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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 69.86.225.27 (talk) at 05:23, 19 February 2012 (Undid revision 477661232 by 69.86.225.27 (talk)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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What Christianity and religion is about, the theory of life : http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=35988.0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.135.101.175 (talk) 13:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect statistics

There is a map of the world where every nation with a population of 50% or more christians is colored purple. According to it more than 50% of Swedens population are christians. I don't know where those numbers came from, but it is just plain wrong. Denmark and Finland shouldn't be colored purple either. Those errors make me question the rest of the map too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.209.81.254 (talk) 08:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Idem for Netherlands: much less then 50 percent are churchgoing, and less then 10 percent literally believe in trinity and resurrection. So depending on how strict you define 'Christians', Netherlands should either be pink or grey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pieter Felix Smit (talk • contribs) 06:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The whole concept of claiming such high levels of Christianity is nonsense. The figures come from diverse sources, with no accurate nor consistent definition of what a Christian is. My country, Australia, is coloured purple on that map. Weekly church attendance is around 7% of the population. I cannot comprehend how such inaccurate rubbish is permitted to remain in Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 06:45, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You should define a Christian based on what the Bible says, I do know that whether or not you go to church doesn't define a Christian. If you can find reliable mainstream sources that contradict evidence in the map, please notify editors so we can have consensus on the map.--174.49.24.190 (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These statistics are completely incorrect but Wikipedia has servers in United States so such exageration is natural.Christianity is in Europe,North and South America and Europe.In Russia most are atheists.In Europe Islam is gaining ground.Christian population must be near to 2 billion if statistics are correct.Countrey with highest Christian population is USA which alone conveys that Christians are very less than what the statistics claim.Raw555 (talk) 15:50, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Defining 'Christian', 'Muslim' etc. is a difficult task. Do you think all people with 'Muslim' written on their ID is actually a Muslim? Or that the son of (say) Turkish parents in Europe is a Muslim? I personally know several counterexamples if you believe so. More reliable statistics are required, or at least clearer definitions (e.g. Christian = person that goes to church at least 1 time per year, or people who defined themselves as such). For coherence, such clear distinction/definition should be applied homogeneously for every religion on the website.
If I can find time I will update the image according to the statistics listed in the CIA Factbook, which states that indeed Russia is worng but Australia is in fact still about 60% Christian, as of a 2006 census. Any objections to using those figures? We are unlikely to find anything more reliable. -- LWG talk 17:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Boring - no mention of popular culture or major works

This has to be one of the most dry encyclopedic articles I have ever browsed over.

There are no culture specific mentions of Christianity in popular culture, movies, plays, songs, games. There is only a tiny mention of Christian festivals, Christmas, Easter, with no details. There is no mention of the charitable works being undertaken by Christians worldwide - poverty, hunger, thirst, first aid.

Where are you? This is an advanced encyclopedia! An encyclopedia captures nothing if it does not reflect the lives of those whom it discusses. Gottservant (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An encyclopedia should answer the question "what is". That is our goal here. Telling people who charitable it is, or providing pop culture references doesn't really answer that question. Encyclopedias typically do not include these things.- Unsigned comment
Really? Then why does the Islam article have sections for architecture and art? Why does the Scientology article have sections for their social reform works and their celebrity support? Gottservant, I support the addition of details for Christian holidays as well as information about the myriad of charitable work Christians do for people world-wide as it is well-documented and very notable.--174.49.24.190 (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou, your knowledge of other articles has definitely bolstered the move to put pop culture references and references to major works in this article. I concur with your reasoning.58.161.50.116 (talk) 13:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"An encyclopedia should answer the question "what is"" when the subject is an "object". Christianity is not an object. Christianity is a "mystery" - an encyclopedia dealing with that should therefore answer the question "how is"58.161.50.116 (talk) 13:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For coherence with the Islam page there should in fact be a Culture section. By comparing the page structure of the two pages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) it appears to be the only difference. Depending on the ideal goal of Wikipedia, we should either add a Culture section to the Christianity page, or remove it from Islam. As space is given to criticism, a mention to the positive impact of charitable work and missions should also be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raggot (talk • contribs) 14:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fundamental tenet missing from first paragraph

If you know anything at all about Christianity, it is that its founder, Jesus Christ, instituted most famously of all that the body of believers that came to be known as "Christians" would be defined by their commandment to love one another.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. Joh 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

This is the Zenith of the Christian faith and you have not for even a moment mentioned this fundamental tenet in the first paragraph. It is not subject to wavering interpretation, it is universal to the Christian faith. It originated with the founder of the faith and was carried to the death by martyrs of all denominations.

I will be checking to see that this is addressed some time in the near future. I am not just picking out a random verse here. It SAYS "All will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another". It is the only time Jesus ever talks about the appearance of the believers to the world. Even if it is that you are only concerned with the appearance of Christianity in this article, mentioning this commandment is crucial to doing that with any kind of integrity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gottservant (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look, if no one is going to add the "New Commandment" to the first paragraph, I will just do it. I don't want complaints though - I have already spellled out more than enough reason to add it. 58.161.50.116 (talk) 13:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Criticisms of Christianity

Should there be a section on criticism of Christianity? That it attracts criticism is a notable feature of the topic. DHooke1973 (talk) 20:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where would you stop? There are a lot of other articles mentioning Christianity in negative ways, where it's validly part of the article. I don't think it's needed here. HiLo48 (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Where to stop? Well if there's too much for one page, that's not a reason not to put it in. I've added a link to Criticism of Christianity for now. DHooke1973 (talk) 23:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
People have been criticising Christianity for 2000 years. Definitely more than a page. HiLo48 (talk) 08:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Plus, Christians all over the world are trying to pull another "crusade" by voting down recognition of wiccan as a religion, making speech on how "wiccan is evil" and they are even attacking through Youtube! For all that is holy, they are bringing the blood stains to surface into their bible once again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.126.126.62 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No offence, but have you cleared this with Wikipedia policy? It will be the first encyclopedia I have ever heard of to venture into debate. Even from a purely neutral standpoint I can see that a shift towards debate will result in a loss of objectivity.58.161.50.116 (talk) 14:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal denominations

Which denominations of Christianity have no problem with pre-marital sex + gay marriage? Pass a Method talk 20:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know any denomination which "have no problem" with gay marriage and pre-martial sex, because those practices are generally forbidden in Christianity. Regards. ♫GoP♫TCN 16:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 14 January 2012

The opening paragraph should have an additional line that - following "Adherents of the Christian faith are known as Christians.[3]" - says "By definition, this means that - as far as the world is concerned - you accept the commandment to love all other members of the Christian faith [4]

[4]Joh 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." Joh 13:35 "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

This is a non-negotiable tenet of the Christian faith, as far as its definition - in whichever way being relative to the world - is concerned. No love for other members, no Christianity. It is therefore paramount that this be stated in the opening paragraph, by way of definition, as an article to be read by the world.

It is not an attempt to prosletyze. It is not subject to the interpretation of particular denominations. It is not an irrelevant subtext to the faith. It must be understood in the context of the faith, which is of the Jews, as being a commandment, like unto the ten commandments given to Moses on Mt Sinai (and therefore gravely serious).

I stress that you cannot define Christianity (for the world) without this commandment. Thanks in advance for your time, consideration and care.

Gottservant (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done We only provide an objective definition of Christianity, that's it. We don't accept the Christian's viewpoint of what defines a "Christian." In this article, a Christian is simply anyone who adheres to or claims to adhere to the religion of Christianity. There is a whole discussion within Christianity of what a "true Christian" is, but that has no place in an objective encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadiomals (talk • contribs)

Impact Of Christianity On Civilization

Suggested paragraph
The role of the Christianity in Western civilization has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of history and formation of Western society. Through its long history, the church has been a major source of social services like schooling, several universities in the world was founded by the Church, [1] some historians of science J.L. Heilbron,[2] A.C. Crombie, David Lindberg,[3] Edward Grant, Thomas Goldstein,[4] and Ted Davis, have argued that the Church had a significant, positive influence on the development of science,[5][6] and the Church's priest-scientists, many of whom were Jesuits, have been among the leading lights in astronomy, genetics, geomagnetism, meteorology, seismology, and solar physics, becoming some of the "fathers" of these sciences,.[7] Church encourage medical care and welfare services and had influnce in economic;[8] inspiration for culture and philosophy; and influential player in politics and religion. And engineering and mathematics was highly advanced and its reflected through the evolution of architecture in the Middle Ages. In various ways it has sought to affect Western attitudes to vice and virtue in diverse fields. It has, over many centuries, promulgated the teachings of Jesus within the Western World and remains a source of continuity linking modern Western culture to classical Western culture.

The Bible and Christian theology have also strongly influenced Western philosophers and political activists.[9][10] The teachings of Jesus, such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan, are among the important sources for modern notions of Human Rights and the welfare measures commonly provided by governments in the West.[11] Long held Christian teachings on sexuality and marriage have also been influential in family life.

Christianity played a role in ending practices such as human sacrifice, slavery,[12] infanticide and polygamy.[13]Christianity in general affected the status of women by condemning infanticide (female infants were more likely to be killed), divorce, incest, polygamy, birth control, abortion and marital infidelity.[14] While official Church teaching[15] considers women and men to be complementary

Influence of Christianity does not stop the on Western civilization, Christians also have played a prominent role in the development and pioneering features of the Islamic civilization.[16]

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. festivals like Easter and Christmas are marked universally as public holidays; Pope Gregory XIII's Gregorian Calendar has been adopted internationally as the civil calendar; and time itself is measured by the West from the assumed date of the birth of the Church's founder, Jesus of Nazareth: the Year One AD (Anno Domini). In the list of the 100 Most Influential People in Human history, Percent 65 Christian figures from various fields.[17]

  1. ^ christianity and eduction
  2. ^ "J.L. Heilbron". London Review of Books. Retrieved 2006-09-15.
  3. ^ Lindberg, David C. (2003). When Science and Christianity Meet. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0-226-48214-6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  4. ^ Goldstein, Thomas (1995). Dawn of Modern Science: From the Ancient Greeks to the Renaissance. Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-80637-1. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  5. ^ christianity and science
  6. ^ Are Christians "Anti-Science?"
  7. ^ Wright, Jonathan (2004). The Jesuits. p. 189.
  8. ^ Weber, Max "The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism" (Penguin Books, 2002) translated by Peter Baehr and Gordon C. Wells
  9. ^ chruch and law
  10. ^ BiBle and Law
  11. ^ Good Samaritan. (n.d.). Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law. Retrieved January 09, 2010, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Good Samaritan
  12. ^ Chadwick, Owen p. 242.
  13. ^ Hastings, p. 309.
  14. ^ Stark, p. 104.
  15. ^ Kreeft, p. 61.
  16. ^ Rémi Brague, Assyrians contributions to the Islamic civilization
  17. ^ Religious Affiliation of History's 100 Most Influential People

I will add this Paragraph it's with many Sources.Jobas (talk) 20:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The section is basically cherrypicking, synthesis and POV editing, based on what is mostly unreliable, primary or tertiary sources. The question of the influence of Christianity on Western culture is in itself notable and relevant, however it is also a big and important subject that requires many weighty sources. This means you need to use the academic literature on this subject, basically making a summary of the historiography of it, since there is not a consensus among scholars about this and it has been disputed since the beginning of Christianity.
One example (although basically all your examples are very problematic in several ways): You write that Christianity and specifically the parable of the Good Samaritan was the originator of human rights. I have never seen such a claim made before by any scholar on human rights, most of which argue they were a product of the secularisation, tolerance and universalism that came out of the Age of Enlightenment, and whether this period in Western history is a product of or appeared in spite of Christianity is equally disputed. Also you do not source that claim with anything but an entry in a dictionary which mentions nothing about human rights at all. This problem with your usage of sources to cite claims that they do not support or usage of questionable sources like adherents.com, christiansofiraq.com seems systematic and combined with a non-neutral language and systematic bias makes your whole paragraph unsuitable for Wikipedia. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

how about this Paragraph Christianity has been an important part of the shaping of Western civilization, at least since the 4th century.[1] beside secularisation. several universities in the world was founded by the Church, [2].[3] and The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century and the ensuing Counter-Reformation affected the universities of Europe in different ways.[4] some historians of science J.L. Heilbron,[5] A.C. Crombie, David Lindberg,[6] Edward Grant, Thomas Goldstein,[7] and Ted Davis, have argued that the Church had a significant influence on the development of science,[8] and had a imapct on arts, iterature, philosophy ,cultural tradition, law and politics.[9] and during middle age period church building and ecclesiastical architecture reached new heights,[10] Christians also have played a prominent role in the Islamic civilization.[11] .Jobas (talk) 15:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Orlandis, A Short History of the Catholic Church (1993), preface.
  2. ^ christianity and eduction
  3. ^ Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, pp. 305, 312, 314f..
  4. ^ unvirsity from britannica
  5. ^ "J.L. Heilbron". London Review of Books. Retrieved 2006-09-15.
  6. ^ Lindberg, David C. (2003). When Science and Christianity Meet. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0-226-48214-6. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  7. ^ Goldstein, Thomas (1995). Dawn of Modern Science: From the Ancient Greeks to the Renaissance. Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-80637-1. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  8. ^ Science in Rome and Christianity from britannica
  9. ^ Influence of the church from britannica
  10. ^ Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, pp. 321–23, 365f.
  11. ^ Rémi Brague, Assyrians contributions to the Islamic civilization
The points about architecture and science are already made in the article. If you put in a paragraph like this, it will be a lighting rod for conter-arguments as you've already had here on the talk page. Better to leave such facts spread throughout this and other articles and let the reader come to their own conclusions. Perhaps a new article regarding the influence of christianity on western civilization, but be prepaired for opposing views to be added to it. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
since wikipedia is free encyclopdia it's mean i can write what i want, but it;s should be with verifiability sources, and this paragrah is achieved this i puted sources from britannica and academic literature and studies for historian of science. i will add it and in the paragrah of Criticism of Christianity it can added that there are criticism about christainty role on civilization. I tried befor to write new article about the influence of christianity on western civilization but they deleted and saied that it's redirected to christianity article: "covers a topic on which we already have a page - Christianity", so since it's not mention here i think it's should be add.Jobas (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can't write what you want. Wikipedia contributions has to adhere to a number of policies, of which WP:Verifiability is only one. And I do question your claim that you are adhering to that with the above proposal. "christiansofiraq.com" is still not a reliable source, and the claim that "Christians have played a prominent role in the Islamic civilization" is dubious at best. Furthermore there is still a question of cherrypicking sources and claims in order to make them fit the various claims you are setting forth. Encyclopedia Britannica, while a reliable source, is a tertiary source and is not adequate for the claims in your text either. Furthermore there are a lot of other policies that are relevant in connnection with your suggestion, like WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:REDFLAG. Lastly there are sentences in your proposal that just doesn't make any sense like "beside secularisation. several universities in the world was founded by the Church". What is that supposed to mean? The following section "The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century and the ensuing Counter-Reformation affected the universities of Europe in different ways" and "some historians of science [...] have argued that the Church [...] had a imapct on arts, iterature, philosophy ,cultural tradition, law and politics" is stating the obvious without really saying anything, and is already covered better in the article. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • i changed the paragraph rigth? so we talk about the new paragraph in the new one i didn't add the christiansofiraq.com, and yes dear christian played role in the Islamic civilization if heared befor about assyrian and thier role in house od wisdome[1] which saied:" Nestorian scholars scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers.", or maronite role during the nahda, anyway look here [2] it's saied about the influnce in lterature or what about here [3] "Christian monks who quickly began the process of translating ancient works into Latin. By the end of the 12th century much of the ancient heritage was again available to the Latin West" (role in keeping old knowlage) or about the role in eduction and sience -positve and nagative- [4]:"The principles of Galileo’s scientific research, however, were themselves the result of a Christian idea of science and truth" and in the last source you look at paragraph of church and sick welafre or the art ... to know that i don't bring these inforamtion from my mind it's written and as you saied brtitannica a reliable source, and is a tertiary source. so these one from brtitannica. when i wrote:" several universities in the world was founded by the Church". The following section "The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century and the ensuing Counter-Reformation affected the universities of Europe in different ways it's mean christianity, and prostestant had affectec in unvirsities i think the source meantion that "about protestant" so it's prove that church have an influnce in "univirsities". if there is problem about the way of writting i can write it again. Jobas (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Nestrian from britannica
  2. ^ Western-literature form brtitannica
  3. ^ since form brtitannica
  4. ^ christianity from brtitannica
The last citation in your modified suggestion above is to christiansofiraq.com. Regarding the second point, as you yourself quote it reads: "Nestorian scholars scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture", not "Christians also have played a prominent role in the Islamic civilization", which is quite a different thing. And again, with that citation and the following you are just reiterating Encyclopedia Britannica on a subject that according to WP:REDFLAG should be sourced by qualified scholarly secondary sources. The generalised summary of a tertiary source just won't do for such broad and disputed claims. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • puting here about nestorian - which are christian rigth? - it's just one example to show that christian from different sect have palyed a prominent role in islamic culther, since you questioned about it, so if i put also a another source about the role of eastern orthodox on politice and econimic or catholic maronite role in literature so we can say that christian sects have paly a prominent role in islamic civilization since they have impact on seince literatue and ploitice. I really don't understand you when i puted Encyclopedia Britannica you saied it;s not enough when i puted studies for historian as John L. Heilbron who is Professor of History University of California, Berkeley or David C. Lindberg who is President of the History of Science Society which mean thier studies are an academic literature and studies, it's enoungh, also so all these sourcs are not "qualified scholarly secondary sources" and, i don't know why you still focus in christiansofiraq.com and forget the other sourcese. i would ask that if the scourses in this articale is more verifiability. and for your information most of the other wikipdia copy of christianity even the Featured articles they meantion that christianity had an impact on western civilization so i understand from you that it's Unreliable. Jobas (talk) 00:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have never denied that Christianity has had an impact on Western culture, and I would be foolish to do so, but it really doesn't matter what you or I think, it is all down to the sources. Regarding the three remaining cites, the works of three academics, and which I have not covered so far in my objection, that is because you have failed to present any specific pages citing the exact claims you propose. Since their works are pretty standard and are present in the faculty library I frequent, I have looked through the books you cited, I admit that I only skimmed through them, looking for anything resembling your claims. But I have failed to find the exact phrasing where they voice claims that can be said to be similar to the interpretation you have presented. Since I can have missed it during my browsing, I would very much like to see references to the exact pages that supports your claims. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • ok i understand here that book when seince and christianity meet . Well pages 7-10 State that it is unfair to say that Christianity and Science were at odds during The Middle Ages It states that the relationship was complex, with each side existing in a tolerant state.It says that St.Augustine, and Sir Francis Bacon's ideologies are the one's that shape The Medieval Era.[1] in the intrdouction he begans with the idea that christianity relation with seince is"conflic" after that argued about the oponion that christianity has aided min many spefice way. i found onther sourcese Thomas Cahill, in his 1995 book How the Irish Saved Civilization, credited Irish Monks with having "saved" Western Civilization during this period and the period of the Hiberno-Scottish mission [2] and onther book for Thomas Woods How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization i will put the pages to prove my claims soon,.[3] and i will added the pages for all my sourcese soon.Jobas (talk) 02:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ when christianity and seince meet
  2. ^ How The Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe by Thomas Cahill, 1995.
  3. ^ How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

I'm pretty certain the Crusades didn't help Islamic civilisation. HiLo48 (talk) 00:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Islam gains access to those works via Syriac, and Coptic Christians who had those Greek, and other classical works at their disposal.It was Christian monks of The Oriental Churches that translated those works into Arabic.If anything, Islam would have been unable to synthesize those ancient philosophers, if it weren't for Christian monks who still had knowledge of Greek.It is true that in The West, knowledge of Greek had died out, with Latin taking it's place, but knowledge of Greek works survived because of Christians (mainly in The East). look at the bratinnaica my source. and for you information eastern christian had nothing with Crusades.Jobas (talk) 01:56, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove a bad source

In the section "Protestant Interpretations" the following reference is made: "The Second Helvetic Confession of Faith". Mb-soft.com. Retrieved 2010-11-19.. mb-soft.com is not a reliable source, a reliable publisher, and essentially serves as a kind of "geocities" for self-created content. Please remove this reference which is essentially, as far as I can tell, serving as WP:LINKSPAM. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 15:36, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. The reference appeared to be in there to back up Helvetic meaning Swiss in Latin -- I instead linked the word Helvetic to the Helvetic Republic page. If you'd like any further help, contact me on my user talk page. You might instead want to put a {{help me}} template up on your own user talk, or put the {{edit semi-protected}} template back up on this page and either way someone will be along to help you. :) Banaticus (talk) 23:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Founder of

If the Islam and Muhammad articles (prominently) state that Muhammad is the founder of Islam shouldn't the same principle (of NPOV) apply to the Jesus and Christianity articles? 175.107.232.114 (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that would be fine to add. Cite Hebrews 12:2 ("founder and perfecter of our faith") --75.65.161.214 (talk) 04:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except that if we start using the Bible as a reliable source, all sorts of weird stuff will appear in Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 05:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of what you think of the Bible, it is an accurate source for Christian perspectives on things. ReformedArsenal (talk) 14:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily. Since Christianity consists of countless different denominations with various interpretations of the Bible, it is better to use the writings of theologians and clergymen to get the "Christian perspective on things". Also, using the Bible as a citation for the claim in the thread could be regarded as WP:OR (or WP:SYNTH depending on the wording). --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the Bible is accepted as a reliable source, we should delete our Evolution article immediately. HiLo48 (talk) 19:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It would certainly lead to weird stuff like "According to the Bible, Nicolae Ceaușescu was the Son of God (Psalms 82:6 and Acts 17:28), being himself God (Psalms 82:6 and John 10:33–36)." If it worked for Jesus, in his quarrel with the Jews described in the Gospel of John, it certainly works for Nicolae, since those Jews were not assuming that Jesus were more divine than anyone else. Of course, this assumes that John did not make that up. So, if the Bible were a reliable source, it would be reliably sourced that Nicolae was God and the Son of God. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Historically, there is little doubt that Muhammad is the founder of Islam, both the creed and the organization. Jesus, on the other hand, was, as far as we know, an apocalyptic Jewish preacher. "Christianity" as such only slowly coalesced in the generations after his death. The first gospels are maybe written around the year 70, there is a strong influence of neo-platonic thought (especially in John), and the Nicene Creed, which more or less represents the beginning of what is modern mainstream Christianity, was only accepted in 325. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dr. Tal Ilan considers that Mary Magdalene was the founder of Christianity, she being the first person who had the idea that Jesus was resurrected. Source: BBC Bible Mysteries ep. 4, "The Real Mary Magdalene", 2003. Bart Ehrman agrees, saying that she was the first apostle and mentioning her medieval title apostola apostolorum. Source: Ehrman, Bart D. (2006). "18. Mary: The Residual Questions. Question Two: Was Mary the First Apostle?". Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend. USA: Oxford University Press. p. 253. ISBN 0-19-530013-0. Were there other women apostles? Other women who understood themselves, and were understood by others, to be commissioned by Christ in order to spread the word of his death and resurrection? We know of at least one other, one who could be thought of, in fact, as the original apostle: Mary Magdalene. Mary is called an apostle by some early Christian writers. ... Mary and the others, therefore, could be thought of as "apostles sent to the apostles," a title that Mary herself came to bear in the Middle Ages (Latin: apostola apostolorum). {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help) Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't be hasty in adding such information. Drmies (talk) 23:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I have already edited the article before reading your message. I understand that you find the Ilan reference not reliable, but Ehrman is a world-known authority in these matters and the reference is properly sourced. Besides, already quoted in the article was N.T. Wright, who considers the question if Paul was the founder of Christianity. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This way anyone could claim that history is speculative, especially in respect to the historical Jesus. How else could it be? But the canonical Gospels do confirm Ilan's and Ehrman's view that Mary Magdalene was the first person who came up with the idea that Jesus was resurrected, or at least a member of such a group of persons who started the story of a resurrected Jesus. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, there is a very significant difference between being the first one to (apparently) see the resurrected Jesus and being the founder of Christianity. One does not even remotely mean the other. Theoretically, I suppose, we could have any number of arguments about who the "founder" of Christianity is, based on one detail of rite, theology, pratice, or another. However, it does seem reasonable to me that, regardless of who is described as being the "founder" of the religion (whatever that means), Jesus was the person around whom the possible founders assembled, and was the first leader of their movement, prior to his death. That being the case, it does seem reasonable to me to say Jesus was the founder/originator. While there are academic arguments about who the true "founder" is, the common sense answer would seem to be Jesus. John Carter (talk) 00:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As Heidegger said, "philosophy is the outright denial of common sense". I guess that the same applies to science. If we would write common sense stuff, we would not need reliable sources, we could just come up with our best guess. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Besides, Ilan defines Christianity as "the belief in the resurrected Christ" and maintains that the first person to have and proclaim such belief was Mary Magdalene, as far as the canonical gospels can be trusted as historically accurate. Ilan maintains that Mary Magdalene convinced others that Jesus has resurrected, and so she started the religion of Christianity. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In response to the first point, wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a philosophy text. Regarding the second, by your own comment, that seems to be based on the opinion of one and only one scholar. I very seriously question whether that one individual's opinion is of such staggering importance that it meets WP:WEIGHT. One scholar is just one RS - there are others. Honestly, you seem to be taking that one individual's opinions as being the sole possible source of information on this topic. I cannot see how that is even remotely reasonable, particularly as you have not provided a clear definition of exactly what the "Christianity" that was founded was, and that would seem to be at least as important. Also, I would suggest that you perhaps look at some of the other possibile choices here. Others say Paul was the founder, and others point at others. I note that Encyclopedia Britannica, at least in the lead here, steers clear of the issue entirely, and indicates that Christianity "stems from" the teachings of Jesus. I can see, perhaps, a separate article on Founder of Christianity controversy, if that topic clearly in and of itself meets WP:N requirements, but I do have to very seriously question whether there is need in this article to even directly refer to the matter. At least, until and unless other sources which actively support that one individual scholars' assertion are produced, which would seemingly be required regarding what seem to be contentious subjects such as the possible "founder" of Christianity as a religion. There are so many unanswered variables regarding both the definition of "religion" and "founder" in this instance, that, honestly, I think the best bet would be to not directly address it in this article. John Carter (talk) 00:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Going by the oldest surviving texts we have -- the Gospels in the New Testament, the non-canonical book of 2nd Clement and the non-canonical Greek and Ethopian versions of the Apocalypse of Peter -- although the texts differ in many ways, they're pretty clear that Jesus is aware that the religious movement which he is founding will continue on after his death. A succinct version is Matthew 16:18, where Jesus says "upon this rock I will build my church" (emphasis added). Whether you go with the Catholic interpretation that the "rock" is Peter himself, or the Protestant interpretation that the "rock" is Peter's statement of faith, Jesus clearly is stating that he plans for his religious movement to continue on. Whatever you believe Jesus to be or to have been (human preacher, son of God, incarnation of God, a dual persona, etc.), and despite scholarly demarcations of various Biblical sources as "non-original" (such as the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" parable), Christian churches and scholars are generally in agreement that Jesus was the founder. See for instance the book "Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend" by Bart D. Ehrman. Banaticus (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All WP:OR (or WP:SYNTH depending on how you spin it). You will need secondary reliable sources. I can't really see the problem here. There is an abundance of reliable secondary sources to back this up without having to resort to primary sources like that. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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