Talk:The Beatles

the or The?

One of several sources from the UK Intellectural Property Office which state that "The Beatles" is a registered trade mark of Apple Corps Ltd is at [2] Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

As I've been reverted for following what is on this page, which is it then? The statement at the top of this page or [[[3]]] Bevo74 (talk) 05:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I would guess this is Y it was reverted as per most recent talk and other previous talks on the subject that seem to have decied on the "The" format. That said you are free to bring up the matter again.Moxy (talk) 06:15, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

It's definitely 'The'. PL290 is trying to sneak 'the' through the back door, but after literally months of discussing, arguing, and shouting about this, the decision was made. End of.--andreasegde (talk) 06:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

As Yogi Berra would say - this is deja vu all over again. And I agree, we're not going there again. Tvoz/talk 06:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

[outdent] But Andreasegde's statement "It's definitely 'The'" is at odds to the statement at the top of this page: "Consensus has been reached to use 'the Beatles' instead of 'The Beatles' in running prose" — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 08:17, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

That statement at the top of the page used to be the other way round, ie "Consensus has been reached to use 'The Beatles' instead of 'the Beatles.'" It was altered by PL290 after a discussion involving only me and him (see here). Notice that he never said that he did it, either on the talk page or in the edit summary. Was that discussion enough to overturn what had previously been agreed upon? I think not.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I returned the text above to the way it had been, and where it should stay unless and until there is true consensus for the lower case "the". Consensus can change, but not this way. Tvoz/talk 16:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting that. Bevo74 (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank whichever God you prefer for that.--andreasegde (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

[4] The Beatles' trademark document, which says, "signed by all four members of The Beatles, and dated November 23, 1964, in the City of London. It authorizes "The Beatles" name to be registered and used by the group in the U.S., and is attached and bound along with a title page and sworn statement from the notary public who witnessed the signing. The document reads (in part): "1. We carry on business jointly as entertainers under the group name of 'The Beatles'. " Therefore, the use of 'The' must be used as it is part of a trademark. Definitely the end of.--andreasegde (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm agnostic on this religious battle - perhaps even leaning towards the 'T' - but if the "legal" name is what we "must" use, then its John, Paul, George and Richard. Its not that black and white. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 16:52, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The MOS seems clear enough: it should be 'the'. If the consensus is that, for some reason, the MOS does not apply to this subject, then please can we have that reason recorded in the statement at the top of the page; otherwise, the MOS should prevail. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The MoS is a guide. Talks are underway to have it changed, which is what Wikipedia is all about.--andreasegde (talk) 21:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I've added the legal reason on the top of this talk page. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The trademark argument is spurious: WP is not involved in trade.—Wrapped in Grey (talk) 04:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You should look at the Trademark page. It's very clearly stated.--andreasegde (talk) 04:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

No, I shall look at the MOS which states specifically how to deal with band names, almost all of which will be trademarked. By all means, have the MOS changed but until then, and with no clear consensus here, you are jumping the gun. —Wrapped in Grey (talk) 09:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Remember the ABN AMRO debacle? That article's talk page is still much longer than the article itself due to the MoS dispute. ABN AMRO in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS is not only a registered trade mark, it is also the LEGAL NAME of the financial institution. The MoS (censored) insisted on "ABN Amro" as the article's name. Steelbeard1 (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

oh hey, didn't realize that discussion regarding this was happening here as well. I would like to invite all interested parties to take this discussion to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(music), as per this WP:Consensus RfC decision which comes to the conclusion: Conflict between guidelines are best resolved through discussion, and the guidelines updated as appropriate.. It seems most of us are unclear as to current consensus of preferred capitalization, and our ultimate goal should be to codify eventual consensus into a clear guidelines, whatever the result may be. Thank you, riffic (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Good. It was difficult bouncing around three pages. The page for discussion is here: [5]--andreasegde (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Folks, this is becoming a leetle bit silly :). Most Beatles editors are perfectly happy to comply with Wikipedia's Manual of Style on this point. This was shown about four months ago when there was clear acquiescence with this edit in the discussion specifically addressing the question. It was then demonstrated again—a month later—in this edit by User:Rodhullandemu, an admin with keen oversight of Beatles articles, who stated, "Consensus is for lower-case "the", per Talk page" in his edit summary. This page has over a thousand watchers: these and other related edits were accepted without demur. I am a bit busy in real life at the moment, so can't watch this discussion too closely, but having taken this article to Featured status I would prefer to see it comply with the MoS. I hope others will begin to voice their (previously silent) support—after all, complying with Wikepeda guidelines is something editors are generally expected to attempt to do. PL290 (talk) 07:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no evidence that this article/band is a special case. The statement at the top of the page should be removed and the MoS should be followed. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 08:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:MoS is not policy, WP:CONSENSUS is. There is a consensus (very strongly among those who maintain the MoS page, especially) that MoS should be followed, except where there are exceptions - which is accepts. The Beatles related articles is one of those exceptions, where the case in respect of the band has been argued repeatedly and consensus has followed that the t/The is preferred. A consensus at a guideline does not over-ride the consensus within an article or group of articles, where the specifics have been previously evaluated. I personally think the case made for use of the lower case "t" is sound, but in performing my responsibilities as a sysop I will act to ensure that the subject specific consensus is upheld. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The statement at the top of this page makes no reference to a discussion at which consensus was reached and (like the arguments presented in recent discussions) is not justified (as advised by the MoS that exceptions should be) in terms of the article sources. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

So where are we with consensus? The Mos/music, and MoS discussions seem to have both decided on "the" in running text. This discussion seems more or less balanced (I throw in that the trademark MoS says "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules" - since that seems to have been a red herring). So what now? Rich Farmbrough, 21:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC).

It appears to be stalemated. There is no doubt that the consensus at MoS is for the use of the lowercase t, but MoS is still yet a guideline - on these pages the historical consensus is for the capitalised T, per the very many discussions, and while there is some very good case made for the change it has not yet achieved consensus on these pages. Therefore, the status quo remains for the existing consensus for the letter to remain capitalised. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

No one has been able to identify the arguments by which the old consensus deemed this subject to be an exception to the MoS; hence, counter-arguments cannot be made and we are ruled over by the old consensus for evermore. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I think we can safely assume the old consensus to have lapsed. Maybe there was no particluar reason for it (other than for internal consistency) but it was made at a time before the MoS was clear on this issue. The reason given at the top of the page (which was added after the fact) does not justify it: as seen on the "1" album booklet, "Beatles" is trade-marked. Lower-case "the" is used by sources and even on the front page of the Beatles' own web-site. Time to do the right thing, folks. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Surely the original argument was not about style but about the name of the band, as a verifiable fact from reliable sources. Irrespective of what the style guide says, verifiable fact takes precedence over style. For example The Times newspaper always has a capitalised 'The' because that is the official name of the newspaper: style doesn't come into it. The last time this was discussed, with respect to The Beatles, albeit a long time ago, the consensus was that reliable sources favoured the capitalisation of "The". I don't know whether that previous debate was flawed in some way, or whether there are better sources available now, but I think there is more to it than an issue of style. Personally I'd favour sticking with the status quo, which at least has a consensus, rather than either making a change on the dubious grounds of style or indeed reopening the whole debate which is not really that important anyway. Bluewave (talk) 09:59, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

But this issue is entirely about style; no one is going to argue that the name of the band is "the Beatles". MoS style says using "the" in running prose; so does MoS (music) and whilst not explicitly excluding it, MoS (music) does not even mention the possibility of exception (on a per band basis). No one is going to argue against a sound reason for the exception, but what is the reason? For example, if there is a table that categorises the list, on the Beatles Project page, of reference books as favoring one style or the other, where is that table? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Consensus has not changed at all. Occasionally, a newbie who does not know better would try to muddy up the waters. But that person would soon be taught a lesson. Steelbeard1 (talk) 11:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The waters are muddy because no one can see the evidence. If it exists, let's put the evidence on the table and see if it stands up today as it did then. If it does, great; place a link to this discussion in the statement at the top of the page, and we're done. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The evidence has been posted as a linked citation twice at the top of this page and the top of this discussion. Again, it's [6] Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I notice that both "BEATLES" and "THE BEATLES" are trademarked, and that the mark includes stylized text, i.e., all caps. Strictly following the trademark would require using the BEATLES or THE BEATLES in the article (which I'm not suggesting). Besides, MoS:TM states "follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'" and MoS:MUSIC says "the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose." Piriczki (talk) 15:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The UK Intellectural Property office lists eBay as "EBAY" at [7] so ALL CAPS argument does not hold water. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

It's also listed as "ebay" [8], not that it has anything to do with this article. I was referring to the stylized text, not the mark text. Piriczki (talk) 16:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The above citation shows eBay's logo which is rendered in all lower case letters as well as the word mark rendered as "ebay" in all lower case letters. Again, the prevailing rendering on Wikipedia is "eBay" despite it not being rendered like that in government trade mark databases. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Where is it written in Wikipedia policy that our article text is governed by The UK Intellectural Property office? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

This is an article about a British subject. That's why we use British spellings. Citations can come from global sources, but because this is a British article, the UK Intellectural Property office is the primary source for trade marks. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

For spelling, MOS:TIES is our guide. For trademarks, MOS:TM is our guide and as Piriczki pointed out above, it advises “follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'”; in other words, WP style overrides trademark style. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

But they are still guidelines in which consensus is the overriding factor. Remember the ABN AMRO debacle? The talk page is still longer than the article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Consensus per se does not override guidelines. A given reason may override guidelines, and the consensus may be that a proffered reason is good enough to do so. What is/was the proffered reason in this case? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 08:18, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe that capitalisation is important to trademarks. If "The Beatles" is trademarked, than no one else can use that name, no matter how they capitalise it. Whether or not to capitalise "the" is irrelevant to "The Beatles" being a trademark. If Apple Corps do not capitalise "the Beatles" then they clearly don't care about the trademark style. McLerristarr | Mclay1 11:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

You are right that no one else can use that name which is why the tribute band called "1964... The Tribute" has to avoid any mention of The Beatles, Beatle or Beatles because of legal troubles with Apple Corps. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that the source given in the first comment in this thread shows the trademark status of the Beatles' logos, not their name. McLerristarr | Mclay1 11:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

No, the trade marks, if you bother to read the source, applies to both the marks and the texts of the marks. So the trade marks are for both the words and the logos. Also, read the copyright notice on the bottom of The Beatles' Rock Band video game page at [9]. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Clearly, I did read the source or I wouldn't know what it was about. I assumed that the text underneath the logos was just clarifying what the logos read. If it was saying that that text was trademarked, why did they twice list the same text twice? McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

We've established above that MOS:TM trumps logos/trademarks. WP:COMMONSENSE could trump MOS:TM but only if there is a good reason as to why the MoS does not apply (apparently only) for this band. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Once again, these are guidelines and prevailing consensus, as noted by the three or so links to previous lengthy discussions on this very topic on the top of this section, is that the band be referred to as "The Beatles" which, as the above link to The Beatles' Rockband page clearly states, is a trademark of Apple Corps. Ltd. Steelbeard1 (talk) 17:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

So,

• The MOS, chosen to reflect best practice and to promote consistency within WP, is clear.
• MOS:MUSIC, ditto, is clear.
• MOS:TM is clear.
• Per WP:CCC, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales.
• No objection has been raised that is not invalidated by one or more of the above guidelines and policy.

Proposal For the reasons immediately above, this band's name should not be considered an exception to MOS:MUSIC#Names (definite article). — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree that this is just about style. It is about what is the verifiable name of the band. I don't know the answer to that question but I'm sure it can be answered. A style guide won't tell us the answer though. Bluewave (talk) 22:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

MOS music covers both of these aspects. The proposal is that this band should not be an exception to either aspect. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

A Wikipedia style guide can't possibly tell us whether the capitalised 'T' is formally part of a particular band's name, can it? Or, if it does, it would need to provide the necessary citations to verify this. Some proper names have the definite article as part of the name and capitalise the first letter; some don't. For example, The Times newspaper and The Hague (the city in the Netherlands) do so. No amount of style guides can change that. So the question should be whether The Beatles are in this same category as The Times and The Hague. Bluewave (talk) 22:25, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Whilst the MOS makes it clear that there can be exceptions to the general rule for capitalization, MOS music makes it clear that band names are not one of them (MOS music also notes that the definite article should not be omitted when, as in this case, it is officially part of the band's name). The Beatles’ own web-site exhibits the general capitalization rule (“the Beatles”) on its front page. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 06:14, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The example given in the official Beatles web site at [10] is inconsistent: >>Fans can also get a special digital "Beatles Box Set" featuring the "Live at the Washington Coliseum, 1964" concert film, a worldwide iTunes exclusive which captures the Beatles' very first US concert. Visit The Beatles iTunes homepage here: http://www.itunes.com/thebeatles<< So it looks as if someone at Apple did not proofread the text. Steelbeard1 (talk) 11:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

This just means that they probably don't care either way, or that their MOS is different to our MOS. Even if they did care, it wouldn't matter; MOS:TM makes it clear that we do not follow trademark capitalization idiosyncrasies; MOS:MUSIC makes it clear how we handle the definite article in band names. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The MOS promotes clarity through consistency. “After the Rolling Stones joined The Beatles in the charts, the door was open for acts such as the Animals and the Who” is clearly inconsistent and for no reason. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:38, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how your example is not clear. Surely it clearly shows us the correct names for two bands. It's just like saying "after I visit to the City of London, I went on to The Hague and Los Angeles". Or, indeed, "after reading The Times, I also read the Telegraph and the Daily Mail". Bluewave (talk) 13:11, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

It shows the names of four bands: "The Rolling Stones", "The Beatles", "The Animals", and "The Who". Three of them are formatted for running text per MOS:MUSIC (the specific section of the MOS that addresses this subject matter); one is not. The result is inconsistency, inconsistency which will cause the reader to wonder why it is inconsistent. Confusing the reader is rarely considered beneficial in writing. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 13:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Surely they are different because those bands use different capitalisation as part of their names. I am sure readers are not plunged into confusion quite so easily as you suggest. How about "as well as the Rolling Stones and The Beatles, there have been bands such as The Hollies, INXS and Tír na nÓg". If the capitalisation is part of a band's name, we should use it correctly, just like we do with The Times, The Hague and Los Angeles. This is not just about style. Bluewave (talk) 14:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The proposal most certainly is about style: it as exclusively about adhering to MOS:MUSIC, which is a style guide. MOS:MUSIC tells us specifically and clearly how to format in running text, the name of bands whose name begins with the definite article. This includes all four band names in the previous example; INXS and Tír na nÓg do not begin with the definite article and so are out-of-scope of this proposal. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

To further clarify, MOS:MUSIC trumps the general MOS (though in this case, it is not overriding it in any way, merely confirming that band names follow the general rule). If you want to change MOS:MUSIC, please go ahead and do so. I don't care what style is chosen, only that having chosen a style, we follow it. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 15:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

If I accepted your assertion that this was just a matter of style, I might, as you suggest, seek to change MOS:MUSIC (or, indeed, I might simply go along with whatever it says). However I'm sure it is clear from my contributions to this discussion that I don't accept that this is just an issue of style, so changing the style guide would be a bit pointless. Bluewave (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, MOS:MUSIC can be trumped (but not by MOS). Which policy or guideline do think is being flouted by writing “... the Rolling Stones and the Beatles ...”? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 18:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Whichever ever one says that to change an existing consensus, you need to establish a new consensus. Bluewave (talk) 09:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

That would be WP:CONSENSUS, the same policy that advises that “"according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales” for rejecting a new proposal. So it seems that the rationale for the proposal (i.e. the bullet points above) is still sound. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 10:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and that paragraph goes on to say "...editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits, and determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed". I respectfully suggest that you need to "determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed". Bluewave (talk) 10:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

That's the point of the proposal. If no one can present a valid argument against the bullet points above, it can be concluded that consensus has changed. So far, no one has; let's wait just a little longer before concluding though. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 10:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

No-one except Steelbeard and me. Bluewave (talk) 13:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

There are no exceptions—any one may present a valid argument. Remember that the trademark argument was invalidated by MOS:TM, and the “we already have a consensus” argument was invalidated by WP:CCC. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 14:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

It may be your opinion that both Steelbeard's and my arguments are invalid, but that does not make it so. I'll leave Steelbeard to say whether he accepts your dismissal of his argument or not. For my part, I have evidently failed to make clear my argument against your proposal, so let me state it one more time:

• There is an existing consensus that the band's name is "The Beatles". Consensus can of course change, but only by establishing a new consensus.
• The previous consensus, as I understand it, was based on researching reliable sources and was not arrived at simply based on people's style preferences. The argument was that the band's name is actually "The Beatles" and that an encyclopaedic article needs to recognise that.
• The argument put forward for a change to the status quo is entirely based on considerations of style. However, nowhere in the style guide does it say that style takes priority over reliably sourced fact.
• In other cases where bands have unusual capitalisation, Wikipedia uses the same capitalisation as given in reliable sources and does not try change it for reasons of style (INXS and Tír na nÓg (band) are examples).
• More specifically, in the case of other bands that capitalise the definite article (as determined from reliable sources), Wikipedia follows the practice of these sources (The Hollies and The The are two examples that I found without looking very hard). This does not seem very different from other proper names that include a capitalised definite article (The Times newspaper and The Hague being examples.
• People should not find the unusual capitalisation to be confusing. In fact it provides them with valuable information that this particular band' name uses distinctive capitalisation.
• If anyone wants to establish a new consensus, I believe they need to go back to reliable sources and establish that there is no firm basis for saying that the band's name is "The Beatles". Perhaps the previous consensus was mistaken on this point or perhaps reliable sources have changed.
• Going back and rebuilding the cases for and against, based on reliable sources, is a lot of work for very little, if any, benefit, so I would vote for sticking with the current consensus. Bluewave (talk) 14:45, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

One-to-one comments on each of the above 8 bullet points:

1. The proposal does question that the name of the band is "The Beatles". It recognises that the name of the band is "The Beatles", and thus the applicability of ‘MOS:MUSIC Names (definite article)’ to that name.
2. The current MOS does recognise the band's name: it notes the difference between names such as "The Velvet Underground" (with the definite article) and Black Sabbath (without it) and instructs on how to handle this difference.
3. MOS:MUSIC gives no hint of the possibility of exception to its chosen style preference. A very oddly named band (just "The" for example) might warrant exception according to WP:COMMONSENSE, however "The Beatles" is not at all odd; it follows a standard naming pattern used by countless other bands.
4. These bands are clearly not subject to the "Names (definite article)" section of MOS:MUSIC (which is all this proposal is concerned with).
5. The proposal is that there is no good reason for this band to be an exception to the MOS; it does not propose that there can never be an exception to the MOS (i.e. arguments on whether other bands should or shouldn't be exceptions are out-of-scope of the proposal).
6. "The Beatles" does not exhibit unusual capitalisation; it exhibits the same capitalisation pattern as countless other bands.
7. No one is suggesting that the band's name is not "The Beatles". MOS:MUSIC music tells us to “determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name” (in this case, yes), and if so, “it must be included” (no one is suggesting that it shouldn't).
8. The old consensus evaluated the (implied) style-guides of RSs. Seeing as our own MOSs didn't cover this particular usage aspect at the time, this made some sort of sense; now that we have a MOS that clearly covers this, it no longer makes sense to look at other style-guides (unless we think that the MOSs need to be changed).

In summary, the old consensus was justified by lack of guideline at that time; the current proposal is justified by the current policies and guidelines. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, Wrapped in Grey has made a proposal; I have said why I disagree with it; Wrapped in Grey has has disagreed with my disagreement. I don't think we are going to reach a consensus between us. What are other people's views? Bluewave (talk) 10:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

It is clear that there is no consensus so the status quo should prevail. The band is called "The Beatles." Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

the or The? (re-stated proposal)

It seems that there is some confusion as to what is being proposed, with some editors believing the statement “the band’s name is The Beatles” to be a counter-argument to the proposal (in fact, the statement is a premise of the proposal), so I’ll try to re-present the argument more clearly.

Premises:

1. The band’s name is The Beatles.
2. The band’s name is not subject to any unusual capitalisation rules. (Were it otherwise, there would be WP:RSs commenting on the fact).
3. The band’s name is used in Wikipedia music articles.
4. MOS:MUSIC is “the Manual of Style, a style guide, for Wikipedia music articles”.
5. MOS:MUSIC#Names (definite article) instructs that, for band names starting with the definite article, “Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word "the" should in general not be capitalized” (and provides for exception, only on a usage basis, not a band basis).

Conclusion:

• When the name The Beatles is used in Wikipedia music articles, the word the should not be capitalized mid sentence (excepting the specific constructs detailed in MOS:MUSIC).

Proposal:

• Follow the MOS (per the above conclusion).

Notes:

1. The benefit in accepting the proposal is, per the MOS, more “consistent usage and formatting”, throughout music articles and Wikipedia as a whole.
2. Per WP:CCC, “editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits”, not “on what influenced a past consensus”.

Wrapped in Grey (talk) 18:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

OK then, let me also restate the case against the proposal....

• There is an existing consensus that the band's name is "The Beatles" and that is how it is stated in reliable sources, even mid-sentence. Consensus can of course change, but only by establishing a new consensus.
• The previous consensus, as I understand it, was based on researching reliable sources and was not arrived at simply based on people's style preferences. The argument was that the band's name is actually "The Beatles" (including the capitalisation) and that an encyclopaedic article needs to recognise that.
• The argument put forward for a change to the status quo is entirely based on considerations of style. However, nowhere in the style guide does it say that style takes priority over reliably sourced fact.
• In other cases where bands have unusual capitalisation, Wikipedia uses the same capitalisation as given in reliable sources and does not try change it for reasons of style (INXS and Tír na nÓg (band) are examples).
• More specifically, in the case of other bands that capitalise the definite article (as determined from reliable sources), Wikipedia follows the practice of these sources (The Hollies and The The are two examples that I found without looking very hard). This does not seem very different from other proper names that include a capitalised definite article (The Times newspaper and The Hague being examples.
• People should not find the unusual capitalisation to be confusing. In fact it provides them with valuable information that this particular band' name uses distinctive capitalisation.
• If anyone wants to establish a new consensus, I believe they need to go back to reliable sources and establish that there is no firm basis for saying that the band's name is "The Beatles". Perhaps the previous consensus was mistaken on this point or perhaps reliable sources have changed.
• Going back and rebuilding the cases for and against, based on reliable sources, is a lot of work for very little, if any, benefit, so I would vote for sticking with the current consensus. Bluewave (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

• Per WP:CCC, “editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits”. Presenting an alternative set of premises does not constitute an argument against the proposal (it might represent a proposal to change the current guidelines but that of course would be an argument for elsewhere). If you want to argue against the proposal then you need to show either that one of the numbered premises is false, or that incorrect logic has been applied in combining the premises to form the conclusion. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Prolonging the discussion between the two of us is only going to confirm what we already know: that Wrapped in Grey and Bluewave do not agree with each other. We've had a view from Steelbeard, but let's get some views from others. Bluewave (talk) 09:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Arguing to not change something because of a previous consensus is not productive. The entire point of this discussion is to see what the current consensus is. Do not speak for everyone else by telling us what the consensus is. Reliable sources sometimes capitalise "the" in "The Beatles" mid-sentence and sometimes do not. Sources are reliable for different things. Rolling Stone may be reliable for information about music but it is not reliable for grammar. The Times is always capitalised mid-sentence because it is a title. The titles of books, films etc. are always capitalised. Bands do not have titles. "The Beatles" is the name of a group in the same way that "The Netherlands" is the name of a country. We should not capitalise definite articles mid-sentence unless part of a title. The "the" in "The Beatles" should not be capitalised mid-sentence in the same way as it is not in "The Netherlands". McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support the proposal per my argument above. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose because The Beatles is the band's official legal name as well as a registered trade mark. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 85.30.164.81, 11 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change "The Beatles were" to "The Beatles was" (in the very first sentence).

85.30.164.81 (talk) 15:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

No. The Beatles were multiple people, so referring to them as multiple people is correct, at least in British English. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:41, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Number of Grammy Awards

The Beatles have won twelve Grammy Awards. I understand that only seven were awarded during the existence of the band, but nevertheless in the third paragraph it may be significant to mention the other five awards. After all, Grammy awards should not be something to be made light of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.244.94.123 (talk) 22:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Just checked the source on GRAMMY.com, which only has seven awards lists. Which awards are missing from the official Grammy Award web site, and what's the source? GoingBatty (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Are you counting Grammy Awards that George Martin won for his work with The Beatles? GoingBatty (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

On the page entitled List of awards and nominations received by The Beatles, it says "The Grammy Awards are awarded annually by the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences in the United States. The Beatles received 12 awards (along with 1 honorary award) out of 25 nominations." I am simply mentioning that Wikipedia is contradicting itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.58.201 (talk) 23:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

You're right - there's a contradiction. Should Grammy Awards given to George Martin (and others) for their work with The Beatles count as "Awards received by The Beatles"? (Surely if there can be debate over "the" vs. "The", there can be someone with good arguments for or against, right?) GoingBatty (talk) 23:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Although George Martin and others received the awards, some of the awards that the Beatles received after their break-up, are designed to also honor the artist involved. For example the Grammy Award for the Best Video, Short Form is presented to "performers, directors, and producers." Thus, the Beatles deserve to be credited for that Award. The page should be changed to mention that The Beatles' music resulted in the winning of twelve Grammy Awards, and 1 honorary award. Most of the information I used to create that statement was from other Wikipedia articles. If you can, please make changes that you deem appropriate or let's hope that an administrator recognizes this predicament. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.58.201 (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Your logic and wording sounds reasonable. Now all we need is a source. We don't need an administrator to make the edit - the article is only semi-protected. GoingBatty (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I'm new to Wikipedia and did not quite understand the protected articles concept. Well, I will look into finding a legitimate source. Maybe the edit is not necessary. I believe that only 7 of the awards were designed to be honored to the Beatles and coincidentally only 7 awards for the Beatles music was awarded in their existence. This may have led to my confusion and therefore the edit may not be required. However, Wikipedia is still contradicting itself, and one or both of the articles must be edited so that more detail is provided about the specifics of The Beatles' awards, and who they were presented too. Like I said, I will do research, and make a more adequate judgment of the need for the edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.58.201 (talk) 04:24, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi. [[11]]

The Beatles' Grammy Awards

1. 1964, Best New Artist--The Beatles
2. 1964, Best Performance By A Vocal Group --The Beatles (George Martin, producer) , "A Hard Day's Night"
3. 1966, Best Contemporary Pop Vocal Performance, Male--Paul McCartney, "Eleanor Rigby"
4. 1966, Best Album Cover/Package-- The Beatles (Klaus Voorman, graphic artist), "Revolver"
5. 1966, Song Of The Year-- The Beatles (John Lennon, Paul McCartney, composers), "Michelle"
6. 1967, Album Of The Year-- The Beatles (George Martin, producer), "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"
7. 1967, Best Contemporary (R&R) Album-- The Beatles (George Martin, producer), "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"
8. 1967, Best Album Cover-- The Beatles (Peter Blake, John Haworth, art directors), "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"
9. 1967, Best Engineered (Non-Classical) Recording--The Beatles (Geoff Emerick, engineer) , "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"
10. 1969, Best Engineered (Non-Classical) Recording--The Beatles (Geoff Emerick, engineer), "Abbey Road"
11. 1970, Best Original Score Written For A Motion Picture Or TV Special--The Beatles, "Let It Be"

1. 1975, Hall Of Fame--The Beatles

National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences Grammy Hall of Fame (The Recording Academy Hall of Fame Awards consists of early recordings considered of lasting, qualitative or historical significance. )

1. 1993, The Beatles, "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" (album)
2. 1995, The Beatles, "Abbey Road"
3. 1997, The Beatles, "Yesterday"
4. 1998, The Beatles, "I Want To Hold Your Hand"
5. 1999, The Beatles, "Revolver,"; The Beatles, "Strawberry Fields Forever," John Lennon, "Imagine" (song).
6. 2000, The Beatles, "Rubber Soul,"; The Beatles, "A Hard Day's Night" (album); The Beatles, "The Beatles (White Album)."
7. 2001, The Beatles, "Hey Jude,"; The Beatles, "Meet the Beatles" (album) (also Joe Cocker's cover of "With a Little Help From My Friends")
8. 2002, The Beatles, "Eleanor Rigby"
9. 2004, The Beatles, "Let It Be"
10. 2008, The Beatles, "Help!" (the single)

National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences Trustee Award

1972 -- The Beatles

Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame

1. 1988 -- The Beatles

National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences Presidents' Award

1. 2004 -- The Beatles

The Beatles' Academy Awards

1. 1970, Best Original Song Score -- "Let It Be" (also nominated: "Scrooge," "The Baby Maker," "A Boy Named Charlie Brown," "Darling Lili")

I only counted for the band (The Beatles)...but not the grand total (The Beatles + solo career) (Note: The Beatles won a lot of other awards outside USA) (Note: I have not counted how Paul McCartney won awards, but it must be a incredible number)

--Roujan (talk) 14:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Kshetty49, 29 January 2011

The reference to sexual advances by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is unfounded. It must have been initiated by people with their own agenda, or someone who is anti-Hinduism. I am not connected with Maharishi foundation or any of his disciples in any way, but, based on my knowledge of yogis of his caliber, the sexual allegations are not credible. Often such allegations are made by non-Hindus. Please see reference to NY Times article below.

The New York Times reported in 2008 that Harrison and McCartney reconsidered the accusations. McCartney said that the rumors of sexual impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas who "had agendas of his own, and may have fabricated (or at least exaggerated) the story".[81] In a press conference on April 3, 2009, prior to his performance at the David Lynch Foundation benefit concert "Change Begins Within", Paul McCartney commented that Transcendental Meditation was a gift The Beatles had received from Maharishi at a time when they were looking for something to stabilise them.[89] Harrison commented, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done — but nothing did".[90] Farrow's autobiography is ambiguous about the incident: she describes "panicking" and fleeing after the Maharishi put his arms around her in a dark cave, immediately after a private meditation session.[91] Deepak Chopra, who met and became a "disciple of the Maharishi's" in the 1990s before later splitting, said in 2008 that the Maharishi had a "falling out with the rock stars when he discovered them using drugs".[80][92][93] In their obituaries of the Maharishi, Rolling Stone and Bloomberg news service stated that the rumour of impropriety was "unfounded" and never proven.[4][94][95] Yoko Ono said in 2008 that if Lennon were alive he probably would have reconciled with the Maharishi.[94]"

Please consider editing the Wikipedia content on the Beatles. Not to do so would be a great disservice to a holy teacher like Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Thank you. Krish

Kshetty49 (talk) 19:31, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks like the information you copied and pasted has lots of references. Could you please share your source so we could copy some of the references? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 20:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Although it is not our agenda to paint people in any particular light, the text could be amended if you were to provide actual sources rather than just your opinion and some copied text (which looks like it's from a wiki). However, the allegations of sexual advances, whether true or not, are an important part of why The Beatles left India and references to that fact will not be completely removed. Please refrain from making comments about the integrity of allegations made by people not of your religion. McLerristarr | Mclay1 14:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: Given the two statements above, I'm going to refrain from performing this edit until references are clearly stated. When they are present, feel free to readd the edit request banner and someone will come along to help. elektrikSHOOS 23:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks like the copypaste is from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi#Interaction with The Beatles. The New York Times article is by Allan Kozinn from 2008, and has an editors' note from 2010. Looks like that's enough to consider making a change, so I've readded the request banner. GoingBatty (talk) 00:15, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Beatles Music

Here is a very interesting link about the music of The Beatles: Not on the hair of The Beatles, not on Lsd, not on Yoko Ono, not on Brian Epstein, not on George Martin, not on the dead of Paul McCartney in 1966. NO, a link on the Beatles Music. The Beatles were first and foremost musicians and composers. And like composers, they were unique. Very unique. And that is exactly what we can discover on this fantastic, fabulous link. [[12]]

<In 1989 the American musicologist Alan W. Pollack started to analyze the songs of the Beatles. He published his first results on internet. In 1991 — after he had finished the work on 28 songs — he bravely decided to do the whole lot of them. About ten years later, in 2000 he completed the analysis of the official Beatles' canon, consisting of 187 songs and 25 covers. Here we have ordered this massive work in five categories. And, for your convenience, we've added an alphabetical, a canonical and a chronological index as well as a short introduction.>

Obviously, every phrase, every word is interesting, but here are some excerpts. And I think that these extracts should be incorporated into the main article, because-and I repeat that this relates to the music of the Beatles and especially some of the most important features of their music.

On the Chapter <dossiers> clic on <Beatles' studies> and after clic on <Words and chords> and you will obtain this page: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME03/Words_and_chords.shtml

It's an article by Ger J. Tilleken. (Born In 1949 Studied Sociology At Leiden University, And Is Now Working At Groningen University In The Netherlands)

Extract : <As Kramarz (1983) observes, the use of incidental chords in popular music is not new in itself. The unusual amount of these chords, however, certainly is innovative, as are the chord sequences themselves.>

And this is one reason why Nick Stone wrote this. (on this link http://www.learningmusician.com/features/0207/AlanPollack/ ) (Nick Stone was born in Wiesbaden, Germany and raised in various American army bases and suburbs. He is currently an independent scholar and musician living in the San Francisco Bay Area)

Extract : < The band itself had a love-hate relationship with previously established harmonic rules and conventions of composing, and Pollack's work highlights the specific harmonic and melodic idiosyncrasies that make their work unique and groundbreaking.>

Well, if you read carefully these articles, you will find lots of great information. Probably because all these guys who wrote these articles are musicians but also they are very serious.

--Roujan (talk) 16:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)