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June 19

"All your data is belong to us"

When a German says that, why is he making this mistake? How would it be in German? OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe AYBABTU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.52.130 (talk) 00:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's nothing to do with German. It's the (broken) English meme that the preceding poster linked to. --ColinFine (talk) 07:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Plenty of English-speakers (who presumably haven't studied Latin) use data as singular. —Tamfang (talk) 03:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Dock of the Bay

I have always been puzzled by the song title "(Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay". What exactly is the "dock of the bay"? Does it simply mean a dock (i.e. place for ships to moor) located in a bay (inlet of the sea)? If so, is "dock of the bay" normal English for such a meaning? 81.159.109.26 (talk) 00:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd have the same interpretation as you, but for my (Midwestern American) dialect I'd prefer on the bay (or maybe in the bay). Lsfreak (talk) 01:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

In American vernacular, the (nautically incorrect) word "dock" can be used to mean "pier" or "wharf". See Dock (maritime) which explains this usage. Strictly speaking, the proper definition of "dock" is "the place where the floaty things park" and is thus in the water itself, while the dry wooden place where people walk to get to the floaty things are either a "pier" (perpendicular to the land) or a "wharf" (parallel to the land). Otis Reading, not being a sailor, but being American, is using the word dock to mean a a man-made seaside structure. He's sitting on the edge of said structure, perhaps dangling his feet in the water, and enjoying the scenery. Wasting time. --Jayron32 01:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

In that meaning, does "of" seem like the correct preposition to you? 81.159.109.26 (talk) 01:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Chances are it fit the meter better. Grammar gets thrown out the window when poetics are involved. Mingmingla (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

However, any single-syllable preposition would fit the meter equally well. 86.160.222.45 (talk) 03:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Although the more correct by or on would be heavier than ǝ. —Tamfang (talk) 03:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Jayron, there's a place in England called Reading, which people unfamiliar with it tend to pronounce like the verb "reading". It is in fact pronounced "redding". Across the pond, Otis Redding was, as you say, an American, and if he had spelt his name Reading, it's likely people would have called him Otis "reeding". But they never have, in my experience. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

There is likewise a Reading, Pennsylvania, presumably named for Reading, England, and for which the Reading Railroad was presumably named, and which lives on as a square in Monopoly (game). And the word "read" by itself can be pronounced both "reed" and "red". And while "lead" can be pronounced both "leed" and "led"... and so on. Meanwhile, "Otis" is usually spelled "Otis" but can also be "Ottis", but that's typically pronounced like "oat" rather than "ott". Then there was Dock Ellis, who was pierless. The endless quirks of English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I can soon fix that. I hereby coin the word "quirksend" (sounds like a Kiwi saying "quicksand").  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

$200 is collected

MOS:YOU suggests "When Go is passed, $200 is corrected" to avoid the second person. But shouldn't it be "$200 are collected"? Or should I just be bold? -- Ypnypn (talk) 00:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, "is" is correct. Amounts of money are normally viewed as singular quantities (as are lengths of time ("three hours is a long time"), distances ("five miles is a long way"), etc.). You mean "collected", by the way... 81.159.109.26 (talk) 00:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

That's interesting... (Thanks for your collection.) -- Ypnypn (talk) 00:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

But Ypnypn, I've just noticed on your talk page that you are a native English speaker (I assumed you weren't when I answered). Does "$200 is collected" not sound correct to you? 81.159.109.26 (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

In text, when the $ symbol is used instead of "dollars", is seems right. But how about "Sixteen trillion dollars is owed by the American government"? Or "Twenty-six miles is run in a marathon"? These don't sound correct at all. (Of course, neither does the word coolly.} -- Ypnypn (talk) 01:33, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

You wouldn't say "the amount are" or "the distance are". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

But that's because the verb follows the subject. Take "The purchase was two apples" vs. "Two apples were purchased". -- Ypnypn (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

IMO "two apples were purchased" because two apples are seen as two discrete items, but "two dollars was owed" because we focus on the overall quantity, or amount, rather than the fact that it is two items, each of which is a dollar. "The purchase was two apples" is different because the verb subject has changed to an indisputably singular noun. 81.159.109.26 (talk) 02:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The cost was two dollars vs. The cost were two dollars. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Two dollars was the cost. Three corners has my hat.  Card Zero  (talk) 13:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

To me "Two hundred dollars were collected" is possible, but strongly suggests that what changed hands was a stack of one dollar bills. --ColinFine (talk) 08:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. (As a side note, Bugs, "the cost was two dollars" has to use a singular verb, since the subject of the sentence is "cost" which is singular; the "two dollars" doesn't enter into it.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No Expressions for God in Chinese?

Is it true that Chinese has no expressions for God and creation? --Omidinist (talk) 03:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Google Translate gives some options. Have you tried there? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:14, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

That simple! The guy is a philosopher who is making that claim. He says This is precisely why the missionaries were unable to translate into Chinese the first verse of the Pentateuch, because that language has no expressions for God and creation…. --Omidinist (talk) 04:39, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that the sentence "the missionaries were unable to translate into Chinese the first verse of the Pentateuch, because that language has no expressions for God and creation…" is a ridiculous claim. They may have found it hard and had to use a much longer sentence, but surely they were not "unable". "The only omnipotent being" can be used to replace the word God and "make" can be used to mean create, even though there must be a better equivalent for create, you can't claim that the concept of make doesn't have an equivalent in Chinese. --Lgriot (talk) 07:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Whether it is a ridculous claim rather depends on whether "unable" refers to the missionaries' inadequacy in the Chinese language or to supposed shortcomings in the language itself. 86.160.222.45 (talk) 11:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC) Sorry, ignore my comment, I didn't read it properly. 86.160.222.45 (talk) 12:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Well you kind of have a point, if they were not good in Chinese, they indeed might be "unable". But then, they would not try to translate, they would have other concerns, like survival in China without being able to communicate with the locals.--Lgriot (talk) 14:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Bearing in mind there is not a clear distinction in English (apart from the spelling with a capital letter) between God "the only supreme being" and god "one of supernatural spirits or beings", and the word creation is not originally English by itself, well, thus English also has (or at least had) "no expressions for God and creation". :) --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Lüboslóv Yęzýkin is right. Even in Chinese 神 can mean either 'god' or 'spirit'. However, surely, they could come up with a phrase meaning 'the highest/supreme god'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:06, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe he is talking about a single word for God (with capital g) which is absent in Chinese? And Creation in Abrahamic sense? Omidinist (talk) 13:54, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

"Creation" in all senses, including the Abrahamic sense, is just "making stuff", I don't see why it would be impossible to translate it in any language, especially not in a culture that has an industrious history of making stuff all the time. The method of making the universe is quite different from the human method, I acknowledge that, but that method is not described in the first verse, therefore I don't see why "create" is suitable in English, but the Chinese equivalent wouldn't be --Lgriot (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

---

Chinese has plenty of words referring to deities and the divine, but when Westerners wanted to express their religion in the Chinese language, they didn't really find a term which clearly referred to an omnipotent monotheistic God. Protestants and Catholics came up with different semi-stopgap solutions, which gave some Chinese-speakers the idea that Protestants and Catholics did not worship the same god. For further information, see Chinese terms for God... -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all comments, and thank you AnonMoos. The very first paragraph of that article explains the whole mess. Omidinist (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Both words ("God" and "creation") are used in Colossians 1:15, and both words are used in Revelation 3:14. Each of those external pages has a Simplified Chinese version in the seventh place in the first column. That website does not include the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah's Witnesses, but you can see those verses on their website at http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hans/wol/b/r23/lp-chs/51/1 (Colossians 1) and http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hans/wol/b/r23/lp-chs/66/3 (Revelation 3) in Simplified Chinese, and at http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hant/wol/b/r24/lp-ch/50/1 (Colossians 1) and http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hant/wol/b/r24/lp-ch/66/3 (Revelation 3) in Traditional Chinese.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:44, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

As those sources show, Chinese certainly has a verb meaning "to create". It is 创造 （simplified) [chuàngzào (pinyin)]. According to the most common Chinese story of creation, a being called Pangu created the world, but Pangu is not the omnipotent God to Chinese. The merging of creator and God into one entity would have been alien to non-Muslim Chinese when the first western Christian missionaries arrived. Marco polo (talk) 15:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Wavelength, can you inform me (as a non-Chinese-speaker) how the Watchtower Society renders LORD/YHWH/Jehovah into Chinese? Does it use the term [[listed as sounding most like 'Jehovah', or something else? Thanks. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

My knowledge of Chinese is very limited (I found the book of Colossians in the "index" by counting from Matthew), so I chose a verse where I know that the divine name occurs twice consecutively, namely, Exodus 34:6. You can see the English version at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/2/34. At http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hant/wol/b/r24/lp-ch/2/34, it is easy to find "耶和華". After I found that, I was able to use the search function to find the article about "耶和華" at http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hant/wol/d/r24/lp-ch/1200002391. That is Traditional Chinese. For Simplified Chinese, Exodus 34 is at http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hans/wol/b/r23/lp-chs/2/34, where it is easy to find "耶和华". There is an article about "耶和华" at http://m.wol.jw.org/zh-Hans/wol/d/r23/lp-chs/1200002391. The English version of that article is at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC) and 17:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia article "Jehovah" has an interlanguage link to the Traditional Chinese article zh:耶和華 and an interlanguage link to zh-yue:耶和華, where "zh-yue" apparently means "Yue Chinese". Wiktionary translates wikt:Jehovah to Traditional Chinese wikt:耶和華 and Simplified Chinese wikt:耶和华. The components are explained at wikt:耶 and wikt:和 and wikt:華 and wikt:华.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC) and 22:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Anonmoos has a point there. Christianity in the Far East is quite complex. I had students who went to a 'christian school', and when I told them my family was catholic, they insisted that catholicism wasn't christian, and yet they worshipped the Pope. Most of them really don't have a clue, to be honest. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

That's because of a confused translation: Christianity and Protestantism can be translated into Chinese (and I expect, some other East Asian languages) with the same word -- as I understand it, originally the work of Protestant missionaries. This has resulted in a distinction in general understandings of these denominations between Catholicism on the one hand (in Mandarin Chinese: tianzhujiao - "the religion of the lord of heaven"), and Protestantism or Christianity on the other hand (in Mandarin Chinese: jidujiao - "the religion of Christ"). It's just a matter of semantics, though, I'm pretty sure most people will understand that the two sects share common features, they just don't have a word to describe them together because to them the "the religion of Christ" means only Protestant Christianity.

(For people who are more aware of the nuances, they would usually use jidujiao (the religion of Christ) to mean Christianity as a whole, and xinjiao (the new religion) to mean Protestantism. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:45, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Unfortunately, the reciprocal is true. Most people in the UK think Nirvana is a band whose singer shot himself. However, even in the Far East, people want this little father figure to help them. Why can't people just sort their own fucking lives out? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

ch?

Hello. I was recently playing Scrabble^® on Facebook, and my opponent played the two-letter word "ch". The word list attached to the game says it is valid, but I can't find it in the online Scrabble^® dictionary, nor in any other dictionary. Is it really a word? If not, why is it on the game's word list?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 14:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The Chambers Dictionary (or at least the iPhone app version), which is used to be the usual arbiter for Scrabble words in the UK, lists 'ch', with definition: '(SW Eng dialect; obsolete) A short form of the first person singular pronoun ich, always fused with the verb, as cham I am, chave I have, chill I will.' So it's not really a word in its own right, but presumably it's accepted as it appears as a headword in Chambers. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) First of all you need to know that there are two official word lists for Scrabble, OWL2 (formerly known as TWL) and SOWPODS. OWL2 is used in competitions in North America, whilst SOWPODS is used in Britain and internationally (sometimes under the name OSWI). Ch is only found in SOWPODS and not OWL2. This gives us a lead for the definition, since it's obviously therefore a word found in Britain and not the US. This forum post suggests that the word is an obsolete dialect form of 'I' from south-west England, deriving from the custom of using 'Ich' (as in modern German) for the first person singular pronoun. This was shortened to simply 'ch'. Here is a paper referring to the area around the River Parrett as 'the land of Utch', and noting that "Some twenty years later, in 1897, reviewing the situation in the same area, he stated that, though surviving in the locality, utch was now “worn down to a mere faint ch”". There's also a quote from Thomas Hardy showing that German pronouns were used in the West Country around his time. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. I may have got the information about the names of the Scrabble dictionaries wrong. I've certainly linked the wrong article for OWL2. I'm not a Scrabble player, so I was going off the info here. Maybe someone else can help me straighten out the mess. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:06, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It's at Official Tournament and Club Word List. I think OWL2 needs to be a disambiguation page, not a redirect. I've now made that change; somebody tell me if I've done it wrong.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Ch regret to inform you that you've done it wrong. One bluelink per entry. Off to dab purgatory for you. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

German Translation!

My girlfriend has given me a note in German (which I don't speak/read/write, but she DOES) and I have no idea what it says. I'm sure it's very nice and thoughtful, but....yeah. Normally for her one sentence things I can struggle through google translate. No such luck here, it's too long and google loses all meaning.

Da steh ich und muß denken und muß sinnen, so wie ein Traumender verloren sinnt. Mein ganzes Herze Konntest du gewinnen, in einen Augenblick, geliebtes kind. und um nun Sein die leichten Fäden spinnen, die zart and weich, doch unzerreißbar sind. In meinen Busen gleiht ein wonnig Minnen, und längst erwachten schon so sanft wund lind des Herzens süße - zartgehegte. Triebe im goldnen Morgenstrahl der jungen Liebe.

some of the lower case m's may be actually n's.

thanks!24.218.57.201 (talk) 16:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's a poem. A google search should identify the author. Here's google translate which gives a vague idea of the sense. gt. μηδείς (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I said above that I punched it through google translate and found it less than useful -- I appreciate the help that it's a poem.24.218.57.201 (talk) 16:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It's by Rilke; see here. Deor (talk) 16:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• thanks Deor! I totally thought she'd written it though! (and that Rilke was her "german" name. Yes she added that part...RED FACED AM I)24.218.57.201 (talk) 16:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

That she's not the original author doesn't mean she didn't mean it. Deor (talk) 16:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's my attempt at a translation:

Here I stand and must think and must ponder,

Just as a lost dreamer ponders.

You could win my whole heart,

In the blink of an eye, beloved child,

And around my being spin the light threads,

Sweet and delicate, and thus unbreakable.

In my bosom glows a blissful passion,

And long ago, so gentle and so soft,

Awoke the heart's own sweetness -

Delicately nurtured shoots of young love

In the beams of morning light.

AlexTiefling (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that there are many typos in the note... check out Deor's link for the correct text. --KnightMove (talk) 17:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

For "doch unzerreißbar" I would put "but unbreakable" or "and yet unbreakable". Otherwise a pretty fair rendering. -- Elphion (talk) 17:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Etymology of "Homo"

Is there any connection between the greek-derived homo ("same"), and the latin-derived homo ("human")? -- 71.35.127.227 (talk) 16:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No -- Greek initial "h" comes from Proto-Indo-European "s" in this context, while Latin initial "h" comes from Proto-Indo-European "gh". One source traces the two words back to Proto-Indo-European roots sem- and dhghem-... AnonMoos (talk) 16:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, Greek homo is cognate with English same and Latin homo is cognate with Greek Chthon and English groom > likely 'goon', from an original root meaning "earthling". μηδείς (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Huh, so "groom" comes from OE "guma"? Nyttend (talk) 16:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, only when it stands for "bridegroom", which was certainly altered from "bridguma". But that very alteration seems to have been under the influence of an existing word "groom" (originally "boy", "young man"), for which the OED does not give a settled etymology. --ColinFine (talk) 17:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was unclear of me. Two modern English words seem to be reflexes of the PIE *dhghem root. Bridegroom is known originally to have been bridguma as Colin mentions, with the insertion of -r- an irregularity explained by interference from the separate word groom.. Goon may also possibly descend from guma. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

message

Can the word message pronounce /ˈmɛseɪdʒ/ ? 198.105.116.142 (talk) 18:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Not really. At least, I can't imagine a native speaker of any variety of English I'm familiar with pronouncing that way. It's /ˈmɛsɪdʒ/ or, for those with the weak vowel merger, /ˈmɛsədʒ/. Angr (talk) 18:20, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Reminds me of "Will this wind be so mighty as to lay low the mountains of the arrth?". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

When I try to pronounce the OP's version (maybe incorrectly, I don't really understand this system), the voice of Gomer Pyle comes into my head. (If you don't know what that means, try Youtube.) Looie496 (talk) 13:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

What languages are used in this Sailor Moon multilanuage anime video?

I recognize the German language used in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfNe-se5GPU bit I don't recognize the languages Ypea , Albertish, and Anokasa. Could someone please tell what countries these languages are in? Venustar84 (talk) 19:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Without having seen the video: Ethnologue, Omniglot and de:WP do not know these terms. I doubt they are languages. --79.195.115.161 (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

enquête

sock of blocked user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is there a Quebecois can record the word enquête in Wikimedia ? 198.105.116.142 (talk) 20:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC) To clarify, are you asking for a sound recording of the word as pronounced in Quebec?� —Tamfang (talk) 03:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC) I want someone records the pronunciation of the word enquête with a Quebec accent ? 198.105.116.142 (talk) 11:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC) See User:Fête for details of the user's global block and history asking for recordings of words in Quebecois ending in -ête. μηδείς (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Contemporary UK argot

A recent case on BAILII concerns a chap who was convicted of witness intimidation for sending the following message:

How you gonna get every I shift wtf [C] bmt I beg you drop all da charges ova wise you know every 1z gona be calin ppl afta u n ur family n dat bmt I dnt want dat we didn't even do nutin to you I try stop it 4 fuk sake please on a bmt level just drop every charge.

A sad reflection on the standards of education among the UK's criminal classes, I know. However, what does "bmt" mean in this context? A quick Google search only reveals references to one of Subway's sandwiches. Tevildo (talk) 23:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No idea. This is slumdog speech, and most of them can't even understand eachother. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the world is sadly lacking in highly educated criminals. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Big man ting looks plausible. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Big Man Ting (Don't know how to make the link work). Henry^Flower 02:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Just copy the URL: like this. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Possibly a misspelling of bnt => bint (an insulting term for woman) MChesterMC (talk) 09:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, while that makes sense in the first context, it doesn't work in the second... MChesterMC (talk) 09:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it's a misspelling of 'bint' - three times, the exact same typo, plus 'bint' is only used by very old men these days (I, however, use it occasionally). It comes from Arabic for 'daughter', and I don't use it offensively. As for the 'bmt', I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. I get these types of messages on my phone and on Facebook, and I really want to shout out loud at them - very loud - and say "Did you fucking go to school? Did you learn English? Can you write? Don't write to me like this, I will give you a box of crayons (that you will probably eat)." KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it's more like "black man ting", judging from the rest of the argot. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Henry: according to Urban Dictionary it means "Big Man Ting", which is London argot for "I really really mean what I'm saying". Looie496 (talk) 16:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the info! "Please on a bmt level" is actually quite a neat way of expressing both "Please, in the most sincere way I can express it", and "'Please', in the sense that I, as a Big Man(TM), do not expect my will to be thwarted by a mere chit of a girl, and expect you to comply." Not that Mr Z is likely to have consciously constructed the phrase in that fashion. Tevildo (talk) 21:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

June 20

Шозбат!

22 minutes into season seven of Dexter, Viktor Baskov curses his bad luck with an expletive that sounds almost like Mork's shazbat!. Any ideas what the word might be, in either Ukrainian or Russian? —Tamfang (talk) 02:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The бат might have something to do with the verb ебать, to fuck. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't make it out. To me it sounded like he said Stolzfus! in German. μηδείς (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Howard Cosell's accent

What label encompasses the accent with which sports broadcaster Howard Cosell spoke? 20.137.2.50 (talk) 14:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

He was born in North Carolina, raised in Brooklyn, and started out as a NYC lawyer. I would say he wasn't known for his dialect, so much as his idiolect. μηδείς (talk) 18:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, good answer. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Cosell's way of talking was so unique that it used to be said that "he sounds like an imitation of himself". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Although the rhythm of his speech was fairly idiosyncratic, he nonetheless retained many aspects of the New York dialect (which article lists him as an example), such as non-rhotacism. Deor (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Stroke order

What is the logic behind the stroke order of Chinese characters? Take for example [人]. Why not make it with just one movement, starting left, going up and coming down, in the same way as we would write an 'i', but without a dot? Why not make them easier to write? OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There are a few reasons here.

1. Many writing standards have historical bases, and a lot come from calligraphy. If you're writing with a brush (as people did once upon a time), 人 would look different if you wrote it in one movement (there would be the biggest, thickest part in the lower left, as opposed to the top where it's supposed to be).
2. The example you give cannot actually be written in one stroke anyway, unless you backtrack without lifting up your pen. It may look that way when you're looking at it on a computer in certain fonts, but in handwriting the second stroke is actually supposed to start lower than the first stroke; see this animation. So what you're suggesting is not even really possible. Most of the radicals that are written with multiple strokes are ones that really must be--like 宀 (see it in handwriting as the upper half of this--as you can see, it can't be done in less than three strokes). There are only a few exceptions to this, like 口 (here).
3. You can't make a direct comparison between Chinese characters and our cursive. While some letters, like 人, look like they could maybe be written in a single stroke (but see above), how would you propose to write 藏 in a single stroke? 额? Or 三? These are just a few examples.
4. That being said, stroke order is not necessarily "logical". As you can see from Stroke order#Stroke order per polity, people writing the same characters in different countries will often write it with different stroke orders; that alone is enough to suggest that the stroke order you learn is not the "best" or the only naturally possible order. Just like most writing and language conventions, stroke order is somewhat arbitrary and learned and you can't expect it to conform perfectly to "logic". But if you want your handwriting to look like native speakers' writing, it's best to learn the correct stroke order (if you even write with a pen at all these days...)

rʨanaɢ (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Your example stroke is not practical at all because traditionally, CJK languages are written vertically in columns going from top to bottom and ordered from right to left, with each new column starting to the left of the preceding one. See Horizontal and vertical writing in East Asian scripts. Oda Mari (talk) 16:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand that this is related to how the scrolls are/were unrolled for writing. But I am wondering whether there is a similar explanation to how individual characters are written (from top to bottom and left to right). Top to bottom makes sense, since the texts were written top to bottom as well, but why not right to left? bamse (talk) 10:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Characters look different depending on stroke order. Width and pressure of lines in the wrong place make the characters look "wrong", even though they are perfectly legible (unless you're me. My wife has a good laugh when I try to copy her writing. I have no clue what I'm doing, and no, I can't read or speak Chinese. My name user name may mislead you a bit.) Mingmingla (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Whilst

I frequently use whilst in my writing; however, I was wondering: what is the difference between "while" and "whilst"? All I've been able to think of are some instances where "whilst" sounds a little awkward in a sentence and "while" would make it flow better... thanks! --Yellow1996 (talk) 16:43, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

See wikt:whilst -- as that entry notes, it is synonymous with "while" but it's a Britishism: "Rare in North America and may be considered archaic, pedantic or pompous.". I don't believe I have ever even once used it. Looie496 (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, that would explain why many people that read my stuff think I'm archaic, pedantic and pompous. ;) I use a lot of Britishisms in my writing, probably on account of the fact I read lots of old British books (or old North American books, back when those types of words were more frequently used...) Thanks! :) --Yellow1996 (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Until recently, British style manuals generally discouraged "whilst", and even today "whilst" seems rare in formal writing. -- Elphion (talk) 17:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Could be useful in an ambiguous sentence such as I got duck legs for a little while in China. It's an adverbial genitive, apparently, whereas while can be a noun. (Though the adverbial genitive page says that those are also nouns in some sense. I don't know.)  Card Zero  (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your example, CZ. What does "I got duck legs for a little" mean? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

For a little (money). OK, not very idiomatic. Perhaps "for only a little" would have worked better.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Seems a bit contrived. How about:

• How did you survive in Asia without much money?
• Oh, I was a sex worker in Vietnam, and I taught a little while/st in China. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

That example only uses "whilst" to eliminate an interpretation that was unlikely in the first place. Mind you, so does mine. With hours of careful work and intense concentration, I bet it would be possible to come up with an example that doesn't seem contrived at all.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure there's one out there somewhere. But this sort of proves the point, doesn't it. It is hardly ever - almost never - necessary to resort to "whilst". I've had discussions with people here who readily admit they never use the word in speech, but feel it's inappropriate to use "while" in writing if "whilst" is available. None can point to any authority for this belief. I see it used by writers whose writing skills are, frankly, execrable. Why it should have such a foothold in the minds of the multitude is a mystery to me. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This subject came up before, at which time I remembered having read something about 20 years ago about what I think may have been called "adverbial s" in English. I couldn't find the reference, and can't find it now, so don't trust my memory entirely. It's found in words like besides, since, hence (where I believe it originates as a genitive) and you come acrost it in words like amongst and amidst, which don't bother Americans in the least. In fact, my father often tells the story of the farmer's daughter he met who sits amongst the beans and pees. μηδείς (talk) 00:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I mist the comment above on the adverbial genitive, see that. μηδείς (talk) 00:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

It's probably to do with Register (sociolinguistics). Words of Latin origin sound scientific; perhaps antiquated (but not obsolete) words sound wise and serious, redolent of legalese. In While, the picture shows whilst appearing on a warning notice - a serious context. It could be worse, anyway: Norwegian language conflict.  Card Zero  (talk) 01:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"Whilst" was used by Shakespeare, Donne, Defoe, Scott, Thackeray, and many other writers right up to the 21st century, so I don't see why we (Yellow1996 and I and anyone else) can't continue to use it (though I tend to reserve it for occasions when I want to emphasis a contrast). Dbfirs 07:21, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Bag

This is an interesting one for me. In English, we use the word 'bag' for a woman as a term of contempt, whereas in Japanese they use the word 'fukuro' (meaning 'bag') as a term of endearment for mothers. Are there any other languages that use this term - either as a term of contempt or endearment? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Dutch 'zak' (meaning 'bag') is a term of contempt, but not specifically for women; rather it is equivalent to English 'asshole', 'jerk' and may be a shortened form of (vulgar) 'klootzak' (lit. 'ballsack'), which has basically the same meaning. - Lindert (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Same with German Sack, although it's not common as a term of contempt on its own. An alter Sack is an old fart (usually male, but it could probably be applied to old women as well). The usual German equivalent of "old bag" (female) is alte Schachtel (old box). Angr (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

"Bag" isn't much used in US English as a term for women. The only exception I can think of is "old bag", which is insulting. StuRat (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Language improvements/your input on specific article

Rjanag removed my request previously as spam. Not sure why, so I'm reposting it. In the spirit of WP:IAR and improving the encyclopedia, I don't see any problem with requesting language-specific help from this desk for articles.

So then, this is a request for help on an article rather than a specific question. I've started a push to get Honda S2000 up to FA quality. While I'm fixing references and content, it would be great if you could edit directly (or comment on the talk page) to improve the language and tone. The aim is to turn the article into brilliant prose. Specifically, I'm requesting input on three things:

1. Overall layout and flow of the article. Are the sections in logical order? Do they tell a compelling story? Are there any jarring segues? Is it "brilliant prose" (it really isn't at this stage)?
2. Flow of sections and paragraphs. Are the sections coherent? Do the paragraphs naturally lead from one to the next?
3. Flow of specific paragraphs and sentences. There are quite a few instances of awkward wording in sentences or whole paragraphs. Would like some expert writing rather than a ham-fisted effort from me to bring these up to snuff.

Of course any other improvements would be most welcome. I've also created a talk page section to capture comments if you don't want to edit directly. Thanks. Zunaid 20:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I did post on your talk page, coming from the notice above. But the point is that we have other procedures to get you help in the writing style of the article. You need to request a copy-edit. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't the venue for getting help bringing an article up to FA. Angr (talk) 21:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Zunaid: the reference desks are for asking specific questions and getting specific answers. For help with a project (such as an article), you can use one of the other venues suggested by the editors above and at your article's talk page. rʨanaɢ (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

In the OP's defence, we often have people come here asking for our opinions on certain pieces of writing, and we almost always happily oblige with said opinions, as well as suggestions for improvement. If we're going to be hardline in our policy - and I'm not saying we shouldn't be - then we should apply it consistently to all comers. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

But those are mostly non-Wikipedians who probably don't know what other writing-improvement resources we have – and they're mostly asking about non-Wikipedia writing (so that WP:Peer review would be the wrong place for them anyway). The OP is hardly a newbie, having been a contributor for almost 8 years, and really ought to know that the Reference Desk isn't the place to get help improving a Wikipedia article. Angr (talk) 18:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Still, it raises the issue. When we do help people with their writing, that's about us bringing our own knowledge and skill to the table, rather than providing any kind of reference (usually), which is what we say we're here for. If this sort of help - however we may delimit it - is a legitimate part of our role here, we ought to be upfront about it and welcome such questions in our signage. If it's not appropriate, we shouldn't do it for anybody. Maybe this should now continue on the talk page. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

To me the difference seems like this: the situations you're describing are where people are asking about e.g. a specific sentence (at least, in the instances I can think of), so it really is more like asking one question ("how can this be worded better"), whereas asking about a whole article is really asking someone to do work rather than asking for an answer to a question. (I'm fine with moving this over to the talk page if you want to just paste the whole section over or something.) 108.207.118.57 (talk) 23:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC) (User:Rjanag, not logged in)

To go down

Wiktionary, Merriam-Webster and Oxford Dictionaries don't mention it as a meaning, but still I'm not sure: Might the expression to go down be used for any activity in some way lowering your body? Like, for example, bowing, curtsey, fall down on your knees, to get down... --KnightMove (talk) 23:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

In my particular age group it's a euphemism for oral sex. Calidum Sistere 23:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I already knew that... ok, I agree that it fits my question. So, no others? --KnightMove (talk) 23:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Networks go down. μηδείς (talk) 00:40, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

And you can go down to the shops, or down to the pub, etc. (This could be British English only, I'm not sure) -- Q Chris (talk) 07:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Usually just "down the pub", in my (BrE) experience, even if "motion toward" is implied: "Let's go down the pub after work". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

To "go down the shore" is typically mentioned as a Delaware Valley-ism. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, to "Go down Cape" is to head towards Provincetown, Massachusetts. Going up Cape is towards Bourne, Massachusetts. --Jayron32 19:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

To get down means to dance. Maybe that was what you are thinking of? --Jayron32 01:01, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

You can certainly "go down on your knees", but "go down" by itself isn't usually used that way. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Or "going down" as in being defeated, possibly from what can happen to the loser in a boxing match. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:20, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Moses went down HiLo48 (talk) 04:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"Does your wife go?" - She sometimes goes, yes. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"I must go down to the seas again ..."    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 10:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"Workin' in a coal mine, goin' down down..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• To decrease in value, as in "Did the stock market go down today ?" or "Will gas prices go down ?".

• To decrease in size, as in "The American car industry has been going down for decades."

• To decrease in other ways, such as "My grade point average will go down as a result of that final exam". StuRat (talk) 22:51, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, whenever I had a History exam at school, I always knew I was about to "go down in History". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

That one is so old it's on Medicare. And worse yet, you beat me to it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• ... also "to be sent to prison" (is this UK only?) (missing from Wiktionary, though they do have wikt:send down) Dbfirs 07:03, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

How do ejectives usually develop from non-ejective consonants?

129.78.233.211 (talk) 23:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It's discussed in conjunction with stød, a characteristic of Danish. (Kortland argues stød may actually be a retention from PIE, rather than an innovation within Danish.) See also ejectives. μηδείς (talk) 00:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The paths I've heard of are:

• Coalescence with adjacent glottal stops or glottalized vowels (though it's possible some of these are artifacts of analysis, and what appears to be [tuˀ] > [t'u] is really the other way around)
• Glottal reinforcement (English; voiceless stops are preglottalized medially and word-finally; before a pause, this can surface as ejection, assuming this isn't inherited from (pre-)PIE)
• Devoicing and reanalysis of implosives
• Allophonic alternation with implosives (Mam, though proto-Mayan had a set of glottalized stops to begin with)
• Optional boundary markers (at least one Totonacan dialect uses aspiration or glottalization to mark a pause, which can surface as ejectivization)
• Influence of nearby languages (Eastern Armenian and many Southern Bantu languages have ejectives instead of plain stops, from Caucasian and Khoisan influence).
• I have no solid example, but I've heard gemination may lead to ejectivization via debuccalization of one of the elements, i.e. [pp] > [ʔp] > [p'] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lsfreak (talk • contribs) 02:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, a paper was published very recently in PLOS One that argues that regions of higher altitude are more likely to have ejectives: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065275. The conclusions have been widely challenged, however; see [1], [2], and [3], among others. rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

June 21

Must be the season of the which we spoke earlier

“ ... to rest his deadly rifle when it wasn't seeking gore
The which it must have often been, for Major Percy Brown.... ” — Robert W. Service, The Ballad of the Ice-Worm Cocktail

What is this the which? Is it any different from just plain which? For example, is it more likely to have as referent a state of affairs than a concrete object? Is there anyone here who uses it productively, and can report intuitions about it? --Trovatore (talk) 08:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

My immediate sense is that the "The" helps the rhythm of the words. Take it out and read it out, and see if you don't fail not to disagree with me. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I found the passage easier to understand in the context of the whole poem - see here. I have no particular source or anything, but my gut feeling is that Mr Service is just adding the extra word to better fit the rhythm. Simply 'which' would make better sense, or maybe 'the likes of which' - not so good, but better than 'the which'. I'm guessing that he just really needed a one-syllable word that wouldn't really upset the meaning too drastically, sucked on the end of his pen for about 30 seconds, got bored, stuck 'The' in there and got back to work. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

It's simply an archaism. e.g. Acts 20:28 (KJV): "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers." --Viennese Waltz 09:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Probably calqued on French lequel. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, that actually leads into a subordinate point I'm interested in. In Italian you say il quale in pretty much exactly the way you might use lequel in French. But there's also il che, which I think is for abstract situations rather than concrete objects: Gianni promise di arrivare in anticipo, il che fece fedelmente. When we covered il che in class, I thought of it as basically an exact translation of "the which". But both are used so rarely that I can hardly be sure.

I note by the way that, later in the same poem, Service uses it for a concrete object, which casts doubt on my hypothesis:

Then deeply in a drawer he sought, and there he found a jar

The which with due and proper pride he put upon the bar

So maybe it's all nonsense. But if anyone has any more precise information, I'd love to hear it. --Trovatore (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I can but offer another immediate subjective impression, namely, that the reason is exactly the same as I suggested for the first excerpt. But as well as that, we now have the principle of parallel construction. As you know, poems exist primarily as spoken rather than read texts, and it is the sound of the poem and its impact on the listener - rather than the look of it and its impact on the reader - that's the important thing. Had Service NOT used "the" in the second example, a keen-eared listener with a reasonable memory would have noticed the mismatch, and that would have derailed their attention (if only momentarily), and that would have been fatal (if only momentarily). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

And no thoughts on il che? --Trovatore (talk) 19:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

My knowledge of Italian does not extend to such things. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

because Jesus

The website Wonkette often gleefully adopts and recycles language associated with the political and social groups it ridicules, and so for example it goes from this to "Glenn Beck says Obama’s not a Muslin but a perverted-Christian whatever". One frequently occurring formula is because + noun phrase, e.g. "Exodus International, an organization founded to “help” LGBT people not be gay anymore because Jesus, will now cease to exist" (my emphasis). In my own idiolect, because doesn't license a noun phrase (or determiner phrase, if you prefer). And I don't think I've ever heard an example of because+NP, or read one outside Wonkette. Is it just a Wonkette invention, or is it part of some real-world US lect? -- Hoary (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've seen this as a recent piece of online slang in a number of places, especially in a generic form - "because reasons", meaning 'for reasons that are either poorly-explained or insufficient'. I don't think it's part of any established spoken dialect. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I concur with Alex. It occurs mostly in blogs and fora, although I've now begun to see it in science fiction fanzines as well. I've never encountered it in spoken English, and am not sure it would work in that format. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've heard and used it in spoken English, and never thought of it being strange until reading this. The most common form in my social group (native English speakers living in China) is "because China", meaning "because of some aspect of Chinese culture / politics / society which is completely different from the West"; the implication is almost always negative. It's definitely a recent thing - perhaps native English-speakers abroad are more likely to adopt internet slang into spoken English because most of our English interaction is online? 111.192.158.166 (talk) 05:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

See http://www.onelook.com/?w=because+of&ls=a.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:19, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

For me it comes across as flustered, at a loss for words ("I did it because...because....because something!"). I wonder if that's where it came from, to mock the thing being described (in your example it's probably being used to make Exodus International sound as stupid as I imagine it is). 108.207.118.57 (talk) 23:17, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

It reminds me a little of the Italian response perché sí to the question perché?. Doesn't work as well in English ("Why? Because yes."), but you get the idea. --Trovatore (talk) 00:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree in part with 108. I've usually seen in used mockingly, to say the target of the mocking is unable to come up with any legitimate response (except maybe emotional nonsense or repeating what's already been said), often when a belief has no standing and they're trying desperately to hold onto what they believe. Lsfreak (talk) 06:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

A variant often seen on cracked.com: "because fuck you," i.e. because they can get away with it (they don't got to show you no stinkin badges). —Tamfang (talk) 20:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, all. -- Hoary (talk) 14:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I would use because + noun in shorthand text messages, where I don't bother with grammar: "Not coming to work today because sickness. Hope to be better tomorrow. Any urgent problem, call mobile." --Lgriot (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

You couldn't write "because sick"? —Tamfang (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Is 'Hannibal Lecter' actually a plausible Lithuanian name?

Question as topic. Just having a discussion with someone about the Hannibal quadrilogy and the new TV series today and this subject came up. Thanks. --91.125.145.38 (talk) 23:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe the surname was created out of whole cloth by Thomas Harris. There are only three people in either the U.S. or Canada with the surname Lecter in the public White Pages, which would make it an exceedingly rare surname. I have no idea what ethnicity they are (prior to being Canadian), but the name is rare enough that it seems likely that Harris just invented it for his books rather than took it from any name he knew. --Jayron32 01:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Lector and Lektor are rare, but exist, and would parallel last names such as Priest, Proctor and Cantor. There are both Catholic and Jewish Lithuanians, so a name with such a religious origin would be possible. But there's nothing about Lecter that makes it plausibly Lithuanian except as a misspelling of the terms in -or. μηδείς (talk) 01:34, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

That mispelling would be possible in English, but not Lithuanian, first of all because "c" would never be substituted for "k", and also because the "er" doesn't sound anything like "or", unlike in English. Much more plausible is that it is the Lithuanianized or Polonized spelling of the German surname "Letzter" (the last guy). Plenty of people with German surnames in Lithuania and Poland adapted to the local spelling, like Szulc, Fryc, Szwarc, Buc etc. It's entirely plausible that the name "Lecter" could be a Lithuanian name. Whether it actually occurs is a different matter. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:06, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It may be infinitesimally plausible that Letzter has been borrowed into Lithuanian as Lecter. There is no chance that it is native Lithuanian. You might as well call it plausible Cymro-Lithoanian for that. μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Let me just consult my Welsh-Lithuanian Dictionary that's been gathering dust on my shelves for the past 40 years. I always knew that $500 wouldn't be a wasted investment. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

A very large portion of ethnic Lithuanians do not have native Lithuanian names [[4]]. Polish names are very common, and German names common enough. Welsh names, on the other hand, are not. A Lithuanian with a German last name is very plausible. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

When I said it was not a Lithuanian name, I didn't find it necessary to say some Lithuanians don't have non-Lithuanian names. I have Ruthenian great-grandparents with Russified German and Hungarian names. I am sure you are aware that final -er in Germanic is either a root-internal inheritance from PIE (English star, far) or an ending developed through rhotacism after Germanic separated from Baltic. In either case, Lecter itself could not be Lithuanian, although, as you point out, if a Welshman with the name were to move to Lithuania there would be a Lithuanian with the name. The OP can let me know if anything I have said needs further qualifying. μηδείς (talk) 03:25, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Not just "some" Lituanians. A LOT of ETHNIC Lithuanians, perhaps most, bear surnames that originate from Polish or German. Lithuanian was a minority language in Lithuania at the time surnames became fashionable. This was definitely most in the Vilnius area, where the Lecter estate was said to be. A Welshman moving to Poland is not an ethnic Lithuanian. All in all, by far the most plausible explanation of the surname Lecter in someone living in Lithuania is a Lithuanized/Polonized spelling of the German surname Letzter, all the more so as the surname occurs in Poland. Lektor is not a possible source. By the way, my maternal grandmothers name was Radziwiłł, a Polonized genuine Lithuanian name.

Now, the big question is how the Lecter estate could have been in Lithuania at all during the interwar period if it was "just outside Vilnius". That would have been in Poland at the time, and the population of that area was overwhelmingly Polish, and Lithuanians were a tiny minority. [[5]]. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

the big question is how the Lecter estate could have been in Lithuania at all during the interwar period if it was "just outside Vilnius" - "geographic" Lithuania? (I don't keep up with the series so I'm not sure if that's plausible) Volunteer Marek 05:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

If one wants, one can reread me; I haven't said there's no name Letzter or that in Lithuanian spelling that could not very nicely be rendered Lecter. Believe me, I am all for Lithuanian pride, I know all about the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and know plenty of people named Litwak, Maceikis, and so forth. What I have done is try to answer the OP's question, could such a name plausibly be Lithuanian, to which the answer is, no. It could be a transliteration of German, as you say, into Lithuanian itself, or it could be a misspelling, I said, of lector/lektor in English. I hope that is clear. μηδείς (talk) 04:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Allright, thanks. What about 'Hannibal' as a first name though? Are there people in Lithuania with that name? As far as I can remember, Hannibal Lecter is supposed to have been born into the Lithuanian aristocracy. And that is his real name - because there's reference in the books to his father 'Count Lecter' and to 'Castle Lecter'. I don't know if Thomas Harris knew what Hannibal's ethnic background was when he first created the character though. Lecter was actually quite a minor character in the Red Dragon book. --91.125.145.38 (talk) 21:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Hannibal is not the spelling used in either Latvian or Lithuanian. But as a surname it's rather pan-European. The moveі to America is the complication. For example, I know a Hanna Fricki (Ганна фріцки) whose American name was Anna Fritsky. Do the books actually give a Lithuanian origin? I read from Red Dragon (before SotL) through Hannibal, but don't remember that, and always assumed it was an anagram. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

His mother, Simonetta Sforza, was italian, from a very ancient bloodline. She (and Hannibal as wells) descend from both the Visconti and Sforza families in Milano. It is very possible she named him Hannibal after Hannibal of Carthage. Why not? —AndresGuazzelli (talk · contribs) added this paragraph today and bizarrely placed it so that Medeis appeared to be responding to him. I restored Medeis's original indentation. —Tamfang (talk) 00:16, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, in Lithuanian Wikipedia the character's name is translated as lt:Hanibalas Lekteris. lt:Hanibalas is the Lithuanian form of Hannibal; as can be seen, grammatical endings have been added to allow the name to be declined. Double sharp (talk) 09:10, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

June 22

greek

why ω disappears from gen, sg αἴθονος (αἴθων , ωνος,)?--82.81.118.156 (talk) 06:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

In the third declension, usually the true stem appears in the oblique cases, while the nominative singular shows modifications, due to the original stem-final consonant being placed in word-final position (and often being deleted), due to an "s" consonant being added directly to the end of the stem, or due to other modifications (such as lengthenings). (Of course, in a complicated form like θριξ / τριχος it's possible that neither the nominative nor the oblique shows the true form of the underlying stem.) If αιθων has both the genitives αιθωνος and αιθονος (the latter not listed in my dictionary), it's presumably due to a mixture of stem-types (both a stem with basic short o and a stem with long o would give αιθων in the nominative singular)...AnonMoos (talk) 07:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know spanish? Google translate sucks because it's translated sentences don't make sense.

How exactly do I write this sentence be in english: A fines dé 1954 Hollywood había renunciado a las 3 D, mientras proseguían en la URSS las demostraciones del Stereo-Kino Ivanov, atracción limitada a algunas grandes ciudades? Please do NOT use google translate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.170.206 (talk) 07:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Google Translate comes pretty close, it seems. Just a tweak or two so it reads better or gives you some options on saying it: "In late / By the end of 1954, Hollywood had renounced / given up on 3-D, while pursuing / continuing in the USSR demonstrations / showings of the Stereo-Kino Ivanov, [the / an] attraction limited to a few large cities." That term Stereo-Kino would be the Russian way (стерео кино) to say "stereo film" (as in stereography for 3-D photographs). The Ivanov refers to a Russian filmmaker.[6] And it looks like you asked this question elsewhere, on a site I won't link to due to pop-up ads, but it was near the top of the list when I googled 'Stereo-Kino Ivanov'. Did you get any usable answers there? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

By the end of 1954 Hollywood had given up on 3D film, while in the USSR showings continued of the Ivanov Stereo-Kino, in a few large cities only. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:53, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd say abandoned rather than renounced. —Tamfang (talk) 19:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

English language

I would like to ask a few questions:

A. In a song a singer tries to express that he wishes to shout up to the sky and let the wind take his voice and carry it away. Which one of the following better describe that:

1. "Let the wind take away my voice"

2. "Let the wind carry my voice away"

I prefer No. 2. No. 1 is more about losing one's voice due to e.g. laryngitis from overexposure to wind. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I could see "Let the wind take my voice" working as well. Though it kind of implies the wind is taking it somewhere in particular, just leaving it unstated as to where, in a way "carry my voice away" doesn't. Lsfreak (talk) 10:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

B. Does this makes sense:

"Believe me, it outraged me more if I did not keep my word"

Is the use of the word "outrage" correct here?

No. It could be "... it would outrage me more if I did not keep my word", or "... it outraged me more that I did not keep my word". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. It makes sense, but just not the sense that was likely meant. It states that if the person did not keep his word, then something outraged him more. That makes fine sense, but just would not generally be said because the condition is more than likely uninteresting because the status of the antecedent and consequent would more than likely be known by the speaker, and so whether or not he was outraged, or whether or not he kept his word, could be asserted forthrightly rather than merely given hypothetically. Imagine a similar statement in a simple argument: "If person X did not keep his word, then event A outraged person X more. Person X did not keep his word. Therefore, event A outraged person X more." Makes sense to me. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 03:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

C. Would a native english speaker say something like this:

"Didn’t give I enough smile?"

No. It would be more like "Didn't I smile enough?". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

For the record, the correct form would be "Didn't I give enough smiles?", but I'd completely agree with JackofOz on "Didn't I smile enough?" Lsfreak (talk) 10:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

This question is a about an ended realtionship where one of the participants is trying to find our where he erred. How would a native english speaker phrase this question? That's all.

"What did I do wrong?" would be the most natural way of saying it, but there are plenty of alternatives. "There was something true, and noble, and beautiful between us - what happened?" "You spent it." Tevildo (talk) 19:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

193.224.66.230 (talk) 08:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing a quote

I'd like to find a proper source (or, failing that, a proper debunking) of a quote I've seen a few times out on the web: "Every man has his secret sorrows which the world knows not; and often times we call a man cold when he is only sad." It's attributed to Henry Wadsworth Longfellow here and here and elsewhere. I also think I've seen a longer version, though it still ended at "only sad" (or maybe it had been changed to "merely sad". Wikiquote doesn't seem to have anything and I wasn't able to dig anything up through Wikisource, though that's a bit trickier. Any help? Matt Deres (talk) 19:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It's spoken by a character (the protagonist Flemming) in Hyperion.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! Thank you! How were you able to find it? I tried Googling, but never seemed to hit anything. Matt Deres (talk) 22:50, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I reasoned that the quote probably comes from a book of his which is popular and is therefore on Gutenberg, so I could go there and do a quick full-text search of everything I found. Then I got lazy and just went to Wikiquote and followed the first link and found it. By the way, this guy Longfellow is a giant target for parody. The couplet I shot an arrow into the air, It fell to earth, I knew not where begs to be completed with the hilarious consequences of this ill-thought-out action. The Village Blacksmith describes his physical appearance in great detail, and is ripe for variation. I'm fairly sure I once heard a complete version of The Song of Hiawatha with a single entendre in every line, and then there's She stood on the bridge at midnight. Her lips were all a-quiver. She gave a cough, her leg fell off, And floated down the river.  Card Zero  (talk) 02:35, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

June 23

Shake versus nod

I've come to a conclusion about the words "shake" and "nod" in relation to one's head when reading those verb phrases in books. The conclusion is that if a character shakes their head, they're saying no and if they nod their head, it's a yes. Is this just my confirmation bias or is this pretty much standard? Looking at shake at dictionary.com seems to muddle the issue since it says that shake can be used for either:

a. to indicate disapproval, disagreement, negation, or uncertainty by turning one's head from one side to the other and back: I asked him if he knew the answer, but he just shook his head.

b. to indicate approval, agreement, affirmation or acceptance by nodding one's head up and down.

The part that seems confusing is that it uses the word "nod" in the definition for the approval portion. I'm not sure what references would be out there but I just wanted to maybe sort this out. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 00:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

In the circles where I have moved for the 60+ years of my life I have never heard the word shake used in the way described in Part b: of that definition. HiLo48 (talk) 00:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

See Nod (gesture), Head shake and Head bobble. I think dictionary.com is just plain confused. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I suppose any movement of the head could be considered a "shake", but we usually reserve it for the No gesture. People from South Asia certainly reverse the meanings - they do what we call "shake" when they mean Yes, and do what we call "nod" when they mean No. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Um, no (shakes his head). The South Asian 'yes' gesture is the 'head bobble' linked above. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:54, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Check. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I've often heard that Hungarians do it backward. Or am I thinking of some other Balkan nation? —Tamfang (talk) 19:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, "shaking your head yes" is something I don't find out of place. The movement would still be an up-and-down nod, but the saying works fine. Without "yes" tagged to the end, though, it would assumed to be a left-and-right "no." Lsfreak (talk) 03:36, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

"Londonese"

Finns use "the Londonese language" as a fancy way of referring to the English language. But is there really any distinction between the variety of English used in London versus the English language used in the United Kingdom in general? JIP | Talk 17:32, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

There are lots of varieties of English used within the UK, some of them almost mutually unintelligible at the extreme - here's some links to the ones Wikipedia has articles on. The varieties spoken in London include Received Pronunciation, which is considered "standard" English, as well as lower-prestige varieties like Cockney and Estuary English, which use glottal stops for medial and final t's, drop initial h's, and pronounce final l's like w's, among other distinctive features. --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:54, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

You forgot about Rhyming slang. That having been said, it is unlikely that any of these differences will be noticed or considered significant to many Finnish speakers of English. "Londonese" sounds like a humourous term for English in general, for RP, or for British English in general versus American English, rather than like a term referring to London accents and varieties specifically. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

The traditional London accent and dialect are sadly disappearing under the tide of Multicultural London English which is spoken by younger Londoners of all and any ethnicities, including those whose parents speak the finest Cockney. Alansplodge (talk) 21:01, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, MLE is certainly what I would think of on hearing the term "Londonese". In spite of the fact that I don't believe I've ever personally heard it in London (my last visit was in 1987). But, you know, there's Law & Order: UK, and sometimes it's the best thing showing in the gym. --Trovatore (talk) 21:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Some dictionaries define it as "cockney speech".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:07, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Quantitied

So I used this word on the Computing desk only to discover (via MSW Word Processor) that it isn't a word at all! I used it in the sentence "large-quantitied [ USB ] hubs..."; I changed it to "large-quantity" - so is that correct? Thanks! --Yellow1996 (talk) 18:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, "quantitied" appears in the OED, with a citation from 1606; but it is labelled Obs[elete] rare. So I would say it is a word, but you might choose to regard the 'obselete' bit as significant and avoid it. In any case ignore MSW's strictures, which are sometimes contentious. As to whether "large-quantity hubs" is meaningful - well, for me I don't know what you mean by the quantity of a USB hub, though it might be clear in context (my immediate thought was storage size, but what have USB hubs to do with storage?) So I would advise paraphrasing to make it clearer. But if the meaning is clear, I wouldn't object to "large-quantitied" or to "large-quantity". Others may disagree. --ColinFine (talk) 19:21, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

It's very common in English to add -ed to a noun when that noun is modified by an adjective. An example is large-footed, which gets over 8000 hits on Google Books, but my MS Word spellchecker doesn't like footed, either, because all the spellchecker knows is "foot is a noun and nouns don't get the past participle ending -ed". That said, the phrase large-quantitied only gets 10 results on Google Books—and most of those are typos or scannoes of large quantities—so it is at best very rare. I agree with ColinFine that it isn't clear what you mean by "large-quantitied/large-quantity USB hubs" in the first place. USB hubs having large quantities? Large quantities of what? If you mean USB hubs housing lots of ports, I'd probably go for "multiple-port USB hubs". Angr (talk) 20:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's the context. Luckily, I like to use archaic language from time to time; I'll just add "quantitied" to my list. Thanks, guys! :) --Yellow1996 (talk) 00:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

"large-quantitied" → "numerous", if you want your readers to like you. Looie496 (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Not in that context. He wrote, "The large-quantitied hubs are generally geared towards companies, making the prices quite high", referring to hubs with a large number of ports. "The numerous hubs..." would mean something totally different. Angr (talk) 15:15, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

"USB hubs with many ports are generally geared towards companies, making the prices quite high" is unambiguous as well as grammatically and idiomatically correct. You still need to provide a numerical definition of "many ports" such as "more than four" somewhere in the text. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

"Many-ported"? --ColinFine (talk) 13:33, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

June 24

Tidyman's carpet

What is a "tidyman's carpet"? I heard it used in an episode of A Bit of Fry and Laurie but haven't been able to find a meaning for it. All references on the web seem to direct back to the episode without explaining what a tidyman is. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 01:14, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

There's the International Tidy Man populating "Keep Britain Tidy" campaigns since the 70s, see for example this one from 1975. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so why does the litter figure need a carpet? Dismas|^(talk) 03:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

If you mean this, Tidyman's is being used as a brand. It's a carpet made by the Tidymans company. Rojomoke (talk) 04:10, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

…a fictional company, in case anyone needs that spelt out. —Tamfang (talk) 19:30, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Prinsengracht

The page Canals of Amsterdam presently glosses this place name as meaning "the prince's canal" and specifically named for the Prince of Orange - as a piped link to William the Silent. A Dutch colleague tells me that "Prinsen..." is plural. I don't know enough Dutch to recognize the possessive form for either a singular or plural noun. The Prinsengracht page in the Dutch Wikipedia seems to state that the name is for the Prince(s) of Orange as a dynastic title. Possibly there's a workaround here, that it's for any (or the current) Prince of Orange. However, I need to know: is "Prinsen" in the canal name singular or plural? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I suspect Dutch is like German in that noun + noun compounds often take a "joint" which may look like a plural ending but doesn't have a plural meaning. In Berlin we have a Prinzenstraße and Prinzessenstraße, each named after an individual person, even though Prinzen and Prinzessen by themselves are plural. The German Wikipedia article is at de:Fugenlaut; another example there is Gänsebraten ("roast goose"), where Gänse is the plural "geese" even though an individual roast goose is just one goose. Angr (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Prinzessenstraße is an interesting case. There is indeed one in Karlsruhe-Durlach. It contains the genitive of Prinzess, an obsolete form of Prinzessin. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 18:12, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

In fact, I was mistaken above: the street in Berlin is Prinzessinnenstraße. Angr (talk) 19:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Angr is basically right. Technically, 'Prinsengracht' could be understood as referring to multiple princes, while 'Prinsegracht' is definitely about a single prince. However, the 'n' that distinguishes the two is not pronounced, and in older Dutch it could also indicate a genitive instead of a plural. Many similar words exists in Dutch, and native speakers themselves are frequently confused about when to write an 'n' between two words. The rules are very complicated and do not just depend on singulars and plurals. Also, there have been several official spelling reforms in the last few decades that changed the rules. Without going into much detail: 'prinsen' is indeed the plural of 'prins', but the word 'Prinsengracht' is ambiguous as to whether it refers to several princes or just one. Historically, as you noted, it was named for the Prince of Orange. - Lindert (talk) 14:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

In English too (fairly closely related to Dutch) the only difference between the nominative plural and the singular posessive is an apostrophe; princes versus prince's, and to make a plural posessive just shift the apostrophe; princes'. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

(OP): Aha, but each of these is distinctive, having a unique significance. It's the ambiguity of a shared form that I (the hapless though not feckless, EN>HE translator) need to puzzle out. Still thinking this over. Thanks, all, for your input! -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

English

Are there many people who understand English in non-English-speaking country ? 雞雞 (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It depends which country. But often, yes. Horatio Snickers (talk) 18:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is a map which might prove helpful. Matt Deres (talk) 18:58, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It also depends on what you mean by "many" and what you mean by "understand". Lots of people in most countries around the world understand the word "hello" and can say "My name is X." Fewer people can carry on a conversation in English. According to Matt Deres's map, every child in China is taught English. However, when I traveled to China last year, very few people there could speak or understand English. I think that the quality of English teaching there is generally not very good. That said, because there are 1.3 billion people in China, even if only 1% of the Chinese population can speak and understand English well enough to communicate easily with a native speaker, then 13 million Chinese people can understand English without qualification. You could say that there are many Chinese who understand English (even if 99% do not). Marco polo (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

School English in China, like pretty much every other school subject in China, is a rote learning exercise. You memorise long lists of words and conjugation tables and standard conversations, which you then regurgitate wholesale in an exam. The standard of instruction is also not high - decades of isolationist policies brought up a whole generation of teachers whose English were learnt second or third hand from an English speaker in the 1940s. Even national level exam questions contain grammatical errors or non-idiomatic usage. That said, people who have finished high school / gone to university would be able to understand your basic questions in English if both of you have the patience, and you speak formally and carefully, or perhaps write it down. And the quality of instruction is improving. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:16, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

June 25

Latin vs. Japanese

This enquiry might be too subjective to warrant a space here, but being optimistic, are Latin and Japanese similar? Do they share a lot of grammatic features (that English doesn't possess)? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 01:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

They certainly don't share any Genetic relationship. Latin and Japanese are likely about as distinct as languages can get from a linguistic genetic relationship. --Jayron32 04:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That's misleading, Jayron. A majority of English speaking linguists advise you can't track linguistic relations back that early, (No more than about 6,000 y.b.p.) in which case there are no grounds for saying how close or far the languages might be related over that horizon which we can't breach. They don't claim there is no genetic relationship, just that it is not provable, and the distance unquantifiable

But of those who do think deeper relationships can be found, there is a good consensus supporting a connection between the Eurasiatic languages, with Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Uralic and Proto-Altaic, (with their m-/t- "me thee" pronouns and so forth) as some of its branches. It is controversial many levels, but most of those people accept that Japanese is a member of Altaic. That would mean that Latin and the other PIE languages (like ours) are about equidistant to Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, Mongol, Japanese and others.

Better examples of more distant relations would be Basque and Chinese (which some hold are related to the recently proven Dene-Yeniseian family), or the languages of Africa, SE Asia, Oceania, and the Americas which are all excluded from Eurasiatic. So, among the skeptics we have the belief that no measurement can be made, but among those who do believe a measurement can be made, most believe the Latin and Japanese are much closer to each other than either is to Basque, Georgian, Arabic, Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Navajo, Quechua, etc. (To forestall nitpiciking, the Eurasiatic family view is criticized vehemently (as is the venerable Altaic) by the majority skeptic view in the US. But only on the basis of skepticism, not in favor of an alternate theory of relationships. There are also those who link Japanese to the Austronesian languages, rather than the Altaic.) μηδείς (talk) 18:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's only misleading in the sense that I can say that "I'm pretty sure that you and I aren't cousins" is misleading. Every human is the Xth cousin Y times removed to every other human on the planet, for sufficiently large values of X and Y, and that is unequivocally true. Likewise, it is beyond likely that every single language can be reduced to a language spoken before modern Homo Sapiens left Africa. The more interesting question is whether linguists can make a documented connection between Japanese and Latin, just as the more interesting question is to whether one can make documented family tree that reliably links the familial relationship between two people, not just speak in vague platitudes which, while unequivocally true, don't add anything to the discussion at hand. --Jayron32 20:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I think Medeis was just saying that there are other language pairs that are uncontroversially more distant than Japanese and Latin. rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The most blatant difference between Latin and English, from a grammatical standpoint, is that Latin is a highly inflected language, whereas English is whatever the opposite of that is, meaning that grammar is indicated more by word order and by grammatical particles than by inflection. Where you would put Japanese on that scale I'm not quite sure -- for example, one of the few Japanese words I know is watakshi, the first-person singular pronoun, and if you want to use it as the subject of a sentence you say watakshi-wa. But is wa a particle, or an inflection? --Trovatore (talk) 04:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

They share case marking and somewhat flexible word order (Japanese tends to be subject-object-verb, but in some grammatical contexts and some pragmatic contexts that order can be changed--it's called scrambling--; I believe Latin is also pretty flexible). Of course, countless other languages also have these same features. (For what is worth, this should probably be considered one similarity rather than two--case marking and free word order tend to covary, such that languages with case marking are more likely to have freer word order, whereas languages like English with little case marking are likely to have fairly fixed word order.) Some of the cases that are marked in these languages are similar (e.g., both languages mark accusative case and genitive case), whereas some are different (Japanese distinguishes between a nominative marker and a topic marker, which I think Latin does not do grammatically; Latin has a vocative case and I am not sure if Japanese does).

And of course they differ in many other respects. Latin verbs agree with their subjects (are conjugated for) in person and number, and Japanese verbs don't (I think?). Latin adjectives agree with nouns in gender, number, and case, whereas I think Japanese only agree in case. Japanese has a more complicated system of honorifics. If you look deeper (at particular structures, particular tenses or aspects, etc.), I am sure you will find very many more differences. rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

In fact, from what little I know of both, you've basically hit the two major similarities. They both case-mark their nouns and they both have SOV as their basic word order. Even those are extremely superficial similarities; SOV is the most common word order, and case-marking is common over the entire Eurasian continent (and even then, their case marking has some noticeable differences, and Latin's word order is often more similar to English, for example preposition-noun, noun-relative clause). They also both have more complicated tense-aspect marking on the verb, but once again this is similar in a very superficial way. Basically what I'm saying is that you could say that, very broadly speaking, they share grammatical features... but at that level of "broadly speaking" you could say the same about nearly every pair of languages you picked, so you haven't said much of anything useful. Lsfreak (talk) 06:01, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thesre's really not much in common between the Japanese particles (or postpositions) and Latin case endings. The Japanese particles are invariable, while the Laten endings depend on the morphological class of the noun. And while '(w)o' pretty much corresponds to an accusative particle, and 'no' a genitive, the others all have meanings which don't map to anything in Latin (or other IE languages). 'ni' is a sort of locative, but is not for the place where some activity takes place, which is 'de'. And 'wa' is a topic marker, not a subject marker. --ColinFine (talk)

Family name "Frautschi" = ?

Hello Learned Ones ! Do you know the origin of the family name "Frautschi" ? I think it comes from germanophone Switzerland (where it shouldn mean "little lady", I think... ), but on WP de I find only 3 russian names...In WP en, I find a female hochey player from Interlaken , along with an american scientist & a violonist...Thanks a lot beforehand. T.y Arapaima (talk) 08:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It sure sounds Swiss, and there are several Frautschis in Switzerland, and some of them even have websites: Psychologist Christian, conceptual artist Chri and composer Franz. German speakers should tell you the etimology. No such user (talk) 09:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't find any reference on the meaning of Frautschi online (finding good German onomastic information online has stumped me before). My electronic Swiss telephone book gives 155 entries for Frautschi, most of them are located in and around Gstaad or Saanen in the Bernese Oberland.

The suffix -tschi is quite common in Alemannic surnames (Gautschi, Bertschi, Fritschi) and can also be a diminutive in Bernese dialect: "Meitschi" ("Mädchen" in Standard German) means girl (little maid), "Müntschi" means "kiss" (probably from "Muu" for "mouth", though "Muntsch" for a big kiss exists too, possibly as a back-formation).

In other words, while your assumption of "little lady" doesn't sound implausible at first glance, I couldn't find anything corroborating it. Names are often tricky, and it is easily possible that the etymology of "Frautschi" has absolutely nothing to do with "little woman". ---Sluzzelin talk 14:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Traditional children's rhymes and songs

I was chatting with my young nieces and nephews (ages 9 to 13) over the weekend when the topic of traditional "playground" rhymes and songs came up. They knew "Ring-a-ring a rosy" and "Eenie meenie mynie mo" but not "Two little dicky birds" (excuse my spelling). Are some of these of rhymes and songs going extinct? Has anyone published serious literature on these types of songs? (Demographic info: I'm male, 45years old, white, English-speaking, South African). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodger67 (talk • contribs) 08:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The classic work on this subject is this one, but it's rather old now (first published in 1959). As to whether these songs are dying out, the only song my 9-year-old son and his friends seem to sing in the playground is "Gangnam Style". Make of that what you will. Viennese Waltz 08:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Small world. My 7yr old niece also knows those but not Oranges_And_Lemons. (Demographic info: I'm male, 45years old, white, English-speaking, South African).196.214.78.114 (talk) 10:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I recall that there has been some serious research on nursery rhymes but I'm having trouble finding it at the moment. However, the Opie Book of Nursery Rhymes attempts to collect both the rhymes that are more familiar and their regional variants, and may repay some further reading on this. Iona and Peter Opie seem to have produced a fair amount of work on nursery rhymes. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd guess the version of Eeny, meeny, miny, moe that these children know isn't the same as the version I knew over 50 years ago, when we used it in the school playground as a choosing rhyme. Two Little Dickie Birds is perhaps more used between parent and very young child - I remember singing it with my own children - rather than being picked up from peers as part of playground culture. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I remember "Two Little Dickie Birds" being used by girls as a Skipping-rope rhyme. BTW That article has a useful template at the bottom. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Oops, sorry forgot to provide the obvious link: Nursery rhyme.

The word "mother"

Why is the root of "mother" an "m" followed by a vowel in so many languages - even totally unrelated ones such as Latin and Zulu? Is it because such a sound is one of the first that a baby is physically/neurologically capable of intentionally producing? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That would be what's known as a false cognate, and your suggested explanation isn't too far off from what some linguists have hypothesised. See Mama and papa. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 10:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! WP:WHAAOE. So my hunch seems to be confirmed, by at least some linguists. "Somewhere in a cave in the Geat Rift valley a gazillion moons ago, a homonid baby saw its mother and responded by smiling and making a repetitive "ma ma ma" sound - that sound became the word for mother." Offers for movie rights welcome! :) Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Or, "many times in homes all over the world, hominid babies saw their mothers and responded with "ma ma ma". --ColinFine (talk) 13:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

There's a humorous take on this at http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1581. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That cartoon really nails it down perfectly! Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

ははは「はは」と笑っている！KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Google translate :( say that is: 'My mother is laughing as "mother"!'I don't get it!?!? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• There seem to be two things going on. It is plain that mater/pater, mother/father go back with regular sound correspondences to an Indo-European root just like other regular words. But it is interesting that both these words start with ma- and pa- like baby talk words in other languages. Apparently these words were "formalized" from baby talk with the addition of the -ter suffix at some point in Pre-Proto-Indo-European and now act as words of the regular lexicon.

Even then, modern IE languages still have apparently new baby talk creations like mom and pop, as well as nana and dada and forms in other languages that are similar, but don't show regular sound correspondences. And meanwhile, forms like at(y)a and an(y)a seem to show an old presence from Latin atta/anus to Hungarian atya/anya to Japanese otoo for father. This might be evidence of an older case like mater/pater where baby talk roots were formalized and passed on with sound correspondences in an earlier language family. μηδείς (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

misplaced modifiers

I need to know which usage is correct: "The forbidden substances, which increase the mass of Hb include..." or "The substances forbidden to increase the mass of Hb include..."121.247.79.53 (talk) 10:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The first is definitely wrong. If you precede "which" by a comma, that means you're treating what comes next as a parenthetical clause, and parenthetical clauses must both start and end with commas. That is, Hb should be followed by a comma. On the other hand, if it was not your intention to have a parenthetical clause - and comparison with the 2nd sentence suggests it was not - then the comma should be removed. It's the difference between restrictive clauses and non-restrictive clauses. As it stands, the 2nd sentence is grammatical. As it stands, the 1st is both ungrammatical and ambiguous. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your notes on clauses, but my question was about the modifier 'forbidden', should it come before 'substances' or before 'to increase'?121.247.79.53 (talk) 11:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That would depend on the context, please point us to the full text. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:28, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

As a simple adjective, it comes before, like almost all adjectives in English: "the forbidden substances". If it is the introductory word to a longer modifier, it usually comes after: "the substances forbidden to minors", "the substances forbidden in the home", "the substances forbidden by law". The latter examples can all be restrictive (without parenthetical commas) or non-restrictive (set off by commas).

However, in your example

• "the forbidden substances, which increase the mass of Hb, include" restricts the discourse to those substances which are forbidden, and comments that they increase the mass.
• "the forbidden substances which increase the mass of Hb include" restricts the discourse to those substances which both are forbidden, and which increase the mass. There is no necessary connection between increasing the mass and being forbidden, though I think there is an implication that they are connected.
• "the substances forbidden to increase the mass of Hb include" is grammatical, but has quite a different meaning, which I do not think you intend. It picks out, from all possible substances, including those that increase the mass, just those substances which are forbidden to increase the mass.

This is unlikely partly because "forbidding" is normally something you do only to animate agents: you might forbid somebody to use a substance, but not normally forbid a substance to do something (though some people are happy with "forbidding a substance to be used")

• "the substances, forbidden to increase the mass of Hb, include" is even more unlikely: it designates all the substances you might be referring to, without limiting them, but comments that all these substances are forbidden to increase the mass. --ColinFine (talk) 14:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

121.247.79.53: as Roger Dodger pointed out, this would be easier if you would show us the whole sentence (or, better yet, several sentences of context). rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:33, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

How do we correct an error in a definition?

In the Oxford Dictionary, US English, the definition of a "thole pin" noun- "a pin, typically one of a pair, fitted to the gunwale of a rowboat to act as the fulcrum for an oar." This is incorrect in that it is not the fulcrum. TarbabyJohn (talk) 18:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

You'd have to contact the Oxford Dictionary people. This is Wikipedia. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Our article on rowlock states When a boat is rowed, the rowlock acts as a fulcrum, ... I fail to understand why this device, be it called thole pin or rowlock, does not act as a fulcrum. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is wrong. If the rowlock is the fulcrum then the water is the load and the purpose of rowing is to move water. Unlikely. The rowlock is the load and the fulcrum is in the water. 81.151.158.160 (talk) 21:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Just corrected the formatting. 64.201.173.145 (talk) 21:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC)