Talk:Heresy

First of all, I think this is an excellent beginning for this article. I do think that Protestantism probably shouldn't be included in a list of heresies though. As a movement, from the Roman Catholic POV, I would guess that Protestantism involves both heresy and schism, two different offenses. It would be helpful to list specific heresies such as Arianism as such, as long as we identify who consideres them to be heretical. Such things should be bodies or systems of belief; the first three items on the list are good examples. (Arianism, Nestorianism, and I can't remember the third right now.) --Wesley

It is given as a heresy in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It seems to me that at its beginnings Protestantism was a heresy, but modern Protestants aren't heretics. Does that makes sense? Only those who first opposed the doctrines of Rome were heretics. Oonce they left the Church they became schismatics.

I don't think it's necessary to say who considers them heretical. Heresy is a legal judgement made by the Catholic Church. Afaik, no other church uses the term, but of course I could be wrong. --Dmerrill

As far as I know, technically (from the RC POV), Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Eastern Orthodox religions are schismatic; other Protestant churches (maybe not Calvinism?) are heretical, since they deny many or most tenets of RC-ism and have no link to apostolic succession.

I guess if the CE lists it as such, and the list is attributed, than I guess I can't really argue with including it. I was thinking that just leaving the church is an act of schism, not by itself an act of heresy. A heresy is a teaching or idea. But I should probably go read the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The Eastern Orthodox Church also uses the term, but with slightly different definitions. I don't think they would call it a "legal judgement" since they generally don't have as much "legal" thinking in their theology. I think that early church historians would use the term when discussing things like Arianism, using the term as it was used in the councils. --Wesley

I just tried to put it in context by distinguishing the beliefs of early protestants as heresies, not the movement after the schism, or today. Tweak as needed. --Dmerrill

But I think that's wrong. Catholics consider a a number

of Protestant beliefs to be heretical.

True, but not Protestantism in general, just the particular beliefs. And the holding to that belief is only heresy when it is held by a Catholic. --Dmerrill

Does the Roman Catholic Church really reject the 'universal priesthood of all believers', or simply the idea that such a priesthood of all believers is incompatible with the ordained priesthood? IIRC, the Eastern Orthodox church manages to affirm both, by assigning different definitions and roles to the two priesthoods.

I'd like to remind those who edit this page, and other pages referring to "heresies", that the Catholic historical position is a POV which must be noted as such when writing Wikipedia. It is disharmonious with NPOV to describe so-called "heretical" religious beliefs as being wrong, or un-Christian, or rejections of faith. (It is, of course, necessary to accurately report the Catholic POV that heresies exist and are such, though.) This applies equally to "historical" controversies as to more current issues such as Protestantism. --FOo

RK -- Could you please use α β γ type Greek character entities? (E.g.: αβγ ... χψω) The numerical ones are dependent upon your character map and do not display correctly on many browsers/platforms, whereas any conforming browser should display the "spelled out" ones correctly. These are also easier for others to read and understand in the page source than the numerical ones. --FOo

Any conforming browser will display the numeric ones correctly too. They are Unicode, and don't depend on any browser-specific or platform-specific character map. (Of course, we should aim for things to work also on as many non-conforming browsers as possible, but I don't know which is best in that respect.) --Zundark 23:28 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Also, using HTML entities is going to (I think) restrict you to monotonic Greek, whereas words such as these are being quoted from historical, that is, polytonic Greek, right ?

heresy was considered an offense punishable by clerical or secular powers

What, they punished heretics by giving them powers? -- Wapcaplet 05:27 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Try substituting "authorities" for "powers". I'd change it in the article, but I don't think it's true: heresy could be discerned by religious inquisitions, but heretics were remanded to the secular authorities for punishment/execution on the grounds that the church did not "shed blood". -- Someone else 05:37 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've changed it to "heresy was considered a punishable offense". Short and uninformative, but hopefully accurate. :) -- Oliver P. 06:16 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Heresy is a value-judgment" is a bit sappy, and passive tense is a symptom of dodging the issue as ever ("heresy was considered an offense punishable...") but there are certain axioms that need to be worked out here, and then set into the entry's opening paragraphs. Please treat the following as stubs to work on: The Catholic Encyclopedia has a useful long entry of "Heresy" as you may imagine: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm Wetman 18:27, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Heresy depends on dogma. Without promulgated dogma arrived at by ecumenical understanding and officially promulgated, no opinions are yet "heretical."

Heresy, like orthodoxy, evolves in history. (The opposing view, namely that dogma exists outside of time from the Beginning and is merely sequentially revealed needs to be expressed in its own paragraph.) No statements about what a community believes make sense outside a historical framework.

Heresy exists within theology

(Your axiom goes here)

to be added

Thomas Aquinas wrote in his Summa Theologica that heretics deserve capital punishment. [[1]] StopCultPropaganda 20:44, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The Christian countercult movement are the modern successors of the battle agains the heretics. StopCultPropaganda 20:44, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

any number of people may claim the mantle of "modern successors of the battle against the heretics". The Christian countercult movement is just one, and in reality not even the most prominent. Wesley 04:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Revisionist history?

I started trying to fix the bad history and speculation in the following paragraph, but I think it may be better off deleted.

Since the orthodox church (really proto-orthodox) was originally just one group amongst many others (who all regarded themselves as followers of Jesus), calling these other versions of Christianity heresies seems slightly anachronistic if applied to groups who operated in or before the 3rd century (or perhaps even the early 4th century). Most of these creeds would have been seen at the time (by their followers at least) as being just as legitimate as the proto-orthodox group. The orthodox church succeded in a slow process of legitimation of its authority and was able to label all their enemies as heretics and persecute them (thus giving the term an association with illegitimacy). At the time the term was coined, it probably did not have nearly such negative associations (except among the proto-orthodox).

First, the "process of legitimation" was in full swing by middle to late first century when Paul wrote the epistles that comprise a large part of the New Testament. On many occasions, he defends his own apostleship, and urges Christians in various places to beware of false teachers, or of anything contrary to what was handed to them. The letters of John and Jude also warn of false teachers. Beyond these, Irenaeus of Lyons and Tertullian wrote their respective treatises against heresies in the second century. At the time Christianity was outlawed; the Church clearly managed to label its enemies as heretics without persecuting them. Assuming those two things always went together is what is anachronistic here. As for whether the word "heretic" had such negative associations, most or all of these writers used enough other, er, descriptive language to ensure the negative connotations were not lost on their readers. Besides, this article is primarily about heresy the concept, not heresy the word.

So, any objections to removing the paragraph, or suggestions for salvaging it? Wesley 03:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A good discussion of heresy contains a discussion of the historical unfolding of the orthodoxy that defines heresy. The sections is not specific or informative. Rather than just suppressing the section, can you recast it as a discussion of the unfolding of an orthodoxy, including your objections as you outline them here? Wetman 04:46, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Other religions

Several other religions have concepts of heresy. The Church of Scientology uses the term "squirreling" to refer to unauthorized alterations of its teachings or methods.

The Church of Scientology is a legal U.S. establishment of a cult. Many countries do not recognize the Church of Scientology as a religion and, in some cases, federal action has been taken to remove the Church of Scientology from their borders. This is a poor example for the Other religions section of heresy. Considering that there are many actual religions in the world, find a better example. Adraeus 21:01, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Modern Heresy

(2004) The term heresy is increasingly used to mean the holding of ideas that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge; thus, religion is not a necessary component of the term's definition. For example, Charles Darwin of evolution fame is considered a heretic of his day.

I removed this here because "heresy" just is not used in this way by grown-ups, and the slightly tongue-in-cheek use of "heresy" in science, to make a point about its rigidly-held beliefs, has already been touched on in the Bob Bakker mention. More could be added to that comparison of "bad science" to religion. But there's nothing that scientists regard as "heretical" about Darwin, unless the word is to lose all point--- which may be the intention here. Wetman 10:13, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fortunately, the definition of the term heresy is gradually moving towards general applicability. Religion is not a necessary component of the definition. Wikipedia is not a podium for your personal beliefs. By the way, Charles Darwin was considered a heretic in his day as were Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and others. Additionally, the definition of heresy as it applies in modern contexts is supported by etymological research. I'm re-adding the section regardless of your dogma and will continue to re-add it every time you remove it. Your removal was wrong and I suggest you refrain from speaking on behalf of "grown-ups." All you need is a [good dictionary] ([1] [2] [3]. If such a definition is alien to you or doesn't conform to your perception of the topic, then I think the term has met its objective. Adraeus 00:34, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Darwin, Newton and Einstein could all be considered herectical in a religious sense depending on the readers views. Can you provide other examples where there are clearly no religious ties? Science and heresy have such a long a history it is confusing. But perhaps in business? Or some other modern usage of the word that doesnt involve science, then it might be more clear.Stbalbach

The modern heresy definition does not directly concern religion. It concerns perceptions that are contrary to a popular opinion. As an answer to your question, I say there are far too many heretics in business, which is a social science, and other sciences to compose a complete list. For that reason, only persons who are known to many categories of people were included as an example of the definition. Here are a few not-so-well-known heretics: Henry Mintzberg, Zvi Bodie, Gerry McGovern talks about modern heresy, Clifford Stoll, 'maverick' is sometimes interchanged, and a quite a few more. The Internet is an amazing resource. Search it. Adraeus 02:29, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, then, why not put those in as modern examples instead of the scientific examples? I would do so, but you have allready made it clear you would "re-add it every time you remove it". Stbalbach

All examples are people from a scientific field. Business is a social science. As Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, we can create a categorical list of past and present heretics. I merely provided a starting point, however, I think it'd be best if we posted only exoteric and unambiguous examples. Adraeus 05:48, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Darwin in particular is an Ambiguous example, clearly heretical to Christian Creationism (just ask the public schools in Georgia). Newton and Einstein less so, but could be seen as ambiguous. Why not choose an example of "heretic" that is clearly unambigious and exoterically non-religious? Stbalbach

Charles Darwin is not an ambiguous example nor is Alfred Russel Wallace. Have you even read the Charles Darwin entry? Your orientation is incredibly pedantic. I could have used Leonardo da Vinci as an example and you'd object, "But the Church! The Church was involved in his history!" Let's get one thing straight: religion is a meme. It is a powerful and influential meme that has existed for centuries. Religion has affected many of the key figures of the modern world and to not use an example because of an association with religion would just simply be foolish. If you can come up with a better example, by all means, wiki away. Adraeus 11:46, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that this use of the term "heresy" — to refer, e.g., to a scientific innovator — is a metaphor. It is intended to allude to both the difference between the person's views and the mainstream, and the boldness of such a person in propounding these views despite their unpopularity or even despite forceful opposition. It is certainly a very colorful metaphor, and various writers have played upon it extensively, adding "inquisitions" and "orthodoxies" and so forth to stories about resistance to new or unproven ideas. (Consider Robert Anton Wilson's The New Inquisition for one example.)

(The metaphor is also, oddly enough, sometimes applied to innovators who were throughout their working lives considered respected parts of the establishment, such as Sir Isaac Newton, mentioned above.)

In any event, I have to wonder about the importance of describing metaphorical uses such as this in a Wikipedia article — particularly if the metaphor is so contentious. As silly as it may be to argue over whether Darwin "was" a scientific heretic (since it is only a metaphor anyway, since science, business, etc. do not operate by canon law) it may indicate that this is not a matter upon which Wikipedia needs to speak conclusively. —FOo 06:18, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, Fubar Obfusco, but that is incorrect. The described definition of heresy is not a metaphor. It is an actual definition. Webster: "heresy", Princeton WordNet: "heresy". The term heresy is not limited to religious contexts; thus, canon law and "respect" (refer: your comment about Isaac Newton) has nothing to do with this definition of heresy. Presenting an objective and unambiguous model of reality is within the scope of Wikipedia. If you choose to present a topic from one side, in this case religion, you've devalued Wikipedia.

This definition is a logical definition and applies to both religious and other contexts. heretic is defined as "a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion.)" unorthodox has two similar definitions: a) "independent in behavior or thought" (with maverick and irregular as synonyms), and b) "breaking with convention or tradition." So now, heretic is defined as "a person who holds (irregular, maverick, unorthodox) opinions in any field ..." We also find that the antonym of unorthodox is orthodox which is defined as "adhering to what is commonly accepted" and orthodoxy as "a belief or orientation agreeing with conventional standards." Now we have heretical as "independent of behavioral or intellectual constraint imposed by conventional standards", heretic as "a person who holds opinions contrary to the status quo ..." and finally heresy as "a holding of ideas, not necessarily beliefs, that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge" or as "any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position." Heresy can then be likened to a process of continual innovation. It is a constant disagreement with what is.

By the way, for those of you that are religionists simply arguing against what you perceive as an attack from science on a religious concept, understand this: science is not a competing religion. Adraeus 09:24, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)