Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds

WikiProject Birds

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Laughing chicken

I can't find any online sources for this bird, other than the one source already listed (which is far for reliable). Does this bird actually exist? Does anyone have any more reliable sources? Sotakeit (talk) 12:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

It might be worth asking User:DrChrissy. He's a chicken guy of some description, I think. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Some googling managed to work out this 'laughing chicken' is Ayam Ketawa. id:Ayam ketawa. The Indonesian language article seems to be much more detailed and would suggest it is real. I suggest using google translate to let you have some grasp of what the article says. There are also quite a few youtube videos of this breed floating around. JTdale ^Talk 16:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Afraid I can not really help on this one. I have never heard of the Laughing chicken, but I am sure there are many breeds I have not heard of. I will chat with a poultry expert friend next time I see him.__DrChrissy (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Of interest

ANI of possible interest to members of this project: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Undiscussed_page_moves_by_SMcCandlish. Montanabw^(talk) 18:48, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Amazon parrots

Just to confirm - the 'Amazon' in the species names of these parrots refers to the Amazon rainforest, and thus as a proper noun, should always be capitalized, correct? I think that this is the case...

I see that User:Julia W has today moved a few of the Amazon species articles to lower-case 'a' titles per the recent decapitalization decision, e.g. Red-lored amazon. Should these be moved back? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 21:58, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I wondered this myself and therefore looked and found that other amazon articles had been moved. I figured that they knew better than me and therefore was okay to move more of them. My knowledge of English says that they should be lower-case but happy to be corrected. Julia\^talk 22:02, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Julia, thanks for the reply - I was just about to put a message on your talkpage. I think that saying Amazon parrot would be just like saying American robin, or Malagasy kestrel (under the new caps rules), assuming that I'm correct on the etymology... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Generally, Amazon is a proper noun and should be capitalized. Certainly when used in an adjective form (e.g. Amazon duck) it would be. But when used as a noun that may not be the case. For example, when referring to hummingbirds, the word inca is not capitalized (at least in sources which don't capitalize every word in species name). The best thing to do is to find a source which uses lowercase names, and follow their example. A quick scan of Google books shows that most sources capitalize (e.g. red-lored Amazon parrot). (Although at least one does not.) Pburka (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

As another data point, Merriam-Webster suggests that upper- or lower-case is acceptable:

often capitalized : any of a genus (Amazona) of tropical American parrots typically having green plumage marked with other bright colors

Pburka (talk) 22:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Interesting conundrum. I would have thought the derivation was removed enough from Amazon River that the geographical upper case was not compulsory. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:58, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

And then you have willie wagtail and jacky winter... what a can of nematodes... Maias (talk) 08:26, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

When I think of (A/a)mazon parrots, my immediate thought is 'parrots of the Amazon rainforest' (even though some of them aren't!). How should we resolve this? Pburka says that most sources he's found do specifically capitalize it. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I propose we capitalize Amazon:

1. A very brief survey indicates that more sources capitalize it,
2. A major dictionary accepts capitalized Amazon as correct (but optional),
3. It is (in my judgement) least likely to surprise readers, whether or not they are experts in the field.

(As for the wagtail and winter, examine the sources and tell us what you find.)

Pburka (talk) 17:25, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

The only really relevant results for this question will be from those sources that capitalise as white-fronted Amazon and Willie wagtail. Anything capitalised White-fronted Amazon and Willie Wagtail would be disqualified. A preliminary search of Google Books indicates that willie wagtail is very acceptable. The origin of Jacky winter is obscure; at least one source says that jacky is merely a common affectionate term, like willie, and winter is just because it sings all winter long, unlike other birds. Jacky dragon has no issues with lower-casing jacky. Julia\^talk 17:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

"white-fronted Amazon" is patently ridiculous — and is a direct result of this whole fiasco. Given the current MOS standards, I'd suggest it be lower-cased. MeegsC (talk) 23:22, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

I dunno really, it looks strange - but 'white-fronted amazon' looks wrong too. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 04:48, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Asked at the language desk! Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#Amazon or amazon. Julia\^talk 05:10, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly, the entry for "amazon" at Oxford Dictionaries has a lowercase definition, but all of its example usages are uppercase. Gabbe (talk) 07:56, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Strix omanensis

• According to ICZN a nomen dubium http://iczn.org/simpletaxonomy/term/631 --Melly42 (talk) 13:03, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Best to wait and watch. There are enough taxonomists who do not like Liocichla bugunorum Bugun Liocichla since the holotype only consists of samples of feathers and blood and photos (not to mention Homo sapiens). Shyamal (talk) 11:36, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Bird names in lower case

At Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 156#Bird common name decapitalisation (WP:BIRDCON), the closing decision at 01:33, 1 May 2014, contains this statement.

• Thus, bird names in WP should follow the general rule for animal names, which I understand to be lower case except when the word would otherwise be capitalized in English.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:51, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

So what's your point? Are you saying it's OK to lose good editors because style is more important than content? McCandlish, the leader of the MoS battle group makes no bones about losing editors being a small price to pay. His battleground mentality is why he is the subject of a move ban discussion at WP:ANI, since he has just ridden roughshod over good editors' contributions. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:15, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

My point is that converting bird names to lower case has community support. Good editors who have left might have stayed if editors who disagreed with them had communicated more gently with them. Style and content are both important. If SMcCandlish has converted bird names to lower case in conformity with the aforementioned decision, how does that diminish the contributions of other editors?

—Wavelength (talk) 17:37, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Community support is sometimes mob rule. The contributions of experts who actually know about the topic should not be discouraged by the capitalization trolls who make a moral issue out of something that isn't, particularly when, in the real world, there are reasonably compelling arguments for both sentence case and title case capitalization of animal names. Consistency is usually a good thing, but as they say, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Montanabw^(talk) 18:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Editors presented their arguments for and against the use of lower case in bird names, and the editor who closed the discussion presented a detailed list of considerations and how they were weighed in the final decision. There is no indication that that editor was influenced by antisocial factors.

Ideally, members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style have expertise in matters of writing style, members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds have expertise in ornithology, and members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes have expertise in ichthyology. At User talk:Wavelength/Archive 3#Sparsely-spotted stingaree (September 2010), I posted this comment: "If the leading authorities on the study of sharks and rays, because of their expertise in that field, have found what they consider to be a valid reason for using the hyphen in this expression, then I might be persuaded to accept that reason as a basis for agreeing with their decision about hyphenation. Otherwise, or until I know of such a reason, I believe that they have simply made an error in the use of the English language, and that someone with expertise in the study of the English language (possibly a copy editor or a linguist) should kindly tell them of their error."

(If "blue heron" and its capitalized version are both ambiguous in their own ways, then ornithologists can make a decision to use "blue-heron" or "blueheron".)

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882) said, in his essay "Self-Reliance": "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." (q:Ralph Waldo Emerson#Self-Reliance) However, 1 Corinthians 14:33 (New International Version) says: "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace--as in all the congregations of the Lord's people."

—Wavelength (talk) 19:36, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Just a reminder, that it appeared from the presentation of material in the discussion that not all experts used upper case. If they all had, I might have had to discuss it somewhat differently, because the general question of which to prefer is not a simple matter. This is not a conflict of expert use vs. non-expert use, but of divided use, both by experts and non-experts. The essence of my argument for the close that divided use could not form the basis for an exception to a general rule. DGG ( talk ) 04:37, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

@ DGG I'm not criticising you for your conduct of the closure, or the many GF editors who participated in the discussion (and the odd sockpuppet). The bitterness comes from the behaviour of the Mos warriors, particularly McC. Birds were targetted because we had a consistent policy that he didn't like (three consecutive common butterflies in one of my FAs had their articles capped, lc and binomial, but apparently that's not an MoS issue). McC doesn't actually move the pages to lc himself, he leaves that to his minions and moves on to his next target, always one with a consistent policy like horses and sheep breeds. The reason he's at ANI is that he didn't even bother with discussion with those articles, just imposed the MoS policies that he creates without discussion. His standard response when challenged is that my policies are right, I'll implement them how I choose, if you don't like it, fuck off. Which is exactly what contributors are doing. Even I have taken 2000 bird article off my watchlist because it seems pointless bothering about content Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:58, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I hope this doesn't upset people further, but as a botanist I would point out that this problem arises in part because of the efforts within ornithology to standardize common names, and the consequent use of those names for the titles of Wikipedia pages. If ornithologists communicated more in Latin, as other biologists do, the names could be properly typeset, and there would be no confusion between Sturnus vulgaris and whatever species is locally a "common starling". I expect that using Latin more would also bring respect for historical changes of common names, so that people wouldn't revert mention of the older names used by venerable works like Audubon's Birds of America (e.g., Rough-legged Falcon rather than the modern Rough-legged Buzzard). Fortunately for botany, the common names are almost invariably so ludicrously ambiguous that arguments can rapidly be made for using the scientific name for Wikipedia page titles. I would suggest that wikipedians interested in birds might do better to work to change the page names to Latin and use the Latin throughout the page except where common names are briefly listed. I'm a keen birder, but I won't edit anything to do with ornithology unless unambiguous naming practices become accepted there. (And yes, downcasing is ridiculous.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Sigh - yes I would have preferred it if they'd all been at species names from the get-go but there you go......for a real headache look at invertebrate pages....sigh. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me

Here is what happens if you express dissent with the MoS warriors. Whatever happened to freedom of expression? At this rate I might get blocked before I become yet another editor bullied off the project Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:52, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

And if you leave nobody will know why I'd revert the edit, but he's just itching to block me. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:01, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

That edit is pretty shocking. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 02:18, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

You're not alone, Jim. I reverted it, and he's threatened to ban me. Where can one go to report bullying when reporting it will get you banned? (Natureguy1980) (I was alerted to the recent happenings by an editor I know in real-life.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.105.116 (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

ANI is the obvious place, but with both of us User John has made it clear that he will unilaterally block editors who say things he doesn't like, despite being involved in this debate. ANI is the place to complain, but my invitation to take me there was ignored. Don't hope for a colleagual outcome Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:56, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Cas, any chance that, as a fellow admin who's kept his head down so far, you could talk with John about this? Or could you suggest an uninvolved bureaucrat who might make an impression re: the bullying? That's really not on, and must, surely, be addressed! MeegsC (talk) 10:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

• Wow. By this rate, Wikipedia will remain a collection of stubs, yet a nicely standardised one. FunkMonk (talk) 20:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

no shit. Montanabw^(talk) 21:08, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Yep. It's surely a wicked little cabal there, isn't it?! God forbid you should actually say it's a certain editor you have problems with! What's particularly "hilarious" is that on his own talk page, John (talk · contribs) asks for proof that people left because of a particular editor — and then deftly removes that proof. It's easy to suppress the truth when you just delete it and threaten to ban any editor that puts it back. Wicked, wicked, wicked. MeegsC (talk) 23:34, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Heh, see here.  ;-) Montanabw^(talk) 02:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I am just looking for the right venue to discuss this. Discussing it with John alone is pointless, so seeking an interpretation of what is and is not considered a personal attack is probably the most prudent. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree up to a point, but it's important to involve John in particular. He is an admin, and is redacting comments he doesn't like and/or threatening editors with unilateral blocks without benefit of trial at ANI, despite being involved in this issue. I'm sure he can justify his actions to himself, but they are perceived as being one-sided, with the MoS people being able to use whatever language or tone they wish. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

There is discussion ongoing on his talk page - I'll comment over there later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll admit I have not fully grasped the situation here yet, but I will also admit to being increasingly concerned, as a relatively new editor, at the surprising levels of systematic hostility I have repeatedly observed at Wikipedia to date. Are we not all here to make the best encyclopedia we can? Are we not brothers that need to put our differences aside and find common ground for the greater good? Best, Jim Jim-Siduri (talk) 05:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Of possible interest

There's a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Toward a standard for disambiguating titles of articles on domestic animal breeds which may be of interest to this project. It's not clear to me why {{u|SMcCandlish]] did not mention it here. [[User:Justlettersandnumbers|Justlettersandnumbers}} (talk) 12:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Bird identification

Comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Can anyone identify this bird? (version of 00:44, 22 July 2014). Also, editors may wish to watchlist Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science for future questions.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It's a Dunnock. Said as much on the reference page. MeegsC (talk) 01:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you.—Wavelength (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Flight Feather Taxonomy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_feather

Our current page on flight feathers hasn't went into enough detail into the flight feather forms that are meaningful to flight on specific avian species.

The page provides wonderful sources and an excellent skeleton of the names of classifications used to classify flight feathers, but it brutishly assumes that all birds or (most) use the same similar systems of flight feathers in the article and additionally hasn't continued into any actual classification systems past the definition and summary of the systems. Our various sources also suffer from this acute (narrow) sight and generalize many flight feather arrangements to many species from only a single species.

It may not be deep enough for readers who are interested in the actual classification of flight feathers, rather than just the assorted types and names of classification systems that are currently used.

We need the attention of experienced avian experts to add more meaningful categorical information relating to specific birds (corvus albicollis) which may differ from the rigid classifications provided in the article's source. Please include this information in meticulous detail, or if necessary pictorially.

(Have any of you ever classified the feather systems of certain common species within a family such as Corvidae? Research on the feather patterns of naturally occurring species within Corvidae (crows, magpies, jays) is rare and, as a result, the feather patterns page is restricted by the dearth of this research online. If anyone can contribute or if anyone has any research to present that hasn't been cited and provides new, meaningful content, please!)