Talk:Rand Paul/Archive 3

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Correct: NYT article states 'Randal" not "Randy".

Correct: NYT article states 'Randal" not "Randy". 209.255.78.138 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The word "Randy" occurs only once in the article, citing the NYT as its source: "Although Ron Paul was a fan of Ayn Rand, her name was not the inspiration for Randal Paul's first name; he went by "Randy" as a child and "Rand" as an adult.[6]" Here is what the NYT article says: "As a teenager, he studied the Austrian economists that his father revered, as well as the iconic free-market novelist and philosopher, Ayn Rand (she was not the inspiration for Rand’s name, which is short for Randal; he was called Randy growing up)." In other words, the article accurately reflects the NYT mention of "Randy". betsythedevine (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I was also interested to see this statement added to an early version of the bio: "His given name is Randy, but started going by Rand during his father's 1988 run for President as a Libertarian in order to invoke the memory of novelist Ayn Rand." It is not a reliable source, but it does support the inference that "Randy" was a longtime nickname. betsythedevine (talk) 12:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Southern Kentucky Lions Eye Clinic

The article says "Paul also founded the Southern Kentucky Lions Eye Clinic to help provide eye surgery and exams for those with no health insurance coverage," but Google turns up no mention of such a clinic except in campaign literature for Rand Paul. The Kentucky Lions website lists no clinic by that name. According to a Kentucky Lions fact sheet, in 1995 "Clinic was established in Bowling Green called the South Central Lions Eye Clinic. Dr. Rand Paul helped establish this clinic and still is a major part of this clinic." betsythedevine (talk) 13:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment, so is the basic idea that Rand Paul got the Lions to set up a clinic in his home town, so that the Lions could pay him when he treated patients who had no insurance? betsythedevine (talk) 15:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

From the Medical career section of Rand Paul , "Paul founded the Southern Kentucky Lions Eye Clinic to help provide eye surgery and exams for those with no health insurance coverage, or who are living on a minimum wage.[16][17]" I ponied up $2.95 to get access to reference #16, an article from Bowling Green News which is now behind a pay wall, and here is what it says about that clinic: "Most recently – in 1995 – the group and other Lions Clubs in the region established the Southern Kentucky Eye Clinic, which provides minor eye surgeries to adults who otherwise couldn’t afford to have the work done." Rand Paul's name is mentioned elsewhere in the article, as follows: "A few years ago, the club financed operations for two Guatemalan boys who came to this country blind and left seeing, thanks to the surgeries by Noon Lions Club member Dr. Rand Paul, who heads the Southern Kentucky Eye Clinic, Nahm said." I do not think Reference #16, which does not support the claim that Paul founded the clinic, should be used as a reference here as if it supported it. Reference #17 is an AP story from January, 2008, which unequivocally states, "He founded the Southern Kentucky Lions Eye Clinic, which provides eye surgery and exams for those who otherwise couldn't afford proper care." I am changing the text and removing the non-free "reference" #16. betsythedevine (talk) 01:05, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

How Rand Paul "gained prominence"

Instead of engaging in a revert war with the author of this statement, I would like to ask others for their opinions on the talk page. The disputed sentence placed in the article summary is:

"He has gained prominence for his independent positions on many political issues, often clashing with both Republicans and Democrats."

When this article was first created, as a separate article from Ron Paul's "Marriage and family" section, on March 21, 2009, it consisted of exactly one sentence: "Rand Paul is a Kentucky opthalmologist and son of Congressman Ronald Paul."

Now I don't know what my ophthalmologist's political views are, but I am pretty sure that he will not gain "prominence" for them no matter how extreme they are. Rand Paul gained prominence because he was the son of a famous father, a fact that has somehow disappeared from the summary of his bio. It should not be. betsythedevine (talk) 12:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

It also seems worth pointing out that Paul's independent stance seems to be a thing of the past already. LA Times, October 10 article: "Once eager to rail against politicians of both parties, Paul now focuses primarily on the one — Obama — Republicans can agree to oppose. Once eager to promote his message, Paul now avoids the national media. References to his tea party base are fewer and farther between, as are references to some of the movement's more controversial pet issues." Courier-Journal, October 3, 2010: "In his primary victory speech, Paul emphasized the tea party and almost completely ignored the GOP, but in his speech at the fundraiser he made only a glancing reference to the movement, saying many in it voice concern about their grandchildren and the national debt...Paul told me before he spoke that his speech would be the same one he had been giving recently." betsythedevine (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

MPP is a perfectly reliable source for a direct quote

Betsy, regarding your removal of the reference I added to the article: I could understand your point if I was referencing some amateur blogspot.com blogger, but we are talking about the Marijuana Policy Project. They are the largest marijuana reform organization in the United States with 19 staffers, 29,000 members, and 100,000 e-mail subscribers. They are a credible organization with a reputation to maintain and are not going to give out fake quotes from Dr. Paul. There is not even any research or opinion contained in this source that could be questioned; they are just DIRECTLY quoting Dr. Paul on an issue they are seeking to clarify his position on. Thomas6274 (talk) 21:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I will take your word for it that this particular blogger is a reliable source on this issue, accurately quoting a phone call with a staffer who works for Rand Paul. It looks to me as if your current wording fairly represents Paul's position. By the way, I not only agree with Paul that 10 - 20 year sentences are too harsh, I also agree with Conway that marijuana users should not be jailed, but if they have been acting out in such a way that they end up getting arrested, should get education and treatment, as do acting-out drinkers. betsythedevine (talk) 00:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Kaitlinpg, 10 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Marijuana What exactly does Paul believe when it comes to drugs? He wants the federal government to dramatically lower its drug enforcement profile. "Paul wants to cut federal funding for undercover drug investigations and drug treatment programs," the AP reported last week. "He said he is opposed to the legalization of marijuana, even for medicinal purposes. But he also has called drug sentences of 10 to 20 years too harsh."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/this-is-your-race-on-drugs-conway-paul-clash-over-drug-enforcement.php

Kaitlinpg (talk) 21:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be in conflict with the sourced text that is already there. It appears that one would be outdated. How do you request that the text there be written? BigK HeX (talk) 21:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

See #Medical Marijuana. His campaign has said that statement is false.mcornelius (talk) 09:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

In the news...

Don't know if it fits in the article, so I'll just post the link here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/10/10/moveon-supporter-brutally-attacked-by-rand-paul-supporter/65155/ Dylan Flaherty (talk) 13:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Shaking my head--I don't think this belongs in an article about Rand Paul, or on its talk page unlesss the stomper is Rand Paul. I am sorry for the intolerance and anger being promoted by right-wing talk show hosts around the country, but Rand Paul has not stomped anybody or urged any of his supporters to stomp anybody. I hope the link above gets removed under the WP "not-a-forum" policy. betsythedevine (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

According to one article, the incident "seems to be ballooning into a major political problem". That makes it notable. Of course, it's also notable that Paul condemned the attack.

It turns out that Tim Profitt wasn't just a "supporter" in some general sense, but rather someone who volunteered with the campaign, donated a couple of thousand dollars despite being unemployed, and was praised in Paul's newspaper ad. One article has Profitt claiming to have been protecting Paul from an attack, while this says she was there to give him a fake award.

All of this is being reported by mainstream media, so there's no question of reliable sourcing. The only issue is making sure we are neutral in reporting it here. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 00:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, if the incident is making it into mainstream media in connection, the parts of the discussion relevant to Rand Paul and his campaign could be cited here. What I have seen happen in Wikipedia for similar "events" is that an article, usually very contentiously edited, got created for the event itself (e.g. Jeff Gannon, Suicide of Megan Meier, etc.) The good thing about that is that the standalone article draws off some of the crazy that may otherwise end up focusing here on Rand Paul if we create a section in this article that is Wikipedia's only statement. Not sure if Tim Profitt would be a good name for the article...betsythedevine (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but let's start with this article. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 01:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, well, somebody who wants something here should write something here and then everybody will work on improving it until there is consensus. I look forward to seeing what you all came up with when I get up tomorrow morning. betsythedevine (talk) 02:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

This is certainly an event in the campaign and should be included in the daughter article about the campaign. The Rand Paul bio article should summarize major aspects of the campaign, because the campaign is part of Paul's life, but not everything campaign-related can go into the main Rand Paul bio. At first blush this incident doesn't seem that major. Along with proposed text, as suggested by Betsythedevine, I'd like to see some indication that this is one of the salient episodes of the campaign that merits inclusion here. (Contrary to Betsythedevine's other comment, however, inclusion doesn't depend on showing that Rand Paul did the stomping. If something a third person did ends up costing Paul a Senate seat, or even significantly weakening his chances in the election, then that's a notable event in his life, even if some Wikipedians believe that the third person's action should not have had that effect.) JamesMLane t c 08:24, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the "ballooning into a major political problem" quote satisfies your request for "some indication that this is one of the salient episodes of the campaign that merits inclusion here". Apparently, this guy just won't shut up: now he's demanding an apology. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

According to this news story, Conway is making an issue of it, and the Kentucky Demnocratic Party is running a TV ad featuring video of the stomping. At this point, therefore, I agree that it deserves mention. JamesMLane t c 12:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I now agree with you that the event is part of the news of the campaign. betsythedevine (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to avoid volunteering myself, but someone should add this to the article. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 13:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Betsy, thank you for introducing the topic into the article. It's a good start.

At this point, the open question is what else, if anything, we should mention. For example, is it important to state that the person doing the stomping was a campaign contributor and volunteer as opposed to merely a supporter? Should we go into any detail about how Conway is making an issue of it? Do we need to mention why this woman was trying to get closer to the candidate?

Our editorial decisions about these details is crucial in ensuring that the section is completely neutral. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 13:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec)This has nothing to do with Rand Paul the person. Is may be something specific to the campaign page, but not Rand Paul. I also find it a little disturbing that the POV version Betsy put into the article fails to mention that she was a Moveon.org activist and that a Conway supporter also roughed up a Paul supporter. It is bad enough to put tangental crap into BLP articles. It is even worse to present one side of the story. Arzel (talk) 13:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC) .....response--my diff did mention that the stompee was a MoveOn supporter, the roughing-up incident of opposite sign was not mentioned by the 2 sources I cited, and I did attempt to give both sides of the story. It was a short blurb created only after consensus on this page that something should go in the article. Article talk pages are not the venue for attacking other editors. betsythedevine (talk) 02:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

We all agree that Paul didn't stomp on anyone, or even approve of the stomping. And we should make sure the article does not lead anyone to such a ridiculous conclusion. However, we have reliable sources that confirm it has something to do with Paul, in that it significantly affects his campaign.

If you believe the current section is not neutral, please contribute tot he discussion above, where I raised some of these issues. For now, what we have is neutral enough to comply with BLP, although we can make it better. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 13:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

It is a long-established principle in political articles (not just at WP:USPE) that silly-season (October) news about otherwise nonnotable events that will be forgotten after the inaugurations are not suitable for biographical articles about a person's whole life, especially if the incident is only about an associate of some disputed degree of distance or closeness. If at all worthy it goes in the campaign. Dylan knows that I do report edit-warring. Please try to convince the three of us, as apparently Betsy became convinced against initial resistance, that this has nothing to do with undue weight or the closeness of the election, as WP:DUCK applies on that point as well. JJB 15:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Stomping and this article

I would urge those who believe the stomping incident and ad belong in the campaign article to add it to said article. My very short draft of a treatment did mention that the woman was a MoveOn supporter. I am sure the account could be improved. WP Blp is an official policy; the consensus of a 2008 forum on Presidential candidates does not override policy. I would think that with this story in the news you would welcome a chance to create a non-biased account of it somewhere in Wikipedia. betsythedevine (talk) 15:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, we also have WP:NOTNEWS, and we have that USPE is also called WP:12, and we have that you are saying "this is not BLP" when BLP does not bless content that is failed by other policies like WP:UNDUE. Feel free to try it at United States Senate election in Kentucky, 2010, in that the WP:BURDEN is on the inserter. It seems to me to be more news about Conway right now than Paul anyway. Maybe if you can wait until Tuesday 7 pm Eastern time at a minimum, we'll know enough about the encyclopedicity of this event to determine its relative weight. JJB 15:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue is one in the campaign, not about Rand Paul per se, and should probably be inserted at United States Senate election in Kentucky, 2010. The stomping incident has become an issue in the race, and with the polls so close, anything could determine the outcome, including this one. The sources (Washington Post and CBS news) are reliable. Bearian (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC) I've requested input at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Rand_Paul_et_al. Bearian (talk) 16:28, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I think we should follow the initiative of the article subject to an extent. We should be hesitant about pinning things to a BLP the subject doesn't think is sufficiently related without being able to provide a convincing argument for why it is related. That convincing argument could potentially be supplied by an opposing campaign, but most telling, in my view, would be a candidate who takes the initiative to substantively and notably respond as this would suggest that the candidate feels the matter is indeed sufficiently related that a notable response is needed. To date I don't believe that Paul Rand thinks this "Kentucky Stomper" business is related enough to him that he need do more than just distance himself. If, on the other extreme, the politician said absolutely nothing that might imply he did not object to having the material "pinned" to him such that that might argue for inclusion but that isn't the case here either.Brian Dell (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Removal of medicare quote

I removed the quote "have to bear more of the burden" from Paul's position on medicare. The reason Paul is saying future recipients need to "bear more of the burden" is because higher deductibles introduces price competition into the marketplace, which has the highly desirable benefit of reducing medical costs. He alludes to this in the fuller quote that was provided in the referenced article:

"You want to have more participation by the person who's receiving the entitlement," Paul replied. "By that I mean that they need to be more involved with some sort of economic transaction every time they use their entitlement, and that means they have to bear more of the burden."

The "have to bear more of the burden" quote is a cherry-picked quote that makes it sound like Paul has some kind of vendetta against senior citizens who aren't paying their fair share. This is a very misleading portrayal. This insignificant and out-of-context quote should be left out. Thomas6274 (talk) 21:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

If you think the quotation is cherry-picked, the solution is to include whatever additional quotation you think is needed to put the (admittedly correct verbatim) quotation in context. The solution is not the attempt to suppress this information entirely. It's hardly insignificant to report Paul's own words about a major public issue. As for your other edit, it's POV to change what Paul "recently said" to what he "clarified" -- the latter implies that this is what he meant all along, which may or may not be true but is a Paul supporter's spin and is not an objective report. What we know is that this is what he recently said. We shouldn't opine that it was a mere clarification any more than we should say "he recently changed his position to state" something. JamesMLane t c 11:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I restored the information including the full quote suggested by Thomas above. betsythedevine (talk) 13:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Politico article/quote from college activities section

I don't think the Politico article and the "smoked pot, made fun of Baptists" quote should be included in the article. The original GQ article generated a large amount of news coverage, but the Politico article was basically a rehashing of the GQ article with a few new quotes from some guy claiming to know Paul and some excerpts from the group's newsletter, and did not generate anywhere near the amount of news coverage that the GQ story did. Also I think it is particularly unneccessary to include some defamatory quote from this guy claiming to know Dr. Paul. He is just one person making this claim, and this particular quote did not receive much attention as part of this whole controversy. It is not necessary to go that much into detail on non-essential aspects of this controversy. The essential aspects of the controversy are: Rand Paul belonged to a mysterious college group that sometimes made light of the strict atmosphere of piety on campus, Rand Paul allegely was involved with some strange hijinks with some unknown woman, and Jack Conway ran a TV ad about it all. The "smoked pot, made fun of people" quote is extraneous, otherwise isn't that an example of recentism as recently claimed on the Jack Conway talk page? Thomas6274 (talk) 15:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The Politico follow-up is relevant and multiply cited. The source of the quote is a person who gave his name; considering the emphasis pro-Paulites have put on the anonymity of the woman who made the first report, I think this is also a strong support for inclusion. Please do not make major changes to this article or to Jack Conway before getting consensus on the talk page that your wishes are in accord with WP:NPOV. It is inappropriate and unworthy of Wikipedia to target candidate articles in the days leading up to election for major changes. The Politico article emphasized the group's mocking Christianity more than had the GQ piece, including links to articles such as "Rapture, still here?" and "I was a teenage savior." Claiming that this group simply mocked Baylor's administration but not Christianity is POV and untrue, unless there is some secret anti-admin coding underlying the teenage savior article e.g. "Last week when my parents lost me in the Temple, a blabbermouthed Sadducee tole me my real dad's some guy named Yahweh. Then he told me that yahweh was dead, but later I learned that he's just detached and uncaring...Actually, I'm lucky. Most guys named Jesus don't even know who their father is." betsythedevine (talk) 21:11, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

If truly defamatory then the whole section should go as the "Aqua Buddha" claim isn't any better supported than the smoking pot claim. If the information is not worth much readers can come to that conclusion on their own. The sourcing is not represented as being stronger than it is.Brian Dell (talk) 05:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)