Examine individual changes

'{{Skip to talk}} {{Talk header|archive_age=240|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}} {{Vital article|level=4|topic=Technology |class=C}} {{American English}} {{Old moves | collapse = false | list = * RM, NASA → National Aeronautics and Space Administration, '''No consensus''', 24 August 2006, [[Talk:NASA/Archive_1#Requested_move|discussion]] * RM, NASA → National Aeronautics and Space Administration, '''Not moved''', 5 March 2015, [[Talk:NASA/Archive_2#Requested_move_5_March_2015|discussion]] * RM, NASA → National Aeronautics and Space Administration, '''Not moved''', 7 April 2022, [[Talk:NASA#Requested_move_7_April_2022|discussion]] }} {{afd-merged-from|NASA Edge|NASA Edge|22 September 2021}} {{afd-merged-from|NASAcast|NASAcast (2nd nomination)|22 September 2021}} {{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1= {{WikiProject Spaceflight|class=B|b1=yes|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes|b6=yes|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Aviation|class=C|b1=no|b2=yes|b3=no|b4=yes|b5=yes}} {{WikiProject Technology|class=C}} {{WikiProject United States|class=C|importance=Mid|USGov=yes|USGov-importance=High}} {{WikiProject Organizations|class=C|importance=Low}} {{WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia|feywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfg {{WikiProject Rocketry|class=C|importance=high}} {{WikiProject Science Policy |class=C |importance=High}} {{WikiProject Weather |class=C |importance=High |space-weather-task-force=yes}} <!-- national AERONAUTICS and space administration --> }} {{Copied|from=NASA|to=List of NASA aircraft|diff=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NASA&oldid=302520259}} {{pp-move-indef}} {{Article History |action1=GAN |action1date=8 December 2006 |action1link=Talk:NASA/Archive 1#Failed .22good article.22 nomination |action1result=not listed |action1oldid=92994250 |action2=GAN |action2date=June 9, 2007 |action2link=Talk:NASA/GA0 |action2result=listed |action2oldid=136444573 |action3=GAR |action3date=July 28, 2009 |action3link=Talk:NASA/GA1 |action3result=Kept |action3oldid=304776110 |action4=GAR |action4date=15 June 2020 |action4link=Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/NASA/1 |action4result=Delisted |action4oldid=961730140 |topic=Natsci |aciddate=October 2, 2005 |currentstatus=DGA |otd1date=2004-10-01|otd1oldid=6297937|otd2date=2005-10-01|otd2oldid=24515704|otd3date=2006-10-01|otd3oldid=78615955|otd4date=2008-07-29 |otd4oldid=228466474|otd5date=2009-07-29|otd5oldid=304412230|otd6date=2010-07-29|otd6oldid=376043416|otd7date=2013-07-29|otd7oldid=566261616|otd8date=2016-07-29|otd8oldid=731923482|otd9date=2018-07-29|otd9oldid=852458770 }} {{Banner holder|collapsed=yes| {{Annual readership|days=90}} {{Spoken Wikipedia request|[[User:Craigboy|Craigboy]] ([[User talk:Craigboy|talk]])|Important article, old recording is eight years old and very outdated}} }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 100K |counter = 3 |minthreadsleft = 4 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(240d) |archive = Talk:NASA/Archive %(counter)d }} == 17 years old spoken version? == <nowiki>{{Spoken Wikipedia|En-NASA.ogg|date=September 1, 2005}}</nowiki> is nearly 17 years old. Is it worth keeping? [[User:PauAmma|The Crab Who Played With The Sea]] ([[User talk:PauAmma|talk]]) 21:54, 8 July 2022 (UTC) == Origination Date, omitted from introductory paragraph. == On July 29, 1958 President Dwight D Eisenhower signed into law the National Aeronautics And Space Act which created NASA. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:7890:5A40:0:0:0:49|2600:1700:7890:5A40:0:0:0:49]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:7890:5A40:0:0:0:49|talk]]) 23:46, 31 July 2022 (UTC) == update on Perseverance Rover on Mars. == [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnEVlso3D48&t=30s update about Perseverance Rover on Mars.]{{edit semi-protected|NASA|answered=yes}} [[User:Awad Alhaj|Awad Alhaj]] ([[User talk:Awad Alhaj|talk]]) 17:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC) : [[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 18:26, 3 September 2022 (UTC) == Continued NASA article updates == In the last month or so, I have drafted and published a number of updates to the NASA article. Changes were intended to deal with several templates (need for restructure/alignment; missing citations; dated info). In a number of areas, information was dated (5 or more years old - budget informtion, etc). Added organization and budget information near the front of the article. Cleaned up the media section to accommodate the prior merge of the podcast entries, etc. Separated history with current programs... Personal goal is to assist to establish an article that can hopefully be re-assessed to good article status. I am proposing to make additional changes in the coming weeks as follows: * Uncrewed/robotic missions is significantly dated and mostly historical. proposing to move (and clean up) historical missions to the history section and provide updated current missions section that conforms with NASA operational structure (planetary, heliophysics, astrophysics, earth sciences, etc - also identifying the program structure for development - Explorer, Discovery, New Frontiers, Large Strategic) * adding Space operations architecture items that support multiple missions (DSN, NEN, LSP, NSRP,...) Creating small intro sections and identifying links to main articles. * continued cleanup of the research section. various odd-n-ends have been droppped into the article over the years; proposing to bin them in a bit more organized fashion. Thin out NEO and align with Planetary Defense office. * collaboration section additions to account for significant ongoing collaboration efforts (NOAA - GOES, Polar orbiters; USGS - Landsat; Space Force; international - Artemis Accords), etc. Happy to discuss, collaborate, etc... Thoughts? [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 20:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC) :[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NASA&diff=1114569166&oldid=1114566720 This] is a key reason why the set of changes was reverted, it should be taken a bit slower so the greater community can keep track to prevent important information from being lost from the encyclopedia. [[User:NeutraI|NeutraI]] ([[User talk:NeutraI|talk]]) 04:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NASA&diff=1113761019&oldid=1113723007 This] edit is also another cause for concern. Adding or updating info is one thing, but removing large chunks of longstanding topical history while doing so is another. I personally am not too familiar with the subject matter, so you may want to solicit additional perspectives via an RfC for some of these large edits, particularly the history removals. [[User:NeutraI|NeutraI]] ([[User talk:NeutraI|talk]]) 04:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC) :::If you take a look at the article prior to the revert and the reverted one, you will not find the removal of significant content. You will see the movement of a prior narrative that jumbled the historical spacecraft missions from current programs. The historical missions were moved to the history section with additional relevant content and citations. New sections were created for the current programs that advanced the narrative by years as the prior narrative was mostly years if not a decade old. Citations were added in many cases to correctly tie the narrative to sources. I was doing this to improve the chance of a B article or better. The missing citations were noted in templates that were several years old indicating a lack of interest by anyone else to make the corrections. Changes to each section (other than a few typos in various places) were made individually with explanation in the change summary to indicate the reason or each change. I chose numerous smaller updates not to interfere with others rights to make changes. Happy to discuss in greater detail on any of the items. I request the reinstatement of the prior version followed by a change-by-change discussion if it is warranted. I can appreciate that I have moved faster than is typical but, in looking at recent history, there had been very little interest in most sections of the article other than bot edits. [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 04:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::::Yes, a change-by-change discussion is reasonable. [[User:NeutraI|NeutraI]] ([[User talk:NeutraI|talk]]) 05:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC) :::::Courtesy ping {{yo|BilCat|Randy Kryn}} [[User:NeutraI|NeutraI]] ([[User talk:NeutraI|talk]]) 05:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC) :::The only "removal of content" change that appears to conform to something like 2K is related to the Near Earth Object (NEO) section. The scientific info in a detailed paragraph in that old section has nothing to do with NASA and was also years out of date to the reality of what had been discovered/tracked. The Planetary Defense Coordination Office was created in 2016 (years after 2011 analysis and 2013 timeframe of WISE mission). The updated section discusses the broader topic in the context of NASA. The science material, if it were current, would likely be suitable in the the specific NEO article that the updated section identified as a See also... Let me know if this resolves your concern. :::If you are questioning other sections, please identify your concern. The changes were made in good faith as the other editor has indicated. Happy to discuss any of them. Let me know which ones you have concerns with. [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 05:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::::Understood, I don’t disagree that they were made in good faith. But I must ask, if the info has nothing to do with NASA then why was it in the article in the first place? [[User:NeutraI|NeutraI]] ([[User talk:NeutraI|talk]]) 05:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC) :::::I am pasting in the text without citations below to provide everyone an easy reference. The citations make the content considerably longer.. (from a character count perspective). Read the narrative. It is years out of date, offers scientific analysis of the size of asteroids (why in a NASA article?). Offers a class in statistics. None of this is about NASA. It is years out of date to what NASA is currently doing. The DART mission impact of last week is a good example of what I included in the updated Planetary Defense/NEO section. It expresses political statements about lack of funding (in 2005 - current???) that are not accurate (see DART, OSIRIS-REx, NEOWISE, and the PDCO office itself). :::::If this level of detail is expected for each topic in the article, it will become unintelligble. launches will require assessment of energy expended to reach orbit. for satellites, delta velocity expended inception to date.... Not trying to kill it or hide it, it just doesn't belong in this article. As to why it survived. I could only guess. The article appears to have stagnated after it lost Good Article status many years ago. The only additions were focused on crewed missions (commercial crew, artemis). It overlooked about 50% of what NASA works on on an annual basis - content that you deleted with your revision. :::::Not to be argumentative but you believe you have the right to delete 30K plus of content generated in many revisions without reading it and I cannot delete 2K of content, identifying its deletion when it was made and having some knowledge of the topic, without a challenge to a complete body of work. doesn't appear to balance from a logic perspective. As I said, happy to discuss but I think you need to convey a concern that the replacement language did not do justice to the topic. I don't think wikipedia requires me to justify good faith changes. Additionally, your edit history shows no prior interest in the article from a quick scan. This is not a prerequisite for getting involved but I would hope you are participating based on intellectual interest in the topic otherwise how will a discussion on content changes play out? :::::******** :::::In 1994, there was a Congressional directive to find near-Earth objects (NEOs) larger than 1 kilometer, and 90% of 1 kilometer sized asteroids are estimated to have been found by 2010. :::::In 1999, NASA visited 433 Eros with the NEAR spacecraft which entered its orbit in 2000, closely imaging the asteroid with various instruments at that time. From the 1990s NASA has run many NEO detection programs from Earth bases observatories, greatly increasing the number of objects that have been detected. However, many asteroids are very dark and the ones that are near the Sun are much harder to detect from Earth-based telescopes which observe at night, and thus face away from the Sun. NEOs inside Earth orbit only reflect a part of light also rather than potentially a "full Moon" when they are behind the Earth and fully lit by the Sun. :::::In 2005, the US Congress mandated NASA to achieve by 2020 specific levels of search completeness for discovering, cataloging, and characterizing dangerous asteroids larger than 140 meters (460 ft) (Act of 2005, H.R. 1022; 109th), but no new funds were appropriated for this effort. As of January 2019, it is estimated about 40% of the NEOs of this size have been found, although since by its nature the exact amount of NEOs are unknown the calculations are based on predictions of how many there could be. :::::One issue with NEO prediction is trying to estimate how many more are likely to be found. In 2000, NASA reduced its estimate of the number of existing near-Earth asteroids over one kilometer in diameter from 1,000–2,000 to 500–1,000. Shortly thereafter, the LINEAR survey provided an alternative estimate of 1,227+170 :::::−90. In 2011, on the basis of NEOWISE observations, the estimated number of one-kilometer NEAs was narrowed to 981±19 (of which 93% had been discovered at the time), while the number of NEAs larger than 140 meters across was estimated at 13,200±1,900. The NEOWISE estimate differed from other estimates in assuming a slightly lower average asteroid albedo, which produces larger estimated diameters for the same asteroid brightness. This resulted in 911 then known asteroids at least 1 km across, as opposed to the 830 then listed by CNEOS. In 2017, using an improved statistical method, two studies reduced the estimated number of NEAs brighter than absolute magnitude 17.75 (approximately over one kilometer in diameter) to 921±20. The estimated number of asteroids brighter than absolute magnitude of 22.0 (approximately over 140 m across) rose to 27,100±2,200, double the WISE estimate, of which about a third are known as of 2018. A problem with estimating the number of NEOs is that detections are influenced by a number of factors. :::::NASA turned the infrared space survey telescope WISE back on in 2013 to look for NEOs, and it found some during the course of its operation. NEOcam competed in the highly competitive Discovery program, which became more so due to a low mission rate in the 2010s :::::[[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 05:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC) :::::To all. I am going to recover the updated version of the article (undo the revert). If the change above needs to be returned to the document by consensus, I will be happy to do so. What I don't want to happen is create a configuration issue with the other good faith changes if others start to edit and create a different thread that will make recovery impossible. As the talk post originally indicated when I was making these changes, I am happy to discuss any of them. I am proposing to include them to make them subject to discussion. [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 05:57, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::::::I reverted to the updated document. Fee free to communicate any concerns you have with any of the material, either newly added material or older items. As expressed before, I have the desire to assist to seek a re-assessment of the article to move it back toward a Good Article status. Appreciate any and all constructive comments to improve the article.[[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 06:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::::::one more comment. If you wish to assess all changes that I have made to the article, I published my first change on 4 September. To give you a sense of the state of the article at that time versus the current version. Happy to discuss if anyone contests any of the changes. [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 06:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC) :::::::I was pinged and think that SpaceHist65 should continue to complete what probably is a great improvement to the article. My concern was if anyone who usually works on the page is keeping track (written in an edit summary as I added back a removed pertinent navbox) and have to assume they are and just letting the quality changes flow. At times competent editors will overhaul long-standing articles for the better and this is probably one of those times. No need for roadblocks as long as the page keeps improving, and when it is finished then individual editors will catch any questionable areas. Thanks for the concern {{u|NeutraI}} but let's see what great work continues to come from this. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 11:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::::::::I think I have determined the origin of the technical content in the NEO section. On 13:50 7 October 2019, user Fotaum copied the paragraph(s) from the [[Near-Earth object]] article into the NASA article directly. The explanation of changes confirms this. It also confirms that the NEO article is the best location for the technical material (I suspected this but the proof is in the article itself). You will find the narrative in the current NEO following section [[Near-Earth_object#Size distribution]]. The information in the NEO article has been advanced a bit from a timeline perspective and discusses activity in 2021 (vs 2019 or earlier in the prior cloned copy in the NASA article). ::::::::While I am still opposed to retaining the detailed paragraph(s) in the NASA article, inclusion, if desired by the consensus, should be done via an excerpt or similar to eliminate the content drift between the two at a minimum. Maybe a subsection "Math of NEO size and predictions" to allow an excerpt inclusion at a subsection level. If not this, a new copy should be copied over to at least bring it current to the source document. ::::::::The highly mathematical nature of these paragraphs have an ideal home in the NEO article. Editors that will take on changes and updates to that article will naturally be of a similar technical orientation given the content. The NASA article is a different story. It is not surprising that it had not been advanced. Intimidating and a bit "out of place" for a casual reader or editor. This NASA article section has always included a Main or See also link to the NEO article under the subsection header. ::::::::Once a 'keep or discard decision' is made, a belated writer attribution link in TALK may be warranted that connects the two articles to comply with best practices.[[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 22:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC) ::::::::Noting the re-inclusion of the prior Near-Earth object section overnight (US Time) by Neutral, a number of redundancies were created in the article. I have updated the article, preserving the content from the PDCO and the NEO sections into a section under PDCO. From a NASA perspective, PDCO is now the parent and NEO detection is one activity under the PDCO umbrella. The original NEO detect effort was a "find" activity. PDCO (2016) is now chartered to figure out what to do about it if a hazardous object is found (think movies Armageddon or Deep Impact without all of the cool technologies to make those movie outcomes occur). The update posted retains the tech content that came from the NEO article (I would still prefer to delete it). It also includes the NEAR Shoemaker and NEO Surveyor missions in a standard form in the missions section. Again happy to discuss to meet everyone's expectations. Just did not want to leave the redundant sections and paragraphs in the document for any duration. [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 00:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC) :::::NeutraI confirmed as a sockpuppet (Oct 13, 2022). Based on confirming the size prediction (technical paragraph) was copied from Near-Earth Objects article in Oct 2019 and the information there has been updated to be more current than the copy that has resided in the NASA article, I am deleting the paragraph from this article. The "see also" link to Near-Earth Objects article is shown at the top of this subsection. [[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 03:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC) :Removed [[NASA#Perceptions of NASA budget]] subsection as the information included is an older version of info included in the [[Budget of NASA]] article that is a See also from this article. No value in keeping older version. See also link moved up front to Budget section. Additionally, article has grown. Looking to find some material that is not unique/high value to right-size the article downward a bit.[[User:SpaceHist65|SpaceHfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgfeywhfgqgqwuogfyewouyfwueghdgqwuifuwqgyfiuygqwdugyfygwiuqgfiuqgwyyfghwegfoygwqeogfoyeqgifgyegiyqgfygrygyfgist65]] ([[User talk:SpaceHist65|talk]]) 03:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)'