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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MezzoMezzo (talk | contribs) at 03:12, 28 March 2017 (→AbeEll's edits). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Muslims in Poland and Eastern Europe: Widening the European Discourse on Islam is a reliable source

McKhan the book mentions aicp.org in one footnote. To say that it cites it extensively is untrue. Furthermore, it does not do so for the claim that Al-Harari was a muhaddith.

Also you mischaracterized my edit in the explanation of your edit. I removed the word "renowned" and only cited that Al-Harari was a muhaddith.

I am reverting your edit. Please do not remove reliably sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZaynfromNY (talk • contribs) 18:51, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss your edit on the Talk Page. I was a student in Kiev, Ukraine at the Institute for Foreign Languages in the late 80s and cognizant of the Ahbash's network with-in Ukraine and surrounding countries. Having said that the author is directly quoting from the biography (Биография муфтия Украины шейха Ахмеда Тамима) of a Lebanese Shaykh or Mufti Ahmad Tamim, that Tamim "has the permission (ijaza) to translate Sufi tariqas of Rifa’iyya, Qadiriyya and Naqshbandiyya (at least of the two branches, in particular – Naqshbandiyya­Mujaddidiyya of Shaykh Ahmad Zulfiqar (Zulfiqar 2007: 185), hadiths of Zafar ‘Ali al­Nu’mani Ridawi and some other permissions on translating the Islamic sacred texts – from his teacher, the renowned muhaddith Abd Allah al­Harari alHabashi primarily." I don't see any independent reference next to muhaddith. Do you? (Thank you for not adding renowned next to muhaddith with your edit.). For now, I will go ahead and simply fix your reference format and leave the word muhaddith and revert the changes which I made with my previous edit. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:35, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that works for now as well. ZaynfromNY (talk) 06:22, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

AbeEll's edits

AbeEll, The way you made your entry (i.e. edit), I knew exactly why you are here as it reminded me of KevinAbdulqader and many others before you. Your subsequent edits proved my anticipation right.

I am afraid your edit claiming that "He is not "founter of Ahbash", he taught its Shuyookh and lead it, it was a group before he joined it." is not entirely correct. Apparently, you don't know that why the Al-Ahbash are called the Al-Ahbash despite being originated from Lebanon which is far away from Habasha (Modern day Horn of Africa). One just have to use Wikipedia to find out what and where Habasha is and then find out where Abdullah_al-Harari was born hence his followers are called Al-Ahbash despite being Lebanese in majority.

The Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (AICP) was there but they became popular because they follow the teachings of Abdullah_al-Harari, who is originally from Habasha or Ethiopia. Your second edit is preposterous because the AICP claims that they are affiliated with the Al-Azhar and Al-Azhar denies hence the sentence "...which claims to run its schools affiliated with Cairo's Al-Azhar University,[6] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[7][8][9]". While making this edit, you have reinstated the edit done by IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 from Indonesia in which they improperly cited the first article by misquoting it (The article clearly states "Islamic Scholars in Somalia’s northern eastern state of Puntland have condemned Shiite books allegedly loaded from Iran which tries to gain foothold in the Horn of African nation, Garowe Online reports......Books spotted in Somalia’s Puntland were largely authored by controversial cleric, Abdullahi Mohamed Yusuf (Al Harari), Sunni scholars said.") and then in the second source (a non-English one) they tried to promote Nahdlatul Ulama Online. (i.e. visiting Abdullah al-Harari's grave by chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama Online is irrelevant to this article on many levels). I will be reverting all of your edits. Please, don't make any edits without discussing them here. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]


The source says shia is trying to gain a foothold in the somalia but it also says Sheikh Abdullah's books are largely found there it doesnt say AICP is shia. Please stop spreading misinformation and misquoting your own sources. Thanks AbeEll (talk) 06:37, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was NOT the one who inserted those quotes but the Indonesian IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 and your reinstated them by yourself. You have to read the article to see what is being condemned by the Sunni scholars and which controversial cleric's books have allegedly been uploaded from Iran. The article clearly states: "Islamic Scholars in Somalia’s northern eastern state of Puntland have condemned Shiite books allegedly loaded from Iran which tries to gain foothold in the Horn of African nation, Garowe Online reports......Books spotted in Somalia’s Puntland were largely authored by controversial cleric, Abdullahi Mohamed Yusuf (Al Harari), Sunni scholars said. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 06:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So you're claiming yourself that Abdullah AlHarari's books come from Iran? When you are the one who said HE comes from Harar, clearly you dont even know what you are discussing. Stop misquoting the article, you have some personal vendetta against the man?AbeEll (talk) 07:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

McKhan isn't claiming that...it would appear that the article notes that. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reverts on Page

Can I ask why the removal of the sources that were properly cited and returned misquoted statements? It is in the 6th citation that claims AICP' Islamic schools are affiliated with AlAzhar, not the way it is said that AICP claims this.

The denial of the claim by AlAzhar is not genuine or reliable. Who posted this image as it doesnt seem to be officially from AlAzhar source. It could be a fabrication as it has no origin through official AlAzhar channels.

The Scholars who visited the grave of Abdullah AlHarari only legitimize his position as a scholar trusted and loved by scholars, this is not information that is irrelevant to the topic rather it is important.AbeEll (talk) 08:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I earlier stated that I am not the sole contributor to this article nor I inserted the above citation. I will recommend that you should read Al-Azhar_and_Al-Ahbash discussion and the talk page in detail. The sentence, "The group follow the teachings of Ethiopian scholar Abdullah al-Harari.[2] The AICP claims to run its Islamic schools being affiliated with Al-Azhar,[3] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[4][5][6]" presents Neutral Point of View (NPOV) as it corroborates with what the AICP / Al-Ahbash claims and what the Al-Azhar denies. Wikipedia is not a platform to legitimize one's favorite personality (i.e. Abdullah al-Harari) or promoting favorite organization (i.e. Nahdlatul Ulama) or its clergy (i.e. "In 2009 Nuril Huda, chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama's dawah division visited his grave.[11]."). Once again, the points you are making have been discussed on the Al-Ahbash over and over again. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As we already mentioned, it is the source that you used that mention that AICP is affiliated, it does no where mention that AICP is in anyway claiming this. The source for AlAzhars denial is not genuine nor is it reliable, and infact It presents proof that corroborates with other than official AlAzhar channels.

The Indonesian visit just provides proof that Abdullah is well known all over Asia by leaders of Islamic Ulema, which has no correlation with your claim of it making him a favorite personality.

The information you have posted claiming Abdullah is Shia has been nullified by not only the Sunnah visit of the Indonesian Scholars but also that his books being found in Somalia no where mentions his books being of Shia origin as YOU have already said they're from Iran. "These have been discussed on AlAhbash over and over again", if they have then there is an issue because you seem to be overlooking references and making personal claims.AbeEll (talk) 21:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, you are picking and choosing and you don't seem to be reading the Talk Pages thoroughly and not understanding that I am NOT the sole editor of this article or any other Al-Ahbash related article on Wikipedia. With reference to another detailed discussion here (And trust me there are more) and Wikipedia guidelines, the source you are referring to (I did NOT add that source) and the information posted by the AICP on their own web-site (You don't even know what the AICP claims on their web-site. Do you? It proves that you don't know exactly what you are talking about.) about their affiliation with Al-Azhar (i.e. their books being endorsed by Al-Azhar) cannot be taken as genuine specially when that claim has been challenged by the very same person from Al-Azhar to whom the AICP claimed to have agreement with. That's is precisely why "...a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[4][5][6]" was added into that sentence.
For the second time, I was NOT the one who inserted those quotes but the Indonesian IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 and you reinstated them by yourself. You have to read the article to see what is being condemned by the Sunni scholars and which controversial cleric's books have allegedly been uploaded from Iran. The article clearly states: "Islamic Scholars in Somalia’s northern eastern state of Puntland have condemned Shiite books allegedly loaded from Iran which tries to gain foothold in the Horn of African nation, Garowe Online reports......Books spotted in Somalia’s Puntland were largely authored by controversial cleric, Abdullahi Mohamed Yusuf (Al Harari), Sunni scholars said. Go and figure.
Wikipedia is NOT the place to prove "...that Abdullah is well known all over Asia by leaders of Islamic Ulema" and to promote Indonesian scholars of Nahdlatul Ulama or Al-Ahbash or its schoalr. I don't appreciate your constant accusation of personal bias. So, please, stop. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 00:59, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can show you http://www.darulfatwa.org.au/en/the-historic-visit-of-al-azhar-ash-sharif-to-australia-2015/ which seems to prove that AICP's schools and institutions are affiliated with AlAzhar seeing this post here, as you probably know DarulFatwa was started by AICP. So do tell me how we cannot see your unreliable source for AlAzhars denial as proof? AbeEll (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The people behind Dar-ul-Fatwa belongs to Islamic Charity Projects Association (ICPA) and the ICPA in Australia is basically the Al-Ahbash / ACIP elsewhere. Thus, it is not surprising that Dar-ul-Fatwa, ICPA, AICP, Al-Ahbash and their other outlets post, publish and share the very same information. Indeed, the ICPA / AICP / Al-Ahbash can post whatever they want to post on their web-sites, publish in their material or issue Fatwas however they deem fit or suitable to their cause but it does NOT mean that they (i.e. their Fatwas, material) should be taken as a neutral or genuine source. In a nutshell, Dar-ul-Fatwa / ICPA / AICP / Al-Ahbash's own posting on their web-site proves NOTHING that their schools, institutions and / published material is endorsed by or they are affiliated with Al-Azhar. There is a reason that the mainstream Sunni Muslims in Australia (and elsewhere) don't mingle nor approve Dar-ul-Fatwa / AICP / ICPA / Al-Ahbash's Radio Station and / or any of their material or outfits. Please, note the following:
Reuters and Al-Arabiya has reported about Ali Gomaa's Fatwa (from Al-Azhar) and arresting the men "who had been attempting to spread their beliefs on the campuses of al-Azhar University" and "belong to the al-Ahbash sect."
It begs the question:
  • Why would Al-Azhar let Egyptian authorizes arrest the Al-Ahbash men if they had "affiliation" with the Al-Ahbash and they agreed to the preachings of Al-Ahbash?
  • Why would Egypt's mufti Ali Gomaa issue a Fatwa against the Al-Ahbash in which he "described the group as "deviant" and said it sought to "corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam."?
The truth of the matter IS that the Al-Ahbash claim to made an agreement with Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim (from Al-Azhar) and he himself issued a letter / statement on the official letter-head of Al-Azhar (The ORIGINAL image of that letter / statement in Arabic can be found here) in which he announced 'that Al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of Al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and un-islamic in its thinking.”' Following is the English translation of the Arabic text:
  • "When I visited Lebanon 2 years ago, I was presented with some papers to me and a lot of pressure had been exerted on me to sign them. However, I have learned from the Egyptian Ambassador and from other sources that this organization (AICP / Al-Ahbash / TIES) is not credible, and their Islamic mindset is unhealthy. Thus, we have broken off contact with them and we have withdrawn / canceled everything they had demanded of us. There is no longer any relationship between them and us. There is no single form of recognition / accreditation and cooperation between Al-Azhar University and them. All papers, in which what is otherwise claimed (by this organization) do not correspond to the truth.
  • "We reject all attempts to abuse the name of the prestigious Al-Azhar University by this organizations or associations, which do not fully commit nor follow the Quran and Sunnah."
(It is pretty sad and interesting that you want whatever Dar-ul-Fatwa / AICP / ICPA / Al-Ahbash publish regarding themselves as genuine and yet you simply want to ignore what Al-Azhar and others (e.g. Markaz al-Nasr li Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamaah, Jakarta, Indonesia) have to say about the Al-Ahbash.)
The 'affiliation' of Al-Ahbash's with Al-Azhar is contentious, disputed and rejected by Al-Azhar itself under the light of many sources (I know you consider them all either fake, forged, unreliable or from Anti-Habashi, Wahabi, from the "competing" organizations and so on and so forth) available on-line (in Arabic and English) and given that President of Al-Azhar Dr. Ahmad Omar Hashem issued a letter in Arabic - roughly translated above in English - (which I know you and other adherents of Al-Ahbash considers to be "forged" for the mere reason that it hammers out and eliminates the false legitimacy and clout of having "affiliation" or "agreement" with Al-Azhar which the Al-Ahbash and AICP propagate through their web-sites including alsunna.org, alhabashi.info and more) and last but the not the least a Fatwa issued by yet another President of Al-Azhar and Grand Mufti of Egypt Dr. Ali Gomaa and Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar against the Al-Ahbash,
The sentence "The AICP claims to run its Islamic schools being affiliated with Al-Azhar,[3] a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.[4][5][6] is fair and neutral as it mentions the claim made by the Al-Ahbash - as mentioned in Haggai Elrich's article and rejection of that claim by Al-Azhar - as mentioned in that letter in Arabic by Dr. Umar and VERIFIABLE source by Markaz al-Nasr li Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamaah, Jakarta, Indonesia published by As-Sunnah Foundation of America is right there along-with the letter in Arabic and source in English.
Why did you reinsert the same edits which were previously done by the Indonesian IPs 180.246.67.138 and 36.79.65.55 article? Thank you. McKhan (talk) 03:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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