Talk:Heresy

First of all, I think this is an excellent beginning for this article. I do think that Protestantism probably shouldn't be included in a list of heresies though. As a movement, from the Roman Catholic POV, I would guess that Protestantism involves both heresy and schism, two different offenses. It would be helpful to list specific heresies such as Arianism as such, as long as we identify who consideres them to be heretical. Such things should be bodies or systems of belief; the first three items on the list are good examples. (Arianism, Nestorianism, and I can't remember the third right now.) --Wesley

It is given as a heresy in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It seems to me that at its beginnings Protestantism was a heresy, but modern Protestants aren't heretics. Does that makes sense? Only those who first opposed the doctrines of Rome were heretics. Oonce they left the Church they became schismatics.

I don't think it's necessary to say who considers them heretical. Heresy is a legal judgement made by the Catholic Church. Afaik, no other church uses the term, but of course I could be wrong. --Dmerrill

As far as I know, technically (from the RC POV), Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Eastern Orthodox religions are schismatic; other Protestant churches (maybe not Calvinism?) are heretical, since they deny many or most tenets of RC-ism and have no link to apostolic succession.

I guess if the CE lists it as such, and the list is attributed, than I guess I can't really argue with including it. I was thinking that just leaving the church is an act of schism, not by itself an act of heresy. A heresy is a teaching or idea. But I should probably go read the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The Eastern Orthodox Church also uses the term, but with slightly different definitions. I don't think they would call it a "legal judgement" since they generally don't have as much "legal" thinking in their theology. I think that early church historians would use the term when discussing things like Arianism, using the term as it was used in the councils. --Wesley

I just tried to put it in context by distinguishing the beliefs of early protestants as heresies, not the movement after the schism, or today. Tweak as needed. --Dmerrill

But I think that's wrong. Catholics consider a a number

of Protestant beliefs to be heretical.

True, but not Protestantism in general, just the particular beliefs. And the holding to that belief is only heresy when it is held by a Catholic. --Dmerrill

Does the Roman Catholic Church really reject the 'universal priesthood of all believers', or simply the idea that such a priesthood of all believers is incompatible with the ordained priesthood? IIRC, the Eastern Orthodox church manages to affirm both, by assigning different definitions and roles to the two priesthoods.

I'd like to remind those who edit this page, and other pages referring to "heresies", that the Catholic historical position is a POV which must be noted as such when writing Wikipedia. It is disharmonious with NPOV to describe so-called "heretical" religious beliefs as being wrong, or un-Christian, or rejections of faith. (It is, of course, necessary to accurately report the Catholic POV that heresies exist and are such, though.) This applies equally to "historical" controversies as to more current issues such as Protestantism. --FOo

RK -- Could you please use α β γ type Greek character entities? (E.g.: αβγ ... χψω) The numerical ones are dependent upon your character map and do not display correctly on many browsers/platforms, whereas any conforming browser should display the "spelled out" ones correctly. These are also easier for others to read and understand in the page source than the numerical ones. --FOo

Any conforming browser will display the numeric ones correctly too. They are Unicode, and don't depend on any browser-specific or platform-specific character map. (Of course, we should aim for things to work also on as many non-conforming browsers as possible, but I don't know which is best in that respect.) --Zundark 23:28 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Also, using HTML entities is going to (I think) restrict you to monotonic Greek, whereas words such as these are being quoted from historical, that is, polytonic Greek, right ?

heresy was considered an offense punishable by clerical or secular powers

What, they punished heretics by giving them powers? -- Wapcaplet 05:27 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Try substituting "authorities" for "powers". I'd change it in the article, but I don't think it's true: heresy could be discerned by religious inquisitions, but heretics were remanded to the secular authorities for punishment/execution on the grounds that the church did not "shed blood". -- Someone else 05:37 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've changed it to "heresy was considered a punishable offense". Short and uninformative, but hopefully accurate. :) -- Oliver P. 06:16 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Heresy is a value-judgment" is a bit sappy, and passive tense is a symptom of dodging the issue as ever ("heresy was considered an offense punishable...") but there are certain axioms that need to be worked out here, and then set into the entry's opening paragraphs. Please treat the following as stubs to work on: The Catholic Encyclopedia has a useful long entry of "Heresy" as you may imagine: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm Wetman 18:27, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Heresy depends on dogma. Without promulgated dogma arrived at by ecumenical understanding and officially promulgated, no opinions are yet "heretical."

Heresy, like orthodoxy, evolves in history. (The opposing view, namely that dogma exists outside of time from the Beginning and is merely sequentially revealed needs to be expressed in its own paragraph.) No statements about what a community believes make sense outside a historical framework.

Heresy exists within theology

(Your axiom goes here)

to be added

Thomas Aquinas wrote in his Summa Theologica that heretics deserve capital punishment. [[1]] StopCultPropaganda 20:44, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The Christian countercult movement are the modern successors of the battle agains the heretics. StopCultPropaganda 20:44, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

any number of people may claim the mantle of "modern successors of the battle against the heretics". The Christian countercult movement is just one, and in reality not even the most prominent. Wesley 04:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Revisionist history?

I started trying to fix the bad history and speculation in the following paragraph, but I think it may be better off deleted.

Since the orthodox church (really proto-orthodox) was originally just one group amongst many others (who all regarded themselves as followers of Jesus), calling these other versions of Christianity heresies seems slightly anachronistic if applied to groups who operated in or before the 3rd century (or perhaps even the early 4th century). Most of these creeds would have been seen at the time (by their followers at least) as being just as legitimate as the proto-orthodox group. The orthodox church succeded in a slow process of legitimation of its authority and was able to label all their enemies as heretics and persecute them (thus giving the term an association with illegitimacy). At the time the term was coined, it probably did not have nearly such negative associations (except among the proto-orthodox).

First, the "process of legitimation" was in full swing by middle to late first century when Paul wrote the epistles that comprise a large part of the New Testament. On many occasions, he defends his own apostleship, and urges Christians in various places to beware of false teachers, or of anything contrary to what was handed to them. The letters of John and Jude also warn of false teachers. Beyond these, Irenaeus of Lyons and Tertullian wrote their respective treatises against heresies in the second century. At the time Christianity was outlawed; the Church clearly managed to label its enemies as heretics without persecuting them. Assuming those two things always went together is what is anachronistic here. As for whether the word "heretic" had such negative associations, most or all of these writers used enough other, er, descriptive language to ensure the negative connotations were not lost on their readers. Besides, this article is primarily about heresy the concept, not heresy the word.

So, any objections to removing the paragraph, or suggestions for salvaging it? Wesley 03:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A good discussion of heresy contains a discussion of the historical unfolding of the orthodoxy that defines heresy. The sections is not specific or informative. Rather than just suppressing the section, can you recast it as a discussion of the unfolding of an orthodoxy, including your objections as you outline them here? Wetman 04:46, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Modern Heresy

(2004) The term heresy is increasingly used to mean the holding of ideas that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge; thus, religion is not a necessary component of the term's definition. For example, Charles Darwin of evolution fame is considered a heretic of his day.

I removed this here because "heresy" just is not used in this way by grown-ups, and the slightly tongue-in-cheek use of "heresy" in science, to make a point about its rigidly-held beliefs, has already been touched on in the Bob Bakker mention. More could be added to that comparison of "bad science" to religion. But there's nothing that scientists regard as "heretical" about Darwin, unless the word is to lose all point--- which may be the intention here. Wetman 10:13, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fortunately, the definition of the term heresy is gradually moving towards general applicability. Religion is not a necessary component of the definition. Wikipedia is not a podium for your personal beliefs. By the way, Charles Darwin was considered a heretic in his day as were Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and others. Additionally, the definition of heresy as it applies in modern contexts is supported by etymological research. I'm re-adding the section regardless of your dogma and will continue to re-add it every time you remove it. Your removal was wrong and I suggest you refrain from speaking on behalf of "grown-ups." All you need is a [good dictionary] ([1] [2] [3]. If such a definition is alien to you or doesn't conform to your perception of the topic, then I think the term has met its objective. Adraeus 00:34, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)