigns is as nonsensical as voting on Duchamp's Fountain. UI design is based on objective principles, not on what a loud minority thinks. Objective feedback can only be obtained through revealed preferences, i.e. by measuring opt-outs. This pushback is caused by resistance to change, not by any objective attributes of the new design. Logged-in users also have no basis to complain on behalf of hypothetical logged-out users; just switch it in your preferences. And no matter the outcome, this can't possibly override the close of the previous, far more prominent RFC. DFlhb (talk) 09:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
29. Strongest oppose possible This is a terrible idea. Revert to a technically backwards skin? Really? I switched to Vector 2022 some time ago and have never regretted it. I'm a long time editor with 249564 edits so I have a lot of experience with different skins, and this is by far the best one I've had. Maybe there are some things that can still be improved, eg people complain about a width issue (which I don't have), but the developers have been responsive and I'm sure will continue to be. And this RfC should have at least waited a few weeks for obvious reasons - a lot of people are uncomfortable with change but ever a little while see it as ok or good. Doug Weller talk 09:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
30. Strongest oppose possible Supporting a revert is what keeps us humanity from evolving and making progress. Coldbolt (talk) 10:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    This change wasn’t progression in any way.Tvx1 14:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    How not? Pioneering the change to mustache, adopting newer design guidelines, floating a bar and toc for easy navigation, images in search… Aaron Liu (talk) 14:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Not all software change is progress. Reverting it's redesign could have saved Quora from decline, but it's management refused to listen to the wishes of it's volunteer community.–small jars tc 17:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

31. Strong oppose - Everyone hates change at first, but i, for one, quite like the new design; it’s just a few sensible updates to bring Wikipedia into its third decade and account for ever-widening screens. (I do agree with some that it would be nice to give IP users a way to toggle the theme!) MarijnFlorence (talk) 11:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
32. Oppose (for the moment). There are a few things not to like at the moment (the default to a narrow view, for example, although that can be altered) and it's taking a bit of time to get used to, but change is normally difficult to accept at the start. One fix I would like to be implemented is to deal with the lack of user links in the top right - having talk, sandbox and contributions hidden in a dropdown is a backwards step for editors (although readers won't worry about it too much) If there is an option for users to decide what links can appear in the top right (and what to consign to a drop down), that would be a step forward. - SchroCat (talk) 11:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
33. Oppose for now —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
34. Oppose. I voted against rollout, but am now fairly neutral on the redesign as my main single complaint (the limited width) was addressed. I think the majority of end users will, once they find the toggle, choose unlimited width (hence my contribution below), but I think Vector 2022 is an improvement. I am opposing for now so we can collect more information. JackWilfred (talk) 12:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
35. Oppose. But this highlights issues with the rollout, and why ~50/50 rfc's make for fragile consensus at best. – SJ + 14:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
36. Inhumanly strong oppose. Every change is going to be met with discomfort at first. But as with all UX/UI changes, we eventually adapt.--🌈WaltCip-(talk) 14:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
37. Oppose. If you want to revert, set your preferences. Cabayi (talk) 13:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    As many said, no preferences for non-logged users. Must every reader or editor have an account here, against their own desires? 37.134.90.176 (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

38. Strong oppose - My views align with those expressed above by Shushugah. In this case, the new design aligns with internet accessibility principles and modern design guidelines which I think sit above crowd wisdom. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 14:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
39. Strong Oppose: So the proposal is to force Vector 2010 upon all users because "WMF is forcing Vector 2022 upon all users" (just like they forced Vector 2010 and all other skins before that). I say: unless you can measurably prove that V2010 was so much better switch back to old Vector for yourself and get over it. Imagine cars, sky scrapers, ships and airplanes were designed by popular vote... Ponor (talk) 14:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I don't think this situation is comparable to designing a car or an airplane. It's more akin to deciding what is built in your neighborhood, e.g. whether to build a community garden or a parking space. Which is usually decided by some sort of democratic(ish) approach between actual people living in the neighborhood. Not how to build it, that's the job of engineers. RoadTrain (talk) 16:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I think it’s more like whether to use sprawling parking or compact parking with multiple floors Aaron Liu (talk) 16:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    From day one it was Jimbo or WMF or whoever deciding what our "cars" would/should look like. And they left us with some choices: if you like Lada, you choose Lada, if you like Mazda better, you choose Mazda, and if you want to stick with your old Ford, they give you the option to stay with Ford, it's all here Special:Preferences. If we're about to impose the look on other users, are we any different than WMF? What do we base our decision on, the votes of a few loud ones on this page? Ponor (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

40. Oppose per WaltCip above. I don't care for the new skin either. But lots of time has gone into hearing and implementing community feedback. Let's give this six months and see how many of us get used to it. Ajpolino (talk) 15:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
41. Oppose. I believe we should focus on resolving potential problems with Vector 2022 instead of arguing which skin should be the default, because the latter mostly depends on personal preference. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 16:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
42. Oppose – I've been using Vector (2022) on the Mediawiki project since it was changed to default there and made no attempt to change it back to Vector (2010), and have just switched to it on our private wiki but left the system-wide default alone. I want to use it on Wikipedia too, but I cannot just yet. I switched it back to Vector (2010) and use a browser bookmark for the enwiki login using the old skin. Easy-peasy! There are many things I LIKE about the new skin and I can appreciate all the work and long hours that went into its development. I see room (literally) for improvement, and I know that this will come in due time. Although I understand the passion, I DON'T LIKE some of the behaviour towards others. Perhaps they feel it's needed just to be heard. I also noticed that some who participated in the RfC feel like they too were ignored. There may be a need to look at that more closely. Finally, for IP users, giving them a “switch to old look” hyperlink might be worth considering. — WILDSTAR^TALK 16:54, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
43. Oppose – Vector 2022 is not perfect, but I think its flaws have been blown significantly out of proportion. Switching back and forth is more likely to cause confusion among casual readers than any benefit it might deliver. RunningTiger123 (talk) 17:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
44. Weak oppose – I do actually think the fixed width is a significant improvement in reading experience on wide monitors at least, and something worth exploring further. It's the other things about the new skin that I don't like, namely the "simplification" of the UI due to the lack of visual contrast between the article body, TOC, header and everything else. –Sonicwave ^talk 18:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
45. Oppose for two main reasons:
    • This has been in the works for quite some time and has been successfully in use in other wikis; given that, had I voted in the previous discussion, I would have said "yes, go ahead and make the changes for the sake of the common reader, even if I will keep using legacy Vector". If anything, I'm more bugged that logged out users will see two different skins depending on which wiki they're on, though by all indication, this won't be a problem in the long term.
    • There are some things that I like better about Vector 2022 - the search bar showing images and short descriptions, the left-hand sidebar being collapsible, and the sticky header and table of contents. The look and feel is something I'll have to get used to, as are the new link colors (which I know were altered with color-blindness in mind); this is a given. It just goes to show that WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT are both opposing forces grounded in subjectivity.

    I can tell there was a lot of thought put into this new design, and while some aspects are understandably controversial, I am at least happy improvements have been made; I remember the logo placement/spacing being awkward in older versions, but that is happily no longer a problem. I doubt the WMF would reverse this regardless of this RfC's outcome, and I imagine the complaints will die down after some time, but people have voiced their concerns, and if this goes through, that's just the way it is. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 18:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    About Vector 2022 being "successfully in use in other wikis", there have been witnesses from the French Wikipedia (the first on which it was implemented) and the Swedish Wikipedia testifying that it caused strong grassroots opposition from the respective communities, which were largely ignored. Æo (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

46. Oppose. There are some things I like about the new UI, some things I don't, but everyone should give it some time to get more used to it. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
47. Oppose - the new layout is better than previously, and will improve when changes already underway (esp. around page width) have been addressed. I agree with others about change being scary - lots of the above comments reminds me of the hullabaloo about the Facebook redesign back in the day! Turini2 (talk) 20:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Neutral. As a (younger and more tech-savvy?) user who's been using the skin for more than half a year, I've gotten used to it at this point. The whitespace margin issues that are plaguing many others I've solved for myself by enlarging text for the domain, and the only real gripe that I have at this point is not having a persistent hidden table of contents across pages, which is being tracked on Phabricator. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   Enlarging text size was the solution I also implemented. Personally I've always been a fan of the skin. Moxy- 02:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   There's a checkbox in the prefs that really fixes it. Andre🚐 04:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

   I was made aware of it a while back, though at a much later date than my own fix. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

2. Neutral. As much as I don't like the new skin, it's not like I can't change back to Vector 2010 (and I did just that). However, I'll echo other people who say that if single-purpose accounts are created for the sole purpose of changing back to an older skin, then the design might be to reconsider. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 05:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
3. Neutral I changed to Vector2022 few days ago and it is somewhat mixed experience. There are things I like (table of contents on the left), things I don't like (watchlist etc. buried behind icons) and things I don't care (whitespace - I prefer smaller paragraph width anyway). That is on 2560x1440 display with 150 % UI scaling. My other devices use lower screen resolution (1366x768 on notebook and 1280x1024 on Pegasos 2) and my intention is to thoroughly test Vector2022 with these computers during weekend. Pavlor (talk) 06:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
4. Conflicted/Neutral I don't know how I feel about this in all honesty. On the one hand, I got used to Vector 2022 after a bit and didn't really mind it. However on the other hand there appears to be major backlash to this change (yes it might take a bit for people to get used to it but we don't know that) and a general opposition from the community. So I'm not entirely sure. Wikipedia is supposed to be sort of community based, however if the community doesn't like it then should we ignore them because statistics say the new skin is better or should we listen to them? I might add to this !vote later on as I compose my thoughts more on this matter, but for now this is how I feel. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

RfC discussion

• Revert to MonoBook, my favorite skin Why stop at 2010 vector? I use MonoBook which was the default before 2010 Vector, so let's go back to my favorite skin. It's also still the default on BulbaPedia, one of the largest Pokemon wikis, so at least one other large community agrees with me that Vector 2010 was inferior to MonoBook. This is all tongue-in-cheek, of course, because none of this affects me as a MonoBook user. I didn't like Vector 2010, so I changed the settings to use a skin I did like; I don't see how that's not a solution if the complaints are mostly aesthetic. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Wugapodes A big complaint I see is that IPs or users who rarely edit don't want to(for some reason) have to log in to use their preferred skin. I have to log in to my bank website every day to see how much of my money they have, I don't see how this is different. 331dot (talk) 21:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm a strong proponent of unregistered editing, but if a reader feels so strongly about the aesthetics of a website, creating an account to save their preferences seems like a reasonably common trade-off all things considered. Unregistered editing comes with many, more serious trade-offs that those editors must accept---disclosure of IP info, unstable attribution, susceptibility to range blocks, limited participation in project governance---so I don't think adding "susceptible to decennial skin changes" is something I find too onerous to put on unregistered editors. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Corporate policy at work is 'no personal accounts on corporate computers' - and getting a corporate account is very nearly impossible. This isn't a case of 'do not want'; it's a case of 'not allowed by policy'. 192.157.110.190 (talk) 02:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

That's a thin reasoning. You can always use "Bill from Corporation ACME" as your username. I don't think the community will find fault in this username scheme unless you are WP:COI. – robertsky (talk) 03:16, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Corporation might not like that though. "Only authorized people are allowed to represent the company" sort of thing. Anomie⚔ 15:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: I think the RFC asks the wrong question. As I said in the previous RFC, if the WMF would just make "wide mode" the default instead of opt-in, there would be much wider acceptance of Vector 2022. As it stands, if IP readers want "wide mode", they have to click the toggle (if it appears for them; it does not appear in some wide browser windows) on every page. There is no persistent "wide mode" for logged-out readers. If "wide mode" becomes the default, an IP reader who wants a persistent narrower mode will only have to shrink their browser window. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

....which kinda goes to the root of the problem here in that there is no single change that every user will approve of. Improvements can always be made. Suggestions offered. This isn't the end, it's the beginning. People could at least try it out, the WMF says most of its testing showed that people got used to it after a few days. People use it for five minutes and see a single change they don't like and then curse the developers or say they are stupid. 331dot (talk) 21:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

They needed/need to seek more and more specific feedback and integrate that into the design process. Nothing about curse or stupid. Some people might be quicker to get angry due to past history of WMF ivory tower and high-handedness incidents and that such seems to becoming systemic. North8000 (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough- and I thank you for your civility- but asking for broad community input on every minor change is a recipe for disaster and obstruction to changes. I saw far more complaints that Wikipedia appears like it was designed in the 1990s than calls to keep it the same. 331dot (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

The absurd amount of white space in Vector 2022 is, and always has been, the primary objection to it. I haven't done a full count, but the first ten out of ten Oppose comments in the RFC mentioned the width problems, and they have not been fixed adequately. Many of us have tried to advise the WMF that making the white-space version opt-in rather than (sometimes) opt-out would greatly improve acceptance of the new skin, but our words fell on stubborn ears, unfortunately. As a result, we get lots of drama instead of a few fun, geeky conversations about how to tweak tools and menus to make them compatible with the new skin. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, asking for input for every minor change would be needlessly bothersome - but changing the default skin for the entire site is not a minor change. WalnutBun (talk) 01:54, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: The complaints about the new Vector are in some ways strikingly similar to the complaints about the new Vector. Shells-shells (talk) 21:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Plus ça change... — Qwerfjkltalk 21:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the link, that's a fascinating read. A lot of those comments about Vector 2010 are indeed strikingly familiar: "This is a new-Coke Wikipedia"; "the new style is just plain ugly"; "I think there is too much white space"; "WP has made the mistake of starting to follow website fashions"; "I'm exceptionally unhappy at being forced to log in"; "I will no longer be using Wikipedia"; "Will consider boycotting Wikipedia from now on"; "NEW FORMAT IS TERRIBLE. I'LL QUIT WIKIPEDIA!!" I have to wonder how many of the same people are complaining this time around. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 23:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

  Shells-shells, it's like being a 17-year-old high school student again, accidentally sent 30 13 years into the past in Doc Brown's time-traveling DeLorean. Thanks for the link. — WILDSTAR^TALK 04:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  ❤️‍🔥 – SJ + 05:35, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Shells-shellsI got confused by this for a moment, pretty sure you mean the complaints about Vector in 2010. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Aaron Liu I intended to be deliberately ambiguous for rhetorical effect. In both cases the "new Vector" is being complained about, but in 2010 that phrase had a meaning slightly different from what it means now. Shells-shells (talk) 16:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, nice Aaron Liu (talk) 16:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for this link for those of us who weren't around so long ago. The similarities are fascinating and I can't help but think that, much like how all the complaints on those pages seemed to start fizzling out after about a month, this too shall pass. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 20:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Are there statistics available about the number of reverts to the legacy version? The Banner talk 21:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
  • @The Banner, 20% in the beta tests (I think). — Qwerfjkltalk 21:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
  • At WP:V22RFC we find the statistic: On average, 87% of active editors across our pilot wikis (incl. French and Portuguese Wikipedias) continue to use the new skin once they try it. This appears roughly in line with the statistics on Vector 2010 when it was first deployed to enwiki: The opt-out rate is estimated from 13% to 22%. Shells-shells (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

    Is this stats for editors, or users in general? In particular: does that include accounts created by people who formerly browsed Wikipedia anonymously, and created an account solely to opt-out? 192.157.110.190 (talk) 02:16, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    I believe it includes all user accounts. There is also a poll for IPs that visited specific pages on this wikipedia at mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Repository/Sentiment Survey Aaron Liu (talk) 02:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

    Good find, Shells-shells! However, if I remember correctly, Vector had some button or other way to go back to monobook which made things easier than having to find the option in Special:Preferences. I remember that years later some WMF staff wondered whether the sizable group of people still using monobook was influenced by this early feature. So the same figure 13 % may have different meaning in the two situations. Other discussions of numbers are at Why was the sentiment survey gamed?, Impact, Re: The iterative design of the Vector interface: the case of moving interlingual links. Nemo 07:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• This isn't a minor change at all. Nothing close to previous changes in usability in my opinion. So to sit up and spout platitudes isn't helpful at all. Sorry.

  I find several style choices make the new version nigh un-usable, or at the least un-helpful and counter-intuitive. And I'd like to consider myself fairly computer saavy enough to navigate a webpage. I really dislike the moving of the table of contents (especially for talk pages). I never thought I'd see the day where the focus of a change to Wikipedia was to reduce navigation ability. - jc37 21:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Jc37, but the point of moving the ToC is to aid navigation ability (as I'm sure is mentioned in the RfC). — Qwerfjkltalk 22:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

  I am happy to believe that was the intent. But's it's a pretty decent fail in my opinion, if that was the intent. So many of the changes seem to be to hide useability from the user. extra clicks, extra motion. This is not how to encourage people to engage in your website. - jc37 22:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• WP:CONEXCEPT remains pertinent reading from the first RFC, even if you happen to believe that RFC displayed no consensus for a rollout. Izno (talk) 22:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, but one would hope they would use CONEXCEPT sparingly. I'm not sure that's been the case in the last 2 years. As they say, ultimate power only exists so long as you rarely use it. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment – I'm frustrated that WT:VECTOR2022 was not notified of this RfC. An RfC was already being drafted at WT:VECTOR2022#‎Requests for comment/Reverse deployment of Vector (2022) before HAL333 jumped the gun and started the RfC themselves. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Notice a post from a WMF account, Wikipedia:Village Pump (technical)#Vector 2022 Post-Deployment Update from WMF team. 331dot (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• This is a clear case of WP:CONEXCEPT per meta:Limits_to_configuration_changes. Anyways, Timeless or bust. Legoktm (talk) 07:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Legoktm The swahili wikipedia already did this. They successfully passed an rfc to revert this because they didn't have the manpower to update help images. And WMF's response was not to immediately deny per your link, their response was to "discuss it". So I think this is an exception to that since the default skin IS being changed. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Aaron Liu: to clarify, I think this should fall under CONEXCEPT. The WMF has recently decided to hypocritically switch its longstanding stance on this position after most recently using it to deny switching to a volunteer-driven skin, for reasons I've elaborated elsewhere. Legoktm (talk) 18:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Here's what I'd suggest: at least temporarily bring back the old one, and have for a time on the main page at the top (like those "please donate" messages) a message saying "do you think wikipedia should use the new or old skin" (and include a link to the new/old versions). If the majority is new, change to the new version; if the majority want the old version, go with the old version. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Do an A/B test. We can simply A/B test Wikipedia with the new skin vs the old skin, and specifically ask readers which skin they prefer in an up-or-down manner. If the answer is the new skin, then it would not make sense to switch back from the new skin. If the answer is the old skin, then it would make sense to switch back to the old skin. An A/B test should not be challenging to implement whatsoever (just randomly assign 20 of the top-viewed pages of the past week and you should get a good enough sample), so I hope that this information would be clarifying. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  There was some sort of survey at mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Repository/Sentiment Survey but the results seem to have been obfuscated by WMF. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  I'm aware of that, which is why I'm asking for a straight up-down A/B test and survey. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Question #2: If Vector 2022 is kept as default, should unlimited text width be the default?

• Support, although I prefer option 1: reverting to the old design. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 04:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. This seems by far the most complained about feature and switching it would make it more similar to how it was before. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 05:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. It seems to be one of the chief complaints about the new skin. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Limited text width looks horrendous in wider screens and distracts from the reading experience. It should be opt-in, not opt-out. Carpimaps (talk) 06:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support ~ HAL333 06:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support, as the excess of white space is the main concern with V22. —El Millo (talk) 06:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support, though I would be upset if the other problems with Vector 2022 go unaddressed, particularly the difficulty in navigation and the all-white design. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support main complaint of the readers, though I'd prefer finding a solution for the newly created navigation issues as well. --Icodense (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Very strongly support — I designed and composed many tables, over many years, to the then-existing page-width. Some of them still look OK, but others (see List of pre-World Series baseball champions and Demographics of South Africa) are impossible to read completely without endless left-to-right scrolling or shrinking the page to 75% of normal. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:16, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, ILIKEIT and it's better for reading according to the research mentioned in the RfC. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• ILIKEIT very much describes the pro-2022 crowd, and on the topic of that "research": Lies, damned lies, and statistics. ~ HAL333 07:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
  • @HAL333, and IDONTLIKEIT describes the anti-V22 crowd. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Touché. ~ HAL333 14:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
  • You can prove anything with statistics except the truth. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support Unbelievable that this wasn't the default to begin with. It's practically unusable without it. Parabolist (talk) 07:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Clearly the new design has to be reverted but the most egregious design flaw is displaying everything in a thin strip down the middle of the page. The text should... by default... fill the majority of the page. Fixed width blocks of text is so 1990's when screens were only 80 characters wide. Ikaruseijin (talk) 07:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Strong Support This new design clearly must be default-reverted, but if it isn't, the massive whitespace drowning out every article is by far the biggest design flaw in this new one. It's hard enough to read the thin strip of text as it is; if the article has pictures (as most articles about notable topics do), it's nearly impossible to coherently follow the flow of the text.
• Strong Oppose - There's a button to make it fullscreen if you want (even for IP's) and the width actually makes sense on a widescreen. -- Sohom Datta (talk) 08:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  No, that button doesn't work for IPs. I just logged out and tested it out. You have to re-click it every single time you load a new page. And it seems that the dev team has no interest in fixing this, even though all it would require is a cookie and a few lines of JavaScript. Furthermore, the button is an instance of mystery meat navigation, and it is small and hidden in a very inconvenient location all the way at the footer of the page, below the bottom of the article. On a wide screen monitor, like on any other monitor, if you want narrower text you can resize your window. The redesign hides that ability for all but patient (have to re-select on every new page load) and competent (find mystery meat button hiding in weird corner) IP users. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 08:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  @IWantTheOldInterfaceBack Is there a phabricator task for the bug that your describing here ? Sohom Datta (talk) 08:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  I have no idea what phabricator is. I created this account yesterday to get the old look back. And from what I can tell this is perceived as a "feature", not a bug, since it is allegedly impossible to store a simple cookie and ten lines of javascript for IP users due to "caching issues" or something. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 08:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Right, sorry about that, but phabricator is where you report to developers if you have a issue with the Wikipedia interface (link to bug reporting teplate). Once it's on Phabricator, engineers can follow up and solve the issue at hand (much like issues of Github etc).

  Also, whatever you mentioned about "caching issues" is unfortunately probably a fairly valid explanation, since the solution using ten lines of Javascript is going cause a FOUC (flash of unstyled content) where the layout changes after it has been rendered (leading people to believe that the site is slow/sluggish etc). To do this properly, you need some kind of server-side mechanism to figure out which layout the user wants before each and every page is rendered, which imo is slightly difficult when your having to do for one of the world's most popular sites :( Sohom Datta (talk) 08:26, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  For context, currently we just have one version of a page which are cached in Varnish servers which is then served to everyone (with the cache being refreshed periodically), which is a lot less server intensive. -- Sohom Datta (talk) 08:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  As a wide screen user I would say the width actually makes no sense on a widescreen. As any other widescreen user, anyone, who wants to keep less info on the screen can use multi-window layout or narrow their window. There is no reason to force users. This is wikipedian, not facebook. 193.239.57.118 (talk) 16:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support I've just spend 15 minutes to use an account I've almost never used to try to understand why this limited width is enforced. On a 16:10, 32 inch screen, wikipedia is two mini columns barely readable embedded in a white page. The full screen button is a joke, as soon as you change from a page to a new one, it resets to the limited width. Only after login in and setting my preferences to full width, it becomes usable. You cannot seriously think that all wikipedia users will create an account and login in right? You may have another kind of problems if we would all do so. For the rest about vector 2, I am not well enough into editing to complain. But clearly, the designers knew the problem of the limited width and of the folded left menu, otherwise they would not have added a button to unfold the menu and another one to extend the width. The major bug is that the status of these buttons are not cached and are reset at each clicks. Please, fixed that urgently. It is pretty clear that most of the complains are only due to this, mine included. What an oversight!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eatdirt (talk • contribs)
• Agree. I think this is a good compromise, especially for such a drastic change. I think there should be a button that allows the user to enable "reading mode", which removes the clutters and present content in a fixed width. CactiStaccingCrane 08:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Most browsers have that built in these days. Nobody has to bother reimplementing it. ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  ...and the ability to reduce window width has been built in since the dawn of graphical operating systems.–small jars tc 17:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Support I switched my vote in the original RFC from oppose to neutral because it sounded like the width thing was going to be solved. It sounds like it was solved poorly. ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Oppose. Fixed-width layout is a pretty common way of formatting articles on the Internet these days. For example, almost all common news websites use it to format their articles, e.g. The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal. Think about how much whitespace there is looking at a Google search result page on a large monitor—theoretically Google could fill up the entire page with text, but the fixed-width layout centralizes things and makes it more readable. A similar concept is applicable to Wikipedia. I'm sure it looks a bit wonky for us editors who have been using the old style for decades, but in reality, the fixed-width layout is not the unambiguously detrimental feature that others are making it out to be. Mz7 (talk) 08:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Crowd-sourcing encyclopaedia articles is a fantastic idea. Crowd-sourcing web design... not so much. Leave it to the professionals. – Joe (talk) 09:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Limited-width text is good, but this should be limited to text. Instead, the new skin limits the width of everything, putting infoboxes, images, tables and other non-text items into the same narrow strip of content, with white all around. Either we redesign the website to put non-text items on the empty sides, or limited-width doesn't make any sense. By the way, I would support a real redesign which would move infoboxes, images etc. on the sides and limit the text width. --Ita140188 (talk) 09:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. Regarless of vocal pushback, limited content width has been widely upheld as a fundamentally good design principle across the entire field of UI design for more than a decade. It's great for accessibility among other reasons. Practically every website has a width limit. Apple.com does. NYTimes.com does. WashingtonPost.com does. Google.com does! Only UI designers are qualified to objectively evaluate the merits of this; the rest of us are just expressing resistance to change. I used to hate the limited width too, but now I like it.

The idea that the limited width breaks tables, or that these tables now require scrolling, is also simply false. The tables are not affected by the limited width, and will take up the whole width of the user's web browser.

As is, I don't believe this question could lead to a binding consensus; this needs to be based on surveys of non-logged in users, which the WMF should go out of its way to conduct, in order to reassure detractors. edit: Nope, I'm satisfied with the surveys which were already conducted. DFlhb (talk) 10:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Only UI designers are qualified to objectively evaluate the merits of this Only artists can critique art, only game developers can critique games, movie directors can critique movies, writers can critique books, and so on. The general user who has to experience that has no say at all? Apple is only limited width for a section, google uses full width at 1080p when you search(and their email is always full width), nyt and wapo uses much more as well. Wikipedia is the most constricted version of any I have encountered, and has no mechanisms for using that extra space either, even fandom will fill the voids at the edges with wiki-art and ads. At ratios higher than 16:9 1080p, it becomes a tiny island in a sea of blindingly bright whitespace, with a practically invisible toggle that doesn't even work when logged out nestled in the corner of all that whitespace. Deadoon (talk) 11:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Contrary to what you say, every page I list rigidly limits page width for contents (not other page elements). And yes, non-designers can claim to speak objectively ("this is worse!"), but what they always mean is simply "I don't like it". Interface design is objective, and has nothing to do with personal tastes, yet the entirety of the opposition to the redesign rests on personal taste and preference. DFlhb (talk) 14:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The enjoyment of the design is subjective, claiming objectivity in matters of opinion and subjective matters is the most disingenuous thing you can do. In your opinion the design should only be evaluated by people with a some nebulous qualifications and everyone else should be thrown in the trash and ignored because apparently the general public doesn't matter. Great "opinion" you have there. I guess third part developers will love all the new traffic they get to their addons, scripts, and other tutorials on how fix this problem, afterall that is what is leading many people here, a near doubling of user accounts created, looking for solutions to a problem that didn't exist a few days ago. Deadoon (talk) 15:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Wrong. Users can limit the width at the browser level if they are some weirdo who doesn't want their widescreen monitor to actually output widescreen content. There is zero justification for this enforced low-information default. It's terrible design. My desktop is not a phone. Stop treating it like one 2600:1700:1471:2550:4102:7C99:2804:8FC3 (talk) 15:26, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

For reference, WMF's response to that argument in the FAQ is Most users don't resize their browser windows or use browser plugins to improve the design of the websites they view. Wikis should be good-looking immediately, in their basic form. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• In most cases, limited content width is used, not to improve reader experience, but to fill the periphery with commercials. I fear that with Wikipedia—one of the last bastions of uncommercialized space on the web—adopting this format, they will soon follow suit and cram it with ads. ~ HAL333 16:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose — It’s easily the best part of the new design, and just good design sense. MarijnFlorence (talk) 11:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support The whitespace problem is a distraction. Narrow content space is fine on vertical-oriented phones, where the phone doesn't have whitespace on the sides. In a horizontally oriented monitor, it's fundamentally a waste of resources to leave so much of the screen unusable. By leaving the width to float to the maximum width of the device, it conforms naturally to the user's own setup in a way that is most useful. If users wish to increase their own whitespace for their own preferences, let them... The default should be to fit each device best, not force a one-size-fits-all design onto a multitude of devices for which it is not well suited. It's also my only real complaint about the new Vector skin. I actually like many of the design and functionality choices, and would return to using it if the screen width problem was fixed.--Jayron32 12:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Would solve a few of the primary issues I have with the design. The whitespace replaced with functional content, and the toggle between no longer being extremely isolated giving it some semblance of contrast. Even with the black on white design, text alone is more than enough to break up the blinding nature of the background and make it less painful to look at on high contrast displays, compared to the extremely pale gray of the standard whitespace. Although it would be less able to utilize the space provided, considering the toggle takes up it's own unique margin, and itself doesn't compress when expanded.Deadoon (talk) 12:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support. The excessive white space is literally the only problem I have with the new skin. Endianer (talk) 12:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support, at least temporarily Though I personally dislike the new aesthetic, and agree with the sentiment of not fixing what isn't broken, I recognise that part of why I may feel that way is likely influenced by me just being used to Vector 2010. But there are some aspects of the redesign that really bug me outside of the aesthetic and the big white space. For example: why is create account always visible on logged out screens but log in is hidden behind a menu? My issues with this redesign include the aesthetic, but also the functional. I don't think it works the way it is.Xx78900 (talk) 12:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support This is the basis of almost all complaints I've seen from end users about Vector 2022, and the reason I opposed it in the initial RfC. We sort of accepted that we as editors weren't the intended audience for the limited width and that this was something that would work for end users, but that does not appear to be the case. JackWilfred (talk) 12:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Definitely. The excess white space is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) problems with the new design. The toggle button isn't consistent, and casual readers shouldn't have to be forced to create an account just to disable the option in the Preferences. Limited width should be opt-in, not opt-out IMO. Some1 (talk) 12:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

*Support I think the foundation have their approach entirely backward. They've made the change and are waiting to see how many people hate it enough to revert back to the previous skin; this is an incredibly low bar for classing the change as a 'good idea.' I propose that they revert the default to the previous design, advertise the new skin, and measure what proportion of people like it enough to change to the 'new' skin voluntarily JeffUK 13:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• @JeffUK: Notice that this Question #2 is specifically about the width problem. Was your vote/comment intended for the general RfC (above) about the restoration of Vector 2010 as the default interface? Æo (talk) 14:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Ack, it was. I blame the new layout! Thanks. JeffUK 15:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support.--Æo (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support Too much white space, too hard to navigate, the previous 2010 design was simpler, more manageable on a wider variety of displays, rather than this newer version which looks like a poor mobile-display conversion. Also, so many people have written about it in the Teahouse, unsurprisingly, but only actual users with accounts can opt-out, that's clearly a bad idea. My first instinct upon seeing the new design was to turn it off. ButterCashier (talk) 14:35, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Sub-rfc void - Considering the low participation I expect this sub-rfc to get, I don't see how any consensus here should or could affect the site-wide skin features. While I see how the community can vote on if the skin becomes the default or not, I remain unconvinced that the community should or could vote on specific features like this, especially (IIRC) the option to toggle the particular feature is possible. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 14:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Also notice that this sub-RfC seems to be creating confusion in some users, who are voting here thinking that it is the main RfC. Æo (talk) 14:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Correction: could vote -> could vote in a way that is binding. And if it is not, as that is the de facto state of the large rfc, there is no reason for this to 'double up' a previous, wider consensus. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 14:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  If you're not logged in, the toggle must be pressed on every single page, every single time you come here. For the vast majority who read Wikipedia without registering an account, it may as well not be there for all the good it does. --Kizor 15:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Kizor, I understand, but how does that affect the relationship between this RfC and the previous one? — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 16:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  This is a WP:CENT-listed request for Comment. This question is neutral and brief, and I see no reason why the RfC is anything other than valid. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Ixtal: Please don't poison the well by declaring the RFC "low participation" when it's only a few hours old. I will note that at my count, in less than a day, we've had over 50 comments. Don't know if the rates are going to decrease or not over the next few days, but even accounting for gradual slowdowns in participation, we're still likely to hit WP:200 or WP:300 levels in a week or so; that's pretty much the definition of a "High participation" RFC. I mean, vote how you want to vote, but don't tell everyone who hasn't voted yet "Don't bother, your vote doesn't matter". That's rude and uncalled for. Let people make up their own minds what they think, and don't try to nullify their opinions before they even give them. --Jayron32 19:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. First of all I don't think this RfC can or should be binding since this change overwhelmingly affects non-editors who will not participate here. That being said there's a lot of evidence that limiting the line length improves readability. If you prefer full width, there's a button to toggle that. My only complaint is that the full-width preference doesn't persist between pages and on reload for IP users. Surely that preference should be stored in a cookie or something. – Anne drew 14:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  I'm echoing my comments in question one above. I've seen a lot of references to the evidence that limited line length improves readability, but I can't actually find any of the papers being cited in the documentation for the new design (Lin 2004 and a Wichita State lab study were both cited by outbound links). Do you happen to have that evidence or can point me toward it? Guidethebored (talk) 15:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Reading Online text 2004 Wichita State Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you very much! Guidethebored (talk) 15:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Hi @Anne drew Andrew and Drew - we're working showing the toggle at lower widths right now (expected to roll out next width) and investigating what progress we can make on persistence, see our update below for more info. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 16:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  If you prefer full width, there's a button to toggle that.
  Why not have a toggle for restricted width? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, line length has been limited for centuries. Data&science based decisions, anyone? Ponor (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support as an IP reader and editor, while no better solution found and implemented. 37.134.90.176 (talk) 15:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Unsure on one hand this is the biggest complaint and the button doesn't persist, on the other hand this is the entire point of including this as the default and as a fact it is better looking. I'm not sure what to say on this. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support, because the line width shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how I (and, I believe, many others) use Wikipedia. I am usually an early adopter of new interfaces. The sidebar TOC here is an improvement, in my opinion (even though it's still buggy). The width is not. I'm a lawyer in my day job, and lawyers (especially appellate lawyers) are heavily invested in making their briefs easier to read and understand. (Have you ever been on #AppellateTwitter? It's a trip.) I am intimately familiar with white space. My briefs use low-density fonts, are left-aligned rather than fully justified, don't use blockquotes or ALLCAPS headings or unnecessary defined terms or acronyms, and so on. These have been daily considerations for me in my professional life. What I've come to realize over the last few days, though, is that I don't read Wikipedia in the same way or for the same purpose that I read a legal brief or judicial opinion (or a novel). I almost exclusively *scan* Wikipedia. High information density is very important to me here; it's a feature, not a bug. I want the maximum possible amount of information on my screen when I am doing the kind of reading I am doing on Wikipedia. I want to be able to see the nearby headings for context (which, again, is a mark in favor of the sidebar TOC). The width works against all of that *for the type of reading I come to Wikipedia to do*. Here's a simile that may help illustrate the issue. Reading is like eating. There are lots of different reasons I eat. Sometimes I eat to fill my belly; sometimes I eat to fuel myself for a hike or river paddle; sometimes I eat for pleasure. I eat differently in all those situations (respectively: more high-calorie-density and protein-rich foods to fuel a hike; mainly low-calorie-density, high-fiber foods like vegetables for everyday living; sugary sweets and confections for pleasure). I read for different reasons too, and *why* I'm reading matters to *what* and *how* I'm reading. The change in width is like forcing me to eat celery when I need to be carbo loading. So while I absolutely understand "giving the reader a break" and "slowing down the firehose of information" from most documents, I'm understanding now that it just doesn't make sense for this site. Jeffreynye (talk) 15:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Hear, hear! I come here specifically FOR the "firehose of information". If I want a break, I close the browser. I really don't appreciate having these self-appointed efficiency experts hobble the reading experience because they believe they know what I'm looking for better than I do myself. It's analogous to the information problem of top-down economies in a different form. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 15:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support - The white space problem is significantly disruptive to my editing experience. Netherzone (talk) 15:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support My biggest gripe with the new skin, and why I'm using the legacy version. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support I went to dig up my old account for this, because I do not approve of this change. Of the changes, I don't particularly mind the decision to add the ToC to the side, but the huge amount of whitespace is horrible for my experience reading articles, and makes it feel like I'm using a mobile website. If that was changed, I think the new Vector would be a much more acceptable design. SkyAmp6 (talk) 16:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support This would fix one of the bigguest problems with it. The other being hiding and burying some of the most heavily used menu items. North8000 (talk) 16:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support–Constriction is not a feature.small jars tc 16:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Establishing unlimited text width as the default would resolve what is, in my opinion, the primary problem with the moment-to-moment user experience of Vector 2022. See also Jeffreynye's thorough and eloquent explanation of why unlimited text width is particularly suitable for the Wikipedia environment, as opposed to that of other text-focused websites. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. This is the single biggest gripe with the new skin, and it is something that the majority of editors wanted at the RfC that was held on whether or not to move to new vector. If this cannot be achived upstream in the skin itself due to a lack of willingness by the WMF, we can simply use common.css to keep this fixed for everyone until switching the default in the code (something that is technically trivial to do, by the way) is implemented. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Anonymous readers do not have a way to set a preference for wide-screen viewing, and the limited width was by far the primary objection in the rollout RFC (read through the oppose votes, and you'll see that 90+% of those who cited a specific problem state that the width is a problem). The previous RFC would have sailed through as "support" if the width problems had been resolved, and the limited width continues to be the primary objection among post-rollout commenters. All of the incompatibility with tools and scripts for us power users can be resolved. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. This is the #1 reason why Vector 2022 is bad. Restricting width like this uses so little screen space at the expense of any customizability in width to the user. If anything, it should be default expanded width and then a toggle button for restricted width. I see no quality evidence that this improves readability beyond the cherry-picking provided by WMF. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Even after pressing the button, it's still too narrow for my taste. There's nearly an inch of white space to the left of the text and about half an inch to the right. Just give us widescreen, get rid of the button, and let the small minority of users that want a restrictive narrow column find it in the settings. Fix these issues and I'd accept Vector 2022 as the default. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose – Fixed width is actually the main part of the new skin that I prefer over the old one (and the sole reason I started using it before its official deployment). IMO this would just make it a worse version of the old skin, with the lack of visual borders between the content, TOC, header, and everything else; just a sea of white. I do agree that the non-persistence of the width toggle is annoying. –Sonicwave ^talk 18:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Publicizing this RfC

I've notified Wikipedia talk:Vector 2022, Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), Wikipedia:Village pump (technical), and Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF), but most users do not watch those pages. How can this RfC be publicized to as many users as possible? I'm thinking mass messages to all active Wikipidia users, is that feasible? InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Also notified Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022). InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

And mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements. Not sure if notifying WP:AN is in order. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:AN would make sense to me. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

NO, do not use mass message to publicize this rfc, that is using a hammer to crack a nut that will result to the displeasure of many.

There's an essay at WP:Publicising discussions. I have already done {{Centralized discussion}} and I started a discussion for adding it to watchlist notices(the latter of which one editor objected to). I don't think this warrants a site notice though. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware of the essay, but I'd argue this is an exceptional case since it literally affects the entire community and the millions of users who use the English Wikipedia. The closest comparison I can think of is ArbCom elections, which also uses MMS, but even that does not have as large of an impact as a UI change. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

This RfC isn't THAT significant. Just following the guidance under "...affecting the whole community" and "General..." would be enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It is extremely significant. It affects every single page view by every single user, whether logged in or not. That's billions of impressions daily. This is far more significant/important than whatever esoteric internal governance issues appear to be the subject of the other RFC solicitations linked at the top of this page.

Consider that most internal decisions presumably don't have tons of people creating new accounts just to argue against the decision. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 02:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes but mass messaging and 100% sitenotices would spam every user. Your proposal below is better. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

If not all active users, at least everyone with extended-confirmed permissions or above who has made at least 5 edits within the past three months. Heck, we could even just reuse the mailing list for last year's ArbCom elections. Any other method would be too passive, and we can see how that approach failed last time. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Fully agree. These changes effect everyone and everyone should get a chance to weigh in on it. I still support a site-wide poll for the next week to get the best possible data about where users' stand. 2600:1700:1471:2550:4102:7C99:2804:8FC3 (talk) 21:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Proposal: use some mechanism (perhaps a random number generator?) to send an alert to 1 out of 100 pageviews soliciting feedback. Qualitative feedback is far more useful than the design team's dubiously meaningful statistics anyway! IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 02:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@InfiniteNexus: In my opinion, this RfC was a bit rushed and not well-thought-out. It would have been better to plan carefully how to advertise it to all users, both registered and unregistered. Also, while RfCs are not polls, I think that it would have been better if the comments were split into two sections, support and oppose, and numbered as it was in the previous RfC. Æo (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Separating into sections was what we were planning to do, as being discussed on WT:VECTOR2022, but then another editor jumped the gun and created this RfC without even consulting WT:VECTOR2022. If they had, they would've noticed the discussion where the RfC was being drafted. This was the format that was being planned, which is far superior in my opinion. It was also intended to be hosted on a standalone page, but I'll save my comments on that matter at Wikipedia talk:Village pump (proposals)#Move Vector RFC to subpage. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

What's stopping us from switching this RfC to a support/oppose/discussion format? It's still new and managably small, reordering the !votes into categories would be a bit of work but I could do it. Plus it would probably solve the issue of people mistaking question #2 for where to weigh in on #1 - that's rapidly become a problem. --Kizor 17:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of is the sheer volume of new responses causing Edit conflicts. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I've worked in articles for ongoing disasters that had far greater volume of edits than this. The volume here is not ideal but it's manageable. Move a couple dozen at a time, incorporate the edits that happened during the switchover. There'd be a bit of disruption during this, but a lot less, I think, than from leaving things as is. We need to take action to differentiate question #2 and any & all further questions from the main event. Should I get cracking? --Kizor 18:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

InfiniteNexus and another user have proposed to move the RfC into a separate page (cfr.). I think you should reorganise the comments while moving them there. Æo (talk) 18:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we should keep those jobs separate. Trying to do both at once would probably lead to more disruption, not less, and take longer, meaning more potential edit conflicts, meaning more time spent sorting those out, meaning more potential edit conflicts, et al. This may not be rocket science, but it still calls for keeping payloads small. Also, do you know how long it'll take to get the support to go through with the move? --Kizor 18:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that the move will require many support votes to be done, after all a formal RfC in the style of the previous one is what they were planning since before this RfC was opened. But, if InfiniteNexus agrees, proceed with the reorganisation. Then this entire page will likely become a redirect. Æo (talk) 19:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

InfiniteNexus is in favor. I'm pulling the trigger on this change. Brace yourselves. --Kizor 19:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Note that this rfc was not from infinite nexus but from Hal 333 without much communication or deliberation. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Note: feel free to reword the text to question #2 for clarity if necessary (of course without changing the substantive meaning). I'm not super familiar with all the jargon used around here and I've been using "skin", "design", and "interface" interchangeably. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I think it was great as-is. But I just changed "the new design" to "Vector 2022" to be a bit more future-proof and remove any need to debate skin vs design vs interface. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Allowing for IP users to change the skin back?

Maybe we should create an easy way for IP users (and all Wikipedians) to be able to switch back to the old look? I know if I turn my skin on to Vector 2022, on the side, there is a button that says "Switch to old look." We could maybe do something like that with cookies. It seems like at the Teahouse, there are a lot of IP users complaining about the skin. ‍ ‍ Helloheart ‍ ‍ 03:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The stated objection is the increased load on the servers caused by the need for more caching. I have outlined some possible technical solutions to this here (ctrl+F "particular items that have been listed"). IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 03:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

They have a $100 million dollar endowment. I think that's sufficient to get servers that can do that. ~ HAL333 06:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree that there should be a way that they can implement preferences like that. It shouldn't be impossible given that https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MobileOptions&returnto=Main+Page exists in mobile. CactiStaccingCrane 08:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Its possible but i doubt that will happen as i think the WMF wants more registered users and I wont be surprised if they remove the ability of IP users to edit or even to read articles in the future Qwv (talk) 10:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

That's particularly funny since the WMF has generally been then one pushing back against community attempts to limit edits from IPs. Nil Einne (talk) 15:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I have outlined some possible technical solutions to this here
here is a permalink to your comment. I agree the argument against having skin-specific cookies for those who wish to default away from V22 is extraordinarily weak. We wouldn't need to cookie everyone, just those who wish to go back to V10. And any server usage increases must be weighed against those increases attributable to new accounts who wish to default to V10, increased clicks and reloads from navigation issues, need to have expandedwidth toggles, etc. It's not a decision that's made in a vacuum.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. If their current technical staff can't handle this then they need to do some new hiring. They have plenty of money to do so. 2600:1700:1471:2550:4102:7C99:2804:8FC3 (talk) 21:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I think any such creation of this should be handled upstream, not with any sort of hacks here. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I find it hilarious and sad that, after spending the entire year begging me for money, you then go and make a chance like this which makes me LESS likely to come here anymore. I'll get my information elsewhere. You aren't the only wiki in town anymore, fan wikis often have far more information anyway. 2603:3023:180:4800:112D:D97D:8F55:28B3 (talk) 18:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

This could be done with cookies but it would be very clunky, and I wouldn't support doing it on the server end since one user's preferences would stick to the next user on that IP address. Just as is the case with just about every website on the internet these days: if you want to save preferences, create an account to save them to. Otherwise you get whatever defaults the website gives you. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Vector 2022 Post-Deployment Update from WMF Team

Hi everyone - we have posted an update to the technical Village Pump with some information about the deployment, responses to feedback we've received so far, and some upcoming changes we will be making to the skin. We encourage you to check it out and leave any comments or questions. Thank you! OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 01:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

You really should be rolling back this unwanted change instead.Tvx1 01:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

If it's unwanted by you, change to the old skin. There are people who do want it. Personally I am undecided, but at least willing to try it. 331dot (talk) 01:54, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

As Daß Wölf put it in the previous RfC: "We can't pretend the settings are accessible to everyone when the user would have to go through all the steps of creating an account and logging in to use them. That would be a dark pattern." --Kizor 02:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

That cuts both ways, though. We have several officially supported skins, and you can only set a different default if you are a logged-in user; whichever one we choose as default forces some IP users to either put up with their less preferred skin, or create an account. People were just as upset by change when old Vector became the default, but today people are just used to that being the default interface. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It only cuts both ways if we don't allow cookies to default a skin per user-agent. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I mean, this works both ways. If it was wanted by you, you could have just switched to the new one. No need to impose it on everyone, including those without accounts. RoadTrain (talk) 04:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. There is no reason to make a highly contentious change like this a forced default. This should have been an option for those who like the new skin, not a forced global one. 2600:1700:1471:2550:4102:7C99:2804:8FC3 (talk) 15:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Here's the thing. There are those who like Vector 2022, and there are those who hate it. For what reason should WMF favor those who like Vector 2022 over those who hate it, besides the fact that the new UI was designed by the Foundation? In XFDs, if editors are divided on what to do, the discussion is closed as "no consensus" and no action is taken. The page doesn't automatically get deleted or moved. Why should this situation be any different? InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Very much glad to see the feedback heard - hope to see Vector '22 refined to a state many more will be happy with. Lucksash (talk) 01:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

• If this RfC fails to find consensus for the WMF's BOLD decision, will you respect the community and return to the STATUS QUO? ~ HAL333 06:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  To ask the same question more pointedly - if consensus turns out to actively exist in favor of reverting the change, and English Wikipedia implements such a reversion, will the redesign developers respect this, or will they forcibly overrule said reversion? (it's still a very open question how consensus will turn out, since it's been less than half a day and non-account-holding users of Wikipedia have not yet been notified of this discussion in any way, shape or form) IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 06:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  At the very least, the WMF should try to take a measure of IP user sentiment, maybe through a click poll on the front page. If the readers like the new skin, I will gladly yield. I'm on Wikipedia for the reader, and most editors are. ~ HAL333 06:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  They've been doing that, and are continuing to do it, and have shared the results. That's how they know that, e.g. from the post linked in the OP, the sticky Table of Contents made editors 53% more likely and readers 46% more likely to navigate across multiple sections of a page. Levivich (talk) 06:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Those numbers alone mean nothing. I suspect that the 46% and 53% numbers refer specifically to navigation via the table of contents in particular, excluding navigation by scrolling up and down. This is no surprise, since the massive empty space introduced in the redesign makes scrolling much slower. This does not tell us anything about whether these users like or dislike the redesign. Stats alone can be massaged to manufacture almost any narrative. They tell us much less than qualitative feedback. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 06:54, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  It's not numbers alone, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022)/More about Vector (2022)#Process for developing the new skin has an overview about the testing, mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Repository has links to reports about specific tests, and Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Vector 2022 Post-Deployment Update from WMF team is the latest update. Levivich (talk) 07:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

  Don' tsee any basis for a survey on the overall change. And specifically for the fixed-width, that should be measured through revealed preference, i.e. the amount of people clicking full-screen mode. A survey would only capture resistance to change, and would yield nothing informative. DFlhb (talk) 10:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

As has been stated above, this RfC is a psuedo-review of the previous RfC's close. I'm not convinced that the closing comment interpreted the results of the discussion accurately (i.e. that there was consensus to roll out Vector 2022 if a limited-width toggle is added), and the comments on WT:VECTOR2022 indicates that many users did not even have a chance to weigh in on the RfC, which means the RfC may not have been representative of the entire Wikipedia community. I agree that if this RfC closes as "no consensus", WMF should restore the old skin immediately. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

And to reiterate my comments at WT:VECTOR2022#‎Requests for comment/Reverse deployment of Vector (2022), a close that does not end in the Web team's favor will not close the door on Vector 2022 being re-deployed in the future. If Vector 2022 is rolled back, the Web team is welcome to improve the skin to address the concerns raised here, come back with a follow-up discussion asking for more feedback, and then after most concerns have been addressed, a third RfC can be held. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

When are you guys rolling back the Vector 2022 update? Thanks! AdmiralBeans (talk) 07:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@AdmiralBeans WP:CONSENSUS has not been reached. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Or a lack thereof. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Aaron Liu you didn't ask for our consensus when introducing it either, did you? 2dk (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The consensus was misinterpreted on the previous RfC. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm surprised it didn't get taken to WP:Close review. But I guess WMF is the law of the land. That closure smelled to me of "regulatory capture" e.g. the closers closed with a bit of deference to what WMF actually wanted, even if not told to do so, and even if subconsciously so. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Introducing what?@2dk

If you’re talking about the new skin, I am not affiliated with WMF in any way. Also, the skin change was abiding by the misguided closing consensus at WP:V22RFC. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)