Talk:Byzantine Greeks

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Byzantine Greeks has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 26, 2009	Peer review	Reviewed
December 2, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

Greece: Byzantine High‑importance

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RFC for the way to present the identity of the Byzantine Greeks

Should we present their identity in the lead only as "Greek-speaking Eastern Romans" or mention about their Greek/Hellenised cultural background as well? Please note that this article is for the "Greeks" (exonym and demonym) of the empire and not all Byzantines (Slavs, Armenians, Varangians, Arabs, Normans, Illyrians, Bulgarians etc.). Othon I (talk) 07:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would it not be fair to say that virtually all subjects of the Eastern Empire were, to a greater or lesser extent, Hellenised? If so, then to write "Hellenised Eastern Romans" would include all and fair to distinguish the Greek speakers as a distinct group of interest. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment, indeed most of the subjects of the Byzantine Empire were Hellenised at a certain point of time, as you said to a greater or lesser extend. However, I believe that if we mention only the term "Hellenised" in this article may imply that more population groups are included. e.g. the Angelos dynasty and the Komnenos dynasty where of Greek origin, however the Macedonian dynasty was of Armenian origin (at least partly) but Hellenised. I believe that there should be a distinction on this. Othon I (talk) 09:48, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. It would not be fair to say "virtually all the subjects of the Eastern Empire to a greater or lessor extent Hellenized" You can't invent facts out of thin air. Multiple DNA studies now exist that suggest modern Greeks are DIRECT DESCENDENTS of ancient Greeks. If you want to know how much admixture due to assimilation and ongoing evolutionary mutation consult a geneticist not unqualified quacks in the humanities pawning of their politics as scientific. (see Sokal Affair) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706 https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals′

RfC about the opening sentence in the lead

Should we change the current sentence in the lead from the broad Greek-speaking Eastern Romans to the more specific Greek and Hellenised Eastern Romans (blends the Greek cultural background and their self-identification as Romans)? Since the article is for the specific medieval ethic group and there is another article that cover all the populations for the Byzantine Empire (Population of the Byzantine Empire). Consequently, it will follow the similar practice of the Byzantine Slavs, Armenians, Arabs (Melkites), Varangians and others. Othon I (talk) 12:45, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Except the DNA record suggest modern Greeks are direct descendants of ancient Greeks. Don't invent facts based on feelings and prejudices.

https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals#:~:text=Modern%20Greeks%20share%20similar%20proportions,from%20later%20migrations%20to%20Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.248.119 (talk) 00:54, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not getting involved with the RfC but that has nothing to do with anything—this is about self-identity, not genetic descent. Ichthyovenator (talk) 08:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary. Of course it has to do with genetic descent and more importantly cultural patrimony. That's why so many bigoted antihellenic trolls patronizingly try to detach modern Greeks from Greek history. They claim Greeks aren't biologically precisely because articles like this one obfuscate genetic facts with hot air narratives. All one need do is look is how many today try to whitewash half the former Yugoslavians population little switch-a-roo of identity into apparently the antihellenic founders of the Hellenistic period -- the ancestors of Greeks not that of Slavs. That would include here on Wikipedia where many that offensively framed Greeks as "nationalists" for objecting to the former Yugoslavians use of the term "Macedonians" now, quite unethically, pretend they don't notice them abusing the name to claim Greek history as their own and using that to promote irredentism.

https://equestrianstatue.org/alexander-the-great/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.248.119 (talk) 01:10, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of claims of "Hellenized" but not a peep about Greeks that were Romanized after Rome conquered Greece. Everyone acts like millions of ancient Greek evaporated into thin air and modern Greeks, who live in Greece, clearly speak Greek, have massive cultural connections to ancient Greeks, have no link to ancient Greeks. Instead they have invented a non-existent nation of "Byzantines" a slur in English no less, which if the current genetic evidence is accurate at least in Greece were mostly Romanized ethnic Greeks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.248.119 (talk) 01:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2022

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The last part which talks about the Greeks still referring to themselves and their language as Roman and Romaic should be removed. That has stopped happening for more than a century now. 37.6.6.108 (talk) 14:54, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 17:36, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2023

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Change “throughout their history the Byzantine Greeks self-identified as Romans” to “throughout their history the Byzantine Greeks self-identified as Hellenes, using the now-ubiquitous Roman term ‘Greek’. They easily adopted the Roman term due to the Roman Empire’s embrace of Greek culture and their shared religion of nascent Christianity at the time.” Aniskyr (talk) 11:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 11:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Revival of Hellenism" section

From an evolutionary standpoint, Byzantium was a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenised empire of the East, and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: an empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word.

Someone consult a thesaurus... 2600:1702:6D0:5160:6914:9E20:E8C7:E73D (talk) 01:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good pick up, I modified it. Some editors do get a little too romanticised by former empire. Biz (talk) 17:16, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]