Talk:Murder of Seth Rich

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Murder of Seth Rich article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13: 2 months

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Murder of Seth Rich. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Murder of Seth Rich at the Reference desk.

view · edit

Frequently asked questions

This section is here to provide answers to some questions
that have been previously discussed on this talk page.

Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously
been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.

To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

General concerns and questions

Q1: I have an issue with the name of this article. I think it should be something other than "Murder of..."

A1: You can post a message on this page about your concern but please be aware that changing the title of this article has been discussed before. If you would like to see if the renaming you have in mind has already been suggested, you can search this talk page's archives for previous discussions, including Archive 9#Requested move 19 May 2017, Archive 10#Requested move 2 June 2017, Archive 11#Requested move 14 July 2018, and Archive 13#Requested move 2 June 2020.

Q2: I heard [something] about [someone] who supposedly could have some [possible] connection to the crime...why isn't this in the article?

A2: Since the shooting occurred, news reports, blogs, and fringe sources have theorized about possible connections that various people maybe could have had with the crime, but these reports have not been borne out over time by reliable sources. If you have come to this talk page to post about or promulgate some theory that is not supported by multiple up-to-date reliable sources, please note the following:

Wikipedia policies about living persons apply across the entire encyclopedia.
Posts that are judged to be against Wikipedia policies will be removed.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Politics: American Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

United States: District of Columbia Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Washington, D.C. portal This article is supported by WikiProject District of Columbia (assessed as Low-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Journalism Low‑importance

	Journalism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Alternative views Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Skepticism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 19, 2016	Articles for deletion	No consensus
September 15, 2016	WikiProject approved revision	Diff to current version
October 4, 2016	Articles for deletion	No consensus
January 21, 2017	Articles for deletion	Speedily kept
February 26, 2017	WikiProject approved revision	Diff to current version
May 30, 2017	WikiProject approved revision	Diff to current version

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Murder of Seth Rich article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13: 2 months

Statements Confirming Seth Rich As The Wikileaks Source For The DNC Emails

1. Ellen Ratner

Ellen Ratner is the sister of the late Michael Ratner, Julian Assange's lawyer. She visited Julian Assange in the Equadorian embassy.

"I spent three hours with Julian Assange on Saturday, at the Equadorian embassy in London. Well one thing he did say is that the leaks were not from the Russians. They were an internal source from the Hillary campaign. Or from somebody that knew Hillary - an enemy. He does not think they're from Russians. And he said Russia got credit for something Wikileaks should have gotten credit for."

2. Sy Hersh

Sy Hersh was surreptitiously interviewed by Ed Butowski. Ed Butowski Interview Of Seymour Hersh 03:00 Seymour Hersh: "This is according to the FBI report. What they find is he makes contact. ... What the report says is that some time in late spring, ... he makes contact with Wikileaks. And that's in his computer." 04:19 "They found what he had done. He had submitted a series of documents, of emails, some juicy emails, from the DNC."

3. KimDotCom

"His name is Seth Rich. And he will never be forgotten." 83.84.100.133 (talk) 22:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New Reports

Seth was the source of the leaks according to investigators. Its time we remove false conspiracy theories now. Heldjohn (talk) 22:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cite reliable sources, please. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:26, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"according to investigators". Investigators? Where are they from? Who do they work for? What are their qualifications? Where has this been reported? What is the source or what are the sources?

And "remove false conspiracy theories"? Well, the following sources - Reuters News Service, CNN, Infowars, and the Washington Times - all state that claims about Seth Rich's supposed involvement in the leaks are false.

Reuters news service in its report about a 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan's decision
CNN
Jerome Corsi's retraction on Infowars
Washington Times' retraction.

So. The article's present information is truthful, factual, and verifiable. Seth Rich was not the source of the leaks. Are there any reliable sources for the claims/assertions about these supposed "New Reports"? No? Didn't think so. Shearonink (talk) 23:32, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Julian Assange nodding

The small little tidbit of info pertaining to Assange "nodding" needs to be removed. It's very clear that Assange was nodding to the interviewer, but due to a lag (consistent in the rest of the video), it appears that he nodded to the claim presented. The source itself is unbound and clearly open to interpretation (I know, this applies to me too). It should be worded to something else, such as "When asked directly whether Rich was a source, Assange said "we don't comment on who our sources are".Letmejustcorrectthatforyou (talk) 09:21, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

add Rohrabacher ?

In a phone interview with Yahoo News, Rohrabacher said his goal during the meeting was to find proof for a widely debunked conspiracy theory: that WikiLeaks’ real source for the DNC emails was not Russian intelligence agents, as U.S. officials have since concluded, but former DNC staffer Seth Rich, who was murdered on the streets of Washington in July 2016 in what police believe was a botched robbery.

per Rohrabacher confirms he offered Trump pardon to Assange for proof Russia didn't hack DNC email by Michael Isikoff Yahoo News February 20, 2020 X1\ (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW (non-admin closure) b uidhe 20:45, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Murder of Seth Rich → Death of Seth Rich – As of May 2020, no one has been convicted of murder Jax 0677 (talk) 18:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think I like "Killing of Seth Rich" better? But I agree that murder is a legal term and it hasn't been adjudicated. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:NOTCENSORED. Plus, where is the BLP violation? There is no suspect for his murder.Casprings (talk) 19:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also matches the name in Murder of Tupac Shakur and Murder of XXXTentacion. I would note both articles have possible suspects.Casprings (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose As of May 2020, no one has been convicted of murder. So? --Calton | Talk 19:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Calton. Geogene (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Casprings and WP:RS. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As there is no identified suspect, there are no BLP concerns, so I think the current title is permissible. But if a suspect is ever identified and charged, the title should definitely be changed. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:41, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Murder of Seth Rich → Death of Seth Rich since the form "Death of..." lacks specificity and is used for all manner of general historical events, such as Death of Ludwig van Beethoven or celebrity deaths, such as Death of Jimi Hendrix. I would, however, support Murder of Seth Rich → Shooting of Seth Rich if consensus were to skew towards acceptance of such a main header form. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The absense of a named suspect does not preclude the Wiki from saying he was murdered. Did he fire a gun into his own back? ValarianB (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Killing of Seth Rich. Clearly unlawfully killed, but without a conviction we cannot say whether it was murder or not. How about manslaughter? -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Per the opposes above, especially WP:COMMONNAME. Shearonink (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even if a person is convicted of manslaughter in the death of another, one still phrases it as "they were murdered" when discussing the victim. It isn't "they were manslaughtered". ValarianB (talk) 16:21, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One certainly does not refer to someone killed by manslaughter as "murdered" unless one is ignorant of the law; one simply refers to them as "killed". Murder is a specific legal term. Unlawful killing does not equate to murder. On Wikipedia we usually use "killing of Foo" unless someone has actually been convicted of murder. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you cite a policy for that? Geogene (talk) 18:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No policy, but certainly consensus. See Talk:Murder of Tessa Majors#Requested move 2 June 2020, for instance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant policy is WP:COMMONNAME, and the consensus last time was to keep it here. Geogene (talk) 22:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've also had a look at the discussion linked to above. That situation is different than this one, because identifiable people have been charged with that crime, and the requested move is based solely on the fear that calling that crime a murder would be a BLP violation on the people accused. That is wrong, but it doesn't even apply in this case, because no suspects have been identified. Geogene (talk) 23:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One certainly does not refer to someone killed by manslaughter as "murdered" unless one is ignorant of the law One certainly does, unless one is ignorant of the English language. Also, this article has nothing to do with he conditions at Tessa Majors, you can't apply a one-size-fits-all solution to this. 16:54, 4 June 2020 (UTC)ValarianB (talk)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.