Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Abortion advocacy movement coverage
- Review and refine arguments surrounding premises, conclusion, and title choice
- Add or remove title options
- Refine RFC procedure (such as consensus-finding methodology)
- Feedback from the community
- Closers will review feedback, arguments and comments
- Closing of RFC on or about 9 November
Preamble
The purpose of this RFC is make a decision regarding the fate of the articles currently titled Support for the legalization of abortion and Opposition to legal abortion, as a previous RFC attempted to. In order to avoid issues that plagued that process, this RFC constructs a specific question of an article move, considered as an encyclopedia maintenance issue, built on premises grounded in Wikipedia policy.
From October 1st to October 19th, editors should participate in collaboratively creating a structured overview of the major premises this RFC is based on, the conclusion or conclusions they lead to, and relevant title options, consisting primarily of policy-based arguments regarding each. This summary should focus on being clear, concise, and easy to navigate, presenting the best collaborative analysis of the situation that the participants can arrive at. Procedural elements such as closing methodology may also be revised during this time.
On October 20th, the community feedback phase begins, and a WP:NOTVOTE on the premises, conclusion or conclusions, and title options presented will take place. Please do not register support or opposition regarding summarized elements until that time.
On November 4th, the community feedback phase ends, and the intention is that one or more neutral administrators, as yet undetermined, will close the RFC and carry out any indicated actions. A non-admin closure would also be feasible in the event consensus does not support the Conclusion (administrative privileges are needed to implement the moves called for if the Conclusion is upheld). The mechanics discussed in User:Homunq/WP voting systems, using Continuous Majority Judgment with the 20% supermajority (60/40) option, are recommended to closers as a method of gauging sentiment, though the finding of consensus remains a matter of their judgment.
Please note that if articles moves are carried out, then per WP:TITLE, the new titles will define the scope of the articles moving forward. Current content which is not germane to the defined scope should be refactored appropriately.
Where to conduct working discussion and ask questions
Please carry out working discussion of this RFC, such as procedural questions, discussion regarding options and arguments to present in the summary-building phase, and so on, using the talk page.
Premises
Premise 1: Wikipedia should cover the United States pro-choice and pro-life movements as distinct topics with their own articles
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Premise 2: The articles currently titled Support for the legalization of abortion and Opposition to legal abortion were originally about the United States pro-choice and pro-life movements, with that scope later expanding to include abortion advocacy movements outside the US
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Conclusion
Conclusion: Support for the legalization of abortion and Opposition to legal abortion should be moved so as to clearly and unambiguously identify their topics as being the United States pro-choice and pro-life movements, respectively
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Title options
Title choice is only relevant if consensus is found in favor of the Conclusion. If the Conclusion is upheld, then we need to determine what titles to use to specify the scope of the articles being moved. Editors who oppose the Conclusion may still choose to indicate support or opposition for title options, since even if they oppose any action being taken as a result of this RFC, they may legitimately express a preference for which action is taken in the event one takes place. If the Conclusion is rejected, then no action will be taken on the basis of this RFC.
As the mandate of the Conclusion is that the scope of the articles concerned be set clearly and unambiguously, title options should be added to this section only if they clearly and unambiguously identify the scope of the articles as the United States pro-choice and pro-life movements. Title options must also align with the established community consensus that a situation should not arise where one of these movements is identified using its self-chosen name and the other movement is denied such self-identification.
Please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Abortion article titles and this RFC's talk page for sourcing statistics. For reasons such as the impossibility of determining, in a large-scale analysis, when sources are talking about the US movements when they use various terms, a strictly statistical argument cannot be relied upon, so sourcing statistics are used only as a general guide here.
Title option 1: Pro-choice movement and Pro-life movement
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Title option 2: United States pro-choice movement and United States pro-life movement
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Title option 3: Pro-choice movement and Right-to-life movement
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Title option 4: United States pro-choice movement and United States right-to-life movement
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Title option 5: United States abortion-rights movement and United States anti-abortion movement
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Title option 6: United States abortion-rights movement and United States right-to-life movement
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Title option 7: United States abortion-rights movement and United States fetal-rights movement
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Community feedback
- Beginning October 20th 2012, members of the community are invited to WP:NOTVOTE on the elements of this RFC, giving reasons as to why they support their choices. Comments will be weighed based on strength of argument. Please DO NOT register opinions and arguments here until October 20th. Thank you!
- When feedback is open, please register basic opinions in the form of, for example:
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Support Conclusion, Strong Support Title Option 1, Support Title Options 2, 3, 4, 7, Oppose Title Options 5, 6
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Support Conclusion, Strong Oppose Title Options 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, Support Title Option 5
- Endorse Premise 1, Reject Premise 2, Oppose Conclusion
- Reject Premises 1, 2, Strong Oppose Conclusion, Support Title Options 1, 2, 3, 4, Oppose Title Options 5, 6, 7
- followed by arguments, for ease of review by closers.
- Please use this section for responsive participation in the RFC, not meta discussion of the RFC itself, which should take place on the talk page. If you oppose the very idea of this RFC and wish to see no action taken upon it, your best course is to indicate opposition to the Conclusion, preferably with some rationale given as to on what basis you disagree with either or both Premises, so that your position presents strength of argument. Meta discussion of the RFC may be refactored to the talk page.
- Support the conclusion that the article histories that exist now should be returned to US scope, with Title option 1. Propose creation of "Support for legal abortion" and "Opposition to legal abortion" as new articles with blank history, to merge the international information into using edit summary attribution to the old article histories. New articles should have very small sections on the US movement that basically consist of links to the Title option 1 articles. Gigs (talk) 20:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Strong Support Conclusion, Strong Support Title Option 2 -
I would follow the proposal of the user above me.I think this will go a long way to reduce conflation of American and international view-points on topics on Wikipedia. This problem has decreasing lately, and this will help put a final nail in that coffin. The whole abortion controversy in the United States is very odd in an international context, and perhaps is an example of American exceptionism. Let's make it clear for readers that this is primarily an American issue, and put information on similar (but different) controversies in other countries at a different location. RGloucester (talk) 01:17, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Addendum: I've changed my mind. One “abortion debate" article is better than two separate articles. RGloucester (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support Premises 1 and 2 and Title 1. Weak support for Conclusion and Title 2. Quick search for sociology books on the theme suggest a strong preference for pro-life/pro-choice naming over the other variants. Let's stick with the scholarly naming. I am not sure if we need to state those movements are US only, as I am not sure if the name is used outside US, however. The issues themselves are certainly international, and while it certainly stands to reason that the US movements are notable to stand on their own, the question is - are the articles geared to be about US movements only, or international? The answer to this should determine the inclusion (or lack of it) of the "United States" in the name. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Strong Support Conclusion, Strong Support Title Option 2, Support Title Options 1, 5, Oppose Title Options 3, 4, 6, Strong Oppose Title Option 7. If the objective is to identify these movements, the best titles are those that use the best-sourced terminology, with the regional disambiguators to help make it abundantly clear that we are identifying specific movements, not generalized sentiments. The right-to-life variations would have strong sourcing support if they actually identified the movements, but it's not clear to me that the right-to-life and pro-life movements actually are the same thing, and enough people seem to believe otherwise that using that terminology as primary would be inevitably highly controversial. Incidentally strong oppose Gigs's proposal of creating new generic articles, as this sets up a situation of dueling WP:POVFORKs that is destructive to WP:NPOV; general perspective on the issues should be covered in Abortion debate and relatives, and the only sensible thing to do with articles actually scoped as Gigs proposes would be to merge them to Abortion debate. I contrariwise consider that the material currently present in the articles in question covering non-US abortion-related advocacy movements should be refactored to Abortion-rights movements and Anti-abortion movements as overview articles. —chaos5023 (talk) 11:54, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see how moving the non-US movements to those titles is much different than my proposal. Gigs (talk) 18:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Seems very different to me. One identifies general advocacy sentiment on a political issue as its topics, making it a pair of POVFORKs of the general political issue, while the other makes sets of identifiable, related political movements its topics. One creates a situation that promotes each article becoming a polemic for its side of the issue, the other doesn't. (Articles titled Support for legal abortion and Opposition to legal abortion should cover the reasons for such advocacy, Abortion-rights movements and Anti-abortion movements, as list articles, shouldn't.) —chaos5023 (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I missed that you wanted them to be list articles. Your way seems fine to me. It's just that we need to do something with the international movement material, not just throw it away. Gigs (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Definitely, couldn't agree more. —chaos5023 (talk) 19:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I missed that you wanted them to be list articles. Your way seems fine to me. It's just that we need to do something with the international movement material, not just throw it away. Gigs (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Seems very different to me. One identifies general advocacy sentiment on a political issue as its topics, making it a pair of POVFORKs of the general political issue, while the other makes sets of identifiable, related political movements its topics. One creates a situation that promotes each article becoming a polemic for its side of the issue, the other doesn't. (Articles titled Support for legal abortion and Opposition to legal abortion should cover the reasons for such advocacy, Abortion-rights movements and Anti-abortion movements, as list articles, shouldn't.) —chaos5023 (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see how moving the non-US movements to those titles is much different than my proposal. Gigs (talk) 18:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2,Support Conclusion, Oppose Titles 1,3. Support any of 2,4,5,6,7. Anything that depicts the abortion-related debates should be refactored out. I agree with Chaos5023 that we need to keep Abortion debate highlighted. Additionally, I strongly support an Abortion-related advocacy groups article or category. (20040302 (talk) 12:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)) addendum. I see that there are already categories in place that probably do the job. (20040302 (talk))
- Neutral on premise 1. Endorse premise 2 and conclusion. Strong oppose titles 1, 3; neutral titles 2, 4, 6, 7; strong support title 5. Yes, we have WP:POVTITLE which allows titles 2, 4, 6, or 7, but as an encyclopedia we should prefer the most NPOV titles in common use. That is 5. I understand that some people feel that "anti-" is POV, but this is really an unsustainable position; there are too many "anti-something" movements which embrace that terminology for that to be true. Oh, and of course there should be some global articles somewhere, probably with titles along the lines of 5, because of course globally movements' self-identified names vary. Agree with User:Chaos5023 about avoiding POVFORKs. Homunq (࿓) 14:31, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- To expand a bit on my "anti-something" point: as Chaos5023 says below, "Has anybody ever objected to the labels anti-war, anti-racist, anti-death-penalty, anti-nuclear?" I'd add "anti-government", "anti-tax", "anti-drug", and "anti-corruption" to balance out that list a bit. Homunq (࿓) 12:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- The main problem with 5 is not the use of "anti", but the use of "rights". See my response to Chaos5023 below. — Lawrence King (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wait. So you're saying "abortion-rights" is an unfairly positive POV... so the solution is to use titles like "pro-choice", "pro-life", or "right-to-life"???? Am I missing something here? Homunq (࿓) 15:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- As I said in my vote, my preference would be Title 6 (which uses the word "rights" for both sides, thus preserving the balance), or Title 2 (which is justified because "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are by far the most frequently used terms historically). I agree that if "pro-choice" and "pro-life" were terms invented in the very recent past, like "abortion-rights advocate", then I would oppose them as well. But they are long-established terms, and therefore it seems perfectly reasonable to use them, just as we use words such as "capitalist" and "communist" and "democracy" despite their origin, long ago, as POV terms. — Lawrence King (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wait. So you're saying "abortion-rights" is an unfairly positive POV... so the solution is to use titles like "pro-choice", "pro-life", or "right-to-life"???? Am I missing something here? Homunq (࿓) 15:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- The main problem with 5 is not the use of "anti", but the use of "rights". See my response to Chaos5023 below. — Lawrence King (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- To expand a bit on my "anti-something" point: as Chaos5023 says below, "Has anybody ever objected to the labels anti-war, anti-racist, anti-death-penalty, anti-nuclear?" I'd add "anti-government", "anti-tax", "anti-drug", and "anti-corruption" to balance out that list a bit. Homunq (࿓) 12:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support premises and conclusion. Strong support titles 1 and 2; oppose titles 3, 4, 6, and 7; strong oppose title 5. As there is no viable title that is NPOV, POVTITLE applies. Titles 1 and 2 are the most balanced, in that each subject gets to choose its own name. They are also the most widely known names, best satisfying COMMONNAME. Titles 3, 4, 6, and 7 put undue focus on the fetus; for many, the culture of life is about the spiritual health of the parents and the broader culture, as much as it is narrowly about the "rights" of the fetus. Titles 3, 4, 6, and 7 are also less commonly used, probably for the reason I just described. Title 5 is particularly POV in that only one side is described as "anti-" and only one side is described as being for "rights". --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- None of the above. The topic has always been Abortion debate, arguably Abortion debate (United States) or Abortion debate within the United States. There should only be one article discussing both sides of the debate, not two articles, one for each position. Binksternet (talk) 19:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- So what is your argument against Premise 1? And when can we expect your proposal that The Coca-Cola Company and PepsiCo be merged into Cola Wars? —chaos5023 (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think we all agree that the debate should be covered in a single article that "discusses both sides of the debate". The suggestion here is that the movements be separately covered in their own pages. For example, the suggested page on the pro-choice movement would give details about the relevant organizations, their activities, and their history, but would have only a few sentences on the philosophical justification for their position along with a {{main}} tag for abortion debate. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 19:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- If the "movement" articles stayed away from pro/con arguments I would support that. Binksternet (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, well, good. That's actually what's being proposed here. See the bits about unambiguous identification of topic and "Current content which is not germane to the defined scope should be refactored appropriately". —chaos5023 (talk) 19:35, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- If the "movement" articles stayed away from pro/con arguments I would support that. Binksternet (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premise 1, endorse Premise 2 if I understand it, support Conclusion, strongly support Title Option 5 as the only neutral and unambiguous option. If I may wiggle within the straitjacket of this RfC format, I see this as a matter first of scope and second of appropriate naming. It's reasonable to have two separate articles dealing (under whichever names might be chosen) with these two movements as they pertain to the United States. I therefore support the existence of two such articles, and prefer Title Option 5. Procedurally, I endorse Premise 2 because a global article would still exist separately on the legality of abortion—a global article that examines (sorta) the legal history and current status of abortion (as distinct from history of abortion covering medical procedure, philosophical and religious views, etc). On the issue of scope, I endorse having two separate articles on the so-called pro-life/pro-choice movements in the U.S. if these articles focus on the movements as such (their organization, history, stated aims, methods) and aren't just platforms for arguing the issue as such. If a similar division exists notably within other countries, religions, or whatever, that division can get its own pair of articles, or a single article, as seems appropriate. On the issue of naming, the article title should reflect that article scope is confined to the movement in the U.S. Therefore, I strongly oppose Options 1 and 3 as not defining scope. I oppose Options 2 and 4 as self-promotional euphemism and jargon (images of peacocks and weasels come to mind). I oppose Option 6, again because "right-to-life" is a vague euphemism that leaves the scope undefined (unless the article also deals equally with opposition to capital punishment and euthanasia and so on). I weakly oppose Option 7 because "fetal-rights" defines the scope improperly if the topic is opposition to abortion; if the article is truly about "fetal rights"— whether homicide can be committed against a fetus, and whether a pregnant woman can be charged with abusing a child in utero, and legal issues beyond the scope of abortion—then that title would be OK. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- To clarify at least what I consider to make sense in re your feedback on title option 6, the idea is specifically not that we're trying to identify abortion-related advocacy as our topic through the use of these movement labels, it's that whatever labels we use, that movement is our topic. So the US political movement that identifies using the terminology "right-to-life" would be the topic in that event, and to whatever extent it involves itself in capital punishment and euthanasia, that would be germane to the article. (My reason for opposing option 6 is that I'm not sure that it actually identifies the pro-life movement, which is the requirement set by the Conclusion.) —chaos5023 (talk) 02:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I appreciate your clarification, but could you clarify further: do you see the Option 6 article title with the phrase "right to life" as not being confined to abortion, but all aspects of legal issues (not moral or philosophical, since the word "right" is used) pertaining to the relation of individual autonomy vs. the state and its laws and justice system? I oppose "right to life" as a euphemism for opposing abortion. Some groups that oppose abortion also oppose euthanasia or assisted suicide. The Catholic Church takes a coherent "right to life" position, because they oppose abortion, euthanasia, and capital punishment. So yes, such a thing as a "right to life" movement can probably be defined enough to establish the scope of an article, and my objection is to Option 6 is only if "right to life" is a euphemism for opposing abortion. If it's the more complex topic I outlined, then I don't know what else you'd call it. But in that case, you could justify having both an article on "right to life" issues, and an article on the anti-abortion movement as a spinoff, since the latter has sufficient material for an independent article and might overwhelm the first. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing it as anything, really. My only interest in it consists in that reliable sources very frequently use it to identify a political movement (that may or may not be the one we're trying to identify). From the standpoint of encyclopedia maintenance, specifically titling in this case, I literally do not care what that movement's activities are, only whether I can successfully identify it as a coherent and notable topic of coverage. It's just a label, and getting into philosophical debate as to what exactly all these propaganda terms do and/or should mean is a good way to get into a useless tailspin, and is probably best considered a derailment of the discussion. In my opinion, the only way to get through the noise in this area is to immediately stop regarding anything as a code-word for any form of abortion-related advocacy and LET TITLES MEAN WHAT THEY MEAN. That is, we actually use WP:TITLE, meaning the title IDENTIFIES THE TOPIC, the title is not a way to vaguely get at a different topic that exists in some limbo somewhere, and if we identify the US right-to-life movement as our topic, we ARE NOT identifying anti-abortion political advocacy as our topic, we are identifying THE US RIGHT-TO-LIFE MOVEMENT, whatever that consists of, as our topic. —chaos5023 (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, that was my point: what is the scope of the article? You don't need to shout. Scope has to be established before the best title can be chosen. There is an important exception to WP:UCN: Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. I think that is the case with "pro-choice" and "pro-life": no one can dispute that these are common ways to refer to these movements, and probably the most common, but they aren't the clearest and most natural ways to express these concepts in English unless you already know, or think you know, what they mean. "Abortion rights" and "anti-abortion" (or more broadly "fetal-rights" or "right-to-life", depending on the actual scope of the article) are specific, accurate, non-ambiguous, non-jargony, and neutral. However, "anti-abortion movement" is a different topic from "fetal-rights movement" and in turn a different topic from "right-to-life movement." These are three separate articles, each with its own scope, in ascending order of broadness. The opposite of "abortion-rights movement" is "anti-abortion movement." The existence of an article on the movement to criminalize abortion does not preclude the simultaneous existence of an article on fetal rights, as well as an article on the right to life. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Heh, sorry, I didn't really mean to be shouting at you. More everybody, really; it's a set of very general tendencies I was getting exercised about there. I tend to agree with you about the scope issues, which is a good reason we should pay attention to how precisely different title options identify our target scope. —chaos5023 (talk) 12:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, that was my point: what is the scope of the article? You don't need to shout. Scope has to be established before the best title can be chosen. There is an important exception to WP:UCN: Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. I think that is the case with "pro-choice" and "pro-life": no one can dispute that these are common ways to refer to these movements, and probably the most common, but they aren't the clearest and most natural ways to express these concepts in English unless you already know, or think you know, what they mean. "Abortion rights" and "anti-abortion" (or more broadly "fetal-rights" or "right-to-life", depending on the actual scope of the article) are specific, accurate, non-ambiguous, non-jargony, and neutral. However, "anti-abortion movement" is a different topic from "fetal-rights movement" and in turn a different topic from "right-to-life movement." These are three separate articles, each with its own scope, in ascending order of broadness. The opposite of "abortion-rights movement" is "anti-abortion movement." The existence of an article on the movement to criminalize abortion does not preclude the simultaneous existence of an article on fetal rights, as well as an article on the right to life. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing it as anything, really. My only interest in it consists in that reliable sources very frequently use it to identify a political movement (that may or may not be the one we're trying to identify). From the standpoint of encyclopedia maintenance, specifically titling in this case, I literally do not care what that movement's activities are, only whether I can successfully identify it as a coherent and notable topic of coverage. It's just a label, and getting into philosophical debate as to what exactly all these propaganda terms do and/or should mean is a good way to get into a useless tailspin, and is probably best considered a derailment of the discussion. In my opinion, the only way to get through the noise in this area is to immediately stop regarding anything as a code-word for any form of abortion-related advocacy and LET TITLES MEAN WHAT THEY MEAN. That is, we actually use WP:TITLE, meaning the title IDENTIFIES THE TOPIC, the title is not a way to vaguely get at a different topic that exists in some limbo somewhere, and if we identify the US right-to-life movement as our topic, we ARE NOT identifying anti-abortion political advocacy as our topic, we are identifying THE US RIGHT-TO-LIFE MOVEMENT, whatever that consists of, as our topic. —chaos5023 (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I appreciate your clarification, but could you clarify further: do you see the Option 6 article title with the phrase "right to life" as not being confined to abortion, but all aspects of legal issues (not moral or philosophical, since the word "right" is used) pertaining to the relation of individual autonomy vs. the state and its laws and justice system? I oppose "right to life" as a euphemism for opposing abortion. Some groups that oppose abortion also oppose euthanasia or assisted suicide. The Catholic Church takes a coherent "right to life" position, because they oppose abortion, euthanasia, and capital punishment. So yes, such a thing as a "right to life" movement can probably be defined enough to establish the scope of an article, and my objection is to Option 6 is only if "right to life" is a euphemism for opposing abortion. If it's the more complex topic I outlined, then I don't know what else you'd call it. But in that case, you could justify having both an article on "right to life" issues, and an article on the anti-abortion movement as a spinoff, since the latter has sufficient material for an independent article and might overwhelm the first. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'll endorse premise 1 and premise 2, and I'll oppose title option 1 and title option 3 on the basis that the title should be US-specific. If this was about any other country, "pro-life" would mean "opposed to the death penalty".—S Marshall T/C 20:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Strongly Support Conclusion, Strong Support Title Options 2 and 4, Would Support Title Options 1, 3, Oppose Title Options 6, 7, Strongly Oppose Title Option 5. Title Options 2 and 4 seem the best fit. I oppose title options 6 and 7 because they feel clumsy, but title option 5 is definitely wrong. To use "anti" in a title is a mental nudge in the opposite direction, and I would consider it biased. Go with 2. Respectfully, Light-jet pilot (talk) 21:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Support Conclusion, Strongly support Title 5, weakly support Title 1 due to arguments given. I was originally opposed to these articles being maintained as US-centric, but given the premises, they need to be titled appropriately. / Per Edman 21:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Support Conclusion, Strongly support Title 5, Oppose Titles 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7. because all titles other than 5 are attempts to put some kind of spin on it. Chris the speller yack 01:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with you regarding Conclusion, but I think that all these titles have large amounts of "spin". I certainly am affected by my own biases (which is why the current debate and search for consensus is a good thing!), but it seems to me that Title 5 has more spin than almost any other choice. If you were to poll Americans and ask them "Which sounds more appealing to you: 'I support the right of XX' or 'I am anti-XX'?" -- without telling them what XX is -- I think you would find that "rights" is a very popular word and "anti" is a scary word. Just my two cents. — Lawrence King (talk) 02:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just to randomly add 2 cents, I accept that this is commonly held, but I gotta say I'm kinda with Homunq on this one. People really don't seem to have any problem processing that if X is bad, being anti-X is good. Has anybody ever objected to the labels anti-war, anti-racist, anti-death-penalty, anti-nuclear? —chaos5023 (talk) 02:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- My 3 cents, In my humble opinion, the titles must needs be equal. If it is a "right to choose", then the other title must be a "right to life". If one is negative, the other must also be negative. If the titles are unbalanced or unequal, than the articles are taking sides. The entire point of Wikipedia is to be unbiased, and no one I know in real life would call it anything other than "Pro-life and Pro-choice" Respectfully, Light-jet pilot (talk) 14:02, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Chaos5023, I concede that the term "anti" is not always pejorative. But wouldn't you agree that the term "rights" is always positive? There are people who call themselves "anti-war", but nobody says "I oppose war rights" or "I oppose the right to own slaves" or "I oppose the power industry's right to build nuclear power plants." To phrase something in terms of "rights" is to virtually end debate. Thus, if I ask "do you support abortion rights or do you oppose abortion rights?" or "do you support the fetus' right to life or oppose the fetus' right to life?", I am asking a loaded question. (At least in the United States, where "rights" are central to all political arguments.) — Lawrence King (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, "rights" sounds nice and "anti-rights" sounds mean. But the formulation isn't "anti-abortion-rights", it's "anti-abortion". Don't get me wrong, I don't think title option 5 is very good, though for reasons other than this one. It just seems to me that the semiotic objection is pretty overblown. But going back and forth about that is, well, exactly the kind of derail I was myself speaking against earlier, so if we want to do so some more we should probably head over to the talk page. —chaos5023 (talk) 15:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Chaos5023, I concede that the term "anti" is not always pejorative. But wouldn't you agree that the term "rights" is always positive? There are people who call themselves "anti-war", but nobody says "I oppose war rights" or "I oppose the right to own slaves" or "I oppose the power industry's right to build nuclear power plants." To phrase something in terms of "rights" is to virtually end debate. Thus, if I ask "do you support abortion rights or do you oppose abortion rights?" or "do you support the fetus' right to life or oppose the fetus' right to life?", I am asking a loaded question. (At least in the United States, where "rights" are central to all political arguments.) — Lawrence King (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- My 3 cents, In my humble opinion, the titles must needs be equal. If it is a "right to choose", then the other title must be a "right to life". If one is negative, the other must also be negative. If the titles are unbalanced or unequal, than the articles are taking sides. The entire point of Wikipedia is to be unbiased, and no one I know in real life would call it anything other than "Pro-life and Pro-choice" Respectfully, Light-jet pilot (talk) 14:02, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just to randomly add 2 cents, I accept that this is commonly held, but I gotta say I'm kinda with Homunq on this one. People really don't seem to have any problem processing that if X is bad, being anti-X is good. Has anybody ever objected to the labels anti-war, anti-racist, anti-death-penalty, anti-nuclear? —chaos5023 (talk) 02:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with you regarding Conclusion, but I think that all these titles have large amounts of "spin". I certainly am affected by my own biases (which is why the current debate and search for consensus is a good thing!), but it seems to me that Title 5 has more spin than almost any other choice. If you were to poll Americans and ask them "Which sounds more appealing to you: 'I support the right of XX' or 'I am anti-XX'?" -- without telling them what XX is -- I think you would find that "rights" is a very popular word and "anti" is a scary word. Just my two cents. — Lawrence King (talk) 02:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2; strongly support Conclusion. Strong support for Title 6 or Title 2; weaker support for Titles 4, 7. At one time I disagreed with premise 1, but now I think it clearly is best. The only significant thing that the U.S. pro-choice and U.S. pro-life movements have in common is that they both hold positions on the abortion issue. Their sociological makeups and institutional histories are so different that they should not be in the same article as each other. Regarding titles: Title 2 has the huge advantage that it reflects the most common names that each group uses for itself, while Title 6 has the huge advantage that it is completely descriptive. (The disadvantage of Title 2 is that "pro-choice" is a euphemism; nobody unfamiliar with the U.S. debate could guess, a priori, what a "pro-choicer" wants to choose; and while there are pro-life organizations that support a "broad understanding of life" (anti-death-penalty, anti-war) there are no pro-choice organizations that support "a broad understanding of choice" (the right to choose handguns, the right to school choice, etc.) I strongly believe that Wikipedia should not, in general, use euphemisms. However, in this case we are documenting a movement, not a position, and a movement that gives itself a euphemistic title can be documented under that title. So I am happy with Title 2, and also happy with Title 6. — Lawrence King (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse premises 1,2,neutral on conclusion, endorse title option 5, reject all other titles, "pro-life" without inclusion of euthanasia, capital punishment, stem cell research, etc. is a misnomer and is not the counterpoise of "pro-choice" which is not used in contexts of euthanasia and capital punishment, for example. Thus, title options 1,2,3,4, and 6 are all wrong. Between 5 & 7, not all fetal rights are at issue: I see no reliable sources telling us that the anti-abortion movement is an advocacy organization for gestational nutrition, inheritance rights, carpool lane access for pregnant women, or anything else wrapped up in what rights a fetus may or may not have in law, save not to be aborted. Hence, 5 is the most accurate statement of the two positions of the seven on offer. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- You're responding to the RFC as if it were saying "how do we identify abortion-related sentiment?" It isn't. If we identify the US pro-life movement as a topic, and reliable sources document the US pro-life movement's involvement in euthanasia, capital punishment, and stem cell research, then those would be areas of coverage germane to the article. —chaos5023 (talk) 20:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Right, this is yet another reason why "anti-abortion" is a poor choice. It's not uncommon for the U.S. media (who are committed to the term, for some reason) to be writing about someone who is broadly pro-life over a range of issues, but the only label they are allowed to use is "anti-abortion". It would be funny if it weren't so frustrating.
- I move that Carlossuarez46's comment on titles be judged non-responsive to the RFC question. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 20:30, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Re anti-abortion, yeah. That's raised in the arguments against option 5. As to the comment, enh, it's trying to be responsive, even if probably based on a misapprehension. I think we should save that judgment for things more like Kaldari's flailing his hands in the air. —chaos5023 (talk) 20:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose the move and disagree with Premise 2 as a reason - Yes, the aticles might have started with a US focus but as of today abortion is still the most widely accepted term globally. Agreed, that the greatest degree of attention on this topic is still in the US but that should not trivialize the attention given in other countries. While the US media might be blunt and direct about the issue, media from other countries might have to be indirect and cover up the debate. My point is that pro-choice and pro-life are more popular in the US. Abortion is still the globally accepted term. -Wikishagnik (talk) 05:42, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- How do you feel about premise 1? Homunq (࿓) 14:58, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- Endorse Premises 1, 2, Support Conclusion, Oppose all proposed titles. — The premises are sound, as is the conclusion (the natural extrapolation of the premises). However, I'm not satisfied with any of the seven (as of this post) currently proposed titles. I'd be more inclined to support "Support for legal abortion in the United States" and "Opposition to legal abortion in the United States." They are, in my judgement, POV-free and accomplish the task of clearly and unambiguously identifying support for and opposition to legal abortion in the United States. Tyrol5 [Talk] 18:16, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- Do they identify the topics the conclusion calls for identification of, though? "The US pro-life movement" is not the same topic as "opposition to (legal) abortion in the United States", in much the same way that "The Ku Klux Klan" is not the same topic as "White supremacist activity in the United States". —chaos5023 (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)