Talk:Muhammad/images

Credibility

I question the credibility of this article since it does not follow the Islamic rules of depicting the prophets own image. By displaying an image of the prophet then you have discredited this entire article all together. comment added by HShaltout747

Please read: Wikipedia is not censored and the FAQ on Muhammad about why the pictures will not be removed. Jarkeld (talk) 01:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia is not bound by the rules of Islam. The article would have less credibility if it adhered only to an Islamic point of view. ~Amatulić (talk) 09:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Amatulic, I'd say that these images reduce the credibility/quality of this article even from non-Muslim perspectives. Just compare if someone plastered images like this one all over the Mozart article. Wouldn't you agree that such images would reduce the quality of the Mozart article? I'm sure that most Mozart fans would find that unencyclopedic or even offensive. Similarly, one wonders why there are images from an obscure Children book that was drawn almost a 1000-years after the fact, like Siyer-i Nebi, all over the Muhammad article. Wiqixtalk 15:08, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

That comparison might have merit if this article contained images from the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, but it doesn't. Siyer-i Nebi is a classic 16th century Ottoman manuscript (not a child's cartoon like the Mozart example) and the image provides a fascinating and informative view which couldn't be conveyed by text alone. What lacks credibility is complaints about historical images in an article about a historical person. Doc Tropics 16:19, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Doc Tropics, actually Siyer-i Nebi is an obscure children book that was produced almost a 1000 years after the fact. Historical, yes, but still historically insignificant and irrelevant to the study of Muhammad himself. Also, since you claim that these images are informative, could you please explain in what sense (considering that they contain errors by showing Muhammad in Ottoman settings), and, more importantly, your positive assertion is based on which authority? Wiqixtalk 16:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Speaking as a non-Muslim, I would say you could not possibly be more wrong. As an objective viewer interested in historical people, I would expect to see such depictions on this article, same as I would for any other significant person in history. To remove the images would destroy any expectation of reliability and neutrality, as I would immediately question what else has been changed, omitted or censored. I would therefore have no choice but to believe the article carries a biased point of view in that scenario. Resolute 16:50, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Resolute, so you consider *all* articles about historical figures that lack images to be biased or censored? Is this for all articles or just a special treatment reserved for Muhammad? If it's a special treatment, then try to be neutral please, and remember that images conveying false information are being removed all the time. Also, your argument suffers from WP:Recentism because it assumes that a typical reader would think of censorship while reading this article. Why would they? Moreover, you're a heavily-involved editor in this battle, so by definition you're anything but "objective" (assuming that objectivity actually exists).

On the other hand, a typical reader, being not part of any battles, will think that such images are here because they were deemed notable (which is false), they effectively illustrate an event (false), historically significant (false), drawn by a Muslim (partly true/disputed/false), etc. This is what I thought when I first read this article a couple of months ago, which all turned out to be false or original research. I think for now it would be best to add a couple of tags to this article (and FAQ) just to warn readers of the high dosage of misinformation awaiting them. Wiqixtalk 22:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

We've been through this repeatedly with you, and as per usual, your personal POV is not supported by policy, logic, consensus or neutrality. I realize that you are simply going to try and re-fight the same lost battle every time a new thread is created on this talk page, so at this point I am going to deny you the opportunity by simply ignoring your arguments until you have something new to say. Hopefully others will too. Resolute 22:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not a "personal POV", for I have already referred to 2-3 sources that support my claims. Here is another one. It's a book by Thomas Walker Arnold (full reference below). Arnold asserts that "pictures of Muhammad are so rare that some writers have even doubted the existence of any." (p.91) This supports my claim that these images are obscure. Arnold also describes the lack of pictorial religious art throughout Islamic history, which is a well-established historical fact. So despite the fact that Muhammad's history spans 1400-years that were overwhelmingly lacking in pictorial depictions of him, we see plenty in this article -- to the point of using multiple pages from the same obscure books and periods (a perfect example of giving undue space). Also contrary to what the FAQ claims that these images were drawn by Muslims, Arnold notes concerning the illustrators of Jami' al-Tawarikh that "we have no indications as to their nationality or religion". (p.94) Full reference below. Wiqixtalk 14:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Arnold, Thomas W. (2002-11). Painting in Islam, a Study of the Place of Pictorial Art in Muslim Culture. Gorgias Press LLC. ISBN 9781931956918. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Referencing the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy problem, which means you have not understood the core of the crisis. Displaying an image of any of the 3 prophets is harmful to the islamic ways, what the Jyllands-Posten did was adding harm to misery. Again, i repeat my questioning, the writers have no background about islam, nor its traditions and have no respect whatsoever for the readers. I ask you to remove the entire post because of continued illiteracy regarding the topic. comment added by HShaltout747 —Preceding undated comment added 18:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC).

Around and around we go. Wikipedia isn't bound by Islam's rules. Islam-specific articles aren't bound by islam's rules, nor is any article bound by the rules of its subject (we are allowed, for example, to have an article on the Amish, with images, who frown on the use of computers and dislike having their picture taken.)

The pictures stay. --King Öomie 16:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I think i diverted off and was replying somewhere else, I went to the Muhammad/Discussions (Edit request from 180.149.48.51, 26 October 2010). Keep the page and the images, but please understand, their incomplete unless you say the full truth about them, making it your responsibility in keeping them that way. Thank you for your time and your patience. PEACE!! HShaltout747 (talk) 13:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the "full truth" is that some people here are adamant that the "full truth" as should be printed on wikipedia reads "This hateful, awful image, created by an enemy of Islam, characterizes the sheer ignorance of the unfaithful". I think you can see why really any description along these lines isn't acceptable. We're not trying to discredit artists- the purpose of the pictures is to display how Mohammad has been portrayed in the past. --King Öomie 14:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Kingoomieiii, I agree with your last point. That's why we have a "depiction of" article, which is perfectly appropriate for an encyclopedia. But adding images to the main article of Muhammad is not always appropriate. For instance, it's rather unencyclopedic to use images found in a children's book from a 1000 years after the fact to represent an influential historical battle like the conquest of Mecca. I've never seen such an awful editorial judgment in any other article on Wikipedia. Wiqixtalk 20:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance of how long after Mohammad's death the painting was made. If you're making the argument that the source isn't notable enough to pull an image from, good luck, but otherwise I don't see your point, especially if you're trying to argue that the point of view of the author isn't 'correct'. Historical depictions aren't always picture-perfect (for example, anthropologically speaking, there is little to no chance that the historical Jesus was a white man, despite what nearly 100% of depictions would have you believe). --King Öomie 21:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Kingoomieiii, the date of this specific book is relevant because it shows Muhammad in 16th-century Ottoman settings (i.e., as a person from 1000-years after the fact). Not very useful or informative in the context of this article. So I'm not arguing on the basis of "correctness", but appropriateness (encyclopedic or not, informative or not, given due space or not). Also, the Jesus comparison is not valid considering that, unlike the Jesus images, images of Muhammad were obscure and generally not influential. Wiqixtalk 15:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I've seen this argument entirely too many times, so let me be plainly clear.

• It doesn't matter how long after the fact the images were made.
• It doesn't matter that the images likely don't reflect what Mohammad actually looked like (and no one is saying they do).
• Their lack of photorealism does not hurt their credibility as Historical Depictions of Mohammad in any way.
• They will not be removed on the basis of this argument, or any form of this argument. Really.

I'd like to put a pin in this topic now, as it's entirely fruitless. --King Öomie 15:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

These Images are extremely offensive.

Islam strictly prohibits any photography or drawing faces of a human and leads to the worse punishments in Hell. Even more if you are drawing the images of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). This is extremely offensive to us Muslims. We said many times to people do not draw any pictures of the Holy prophet yet you throw this regard over your shoulder and post it unto your profile. The Ottoman empire wasn't even considered a caliphate empire of Islam rather an empire of it own. Whoever has done this must have done this in secret and who ever shows this isn't improving any details of the life and message of our Holy Prophet(pbuh). If you want you can take pictures of Mosques or sceneries of Battles or even Maps showing how where and how Islam spread you may do so but posting up pictures showing nothing of significance besides the bodies of Gabriel(pbuh) and our Holy Prophet(pbuh) is strictly prohibited and offensive to Islam and the followers of that faith. We do not own wikipedia and we don't operate it but the most we can do it talk in this page. Please remove these pictures. Thousands of Muslims watching this are in stress!

P.S A troll is someone who is offensive regardlessly. Any Muslim trying to express on this certain page isn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdul3basid (talk • contribs) 01:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. You're not a troll, as you're obviously sincere. And thank you for being polite. That said, you haven't really given a good reason why the images should be removed. Everything stresses or offends somebody; if we were to remove things on those grounds, there'd be nothing left.—Chowbok ☠ 01:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, you haven't read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. Please do so. The images aren't "extremely offensive", they are offensive only to you, because you decided it was so, or were told it was so. We all have a choice about what offends us. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the Koran does not prohibit such images (though it does prohibit worshiping them). The Koran also clearly states that what is not prohibited is permitted. So - these images are permitted here - and you are not permitted to worship them. OK? And if it makes you feel any better, I promise not to worship any of these images, either. Rklawton (talk) 05:04, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

NPOV?

"Wikipedia is not censored for the benefit of any particular group. So long as they are relevant to the article and do not violate any of Wikipedia's existing policies, nor the law of the U.S. state of Florida, where most of Wikipedia's servers are hosted" - So if the laws of U.S. said that you cannot depict some one, then you would abide by, but not if the laws of Islam says so? NPOV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.220.164 (talk) 06:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

No, what that means is that the only laws Wikipedia abides by are those that govern its servers. That's not optional, Wikipedia has no choice in the matter if it doesn't want to be sued. It doesn't follow any other laws, religious or secular. NPOV doesn't apply. Dougweller (talk) 07:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, beyond sued. If the Foundation started hosting child pornography or some similarly illegal content, they'd be arrested and the server hardware seized. But, for the record, there are no Florida laws forbidding the depiction of particular historical figures, so we're in the clear of your hypothetical "gotcha" question. Doug is correct, by the way- NPOV refers to editorial decisions, not legal ones (WHAT we print, not what we're ALLOWED to print). --King Öomie 07:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I knew if I monitored this page for enough years that someone would someday come up with an original argument for removing the images. Thanks for that. Yes, if Wikipedia were hosted in another country, the legal content would be different, but that isn't the same thing as editorial policy. I note that the Persian Wikipedia has no problem showing images of Muhammad. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't quite see how this is an original argument. Of course if our servers were in Iran, things would be different, but it would also be a sign of rather questionable judgement on Wikimedia's part to put its servers in under the jurisdiction of a theocratic regime. It is no coincidence that the concept of an encyclopedia is connected with the Age of Enlightenment. We should not forget that in spite of all cultural relativism, there are places where free thought is possible, and other places where it is repressed, and Wikipedia as well as all of the internet is a product of the former. If you don't like the godless libertarian west, what on earth are you doing on the internet in the first place? And I am not just talking about Islam. conservapedia is just as ironic a project. --dab (𒁳) 21:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I meant that the argument is "original" in the sense that I hadn't seen it before, whereas all other requests to remove the images have been based on the same tired old arguments already addressed in the FAQ. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Wowsers, it's amazing that after all these years, editors are still popping in, calling for the deletion of the images. GoodDay (talk) 05:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. I am not asking for removal of the pictures. I do agree that knowledge and art should be shared and recorded without restrictions, and if laws are to be violated for that reason then they should be violated. I am just asking for clarification whether Wikipedia should be claiming that they are completely neutral while they do not adhere to Muslim laws but adhere to U.S. laws. Muslim laws are valid anywhere in the world as long as the person being subjected to adheres to it, even in Florida. Since, Wikipedia is actively deciding not to adhere certain laws, and to adhere other ones, it should be made clear in the policies what counts as an acceptable law to wikipedia and what does not. For example, (despiting being from a Muslim family and a largely Muslim society) my mother does not adhere to laws regarding 'acceptable Muslim women clothing' because she think that law is wrong and unacceptable; but this means she am making a decision of "good or bad" and wikipedia is doing the same. My question is, what's Wikipedia's "good or bad" policy in regards to the laws they abide by? Who and how made the decision to not abide by Muslim laws, but abide by Florida laws? [for clarification, I am the same anonymous user above]

And, by the way, before you start throwing big phrase like 'godless libertarian west' and "age of enlightenment" without knowing anything about other cultures, United States prohibited images of dead united states soldiers throughout the wars in the last ten years and web sites have been shut down for violating that law in the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.220.161 (talk) 23:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The decision to abide by US and Florida law is a practical not a ethical or moral choice. Breach of US law could result in real world repercussions including the seizure of the servers themselves. The only thing that I know of that Wikipedia really censors because of the location of the servers is child pornography. It is theoretically possible that there might be a location for the servers that would allow more freedom of speech, but I don't know where that would be. There are no laws in the US forbidding sharing pictures of dead US soldiers and they are all over the internet including websites with servers located in the US. --Leivick (talk) 23:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

My information on the images of soldiers was slightly wrong. the law was revoked in 2004 : http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/apr/23/Iraqandthemedia.pressandpublishing

Would wikipedia have published images of dead U.S. soldiers before 2004? Probably not. But why so? What if U.S. got involved in another war and revived the ban? Would wikipedia remove the images? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.220.161 (talk) 23:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Who knows if Wikipedia would have published the images if they had been leaked? We certainly would have discussed it and I actually think we probably would have, if there was an encyclopedic purpose. There was never a law against showing these images, there was a DOD policy against releasing them which which actually happened to violate US law and the DOD was forced to share pictures taken by its own photographers. In any case showing pictures of Muhammad is both legal in the US and serves an encyclopedic purpose, so I see zero problem using them. --Leivick (talk) 23:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not that Wikipedia "chooses" to follow some laws and not others, rather WP follows ALL laws which can be legally enforced against it, and no others. After all, you don't expect Italians living in Italy to follow French law do you? Or expect Canadians at home to abide by Japanese law? Or Jews in Israel to live by Sharia law? The laws of the U.S. and Florida can be enforced because our servers are located there; Florida is our "home" so to speak, so we abide by those laws, but no others. Doc Tropics 01:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that the point is Wikipedia isn't neutral because it must follow US laws. Point taken. Wikipedia is neutral when neutrality doesn't conflict with US (and Florida) laws. We aren't going to start violating US laws or move our servers to a lawless country in order to maintain some sort of global neutrality. Make a note of that on the relevant Five Pillars page and move on. Rklawton (talk) 05:01, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Message from 175.106.60.185

Come-on dear! there is a big difference between a Christian and Christianity and big difference between a Muslim and Islam. If you want to know the position of any religion about anything you have to refer to the Scriptures. Now according to the Quran and Hadith(Teachings of the Prophet P.B.U.H) we cannot draw the pictures of our Prophet and the prominent companions of the Prophet P.B.U.H.

There are many wrong things that some Muslims are doing, but we cannot associate it to Islam.

My request is that If wikipedia can bring any quotation from Quran or Teachings of our Prophet P.B.U.H, then you can put any pictures, but there is no quotation that allows those pictures on that page. For us Muslims to draw picture of Prophets is a Bigger Sin.

Please wikipedians, Anything in Wikipedia is brought through a reference. You guys cannot put pictures of people without their permission. Do you guys have any reference from our Quran and Hadith that gives you permission to put fake pictures of our Prophet?

I like wikipedia, I have tried my best to help wikipedia not by posting or editing here but some other ways, It is all because Wikipedia's policy is neutral, so does neutral mean putting fake pictures of our Prophet P.B.U.H. I am very sorry, why are you hurting our feelings and Ideology.

To put the picture of an actor or actress, you have to get permission or find free pictures of him or her, but Muhammad P.B.U.H is the Prophet of a more than Billion muslims, almost all muslims are protesting, but can you please give a reference to prove posting such fake pictures.

Thanks with a hope that wikipedians will not hurt our feelings anymore.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.106.60.185 (talk) 22:56, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I moved your message down here. Since you made a lot of lines, I assumed it was meant to be a separate entry. Sorry if it was indeed meant to be attached to the text it was posted below.

Anyway, this is an article about Muhammed as a person, with a lot of details on the religious aspect of him as a historical figure, though there is a page that deals with the Islamic account of Muhammed. All pages on Wikipedia must be written from a secular point of view, that is to say that you will not find critical information on cults/religions or other kinds of businesses censored on behalf of the people/organisation that the article is about. We simply don't need their permission, because if we did, then Wikipedia would be worthless as each article would be what the subjects of the article wanted it to be. An article on Scientology ould be exclusively about the crimes of psychiatry and all the good things about L Ron Hubbard, an article on slavery would conform to the viewpoint of Neo-Confederates, and so on, so on. As such, Wikipedia is not subject to social norms, religious dogma, or censorship on behalf of the subject of the article. Now, that is not to say in the least that Muslims cannot edit Islamic articles, or Scientologists Scientilogy-related articles. The whole idea is to source the info to reliable third-party sources. If the images' origins were unknown, their authors unknown, and the pictures not historically/culturally significant, then you would be well within your right to question their inclusion.

In this particular case, neutrality means that we can't submit to religious pressure because Wikipedia is a secular project; religious norms and values have no power here. It doesn't matter if the paintings are not accurate, because they tell a lot about how Muhammed was viewed artistically by the Ottomans, the Persians, and even the Russians(drawing on origins of the pictures in this article). The Jesus article has images of Jesus, too, and we know Jesus was not white as he's portrayed, and yet, those images still have cultural and historical value. As far as getting permission goes -- Paintings are not copyrighted as far as I understand. The images in this article have been obtained from their respective sources with legal permission. Other than that, there's something called fair use that applies here -- Images can be used to illustrate the subject matter, but I'm not very knowledgeable on this particular subject; I try to stay out of anything copyright-related. I hope I answered your question or at least clarified things a bit. Eik Corell (talk) 00:08, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

The Quran does not prohibit making images of Muhammad, so I find it sad that someone who is passionate about their faith would dare change even a word of their holy book. The Quran does say very clearly "that which is not forbidden is permitted". So yes, it's permitted to make images - especially for teaching. Isn't that what Muhammad wanted - teaching? It is, of course, forbidden to worship images - any images, so please take care not to worship any of the images you might see here (if you're Muslim). And the Hadith? No one should give a hadith precedence over the Quran. Also note that not all Muslim sects follow all hadiths - they pick and choose. Rklawton (talk) 15:39, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Singling out Muhammad for special treatment is a form of idolatry. And to my understanding, idolatry is prohibited by the Qur'an. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the Quran does single out Muhammad for special treatment in a couple of places. For example, unlike any other man, the Quran made it clear that absolutely no one was permitted to marry one of his wives after he died. So in that sense, the Quran elevated Muhammad to something above a man. Rklawton (talk) 02:06, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Amatulić, the only special treatment I see is maintaining images that convey wrong information and violate WP:DUE, and it's only happening in this article. Otherwise, could you name one other article about an important historical figure that contains multiple and historically insignificant images that show him/her as a person from 1000 years after the fact? Wiqixtalk 19:38, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

How are the images historically insignificant? -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 22:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Biggest Blasphamy against Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) on Wikipedia

the images shown in this article come in the issue of blasphemy please remove the images which is someones imagination not the reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fahadaziz85 (talk • contribs) 14:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

There's a link at the top of the page that explains why those pictures are there--also, there is a very helpful explanation there about how you can change a setting in your preferences so that you will not need to see the images. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:12, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

---

Hey Wikipedians, what is going on.. Please remove the pictures of the cartoon guy on this article. They are not our beloved Prophet P.B.U.H. Why do you guys want the muslim countries to ban Wikipedia. Please remove the pictures, please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warsaji (talk • contribs) 18:38, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

There are no cartoons on this pag, only historical images, some of which were made by muslims. Jarkeld (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

---

It seems that calling the paintings "cartoons" is the new talking point of those who wish to force Wikipedia to remove the pictures of Muhammad. In the past month or two there have been multiple individuals using almost identical language to put forth a lame new "cartoon" angle to this whole brouhaha. Referring to the the painted representations of Muhammad that are featured in this article as cartoons is akin to claiming South Park's depiction of Jesus Christ is no different than Rembrandt's "The Storm on the Sea of Galilee"; a "Bart Simpson as Mozart" picture linked above is used in a particularly stupid attempt to make such an asinine comparison. Of course it should come as no surprise that Muslims are trying to force everyone else to adhere to the norms of their religion. After all that is THE hallmark of modern-day Islam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.154.97 (talk) 18:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

They are illustrations, not paintings. Comparing them to famous paintings is rather off mark. Furthermore, Siyer-i Nebi was a book that was written for didactic purposes, using a simple and direct language, and with the intention of emphasizing basic values, like honesty and courage. It was probably intended for a younger audience, perhaps for teaching young and prospective Sultans (a very important factor in Ottoman court). We also know that the team of painters who illustrated the book (although their individual identities have been disputed) were famous for illustrating simple romances. Now, considering the target audience of this book, and other low-quality features, like showing Muhammad in contemporary Ottoman settings, it doesn't seem far fetched to compare them to cartoons, and certainly they are not useful or informative in the context of this article (which is the main point that others have continually failed to address). Wiqixtalk 09:26, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Come-on dear! there is a big difference between a Christian and Christianity and big difference between a Muslim and Islam. If you want to know the position of any religion about anything you have to refer to the Scriptures. Now according to the Quran and Hadith(Teachings of the Prophet P.B.U.H) we cannot draw the pictures of our Prophet and the prominent companions of the Prophet P.B.U.H.

There are many wrong things that some Muslims are doing, but we cannot associate it to Islam.

My request is that If wikipedia can bring any quotation from Quran or Teachings of our Prophet P.B.U.H, then you can put any pictures, but there is no quotation that allows those pictures on that page. For us Muslims to draw picture of Prophets is a Bigger Sin.

Please wikipedians, Anything in Wikipedia is brought through a reference. You guys cannot put pictures of people without their permission. Do you guys have any reference from our Quran and Hadith that gives you permission to put fake pictures of our Prophet?

I like wikipedia, I have tried my best to help wikipedia not by posting or editing here but some other ways, It is all because Wikipedia's policy is neutral, so does neutral mean putting fake pictures of our Prophet P.B.U.H. I am very sorry, why are you hurting our feelings and Ideology.

To put the picture of an actor or actress, you have to get permission or find free pictures of him or her, but Muhammad P.B.U.H is the Prophet of a more than Billion muslims, almost all muslims are protesting, but can you please give a reference to prove posting such fake pictures.

Thanks with a hope that wikipedians will not hurt our feelings anymore.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.106.60.185 (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

...if as you say, you are a regular Wikipedia user, you will already know the answer and should not be surprised. DeCausa (talk) 23:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

If there is any "blasphemy against Islam" here, it is on the part of the "Muslims" who are turning Muhammad into an object of religious taboo and worship. If you know anything about Islam and Muhammad's teachings, you would realize that he did not want to be worshipped as a deity. That honour was to be reserved for God alone. The entire reason depictions of Muhammad were discouraged was to prevent people from creating idols of the prophet and worshipping them.

All this prancing about with the worship of Muhammad and the religious taboos associated with him is simply poor Islam. You want to be a Muslim, please go and do your homework and learn what the message of Muhammad was in the first place. --dab (𒁳) 11:32, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

That echoes something I've been wanting to say for a while. The prohibition against images is, as I understand it, intended to prevent idolatry. However, by singling out Muhammad for special treatment, Muslims are, in fact, practicing idolatry already, so the presence of these images has nothing to do with the "idolatry" argument.. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

My understanding of the Muslim argument goes like this: if you're not allowed to spread false information about Muhammad in verbal form, then you shouldn't be allowed to do it in image form. The keyword here is conveying false information about Muhammad, and almost every image in this article testifies to this (e.g., angles being female contrary to the teachings of Qur'an, Muhammad belonging to Chinese-Mongolian tradition contrary to primary sources stating he was an Arab, Kaaba and surroundings shown in Ottoman settings as opposed to 7th-century Arabia, etc). It is thus blasphemy because the closer you examine those images the less you learn about Muhammad and his teachings. Wiqixtalk 21:29, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The same argument can be made about any image of Jesus (e.g. false information, always portrayed as Caucasian, etc.). And yet, there's a fundamental difference: Christians seem to recognize that depictions of Jesus are simply depictions, and they recognize depictions that are intended as respectful. The Muslims that come here to complain evidently don't have that understanding. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:52, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't really presenting an argument. I was only stating that some Muslims think blasphemy is a form of misinformation, which was not considered by you or dab (to put it bluntly, your claims that the prohibition "just" intended to prevent idolatry is false). As for the Jesus comparison, you shouldn't ignore the fact the images of Jesus are notable, had religious functions, and used to decorate churches throughout history. These facts should explain why Christians are more used to seeing images in Jesus. Conversely, images of Muhammad are neither notable nor historically significant. According to a source I cited, they were extremely rare throughout history that some historians thought they did not even exist. If you ignore notability, ignore reliable sources, and keep repeating false claims about blasphemy in Islam, people will complain and ask for those images to be removed or reduced. Also, most of them were drawn by artists not known to have been Muslims (contrary to what the FAQ claims). So the FAQ needs to change too. All in all, these are valid reasons to complain about, and none of which are applicable to other articles. Wiqixtalk 00:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Anyone against pictures of Muhammad...sign here

Here's an idea. Rather than continually getting new threads from those opposed to pictures of Muhammad appearing in this article, why don't those opposed to the pictures just put their request here. It can then just be archived regularly. For these people...the answer is 'no'. For the reasons why, please look at the box at the top of this page with this in it: DeCausa (talk) 23:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

SIGN HERE:

That won't stop them from making requests. There's already a number of online petitions about Muhammad images in this article. We ignore them too. It would be simpler just to direct people there. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

...and consensus can always change. There may be a valid reason someone has for removing them.--Adam in MO Talk 03:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Quite so. Images have been removed from this article in the past for valid reasons. See, for example, Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive 17#Proposed removal of deliberately provocative images. Most of the time, however, invalid reasons are proposed, over and over ad nauseam, by Muslims who are personally offended because they were taught to be offended. WP:IDONTLIKEIT and other arguments are amply addressed in Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I 100% agree with you but, if the disclaimer at the top won't stop them than neither will this. This talk page, the disclaimer and the FAQ are as good as it will get.--Adam in MO Talk 00:19, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Complain

Muhammad's (PBUH) Pictures should be removed as these are not allowed According to Islam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.152.74.25 (talk) 04:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

See above, thanks. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 2.120.26.236, 3 February 2011

remove these pictures now {{edit semi-protected}} The article about Muhammad has images where he is shown in the pictures. This is blasphemy and in Islam we are strictly against any images to be made about our Prophet. We find it extremely offensive and such acts cannot be tolerated therefore dear respected user, please take off these images immediately and change it to images of Masjid al-Haram (situated in Makkah), or even Masjid al-Aqsa instead of fake images of our beloved Prophet. Thank you for your sincere attention.

2.120.26.236 (talk) 11:35, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

 Not done Discussed at length in past. See notice at top of this page. DeCausa (talk) 11:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Is there an organized campaign to fill up this page with these requests? These editors seem unwilling to read the notices before posting. It's as if they are blindly following orders.- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:02, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it - it's not very 'organized' if it is. I think it's just a strongly held view. They have prompted me to think about the choice/no. of images in the article. The focus has been on why the pics should not be removed rather why they are there. I've skimmed through the archives and couldn't track down why these particular choices were made. Does anyone who was involved at the time remember? It does occur to me that the choice of the 5 Ilkhanid and Ottoman pictures and the Russian painting may be a little... problematic. It seems to me that, as a generality, there would be three reasons to chose an image: to show what the person actually looked like (not applicable); to show what they might have looked like - typical style of dress etc (not applicable to most, as Ottoman/Ilkhanid styles are shown - perhaps applies to the Russian paninting); and to show what the prevalent cultural image of that person is, eg as with Jesus (mostly not applicable - since by definition there is no cultural image in general. The images shown are representative of 2 relatively narror cultural sources). It's made me wonder whether it should be reduced to say one Ilkhanid or Ottoman picture and the Russian picture, otherwise it's making me think it is a little 'undue'. But I'd be interested if someone could point out where this is discussed in the archive. Thanks. 14:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to see links to the discussion. Sometimes it feels like we keep them just to to prove we're not censored. I'm not saying we should take them down, but I'd like to here the justification for keeping them specifically in this article, especially since, as DeCausa notes, they don't all seem necessary. On the other hand, as long as we have even a single picture here, I imagine we'll get the same complaints, so it's not like taking some down will solve the problem. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

There are multiple depictions in the article for the same reason there are multiple depictions of Jesus in the article about him. No one sat down with Muhammad or Jesus, drew his portrait then had him sign off on it. None of the images of either are considered to be completely faithful physical depictions. They do however give us important information as to how he has been represented by a variety of different cultures in different time periods.

The only reason images should ever be removed of either is if they are giving a misleadingly disproportionate weight to a particular artist or culture's representation. There are thousands of pictures of Jesus. If you picked all of the pictures of him drawn as a Native American from some obscure American artist in the 20th Century, that would be misleading and clearly not an accurate portrayal of how he has been represented over the course of history. There aren't many images of Muhammad, so there is more justification in taking them from a limited number of sources. If anything could improve the article it would actually be more pictures giving a broader view of how he has been portrayed in various significant populations.

One thing that seems to be getting ignored here is that the number of protests against the inclusion of these images indicates that they are considered representative of Muhammad to even the current Muslim community. None of the captions say "This is Muhammad." They say this is a depiction of him in such and such painting from such and such culture. Given that, the only possible argument for blasphemy is that the images actually do represent him in the view of the offended, which is their purpose.. to show how he has been typically represented.

Of course see also Talk:Muhammad/FAQ which covers most of this in more detail.

--184.232.188.80 (talk) 23:40, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Forget 'blasphemy', that's irrelevant to my point - and, no, the FAQ doesn't cover this in any sort of detail. And I think you've missed the point entirely - this issue isn't about whether the images actualy look like Muhammad. Regarding Jesus, you say "They do however give us important information as to how he has been represented by a variety of different cultures in different time periods." This is NOT what the images of Muhammad in this article give us. The analogy you give of pictures of Jesus "as a Native American from some obscure American artist in the 20th Century" is actually, ironically, quite close I think to what we have here. A much more representative selection of 'images' of Muhammad would actually be his name in calligraphy, as in the infobox. DeCausa (talk) 01:01, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

images

dont you think that you should have an image of Muhammad at the top? every other biography page has one. --27.3.102.174 (talk) 09:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely. Do you have a photo you can share? Rklawton (talk) 13:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Use one of the pictures that are at the bottom of the page. --27.3.102.174 (talk) 11:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Biographical articles use an image at the top of the article when a likeness exists. In this case, no likeness exists. Rklawton (talk) 15:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

If that's true the why did you say "Absolutely. Do You have a photo you can share?" and now you come up with another stupid reason... --27.3.102.174 (talk) 09:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

It was a sarcastic was of saying "Only photos go at the top of a biography". I highly doubt you (or anyone) has a photograph of Muhammad. --King Öomie 14:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

No, we put drawings and other depictions at the top wherever we have them. In short, just about everyone who predates the age of photography. The only reason there is no such depiction at the top of this article is as a small nod to Muslims who oppose using images of Muhammad. We won't censor the article by removing all such depictions, but it was decided some time ago to editorially arrange them in this fashion. Resolute 15:15, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

'It offends people', is a weak excuse for not having a picture at the top. Check the Jesus article, that subject's got a picture at the top. GoodDay (talk) 23:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that it is (or should be) more than a "nod to Muslims". I'm increasingly coming to the view that these images are somewhat problematic and that focusing the argument on WP:NOTCENSORED (bacause of the Muslim reaction) has stunted a "normal" discussion on the images value. I posted on this in an earlier thread but that didn't really go anywhere. I'll cut and paste the main point: "It seems to me that, as a generality, there would be three reasons to chose an image: to show what the person actually looked like (not applicable); to show what they might have looked like - typical style of dress etc (not applicable to most, as Ottoman/Ilkhanid styles are shown - perhaps applies to the Russian paninting); and to show what the prevalent cultural image of that person is, eg as with Jesus (mostly not applicable - since by definition there is no cultural image in general. The images shown are representative of 2 relatively narror cultural sources)." I think the representation of Muhammad in calligraphy in the infobox actually satisfies the third justification of an "image" since that is the overwhelmingly preponderent way of representing him. There's a real discussion to be had on this but it's been drowned out by the "Islamic" v. "not censored" positions. DeCausa (talk) 09:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I've re-posted this on the main Talk pageDeCausa (talk) 11:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

And it doesn't belong there. Image discussions belong on this page, so cross posting will serve only to split the discussion unnecessarily. And sorry, but we have had a "normal" discussion on the value of the images. We have, in fact, had several that are littered throughout the archives. In fact, every single point you have raised has been discussed repeatedly, and rejected repeatedly. Resolute 16:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Firstly,no need to be so aggressive. I'm asking the question more than anything. Secondly, I posted above asking where in archives this was discussed (having looked and found only a handful of brief superficial postings on that particular aspect), and no one (including you) had the courtesy to reply. Thirdly, I don't know why you bothered to post such a message without identifying where in the archive that discussion was held - your posting was pointless. Fourthly, I don't care how many times it was discussed before, it's not been discussed lately and consensus can change. So, all in all your reply was a waste of your time to write and my time to read. DeCausa (talk) 18:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

'It might offend people', is never a good reason for any type of censurship. GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

And your point is ...? The article has images of Muhammad. There is no representative image of Muhammad in existence that would be appropriate for the top of the article, because historical images of Muhammad are rare. It makes sense for the most common pictorial representation (in this case, calligraphic) be shown at the top of the article. The fact that Muslims would be somehow less offended by showing pictures of Muhammad further down the article is really irrelevant. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

There should be an image at the top. William the Conquerer, Jesus, Pope Leo I etc etc, have theirs at the top of their respective articles. GoodDay (talk) 00:26, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't a valid argument. And this article does have an image at the top. See my previous comment. If you want an actual depiction of Muhammad there, you should offer a better reason than "other articles have it". ~Amatulić (talk) 04:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Just pointing out that "it might offend", is a poor excuse. GoodDay (talk)

05:26, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The picture at the top of any biographical article should be a symbol people use to the person with. In George Washington's case, the picture used is an accurate portrait of him. In Jesus' case, the picture is a symbolic image that is not accurate, but still relevant since it is an extremely common image of Jesus. Unlike with Jesus, there is no common image people associate Mohammed with, except for perhaps his name. At least, that calligraphy of Mohammed's name is much more recognizable than any of the relatively unknown caricatures in this article. And by the way, WP:NOTCENSORED exists so that no content is removed for the sole reason of being offensive. The purpose of that rule is to make sure information is preserved, not to deliberately offend people. Everyone already knows offensive stuff is allowed on Wikipedia; you don't need to explain that. Instead give actual reasons why changing the image to one of Mohammed would be helpful. Parthian Scribe 21:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

so you're just going to let muslims faggots not make this article better by putting an image on top because every other article has one did u see jesus? --27.3.102.174 (talk) 11:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)