Talk:Human

Main Article Image

An easy step towards decreasing the controversy surrounding the picture AND greatly increasing its educational value is to use a picture of a woman and man without clothes. An image of the musculature of the human body would allow the reader to observe and study the most basic (fundamental, evolutionarily defined, etc.) aspects of humans. To a debatable extent, clothes are cultural constructs, and while distracting cultural allusions are, in my opinion, unavoidable (such as: what is the ethnicity of these two imaginary naked humans i recently suggested?), the avoidance of cultural constructs can always be improved. Here, I propose that a change to a clothesless image would remove an avoidable cultural allusion from the most important part of this article. I contend that the person who seeks the definitive article on homo sapiens should see the human body...not human clothes.

I dislike this article's main image of the two Thais. I find it would be better to place a more "modern" couple. Think of an industrial American business man and woman.. the height of human progress! These farmers are living in the past!!

Am I prejudice? Probably! ;P But as beings capable of abstract reasoning, art, math, sciences, etc.. let's put something that represents are defining characteristics at their peak.. not as serfs!

Mat Wilson (talk) 02:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The image should be representative of typical humans. The current picture fits that purpose very well. Balfa (talk) 06:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm tempted to remove the racist rant simply to maintain the courtesy of discussion here. Whatever the merits or flaws with the current lead image, the fact the pictured subjects are Thai (rather than great and glorious "modern American business men" is not a flaw. The perfectly modern Thai farmers pictured are at least as capable of abstract reasoning, etc. as is any other modern human. Xenophobia, progressivist ideology, and cultural bias is simply ugly, and has no place on the article, nor really even here on the talk page. LotLE×talk 08:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, let's leave it be, if only as a reminder that human folly knows no bounds. I was left scratching my head, wondering whether Thai businesspersons or American farmers would have been acceptable but the combination somehow wasn't. I also wondered at the strange reality of "modern" humans "capable of abstract reasoning" but apparently incapable of understanding that if farmers are "living in the past", we're all due to starve very soon. (Also, some of these "modern" humans seem woefully incapable of proofreading their own talk-page posts, but that's neither here nor there.) Rivertorch (talk) 15:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually.. yes, my previous comment was somewhat racist. Thailand has business people too! I just prefer the industrial style over any sort of farmers (whether they're Thais or any nationality). But that's probably because I ain't a farmer and I like industrial cities with skyscrapers and all that. Then again, Balfa said: "representative of typical humans".. and it is true, still, a large portion of the race is not industrialized and still doing traditional farming methods and not yet rich enough for more machine power due to abusive governments that stifle man's mind. I did not mean to express that Thais were inferior in anyway! And indeed, I should have proofread before I posted, like Rivertouch said. I am not racist and I agree 100% with user, "Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters" that Thais are just as fully capable and have same type of brains as Americans. By "modern", I mean anything within the past 100 years and specifically from the past 50 years on up in terms of technological progress... like machines, computers, steel building, et. al.. I also hate progressivist ideology and the new racism: multi-culturalism. Cheers! Mat Wilson (talk) 22:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is about a species that is about 200,000 years old. During at most 150 years of that existence, humans lived in the large, industrialized cities that Mat Wilson mentions. Choosing such a narrow and unrepresentative depiction would be something like insisting the article Canis must be represented by an image of Soviet space dogs. In contrast, the current image represents (approximately) a level of technology and style of social and economic activity that humans have engaged in for at least a large part of our history (still probably only 20,000 years, but at least that is 80x as long). LotLE×talk 23:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is very true!! I just recall (maybe it wasn't this article) of the main image being the Pioneer plaque and I really liked that because of it's simplicity and nakedness. Again, nothing more than personal preference.. I am being arrogant in this case! ;) If I don't like it though, I'm free to write my own webpage on my own server. ;) And the Pioneer plaque is great for aliens!! So.. we can end this discussion. The image is fine for Wikipedia! Mat Wilson (talk) 05:33, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Aliens might read this, so go with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.30.198.158 (talk) 04:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

See response just above! ;) Mat Wilson (talk) 05:32, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

This image is proof that there are sad power hungry political correct individuals who limit this most primitive picture as the example of human progression. If anything, the photo should show one of the Moon astronauts, to show us in the greatest light. What is this bullcrap anyways? Why not just put a person in a cave as the picture so we can please the cry babies who see everything good as racist and evil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haselnuss (talk • contribs) 06:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree the current image seems very arbitrarily chosen and unrepresentative. Back to the Pioneer plaque I say. FunkMonk (talk) 02:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Did you participate in the months-long discussion resulting in consensus to use the Akha image? The point of the Akha image is that it is arbitrarily chosen. Rivertorch (talk) 06:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I participated in a discussion prior to that where it was agreed the Pioneer plaque was the most appropriate one. Hadn't seen the newer discussion. FunkMonk (talk) 04:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Well...if you have lots of time on your hands, you might start with Talk:Human/Archive_28, then continue with Talk:Human/Archive_29 and Talk:Human/Archive_30. It's not exactly a gripping read, but I think it provides a good illustration of how opinions can shift and fresh consensus emerge over time. It worked that way for me, anyway. Rivertorch (talk) 07:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Add the moon landing photo... it represents us at our highest achievement

And I've removed it as it's a picture of a spacesuit, not a human. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

And who do you suppose is in that suit? Alf? Ok fine, I'll get something more appealing to you ladies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.255.190 (talk) 04:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

And the current image shows mostly linen. If we're ruling out covered skin, that doesn't seem to support the present photograph. I don't have a preference, myself, I'm just pointing this out. --Saerain (talk) 09:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

That the moon landing constitutes humans' "highest achievement" is subjective. Even if it were not subjective, NeilN is correct: the picture is not suitable for the lead image here because it doesn't show humans (let alone typical or random humans). At its core, this article is on a species and should be analogous to other species' articles. Obviously, due to the unique characteristics of humans, the article goes way beyond that core, but it does need to start out that way. Thus, we have a lead image that is roughly comparable to the one found in other articles on species. An image of astronauts might well be appropriate further along in the article, though. If you and Haselnuss are genuinely interested in finding a new lead image in line with WP policies, including WP:Consensus, please take a look back through the last three archive pages and see how the decision to use the current lead image came about. (Incidentally, referring to fellow editors as "ladies" is usually not the most effective method for prolonging assumptions of good faith towards oneself. Your choice, but consider your apparent objective, which would require consensus to achieve.) Rivertorch (talk) 07:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I have not changed my opinion, that I've had for a couple years through dozens of discussions, that the Pioneer plaque image is an excellent choice of lead image. I still think it is a bit better than the one we currently have. However, I most emphatically do not accept any racist, or even progressivist, claptrap about the best image being one that is of a human in a more technological context, nor still less a whiter human for the sake of bigotry.

I have no need or desire to rehash the Pioneer image discussion. Two many electrons have already been killed, and the current Akha image is perfectly good in itself. Assuming a photograph of actual humans is used, it really should look a lot like the Akha image in several respects:

• It should show humans in a typical environment, that represents our ecological lifestyle over tens of thousands of years, and as much as possible avoid features or activities that are specific to very recent times. Anything depicting technology of the last couple decades is pretty much out.
• It should show a male and female. Optionally, it might show a child as well.
• It could be either clothed or naked figures, but neither seems obviously preferable to me. Humans have worn clothes of some sort for many tens of thousands of years. Ideally (as is true of the Akha image), the clothing should not be too culturally or activity stylized. No style of dress is without cultural markers, but the clothing should not be a costume or uniform.
• It should show roughly the fully body plan of humans in "natural" positions. Something representing extreme capabilities, such as an athletic achievement or a contortionist would be misleading. Standing or kneeling would give a better overview of body structure than sitting, curled up, or laying.
• It should not have any humans who are independently recognizable or notable as individuals. This isn't an article about some particular human(s) we admire (or hate), but about the species generally.

I don't think anyone will find anything better in these terms. But if there is a suggestion, make it about these encyclopedic goals, not about bigotry and unencyclopedic purposes. LotLE×talk 09:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I support the use of the current Akha image for primarily for the reasons given by Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters but I think you are being a little hard on the original poster here by accusing him of racism etc. He does not mention race in his suggestion just that we have an 'industrial American business man and woman'. In other words he is just suggesting that we have a picture representing humans from what is probably the dominant culture in the world today. This seems entirely logical to me. The problem is that we could not find a free-use image that met the requirements stated above. If Mat could find a suitable image that we could use there is no reason why it should not be given proper consideration.

I still find it hard to believe that some people want to replace the current realistic image with a poor quality line drawing. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Now that's a real picture we have! A human at work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haselnuss (talk • contribs) 02:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Either the Pioneer plaque (as mentioned above) or the Human_anatomy.jpg image can be used, discard the thai farmers image. This, as Thai represent only a very small portion of the human population. In addition (to have the article be a little more international), the different types of races can be shown in an image added somewhere else in the article. Btw I prefer to have the image showing people accompanied with the race names (eg Causasian, Bantu, ...) rather than "black", "white", ... Finally, we'll need to add more info about the spreading of the population (eg by means of a genographic project image) and finally, we should also mention that the races are again evoluating increasinly rapidly apart from each other. Ref= Jonathan Pritchard, John Hawks, Gregory Cochran, Robert Moyzis, Eric Wang

KVDP (talk) 09:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The entire notion of races is unscientific and should not be lent credence by emphasizing "racial" differences in the article. As the draft FAQ answers quite nicely, there are other axes of difference besides race that are arguably more significant anyway. --Cybercobra (talk) 23:05, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a few images showing the different cultures of the world? Or perhaps one main image that shows both males and females of different cultures. It's either got to be multi-cultural or non-cultural at all. And something to consider is that humans know what a human looks like. Probably, the most plausible non-cultural and least controversial solution would be the Pioneer plaque. llehsadam×talk 22:39 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Except that the Pioneer plaque is not a human at all but a bad quality line drawing with bits missing. All we need is an 'example' of some real humans, which we have. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:01, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Several images would reduce the size to insufficient detail and would require determining what the "different cultures" of the world are and which ones to include, which is impossible to do neutrally. There's no such thing as a non-cultural human. --Cybercobra (talk) 23:05, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, we can never hope to show all races and cultures in an unbiased way in one picture. All we need is a good example of humans. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I like the setup of the image, but I would prefer one where the clothing isn't so loose so that you can see the body shape. As for the race, it doesn't really matter as long as you don't purposely choose the lightest or darkest skinned person. The race of the people in the photo is nicely middle-of-the-road. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.8.92 (talk) 17:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

The current image is a rather pathetic and bureaucratic attempt at portraying modern humanity, who reside more in cities on average than in rural areas. I think the World War 2 page had a nice compromise with their collage of images, and anything would be better than this ludicrous representation of human-kind. When I first saw the image I wasn't sure if I accidentally wandered onto a National Geographic spread on the Third World. I don't mean it to be crass, but the subjects of the photo don't seem to even know, nor care about the picture, or the fact that they are now being used to describe a race of billions of individuals on the worlds most popular encyclopedia.

Let's face it: the only reason this picture is here is because nobody wants to be deal with the inevitable charge of racism for using a much more suitable photo of a white or European person. The virgin cultural sensibilities of the Wiki'ing community apparently were too much even for a depiction of white people laser-engraved onto aluminum plaques.

It really has nothing to do with skin-color or ethnic background at all; modern humanity is not rural in any sense of the word, and agriculture while still essential, is not near as close to the forefront of human enterprise as business is.

I think we should commission a community effort to create a suitable image from scratch using multiple subject of differing ethnicities. This image just doesn't cut it at all. F33bs (talk) 01:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Correction: the current image makes no "attempt at portraying modern humanity"; it simply depicts two humans. And they're just as human as any city-dwelling "white or European person". I smell socks. Rivertorch (talk) 07:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

What about socks? I didn't say they weren't human, nor did I say they were any less human for being rural. I said it's not a suitable image to describe humanity in its present condition, which is the point of an encyclopedia. I think a collage would be best, including nice images of humans of different cultures. 68.104.30.225 (talk) 22:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that collage idea is worth its salt. If you can put one together in PhotoShop or something and then post it to this Talk Page first, then by all means do that, and you'll probably get to copy it from here to the Article. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Is it even NECESSARY to have an image there, we do know what humans look like... Black Cat Claws (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The picture is still generating flak I see. David D. (Talk) 06:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

If you have to choose a race, I'd choose either East Asian (because they are the most common) or West African (because they were first). My first choice is a collage, like they do in the article about mammals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.8.208 (talk) 05:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The Species of the human is not H. sapien, that is the scientific name. The human species is sapien, this page is incorrect and should be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omegtar (talk • contribs) 05:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The lead image is poor in its representation of humans for one big reason, it is sexist, placing the male ahead of the female. This worldview is not supported by archeological research and is only of more modern origin. It does a disservice to the millions of women who still fight to get the place they belong to back to them. Please SERIOUSLY consider replacing this image. One more thing if you are at it. Many years ago I saw a great picture in the National Geographic magazine, in the center was a portrait of a Kalahari bushman and around him diverging from his face in concentric circles like a flower (different skin tones) were people of different origin, asians, caucasian, native americans, eskimo, etc. It is amazing to see this image as it is in an instant clear how all the other diverge from this bushman's facial features. Given that the lead image is generating some flack as to why this or that race on the image, why not consider a shot of a couple from Kalahari. It may just work with everyone its own magic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.239.122 (talk) 16:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I was not impressed with the article's all-too-common yet inane stance that human beings are the only ones who are sentient. It's really ridiculous for our literature to continue with that belief. People come in [all species][1] of organism. They communicate (have language), have emotions and relationships with each other and with the rest of Nature, and can feel things this article asserts only humans are capable of, like happiness and humor. It just misses the point entirely to start picking apart this vital awareness with arguments about the [lack of a brain organ in an amoeba][2] or whatever. The fact is, [all species are people][3] of a different kind than than the human species. The sooner humanity recognizes this [obvious][4] fact of life on Earth, the sooner we can get on with [our evolution as a species][5] and cooperate with the other honorable denizens with whom we share our biosphere to reach new heights in all areas of [expression and understanding][6]. wakeupkid 06:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)JMF, Portland, Oregon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jadenef (talk • contribs)

Humans are herbivores

See the "Humans Are Biological Frugivores" Archive Heading.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Most biologists agree that humans are herbivores. Our digestive systems are far more similar to that of other herbivorous species, not omnivores. I'm not suggesting take everything about being omnivores out, because we obviously act like we are, but adding something about how humans are biologically herbivores.24.17.64.28 (talk) 02:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC) I think popular usage applies here meaning we can't say something even if it's true if the general population believes or says otherwise. For instance, we can't say Obama is the first mixed president. we have to say he's the first black president since that's what the media says.username 1 (talk) 20:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC) Not true at all. Common knowledge is often mistaken and WP often debunks common misconceptions. The vegsource article cited seems reasonably reliable. I don't see why the info couldn't be incorporated. --Cybercobra (talk) 20:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC) The sources all seem to be from vegetarian web sites and do not support the assertion that most biologists agree that humans are herbivores.Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC) Indeed. It ought to be something more like "Some biologists/doctors/whatever such as XX and YY believe humans are anatomically herbivores." --Cybercobra (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC) We are NOT anatomically herbivores. We are true biological omnivores. Members of Homo sapiens HAVE what are called canine teeth near the front of the mouth. True herbivores (such as horses, cattle, and rabbits) LACK that type of tooth altogether. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 09:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC) This is not a scientifically sound conclusion. Gorillas (which of course are much closer to us than the ungulates and rodents you use as examples) have enormous canine teeth, and are complete herbivores. They use their canines to cut into hard plants such as bamboo. It is invalid to conclude that the existence of canines equates with meat-eating. — Epastore (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Humans were never capable of eating any plant as hard as bamboo, so our canines can't be for that as those of gorillas are. (I will not even emphasize the fact that gorillas do eat certain insects, and insects do count as animals rather than plants.) Meat, I might point out, is far softer than bamboo, and what's taught in bio. classes is that we evolved omnivorous, and, when eating meat, tearing it straight off the bone. This explains the shape of a canine tooth that is nowhere near strong enough to tear very hard plants. Also, can gorillas digest true cellulose? (Humans can't. I can tell you that much for certain.) Furthermore, our Australopithecine ancestors were not like modern gorillas in their diet. See the "Diet" Section in the Article Australopithecus. We are also directly descendant from Homo erectus, a largely carnivorous scavenger, by way of our immediate ancestor, Homo rhodesiensis. In any case, even the very oldest fossil sites of Homo sapiens (after our own speciation) sometimes have animal bones near them, which means we are true biological omnivores. To be exact, we are supposed to be primary-secondary omnivores, which means the animal prey we eat is itself herbivorous. (So, we eat plants and herbivores but not other carnivores.) With some exceptions, we largely adhere to that even today. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Please see discussion below under the subject heading Humans Are Biological Frugivores. The cuspids ("canines") are adapted for cracking nuts. Our cuspids are short, stout and slightly triangular, and bear no resemblance to the long, round, slender, curved, sharp canines set apart from the other teeth, which is a feature of all true carnivores (except birds). Anthropologist Nathaniel J. Dominy of the University of California,Santa Cruz and colleagues have found that Homo erectus has a stable isotope signature that is consistent with a high-starch diet, not a carnivorous diet. Pearl999 (talk) 13:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC) First of all, with all do respect to Prof. Dominy, Homo erectus falls under paleontology, not anthropology. H. erectus is just that old, and had no developed cultures such that the field of anthropology is designed to study. Second, I never said they were true carnivores. I said they were partial scavengers, which is true. (It was in a History Channel Documentary, and those are very well researched.) So, while they were not true carnivores, they were also not true herbivores. Furthermore, humans canines can't crack nuts. Try it sometime. You'll actually break your teeth long before you break the nut. (Hence: Nutcrackers.) A better explanation is that predators with longer and rounder canines often bite into live animals in order to kill them. (Try watching a pack of wolves attack a deer.) Humans, in the partial scavenger heritage of H. erectus, have always had their animal prey already dead long before biting into the meat. The difference is that Homo rhodesiensis and Homo sapiens had better weapons and could kill prey animals, thereby not having to look for already-dead ones. Third, I would like to draw some attention to the fact that true herbivores can digest straight-chain cellulose, something humans can not do. Furthermore, the human stomach is proportionally too small to be consistent with a complete herbivores. (Herbivores have more distended bellies to accommodate more material, because plants are still harder to digest even if one can digest cellulose.) The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 15:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC) Thanks for the opportunity for necessary correction. Human canines are known as "incisiform" canines, which anthropologist David Pilbeam suggests function as extensions of the incisors and by analogy perform the same function.. "absolutely and relatively large incisors are correlated with food procurement tasks, such as biting into large fruits with hard rinds." (Pilbeam D., 'Human Evolution' course Harvard College, Science B-27 handouts, Section 3 - Anatomy II: The Cranium, Mandible And Dentition). Dental and oral anatomy of humans is entirely consistent with that of a frugivorous great ape, with the addition of canine teeth further adapted to a biting plus suction fruit diet. Source: http://www.free-ebooks.net/ebook/Are-Humans-Omnivores-/html/4 As noted below in the section Humans are Biological Frugivores, there is good evidence of human hunting skills only around 100,000 years ago, and it's clear they were very ineffective big-game hunters. Some archaeologists and paleontologists don't think humans had a modern, systematic method of hunting until as recently as 60,000 years ago. With regard to scavenging, the opportunistic eating of uncooked carrion by nonhuman primates or humans is likely to result in gastrointestinal illness. See: http://www.jstor.org/pss/3630928 Pearl999 (talk) 13:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC) Insects are animals animals rather than plants. Therefore, the fact that other great apes (such as gorillas) feed on insects as well as plants makes them omnivores, not true herbivores, even though they mostly eat plants. Also, Homo erectus was adapted to eating partially rotten meat in ways that the descendant species Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis (from which Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens later speciated in turn, respectively) somehow lost. They probably had a better immune system than we do now. All I know for sure is that it was in a documentary on human evolution that they were scavengers at least in part. Furthermore, I'm still not seeing anything to counter argue the fact that humans can not digest straight-chain cellulose, an ability that a herbivore would have a hard time surviving without, considering that plants usually contain that tough polymer. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 01:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Humans are frugivores, not herbivores (grazers/browsers). Larger primates may ingest or eat insects, but they comprise a very small proportion of the diet. Pearl999 (talk) 16:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC) A mostly-frugivore with even a tiny percentage of animals in its diet, even if those animals are small and taxonomically distant as insects are, constitutes a type of omnivore. Furthermore, it is about time I produced a non-Wiki link, so here's one. Our teeth (which actually have a rather hard time cutting through thick rhinds unaided, by the way) aside, the rest of our digestive system beyond our mouth is not consistent with an exclusive plant-eater. I mentioned before that we can't digest straight-chain cellulose, and our stomach pH is more consistent with carnivores than herbivores. The list could continue from there. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 21:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC) I don't see an external link. To address your points.. 1. An omnivore, according to an accepted definition given below, is an animal who (naturally) eats both animal and plant foods as a primary source. 2. Are you saying that a human couldn't bite into a melon - a large fruit with a hard rind? 3. Carnivores (omnivores are carnivorous) have a much higher concentration of hydrochloric acid in the stomach for break down of proteins and to kill any dangerous bacteria. Their stomach acidity is less than or equal to pH 1 with food in the stomach, while humans have a pH 4 to 5. (http://naturalk9.com/PDF/Anatomy%20of%20a%20Carnivore.pdf) 4. There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn, with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality rates. - Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative diseases: perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59 (5 Suppl):1153S-1161S http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/59/5/1153S “Although human beings eat meat, we are not natural carnivores. We were intended to eat plants, fruits, and starches! No matter how much fat carnivores eat, they do not develop atherosclerosis. ... Thus, although we think we are one and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores. [frugivores] http://www.baylorhealth.edu/proceedings/11_4/11_4_roberts.html#ref4 Pearl999 (talk) 12:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC) That little superscripted [1] is a link outside Wikipedia, and if someone can tell me how to make the link work better that would be great. 1. Omnivores are NOT truly carnivorous. A true carnivore feeds exclusively on meat in terms of direct consumption. 2. Try it. Many types of melons just might chip your teeth, and our teeth don't grow back. 3. See 1. As stated in the article that I tried to link to above, the stomach pH when empty, however, does not match that of true herbivores when empty. 4. Prehistoric humans got a lot more exercise than modern ones, and that is the real problem with fat content and so forth. 5. True herbivores can digest straight-chain cellulose. We can't. That's more or less a smoking gun for this Discussion. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 00:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC) The 'information' at the website you've linked is extremely flawed, as a look at the page "Comparison Between the Digestive Tracts of a Carnivore, a Herbivore and Man" quickly reveals. The statement that human "jaw movements are vertical" alone should alert you to the fact that this is nothing more than pseudoscientific nonsense. If "mastication is unimportant" in man, try "wolfing down" chunks of your next meal of animal flesh and you'll rapidly become part of a statistic.. http://www.hassandlass.org.uk/query/reports/1998.pdf . Your author makes no mention at all of frugivores. Omnivores have carnivorous biological adaptations. Humans do not. The coronary arteries of the extremely active Masai showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26 Please try to support your claims with credible evidence. Pearl999 (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Atherosclerosis can be prevented by balancing red meat (more LDL than HDL) with fish (more HDL than LDL). This provides HDL to help break down LDL, which would otherwise build up in blood vessels. Furthermore, according to the Abstract of your article on the Masai, their fat intake exceeds that of American men on average, thereby balancing out their higher levels of exercise. In any case, fish are animals rather than plants. As for my sources, I seem to remember citing History Channel Documentaries and the like, and those are quite reliable. As for the fossil record, arrowheads have been found at Homo habilis fossil sites, which is part of how the binomial, which translates as "handy human," was derived. Even if their hunting skills were not stellar, they were not exclusive plant-eaters, and the members of H. habilis were the very first humans, for their species was the ancestor of the Genus Homo. According to the History Channel Documentary on Human Evolution, Homo sapiens evolved with at least a minority of meat in the diet, although I forget whether it was 5% or 10%. Furthermore, Homo neanderthalensis, also a type of human, had a diet of nearly 90% meat. The fact remains that exclusive plant-eaters can digest straight-chain cellulose, which humans can not do. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 18:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Another type of animal flesh to counter the deleterious effects of consuming animal flesh, you think? The effects of lean fish on plasma lipoproteins, .. Compared with the nonfish diet, the lean fish diet induced higher plasma total and LDL apolipoprotein (apo) B and apo B:apo A-1 ratio, indicating that the substitution of lean fish for beef, veal, pork, eggs and milk provides little benefits with regard to plasma apo B concentrations in a low-fat high P:S diet. http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/6/745 Comparison of three species of dietary fish: effects on serum concentrations of low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol and apolipoprotein in normotriglyceridemic subjects ... the consumption of fish with a moderate amounts of n-3 fatty acids (salmon and sablefish) may cause a deleterious rise in LDL-C and apo B concentrations in normotriglyceridemic males (even compared with lean fish). http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/2/334 Try: Effect of a diet high in vegetables, fruit, and nuts on serum lipids. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9160820 If humans were naturally carnivorous, the Masai, et al. (omnivorous humans) wouldn't get atherosclerosis, period. Homo habilis: declared by most evolutionary paleontologists to be an ‘invalid taxon’ (biological category), i.e. a phantom species composed of a ‘waste-bin’ of fossils more correctly assigned to other species.10 http://creation.com/missing-the-mark-louis-leakey A search on the www reveals no evidence of arrowheads from the early period you are referring to. In any case, what is being discussed is biological adaptation, not behavioural adaptation. Please distinguish between the two, thanks. And again, since you will keep referring to it: humans are frugivores, not herbivores (grazers and browsers). Also, another point I think you need to address, is how our teeth could become chipped from biting into melon. Pearl999 (talk) 12:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC) Pearl999, you just resorted to citing a Creationist source. (Namely, http://creation.com/missing-the-mark-louis-leakey.) That alone concludes my listening to anything you could possibly say. Furthermore, Homo habilis is not an invalid taxon, although some individuals have been invalidly placed in it. A minority of taxonomists want to call it Australopithecus habilis, but the current name (H. habilis) sticks because a majority of experts do consider it valid. Although there is some controversy over its Genus-level inclusion, that is different from being polyphyletic as you suggested. As a Biology Major, however, I am well aware of invalid taxa, such as, for example, the alleged Kingdom Protista. I was taught from the start that it was polyphyletic, and it annoyed me, personally. Eventually, the experts figured out how to discard it (i.e. what actual kingdoms comprised it), hence the Kingdoms Chromalveolata and Excavata to name just 2. See also the alleged Kingdom Monera. In any case, the Natural History Museum recognizes H. habilis (and I was there as recently as December 2008), as do some quite recent documentaries on human evolution (from the History Channel and the like). As for fish, I have heard from a Registered Nurse about some medical literature that fish can improve HDL:LDL ratios. In order to counter her, what is your degree (level and field)? When I asked Evolution Professor Edward Gabriel (of Lycoming College, Williamsport, PA) about this very matter, he affirmed that humans evolved with a small portion of meat in our diet, perhaps 5% or 10%. I fully realize that those are far smaller percentages than what most present-day humans consume in meat, but it still makes humans omnivores. Any animal short of 100% plant or animal prey, in either direction, is automatically an omnivore according to the definitions I learned back in High School Biology (College-Prep Level). Last but not least, I have yet to see an alternative explanation on why we can't digest straight-chain cellulose, an ability without which an exclusive plant eater in the wild is in serious trouble. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 01:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC) Kreger (2005) concludes that "No two researchers attribute all the same specimens as habilis, and few can agree on what traits define habilis, if it is a valid species at all, and even whether or not it belongs in the genus Homo or Australopithecus." http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/homohabilis.htm . If citing from unreliable sources is a criteria for (not) being listened to, well I wouldn't be throwing stones if I were you. With regards to fish, I've just given you published research. Allegedly reliable TV documentaries, hearsay and say-so don't really cut it here, sorry. Humans are still biological frugivores no matter what percentage of animal flesh there may be in the diet. Frugivores don't need to digest cellulose (which becomes necessary fibre that aids in digestive transit), since our molar teeth are adapted to mash and grind fruits, roots and other succulent parts of vegetables, thus breaking the plant cell walls and releasing the nutrients within. Pearl999 (talk) 11:22, 10 April 2010 (UTC) At least all the articles I cited were (also, at least) by Ph. D. biologists, and not a single one from a Creationist site. Furthermore, the references from individuals are from experts (Professors of relevant subjects) and experts alone. That's not hearsay. That's more like interviewing experts in the field. The History Channel is not allegedly reliable, but quite well researched. More importantly, the Natural History Museum recognizes Homo habilis. The Natural History Museum is among the ultimate reliable sources for evolution questions. I acknowledge that humans perhaps evolved with mostly plants as food, but not 100%. I acknowledge that 5% or 10% meat is much less than what most present-day humans consume, but it still constitutes a point on a spectrum of true omnivores. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC) Barry (mastication is unimportant) Groves, PhD - http://www.foodforchange.org.uk/2008/10/saturatedfatisgoodforyou/ . Where are humans' evolutionary carnivorous biological adaptations? Why was there no evidence of a threshold beyond which further benefits did not accrue with increasing proportions of plant-based foods in the diet? (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1667679). How is it that the relative risk (RR) of colon cancer for the intake of red meat for >0-<1 time/week = 1.38 , and the RR for >0-<1 time/week = 1.55 for white meat (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/148/8/761.pdf) if humans are natural omnivores? Human dietary habits do not constitute evidence of evolutionary biological adaptation. Pearl999 (talk) 10:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC) Our closest taxonomic relatives do eat insects despite how tiny a proportion of their diet those animals constitute. Our relation to them is not a habit (and you're right that habits alone don't count as adaptations), but a matter of evolution. Furthermore, that 5%-to-10% estimate pertains to what we evolved while doing, not present-day habit, which would show higher percentages of meat consumption. In addition, the examples of Gorilla gorilla and Gorilla beringei, our relatives in the Order Primates, demonstrate even from insects alone that frugivores fall short of eating 100% plant material. These relatives of ours lack the artificial changes of habit that we have. Thus, only herbivores (as in grazers) are 100% exclusive to plants. I should also point out the fact that humans only have mutualistic bacteria in the large intestine, and not in the stomach itself as exclusive plant-eaters do. The human caecum is also far too small to be consistent with an exclusive plant-eater, as is the human colon. Those last 2 items in Italics are not consistent with the adaptations of exclusive plant-eaters. Aside: [7]. I compared my own lower jaw as best I could to this well-resolved image of the lower jaw of a female gorilla. I found, in a matter of anatomy, not habit, that my teeth are in fact slightly sharper and rougher than hers, naturally. (I have never had any crazy tooth-sharpening surgery or the like, so my tooth shape must be as nature had it.) Unless this comparison of a human's and a gorilla's teeth is a gross anomaly, this is an adaptation to chewing a small dietary portion of non-insect meat. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC) Most forest primates have a frugivorous diet, with a supplement of protein provided either by young vegetable shoots and leaves, or by animal matter (mostly insects) -- a flexible dietary adaptation that allows them to switch between various categories of food items available in different habitats throughout the seasons of the year. The largest primate species, especially anthropoids, consume mainly vegetable matter to provide their protein requirements. (http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf). Diet and seasonal changes in sympatric gorillas and chimpanzees at Kahuzi-Biega National Park - Gorillas rarely fed on insects, but chimpanzees occasionally fed on bees with honey, which possibly compensate for fruit scarcity. http://www.springerlink.com/content/v074m6375801080w/ Studies of frugivorous communities suggest that dietary divergence is highest when preferred food (succulent fruit) is scarce, and that niche separation is clear only at such times. (Gautier-Hion & Gautier 1979: Terborgh 1983) - Foraging profiles of sympatric lowland gorillas and chimpanzees in the Lope Reserve, Gabon, p.179, Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences vol 334, 159-295, No. 1270. And again, humans are frugivores, not herbivores (grazers and browsers) adapted to consume and digest large quantities of grasses or leaves, so it really is pointless for you to keep comparing the two. Our plant food mashing and grinding molars could certainly also grind insects, but to claim that they're specifically adapted to doing so... well it just doesn't fly, Mysterious El Willstro. Pearl999 (talk) 12:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC) The contrast between gorillas and chimps advances my point, rather than refuting it like you wanted to do. In the sentence, "Diet and seasonal changes in sympatric gorillas and chimpanzees at Kahuzi-Biega National Park - Gorillas rarely fed on insects, but chimpanzees occasionally fed on bees with honey, which possibly compensate for fruit scarcity," I found a rare gem of argumentation. Despite how gorillas look more like us to the untrained eye, humans are taxonomically closer to chimps than to gorillas. In addition, I do not claim that are teeth are adapted mainly for insects, but rather that human molars are sharper than those of gorillas based on a well-resolved image of a female gorilla's lower jaw. By all means, compare your own lower jaw to hers as best you can. Also, you can make all the Ad Hominem arguments about Dr. Groves that you like, but his table under "Comparison 4" is actually accurate with the possible exception of the one line about mastication. Come to think of it, it depends what one means by "important," as it is often physically possible for humans to swallow relatively small pieces of food with little if any chewing. (Consider an extra-thin carrot stick or such that if anything one mostly chews to maximize taste.) The rest of the table matches what I've learned in class (and since the table is a retrievable source I can use what I've learned in class to reinforce it). As physically unhealthy as he himself may be, I seem to recall reading that he is now in his 70s, coming to be a nice ripe old age. People will start to fade in their 70s onward no matter what. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC) Plant foods provided ~99% of the food seen eaten by chimpanzees during a year-long study. http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes/conferences/wburg/posters/nconklin/conklin.html. I must remind you that according to an accepted definition, 'Omnivores... are species that eat both plants and animals as their primary food source'. A food source constituting ~1% of the natural diet can in no way be considered primary. Gorillas are highly folivorous, hence the flatter more herbivorous type leaf-grinding molars that you observe. In contrast, a. the dental and microwear patterns exhibited by Australopithecus are compatible with the additions of roots to a chimpanzee-like diet (http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes/conferences/wburg/posters/nconklin/conklin.html) and, b. researchers report that humans have on average 3 times more AMY1 copies compared to chimps, indicating that the consumption of high-starch roots and tubers began early in the human lineage. (http://thexvials.blogspot.com/2008/02/planet-of-starch-eaters.html). The argument against Dr. Groves is not ad hominem. He's promoted blatant nonsense on those pages despite being an authority in your estimation. If you'd like to pick through what's there to provide us with what you consider to be credible evidence for carnivorous biological adaptations in humans, then go ahead and we'll examine it together. Carnivores can rip large chunks of flesh from a carcass and swallow it whole. Humans cannot. If you think that a physically unfit (why? if humans are natural omnivores) man in his 70's is a 'nice ripe old age', try this: 140 Uygur centenarians among the ages of 100 to 135 years of whom nearly two thirds could take care of themselves and some could even do slight physical labour. .. with (footnotes) (6) Higher than expected levels of serum sex hormones, (7) Intaking of large quantities of fresh maize, melon, fruits and onion all year round; http://www.cmj.org/Periodical/PaperList.asp?id=LW8518 . And yes, vegan men have higher testosterone levels (offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin). They also have low insulin-like growth factor-I, and higher levels of IGF-1 may increase the risk of several types of cancer. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10883675 Pearl999 (talk) 11:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC) You mentioned an age range of 100 to 135. The world record for a human lifespan was only 121 years or so. Look it up. That person died in the late 1990s. Let me clarify this: There is no such thing as an expert "in my estimation." A Ph. D. is a Ph. D. Furthermore, animals that can bite into live pray as you just described are pure carnivores, not omnivores. Comparing with wolves and such is pointless when no one is arguing that humans are true carnivores. I will also point out the fact that humans are not forest primates by natural habitat. The Congo plain where Homo sapiens speciated from Homo rhodesiensis is a Savanna region, not a jungle. Trees (a source of fruits and hard roots) would be far scarcer there than meat would. I would be amiss not to mention that the fact that chimps and gorillas (the largely frugivorous apes you cite as analogous examples) both evolved in the jungle, whereas we evolved on the Savanna. That is quite a major habitat difference, and habitats must always be taken into account when interpreting adaptations or potential adaptations, such as tooth morphologies and everything else. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:33, 19 April 2010 (UTC) I changed your edit to bring the link outside the "ref" tag to make it more visible. —Soap— 00:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Thank you, Soap! Could you send the syntax for that on my User Talk Page? Apparently, the type of link I originally used works better in Articles themselves than on Talk Pages. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 02:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Yes, I did mean to edit my comment to note that gorillas do eat insects. However, obviously their canines are not suited to that purpose. All I was saying is that is it scientifically invalid to claim that the mere existence of canines indicates meat-eating, or that canines can only be used for rending flesh. Comparing us to ungulates and rodents hardly seems relevant, so I made a comparison to other Great Apes, and noted that very similar animals use canines for non-carnivorous purposes. Separately, do be careful in how you say that one species of Homo evolved from another. If you dig into the anthropology, you will find that there is really no certainty there. What you claim as fact is more the generally (but by no means universally) accepted hypothesis. The evidence provided by fossils is very scarce; and no anthropologist will say there is certainty about almost any direct descent from one Homo species to another. — Epastore (talk) 05:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC) I said most biologists based on personal experience. Every biologist I've spoken to/met has agreed that humans are herbivores. I don't suggest using this wording in the article. Yes, the sources are from vegetarian web sites, sure, but they are all articles written by biologists with no ties to these web sites themselves. I merely couldn't find the articles posted elsewhere. Also, the third source was meant to be 24.17.64.28 (talk) 20:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC) I'm a Biology Major. We are true omnivores. Even the very oldest fossil records of humans show at least some meat consumption. Actually, let's go even further back to "Diet" in Australopithecus. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC) I've seen humans in real life several times and they were eating meat, so based on observation alone it appears the the species is omnivorous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.8.92 (talk) 17:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC) I have also encountered several humans who, in their natural habitat, were eating meat. Seems to me they're omnivores and should be listed as such.AlexHOUSE (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC) I'll avoid entering this dispute for the time being, but my personal opinion is that humans are unique and cannot be classified in a category with any other animal. Yes, we eat meat, but generally only if it's of an animal that's been dead for a long time (relative to the fresh kills we see in the wild), drained of blood, cleaned of internal organs, and cooked in a very careful way. Yes, there are exceptions, but they're rare, and no human will take all of the exceptions at once, by e.g. hunting a small animal and then eating it raw right then and there. People who do try things like that (see raw foodism) suffer health problems, because it's not just a preference, it's an actual evolutionary adaptation. So there are quite a lot of differences between us and nearly every other "meat eater". Also, we're the only animal in the world that by nature eats grains ... we invented grains. So we're not really much like any of the other herbivores in the world either. Hence, I say that humans are unclassifiable on the herbivore/carnivore/omnivore spectrum, though if we have to pick one, I would say omnivore is the one that makes the most sense because pigs are omnivores and we're the most like them. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 17:16, 20 January 2010 (UTC) To clarify, the reason I said I'm avoiding the content dispute and then went on to reply to the discussion is because my argument is pretty much classic original research, which is sometimes acceptable on an article talk page if (and only if) it oontributes to the discussion at hand, but is never allowed in the article itself. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 17:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Locusts eat grains. Unless i'm mistaken. But I digress. username 1 (talk) 21:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Lots of animals eat grains: insects; birds; rodents; many large herbivores as supplements grasses; etc. We're the only animal who eats ground and cooked bread, for example (except for others that scavenge it from humans)... but then, we're also the only animal who eats hot dogs or sushi too (modulo the scavenging thing, of course). There's nothing hard to classify about human diet, particularly; albeit the amount of preparation humans apply to most foodstuffs is certainly more than with other animals. LotLE×talk 22:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC) We can probably put a paragraph or two on Human nutrition though we need a better source. username 1 (talk) 21:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Agreed. Evolving to eat cooked meat and processed grains is pretty notable and should be mentioned. --174.91.8.92 (talk) 21:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Herbivores hmm why do i eat meat? Why did my ancenters have incensors? y does every time i eat meat i dont barf I don't know about you, but I've seen plenty of meat-eating humans. Making the majority of humans omnivores. Black Cat Claws (talk) 18:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC) The overwhelming majority of biologists classify humans as omnivores. Just look at homo sapiens the way we would look at any other species: what does this species eat, and not just recently, but over the history of the species? Going back tens of thousands of years, at the very least, our species eats both meat and plants.--RLent (talk) 16:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC) What about the fossil record? We've always eaten meat. The fossil record is unambiguous. Chrisrus (talk) 13:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC) That's right. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Clarification on closure of above Section, and potential invitation to open new Section on same topic

Pearl, you can re-open this at any time if you are just careful to phrase everything in terms of what specifically you want to change about the article. This I say in the hopes that you don't feel you've been treated unfairly. Chrisrus (talk) 23:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Sexually Transferrable Diseases

I think there should be something on this topic a.o. so that people looking for info on the subject on e.g. std's can find the articles on these subjects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SvenAERTS (talk • contribs)

These are by no means unique or special to humans. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Uniquely Human Diseases

By the way, are there any diseases which are specific to only humans? I know that many parasites are specific to one or very few species, fleas for example. So reason dictates that there could be viruses and harmful bacteria unique to just one species, so why not humans? Then, there are the diseases an animal gets from eating the wrong diet. Our dietary needs are specific and complicated, so it follows that there might be diseases of that sort that are unique to humans. And look at our unusual skeletons! You'll never convince me we aren't relatively more prone to back and knee trouble; it's a really aweful bipedal design compared to Utahraptor or Emu designs. Not to mention our complicated psychologies! Make something more complicated, and you've increased the chances of something going wrong. Anyway, If we could list or discuss uniquely human diseases in the article, I'd say it'd be a fine addition. What's the word/term for "disease that effects only one species" or "...only humans"? If we knew that we could easily Google up a list. Chrisrus (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Important diseases that are peculiar to humans might be mentioned here, especially if they played a major part in human evolution or development. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, infectious diseases that are unique to humans can have no animal reservoir. In these cases, once the disease can be eliminated through the human population (via something like vaccination efforts), then the disease simply no longer exists. That's what happened to smallpox, and it's what's going to happen soon to polio. In short, human-only diseases don't live very long, but they're almost exclusively viral. I wouldn't mind seeing a section about Smallpox, polio, or some of the herpesviridae. In keeping with Martin's suggestion, we ought to include a few retroviruses, as most of our genome may very well have come from remnants of their DNA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.204.168 (talk) 00:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Well if we are talking about diseases/pathogens that have had a major evolutionary role in humans then perhaps Mycobacterium tuberculous should be included in such a discussion. From an immune system point of view an entire of class of T cells (gamma-delta) have evolved and are present in our bodies (albeit only about ~5% of circulating lymphocytes) that specifically target M. tuberculous in the humans. TheIguana (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Although it originated as a disease that infected nonhuman primates and only made the jump to humans recently, isn't HIV a uniquely human disease? I just wanted to point this out. I don't believe this should be included in the article because HIV has in no way influenced human evolution in any meaningful way. --Armaetin (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Reproduction - Fertility

I think there should be something on this topic a.o. so that people looking for info on the subject on e.g. fertility cycle / birth control / std's can find the articles on these subjects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SvenAERTS (talk • contribs)

Humans Are Biological Frugivores

Chrisrus was right in that comment at the end.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
(Copyright violations removed.) Ucucha 01:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC) (...) http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf (...) http://www.springerlink.com/content/rr78052089583418/ (...) http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf (...) http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/hu/2002/00000043/00000006/art00604 (...) http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1667679 Pearl999 (talk) 16:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC) The way I read hominid articles, all apes eat lots of fruit, but it tends to be a boom-and-bust source of food. The robust australopithecines were built to handle eating plant material we couldn't possibly deal with. Their skulls look like those of gorillas, with huge bovine teeth, so they moved on beyond fruit to grains and other rougher stuff. And they died out, while the gracile australopithecines, which seem to have built for meat and lots of other things, gave rise to our genus; while the robustus types died out. Which makes sense because a varied diet with lots of meat pushes an animal towards intelligence, organization, and pressure to solve problems. We recently seem to have eaten a lot of fish at one time, but early on we ate a lot of marrow. Fish is good brain food, and that seems to have helped us over the threashold to humanity. Our closest cousins/enemies such a neanderthals, well, we've got more evidence there, according to that article we know practically for sure that they ate meat, meat, meat, and then for dessert some meat. They were a wierd bunch, those neanderthals, very unlike us in many ways, so what they did doesn't say anything about what our ancestors ate, but there's no doubt at all that they weren't vegetarians. In fact, modern vegetarianism is only possible thanks to the artificial selection work of many generations of peasant farmers in Asia and Mexico, quite recently in terms of our evolution, desparately trying to grow meat on a bush. Thanks to them, you can be a vegan if you want to by eating lots of soy beans and mexican beans and such, lentils, but these didn't exist in nature, we had to artificially create them, and our ancestors did not have that option, at least not until way too recently to make a difference. And still you will notice, -"burp"- still don't ("toot" - excuse me burritos for lunch) - still are WAY far from easy on the ol' human digestive system, much less to subsist on. Plants want you to eat their fruit, so they make it easy on the species they contract with for seed dispersal. But they hate to be eaten, so making themselves unpalatable, if not poisonous or impossible to digest. All but the best herbavours have to stay where they evolved because they're not used to the plants in another biome. Meat eaters don't have that problems, because, as the Africans say, meat is meat. If you can eat a zebra, you can eat a caribu. Without meat eating, how could our ancestors have spread across the world and learned to live in every biome, just about. By the way, think about eskimos, they didn't eat any vegetables at all. How do you explain that? So eating too much meat is bad for us? No doubt, but what does that prove? So is eating too much salt or sugar will also kill you. But having too much meat and salt and sugar wasn't a problem homonids had, was nothing we evolved to cope with. Quite the opposite. Humans will, if given the chance, eat way too much meat and salt and sugar, that's true. But if you stop and think about that for a bit, it's pretty obvious why that is. We didn't evolve with supermarkets and restaurants in the enviroment! Chrisrus (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Exactly. Humans are opportunistic omnivores, able to survive and reproduce on a very wide range of foods. In any case, the claimed harm from eating some foodstuffs in excess is actually insignificant in evolutionary terms. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Human anatomy is almost identical to the anatomy of frugivorous primates. Gut measurements do not support theories of an adaptation towards carnivory, but are grouped on the best fit line of the frugivores (Hladik et al., 1999). http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf That is not what this article is all about. It basically makes the point, 'while meat assumed a more important role in hominid diet, it was not responsible for any major evolutionary shift'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC) That's right, and contrary to popular belief. Whatever the article is about, the measurements of the (modern) human gut are grouped on the best fit line of the frugivores. Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Dr Alan Walker and associates, anthropologists at John Hopkins University, found that "Every tooth examined from the hominids of the 12 million year period leading up to Homo Erectus appeared to be that of a fruit-eater." (NY Times, May 1979). Robert W. Sussman, Ph.D., professor of anthropology, Washington University in St. Louis. discovered that Australopithecus afarensis did not have the sharp shearing blades necessary to retain and cut animal flesh. Their teeth were relatively small, very much like modern humans, and they were fruit and nut eaters. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38011 Indeed, humans developed tools for killing animals and cutting meat and thus do not need specialised teeth. If humans were naturally carnivorous, we wouldn't need external aids. Humans also constructed airplanes, but flying in airplanes doesn't make us birds. Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Humans have used tools since they first evolved. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC) And ...? Pearl999 (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) So noted, Pearl999. We must now stop flying and eating dead animals. :) J.M. Archer (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Regardless of what you can do, the fact remains... humans are by nature terrestrial frugivores. Pearl999 (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) K. Sure. So tell me something: how many animals are classified by what it looks like they should do rather than what they do? J.M. Archer (talk) 15:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Really! Mr. Pearl, let me ask you this: What would you say to an anatomist who, if you were a panda caretaker, who came to you with a skull pointing out that this animal is clearly a carnivore, so you should stop feeding it bamboo? What would you say to him? Would you say "ok" and then start feeding Ling Ling only meat, based on the anatomy of the skull, plus the fact that almost all other members of the order are carnivores? Chrisrus (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC) It's Ms., but you may call me Sir.  ;). WRT the Panda. Pandas are closely related to the bears, and whilst indeed being almost completely herbivorous, Pandas do in fact sometimes still eat small animals. With the exception of the polar bear, bears are regarded as omnivores, having molar teeth adapted to grinding plant-foods. The bears "diverge from the carnivorous type towards the Ungulata; the result being the same,- that is, regarded in the mass, they become omnivorous. But the exceptions, so far from being inconsistent with the law of correlation, furnish fine illustrations of the manner in which its details are carried out, in contrasted cases of mixed types." http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/comm/ScPr/Falc.htm (Hope that cite's not excessive) Pearl999 (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Species throughout nature intuitively consume the foods they are specifically adapted to consume. So normally there's no discrepancy between what other species do and what it looks like they should do. Speaking of classification, Linnaeus, who introduced the system of naming animals and plants according to their physical structure, wrote: "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of other animals shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." Pearl999 (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2010 (UTC) So you're answer is "yes"? Chrisrus (talk) 16:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC) See reply above. If something's still unclear, just ask and I'll do my best to clarify. Pearl999 (talk) 17:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Ok, there can be a discrepancy between what a species does and what it looks like they should do based on looking at their jaws and teeth and such because one could have recently changed, as for example with the Panda, which looks for all the world like it should be a meat eater and because it evolved from meat eaters and its closest relatives all eat meat, but that doesn't matter because we know that pandas are basically herbivores because we observe them in their natural habitat eating it and so we feed them mostly bamboo in captivity and they do well on mostly bamboo and very little meat. So that trumps anything an anatomist or taxonomist can tell us as a zookeeper. Proving what you do trumps what it looks like you should do. Right? Chrisrus (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC) The panda has developed a number of physiological adaptations. The cheek teeth are large and blunt and covered with tubercles to serve as a grinding surface for cellulose-laden materials such as bamboo. The same is true of the premolars, a condition not seen in other bears (Schaller, 1985). .. continues at http://giantpandaonline.org/naturalhistory/description.htm Pearl999 (talk) 13:45, 19 March 2010 (UTC) Ok, so you know that we now know that Neanderthals ate almost nothing but meat. What can you say, morphologically, taxonomically, about them that you couldn't say about us? We also know they had campfires, a habit that scores one in the human collumn for them. So they cooked their meat, which makes them seem human, and therefore could eat meat even though they didn't have cat teeth or dog jaws or some such. They ate meat anyway dispite their fructavore design because they had fire, just like us. Why aren't you at the article Neanderthal saying these same things about them? If you really believe this line of argument proves we are vegans by nature, why doesn't it apply to them? By your logic, you should be making the same arguement over on the neanderthal talk page, so you should go do that. But I don't because you'd be wrong. Even though those things you say are true, the evidence that neanderthals were almost pure carnivores trumps anything you might think by comparing the length of thier intestines or talking about their teeth. Chrisrus (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC) There's evidence that the neanderthals suffered the consequences of adopting an unnatural diet. The same applies to humans. Pearl999 (talk) 12:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC) Underground roots and tubers would have been an important nutritional addition to the diet of Australopithecus during short periods of above-ground food scarcity. Their dental and microwear patterns are compatible with the additions of roots to a chimpanzee-like diet (Hatley and Kappelman, 1980; Grine and Kay, 1988). http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes/conferences/wburg/posters/nconklin/conklin.html Yes, humans are omnivores and eat roots. There's no mention of flesh-eating above. Humans can be omnivorous (behaviour), but that still doesn't mean that humans are omnivores (biology). Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) WP says 'Omnivores... are species that eat both plants and animals as their primary food source'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Geologist Frank Brown, dean of the University of Utah's College of Mines and Earth Sciences, says that while the emergence of Homo sapiens is about 195,000 years ago, evidence of eating fish, of harpoons, even tools. comes in very late (appearing together with cultural artifacts as a coherent package only about 50,000 years ago), except for stone knife blades, which appeared between 50,000 and 200,000 years ago. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050223122209.htm Professor of anthropology and physiology Jared Diamond wrote in The Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpazee (pp.33-34) that there is good evidence of human hunting skills only around 100,000 years ago, and that it's clear they were very ineffective big-game hunters. According to professor of anthropology Robert W. Sussman, some archaeologists and paleontologists don't think humans had a modern, systematic method of hunting until as recently as 60,000 years ago. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38011 Thus it's very unlikely that animal flesh was a primary source of food for at least the first 140,000 years from the emergence of Homo sapiens, and the species didn't suddenly become biological omnivores thereafter any more than cows fed animal protein. Pearl999 (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) A review of Plio-Pleistocene archaeology found site location and assemblage composition to be indicative of low-yield scavenging in the context of competitive male displays, and not consistent with the idea that big game hunting and provisioning was responsible for the evolution of early Homo. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/hu/2002/00000043/00000006/art00604 Again nothing here says that humans have not evolved to eat meat only that meat eating did not play an important part in human evolution. These are not the same thing. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Nothing here (or anywhere, for that matter) says that humans have evolved (as in biological adaptation) to eat animal flesh. That's the point. Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) But nevertheless nearly all humans did eat meat. Sorry but that's an unsupported claim, and even if they did the biology hasn't changed. Pearl999 (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Early mastery of fire would have further increased the calories available from tubers (by 50%). Most wild yam species are non-toxic and available in large quantities throughout African forests and savannas (A. Hladik and Dounias, 1993). http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf Note that taro root is believed to be one of the earliest cultivated plants. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taro What is the relevance of this? That gathered foods including roots and tubers could have provided the energy needed to support human populations for most of human history. Arrowroot (taro) is found worldwide in temperate zones and the tropics. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/Appb.php And that's just one edible wild plant food source out of thousands. Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) The neanderthals are long extinct. Short lifespans and evidence of arthritis in their skeletons, systemic illness or a severely deficient diet. "no worse off than the Inuit"... http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/neander.htm Neanderthals lived for an amount of time as a species on this planet that dwarfs that of Homo Sapiens. That they had short, hard, brutal lives doesn't prove that their diet wasn't sufficient for them to survive long enough to reproduce, because they did and were very successful. The quote "no worse off than the Inuit" in that context was meant to say that they weren't much less unhealthy than modern hunter-gatherers. The point is, you agree that everything that you say about human tooth/jaw structure could also be applied to them. They didn't have typical carnivore anatomy either, but you agree that they not only ate meat but ate it much, much more than we do. How are able to accept the fact that neanderthals ate meat but not that humans do? How can you point to the teeth and such and say "this is proof that humans don't eat meat" and then turn around and say the same evidence in neanderthals doesn't prove that, because other evidence showing that they did eat meat trumps the tooth form evidence? Chrisrus (talk) 06:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC) Homo sapiens emerged about 195,000 years ago. 'By 130,000 years ago, complete Neanderthal characteristics had appeared. These characteristics then disappeared in Asia by 50,000 years ago and in Europe by 30,000 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal. According to new dating evidence the last neanderthals in Europe died out 37,000 years ago - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100126220321.htm. I've not denied that ancient humans consumed some animal flesh, but noted that it was unlikely that it could have been a primary source of food until humans had developed an efficient method of hunting. With regards to dentition, the use of cutting tools and tenderising by cooking enables the eating of animal flesh. Cooking also makes it safer to eat. (Early scavenging was avoided as a bad dietary strategy.... http://www.jstor.org/pss/3630928) Pearl999 (talk) 16:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC) Or this? You: "we know practically for sure that they (neanderthals) ate meat, meat, meat, and then for dessert some meat. ... there's no doubt at all that they weren't vegetarians. .... think about eskimos, they didn't eat any vegetables at all. How do you explain that?" As it goes, the Inuit ("eskimos") traditionally went to great lengths to gather available plant foods. I'd give you an authoritative quote from a post to a public forum but sorry that's been deemed by the WPTB to be copyright violation.. Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Yes, of course, no one maintains that humans are exclusively carnivorous but they can clearly survive and reproduce on a wide range of diets. That makes them omnivoresMartin Hogbin (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC) No, it does not. Humans have no biological carnivorous adaptations whatsoever, and the omnivorous diet is associated with disease and premature death... Pearl999 (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Clinical and epidemiological nutritional studies consistently reveal health benefits from the consumption of plant-based foods and conversely, significant increase in the risk of chronic degenerative diseases with the consumption of animal-based foods. According to the findings of the most comprehensive large study there was no evidence of a threshold beyond which further benefits did not accrue with increasing proportions of plant-based foods in the diet. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1667679 Pearl999 (talk) 15:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Eating too much of anything is bad for you. Many humans do that now, because they can.Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Please read it again. An 'ability' to do something doesn't mean that you should be doing it and that there won't be severely detrimental consequences from doing it. Pearl999 (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC) That was my point. Humans eat too much of certain foodstuffs because they are now much more freely available than they were historically. Most notable are fat (animal origin) and sugar (vegetable origin). Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC) Please acknowledge what's posted just above? Pearl999 (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC) I honestly can't believe the guys at the Frugivore article sent Pearl to the Human article to make trouble, as if there isn't enough here already. I'd suggest you fellows review her contributions over there, just in case you're curious what has already been debunked, etc... [Edited to add: This comment was very poorly worded. My apologies to Visionholder.] 12.19.84.33 (talk) 17:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Ok, that comment above is me. I don't know why it won't log me in when I tell it to, but it's evil. >.< Also, you might note that this Linnaeus guy Pearl keeps pulling out died in 1778. J.M. Archer (talk) 17:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC) You can't show a single thing I've posted here or there that's been "debunked". Maybe the guys at Frugivore Talk were looking for some assistance? What part of what Linnaeus determined would you care to try to dispute? Pearl999 (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC) Okay... first of all, I did not send Pearl999 here to "make trouble." After being thoroughly shot down over her attempted edits, she proceeded to use the talk page as a forum, which it is not. Since she claimed that her view was about content, I pointed her here since I found it suspicious that someone would choose to push their agenda on an important but not heavily watched page, especially when the material (if it were valid) would clearly belong on this page. Since she clearly wasn't going to drop this, I sent her to an article where 1) a larger number of people could demonstrate that her views are a minority and not supported by the literature, and 2) the topic could be discussed under a more appropriate page, since in good faith, Pearl999 appears to genuinely want to improve the article. As for "wanting assistance", I wouldn't start feeling too terribly proud, Pearl999. Your views were clearly shot down at Talk:Frugivore. We didn't need any help. You clearly plan to beat this dead horse until its nothing but glue. You keep changing your argument from saying that humans are "obligate frugivores" to just "frugivores" just because our anatomy suggests that our ancestors at one point evolved adaptations for such a diet, regardless of the fact that hominids have eaten meat for millions of years to varying degrees. (That, by definition, is an omnivore.) You are clearly trying to push an agenda, which appears to be coming from the animal rights end of the spectrum. You have even thrown insults at admins. This behavior has to stop. Any edits you make concerning this topic will be reverted, so you might as well just give it up. I will say this to you one last time: WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FORUM! – VisionHolder « talk » 01:22, 19 March 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry, Vision; I should have worded that much differently. J.M. Archer (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC) You actually need to demonstrate that my 'views' are "invalid". I made the case for humans being biological frugivores with short cites from the required published literature, and the evidence is clear. I said that I think it could be argued that humans are obligate frugivores in response to someone else raising that question, and if "obligate" has nothing to do with nutritional requirements in order to maintain good health, well that seems rather strange to me. But anyway it is a separate issue, discussed separately, not changing back-and-forth. It has been said that the definition of an omnivore is a species that consumes both plant and animal matter as a primary source. See above. Pearl999 (talk) 12:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC) In common use, the term omnivore may be used to describe both a) what an animal does and b) what an animal is. This article addresses the suggestion that humans are biologically omnivores, because this is what people infer when they say "humans are omnivores". http://www.free-ebooks.net/ebook/Are-Humans-Omnivores-/html/1 Pearl999 (talk) 17:18, 19 March 2010 (UTC) I am stating that your views are not supported by the current, predominant academic literature. The sources you have cited have been either very old, from people outside the field (such as Percy Bysshe Shelley), are from unreliable sources (such as your latest link to a "free book" by John Coleman... whoever that is), or do not support your view (by not explicitly stating that humans are frugivores). My point is that you can't find a source, and even if you could find one, it would not overturn the majority opinion in the academic literature. Wiki is an encyclopedia. By trying to gather your own evidence, you are violating WP:NOR... basically doing your own research and trying to put it on Wiki. Please understand that the term "omnivore" includes eating fruit... as well as leaves, animal matter, etc. If you're going to argue that humans are frugivores since they eat fruit and well-adapted for it, then you can equally label almost every omnivore as a frugivore. For example, on the Ring-tailed lemur article, they are called "opportunistic omnivores." The majority of their diet is fruit and leaves, but because they will readily consume animal matter, that is what the literature calls them. The literature does not say that the Ring-tailed Lemur is a frugivore, folivore, and a carnivore. There's a reason for that. But regardless of their reasons, we go by the academic literature. If for some reason Wayne Pacelle wrote an article for the Humane Society of the United States noting that the Ring-tailed Lemur is a frugivore, that still wouldn't overrule the academic literature. The Wiki article would not change. Likewise, you will not find in the literature what you want. If it were there, one of us would have changed the article already. – VisionHolder « talk » 00:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC) Props to you, Visionholder! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC) What you are saying is again really incorrect. My views are indeed supported by recent academic literature. I've cited anthropologists, nutritional research, and even the older sources were, with the exception of Shelley, authorities in the study of human anatomy. A review of what I've posted confirms what I've just said, even with the massive deletion of material (I recommend following the links provided). John Coleman, yes, like myself, has done a great deal of research, and sources are referenced. Pearl999 (talk) 11:09, 21 March 2010 (UTC) Your recent academic references did not clearly state that humans are classified as frugivores. They argued that humans eat fruit and have for a long time. I remember you quoted Robert Sussman, a prominent anthropologist. You felt that he was arguing that humans are frugivores. Here's a short quote from Dr. Sussman related to this matter: "Many primates, including man, are omnivorous (Harding 1981, Sussman 1987, Martin 1990)." Source: Sussman, R.W. (2003). "Chapter 1: Ecology: General Principles". Primate Ecology and Social Structure. Pearson Custom Publishing. p. 8. ISBN 978-0536743633. Except for your animal rights literature, no one with a relevant degree is arguing that humans are frugivorous over omnivorous. They are simply arguing that humans have evolved from mostly frugivorous primates and that a sizable amount of our diet includes vegetable matter (possibly in response to the Atkins Diet craze). Be careful not to synthesize material from multiple sources to advance your argument (WP:SYNTH). – VisionHolder « talk » 18:10, 21 March 2010 (UTC) The dietary status of the human species is that of an unspecialised frugivore. http://www.springerlink.com/content/rr78052089583418/ Pearl999 (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC) We're essentially debating here how humans should be classified in the -vory categories of animal diet (herbivore, omnivore, carnivore, frugivore, folivore, insectivore, granivore, vermivore, etcetera). The way such a debate should be resolved is by determining what sources like the book Visionholder cites have to say—high-quality, reliable sources that summarize academic knowledge, rather than centuries-old works and quote-mined primary research papers. Ucucha 18:51, 21 March 2010 (UTC) Measurements of human gut size are grouped on the best fit line of the frugivores (Hladik et al., 1999). http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf Pearl999 (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC) this is all so much ideological nonsense. The shift to scavenging was absolutely crucial to the emergene of the Homo genus. I do not think that this is disputed. The entitre point is, yes, anatomically Australopithecines and early Homo were "frugivores", which put them under strong pressure to adapt their behaviour, i.e. to invent tools, which is the first step in a chain of events that produced humans in the first place. "Humans are frugivores" is much like saying "humans are apes". Not absolutely wrong from a purely anatomical point of view, but ignoring worlds of differences in behaviour. If you want to focus on items that are shared by hhumans and great apes, I suggest you edit the Hominidae. The Human article will naturally focus on modern (behaviorally modern) humans. If you want to discuss the biology of early humans, you want Homo. --dab (𒁳) 13:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC) Low-yield scavenging in the context of competitive male displays cannot account for the significant changes in life history now seen to distinguish early humans from ancestral australopiths. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00006/art00604 The high quality foods needed to provide enough energy for the incipient hominids could have been drawn from alternative sources. http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf The biology of modern humans is relevant, and that's what I've been getting at all along. Pearl999 (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC) It is obvious that no one in this debate, including me up till now, had even bothered to check the article frugivore to see what the word means. It doesn't mean "vegan" or "vegetarian" or even "obligate frugivore". All it means, according to that article, is an omnivore that often eats fruit. Therefore, saying that humans are "frugivores" is about as contravertial as saying that we have elbows. We could add it to the article with no citation as no one who understands the word would challenge it; everyone knows that humans are an omnivore whose diet tends to include fruit. Even if it were challenged, you could easily cite a statement to the effect of "fruit is one of the things that people eat". I don't see the point, however, because the word is used in the sources there mostly to discuss an important element in the distribution of seeds for fruit-bearing plants, so it's a useful concept in that context. Here, we must say that humans are omnivorous, but calling us "frugivores" would single out one element of our omnivorous diet for special emphasis above all others, and I don't see the point of that. Ipso Facto, unless the article frugivore is wrong about what the word means, this entire debate could have been dealt with by simply reading the first sentence of that article, proving that it pays to READ THE ARTICLE about something before TALKING ABOUT IT (myself included). Chrisrus (talk) 18:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC) The ambiguous term omnivore is used to emphasize a supplement of meat included from time to time in a mainly frugivorous diet. http://www.publicaciones.cucsh.udg.mx/pperiod/esthom/esthompdf/esthom19/21-31.pdf First, as a point of order, please make it clear when you are talking to me and when you are pulling a quote out of context to have someone else respond to me for you. Yes, as far as I know, the term "omnivore" is used, when discussing Chimpanzees and such, more to emphasize that they do regularly also eat meat, but the fact is that not all chimps do eat meat, because many females and young chimps are prevented from doing so by the big males that tend to hog it all. So the source has a point, I don't know if the point is also yours, but yes, it might better be said that many chimps are omnivores, but some aren't. But I thought we were talking about people, who tend to let their women and children eat meat, unlike chimps. Second, please tell me now if you and I are using the word "fugivore" the same way. As I have asked you before, do you think it means "animal that often eats fruit" or "animal that eats fruit, not meat"? Because it seems like you mean the latter. If so, please read the first sentences of the article frugivore and notice that that article defines it as any animal whose diet features fruit, regardless of what it eats the rest of the time or what the proportion is. I need to know if I disagree with you or not if we are to continue this conversation. Chrisrus (talk) 07:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC) I'm sticking as closely to repeating the authorities referenced as possible. Claude Marcel Hladik has been conducting field research for about thirty years, analysing the diet composition of 38 primate species in their natural setting (http://www.ecoanthropologie.cnrs.fr/pdf/page_HLADIK.pdf ). As you've rightly noted, animal flesh is rarely available to females and never exploited by the youngest animals. Small mammals may likewise be captured and consumed by chimps in the context of male displays. You yourself are emphasizing a supplement of flesh included from time to time in a mainly frugivorous diet with your use of the word "regularly" in order to say that many chimps are omnivores. Understand that omnivore (n.) is commonly seen as reference to animals who have appropriate and necessary evolutionary flesh- and plant-eating physiological adaptations (e.g. bears and hogs). Some chimps could at a stretch be described as omnivorous (adj.), if we accept that to mean any consumption of animal flesh at all for whatever reason, however occasional it is and small in amount. While many humans are today indeed omnivorous, the human digestive tract is that of a frugivore, naturally suited to a flexible diet that can, parallel to the chimpanzee, include occasional small amounts of animal matter, edible shoots, leaves, and so on, but which consists primarily of fruit and seeds. To maintain that humans are natural omnivores, you really need to show: a.) evidence of carnivorous biological adaptation, and, b.) that humans are capable of consuming significant amounts of animal matter without adverse effects to human health.. Pearl999 (talk) 14:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC) So you agree with your sources that humans and our closest hominid ancestors and cousins did eat fruit, tubers, nuts, and meat, but that we couldn't eat as much meat and tubers originally until we had started regularly cooking, as tubers and meat are too tough without cooking. You are, or you aren't, trying to say that it's not human nature to eat tubers and meat. Or are you? Chrisrus (talk) 05:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Australopithecus afarensis didn't have the dental adaptations necessary to eat animal flesh (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38011), but dental and microwear patterns exhibited by Australopithecus are compatible with the additions of roots to a chimpanzee-like diet (http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes/conferences/wburg/posters/nconklin/conklin.html). Pearl999 (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC) There was no evidence of a threshold beyond which further benefits did not accrue with increasing proportions of plant-based foods in the diet. The American journal of cardiology ISSN 0002-9149 CODEN AJCDAG http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1667679 Pearl999 (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Humans evolved from Autralopithecine apes "In a 1979 preliminary microwear study of Australopithecus fossil teeth, anthropologist Alan Walker theorized that robust australopiths were largely frugivorous.[9] However, newer methods of studying fossils have suggested the possibility that Australopithecus was omnivorous. In 1992, trace element studies of the strontium/calcium ratios in robust australopith fossils suggested the possibility of animal consumption, as they did in 1994 using stable carbon isotopic analysis.[10] Australopithecus mainly ate fruit, vegetables, and tubers" (Alticle on Australopithecus) [Italics and Bold added]. The word "mainly" is different from "entirely," and it must be noted that the Genus Homo (humans) diverged from the Genus Australopithecus (Australopithecine apes). So, while plants are supposed to be an important part of our diet, we did not evolve as exclusive plant eaters as some of you are trying to insist. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 02:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Professor of anthropology Robert W. Sussman, Ph.D. has stated that Australopithecus afarensis was not dentally pre-adapted to eat meat. They didn't have the sharp shearing blades necessary to retain and cut animal flesh. They simply couldn't eat meat. (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/38011.php). Furthermore, carrion avoidance is a dietary strategy in primates as a response to the association of gastrointestinal illness with the ingestion of contaminated meat from scavenged carcasses. (http://www.jstor.org/pss/3630928) Pearl999 (talk) 11:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Just look at the more recent studies cited in that article. Anyway, how does Australopithecus even fall under the field of anthropology? When are our ancestors old enough to fall under paleontology instead? Actually, I could scratch that argument and still prove this point. Anyway, assuming that Australopithecine apes could digest straight-chain cellulose (i.e. had the enzyme to break Beta bonds), that is an ability we have lost, in which case that's one adaptation to a small (5% or 10%) proportion of meat in the diet. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 22:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Sorry, but what more recent studies? Sussman's research is based on studying the fossil evidence dating back nearly seven million years. You know what's said about assuming, right? Really relevant (and supported by science) is the evidence of the greater number of copies of the AMY1 gene, indicating increased ability to digest large quantities of starch. (You can read about the study at http://thexvials.blogspot.com/2008/02/planet-of-starch-eaters.html ..) Pearl999 (talk) 12:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC) I was referring to the more recent studies here: [[8]], in the Diet Section of that Article. They were more recent than some of the ones you cited earlier. Since omnivores are partial plant-eaters by definition, they can digest starch without problems. I was talking about straight-chain cellulose, which has strong Beta links that starch polymers do not have. Humans can not digest this molecule. Exclusive plant-eaters can. That is a chemical adaptation to perhaps a tiny fraction of the diet as meat, but still a fraction. We lack the enzyme to break Beta bonds. Period. Did our Australopithecine ancestors have the ability to digest cellulose (straight-chain, not starch) or not? If they did, that means we have adapted biologically to a diet that was somewhat different than theirs. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 04:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC) The two australopithecines from South Africa, as well as the two species of Homo from South Africa and Tanzania, show considerable variation between individuals in all cases, but do not approach the extreme C4 dietary component of A. boisei. http://www.scielo.org.za/pdf/sajs/v104n3-4/a1610404.pdf Many sedges are C4. The rhizomes and culms of many sedge species provide starchy food all year round (Haines and Lye 1983, Peters et al., 1992; van der Merwe et al., 2008). The author, Marion K. Bamford, thinks that this plant group has been greatly underestimated as a staple food. (Foods Available to Early Hominins). A. boisei clearly had a diet that included a lot of C4 plants. (The Diets of Early Hominins from South Africa and Tanzania: Isotopic Evidence) http://www.socarchsci.org/bulletin/SAS3202.pdf . And yet again the question remains: even if early Homo was opportunistically eating some animal matter, and especially in certain environmental conditions, how does that constitute evidence of carnivorous biological adaptation? Frugivores don't need to digest cellulose (it becomes necessary fibre that aids in digestive transit), as our molar teeth are adapted to mash and grind fruits, roots and other succulent parts of vegetables, thus breaking the plant cell walls and releasing the nutrients within. (Mastication is important in humans :) Pearl999 (talk) 13:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC) Other parts of a plant cell contain starch, but not so much the walls. Those are mostly straight-chain Beta-bonded cellulose. An inability to digest cellulose, is, for the most part, an inability to break down the plant cell wall proper, contrary to your explanation. Much of the reason that frugivores needn't digest cellulose is that they, unlike herbivores (grazers), are not quite entirely exclusive to plants. Recall the fact that most jungle apes do eat insects. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC) Frugivores don't need to digest the plant cell walls, because they are broken through the process of mastication. Frugivores (the larger primates) may ingest or eat insects, but they constitute a very small proportion of the diet. Pearl999 (talk) 10:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC) Why are the dietary habits of Australopithecus discussed on Talk:Human? This belongs on Talk:Australopithecus. The dietary habits of humans are beyond dispute, I hope, as they are directly observable. Please stop turning this into a discussion of what humans "should" eat. Humans have eaten a diet of meat, eggs, berries, nuts, grain, fruit etc. for 2 million years and they still do so now. I honestly don't see what can be disputed about that. The only thing that can be argued about is the addition of milk products since the Neolithic and the development of adult lactose tolerance in Eurasia but not elsewhere. --dab (𒁳) 10:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC) This isn't about dietary habits (behaviour), but biological fact. Pearl999 (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC) When you say "this isn't about..." what do you mean by "this"? We are supposed to be discussing the article, specifically the section about dietary habits/behavior of humans. You agree it should say that the human diet has typically included meat; you don't suggest that this fact be removed from the article: human diets typically include meat. But vegans don't die, and in fact are healthier. And this bears mentioning, it does prove something about the human diet. Something like "even though...includes meat, it doesn't have to/shouldn't". That's a rational position, if proven. If I'm wrong about this and what you want is the removal of the fact that the human diet has/does include meat, you are doomed to failure because people eat meat. The best you can hope for is "...includes meat..., however,..."Chrisrus (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2010 (UTC) Thank you. Would you interpret "human diets typically include meat" to mean that "most of mankind for much of human history has subsisted on near-vegetarian diets", and that "the vast majority of the population of the world today continues to eat vegetarian or semi-vegetarian diets..."? [Position paper on the vegetarian approach to eating, Journal of the American Dietetic Association 77(1980):61-69]. "This" referring to the clarification that while human diets may include significant amounts of 'foods' derived from other animals, human biology is that of a frugivore, not omnivore. Pearl999 (talk) 11:04, 13 April 2010 (UTC) Martin Hogbin in the above subsection had a point earlier when he talked about moderation. Too much meat is a bad thing, but complete vegetarianism, or even more so veganism, makes it harder to find a sufficient supply of easily digestible proteins. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC) The American Dietetic Association concludes that a well-planned vegan diet is healthful and nutritious for adults, infants, children and adolescents and can help prevent and treat chronic diseases including heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090701103002.htm More evidence that even "moderation" is harmful: Ischemic heart disease mortality for the highest third of intake compared with the lowest third - 3.29 (1.50, 7.21) for total animal fat, 2.77 (1.25, 6.13) for saturated animal fat, and 3.53 (1.57, 7.96) for dietary cholesterol. No protective effects were noted for fish, and the consumption of eggs and cheese were both positively associated with ischemic heart disease mortality. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/525S . Pearl999 (talk) 11:04, 13 April 2010 (UTC) I mention again the shortage of exercise that most Americans get. I read your cited abstract on the Masai, and it says their fat consumption was higher in the first place than that of American men. The higher fat consumption balanced off the positive effect of greater activity. Had they consumed the same levels of animal fat in the first place, they would have felt the benefit of more exercise. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC) The above study involved subjects recruited in the United Kingdom, not Americans. It is speculated that the Masai's physical activity causes their coronary vessels to be protectively capacious, but their aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis, regardless. (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26). I doubt that it could be said that lives in rural China were sedentary, and their animal protein intake was very low, about 10% of US intake, yet coronary artery disease mortality rates were inversely associated with the frequency of intake of green vegetables and plasma erythrocyte monounsaturated fatty acids, and positively associated with plasma apolipoprotein B, which is positively associated with animal protein intake. (The American journal of cardiology ISSN 0002-9149 CODEN AJCDAG http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1667679 ). Pearl999 (talk) 13:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC) For some reason, the Abstract still says equal rates of atherosclerosis after higher (not equal) fat intake than that of Americans. In any case, the USA and UKGB are both "1st World" industrialized countries, and would be much more similar in lifestyle to each other than to the Masai. Furthermore, I will point out that even the very most active of present-day humans are not quite as active as the original evolutionary Homo sapiens. In one of their great migrations, our ancestors literally walked all the way from what is now Saudi Arabia to Siberia, in what the fossil record shows to be a shorter amount of time than has ever since been achieved since on foot. (A week or 2 is it estimated? Across all of Eurasia in such time!) Good luck to the most active Chinese or Masai peasant to repeat that feat. The comparison just doesn't stack up in terms of activity when it comes to how we actually evolved. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC) Exercise may be able to help by reducing the amount of fat in the blood, but this cannot be considered to be an evolutionary carnivorous adaptation. Naturally carnivorous species do not develop atherosclerosis no matter how much animal fat and protein they consume, and even in relatively very inactive domestic dogs it's extremely rare. Pearl999 (talk) 12:19, 18 April 2010 (UTC) Omnivores would not have the exact same adaptations as pure carnivores. Dogs are pure carnivores, not omnivores. All omnivores are partial plant eaters. 1. It's true that we can't bite into live prey, which shows we're not pure carnivores, and no one is arguing that. 2. We also can't digest cellulose (again, straight-chain, not starch) as pure plant-eaters can. 3. Back then as now, fruits were not that widely available on the Savanna where fruit-bearing trees were (and still are) a very sparse part of the plant community. Homo sapiens evolved in that habitat, not in the tree-rich (and fruit-rich) jungles of our frugivorous relatives known as gorillas, and chimps, and so forth. (If anything, the slightly lower temperatures of the 4th Ice Age would have made tree populations there even sparser than today.) The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC) Whyis Pearl999 allowed to talk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.188.2.88 (talk) 20:44, 18 April 2010 (UTC) Pearl, have you said specifically what and exactly how you would like the article changed? You have to have a proposal; "I want to add this in this place" or "I want to delete this" or what it is we are discussing doing to the article. Otherwise, we're not talking about ways to improve the article which means you would have to stop doing what you're doing on this talk page. You have accepted that humans are omnivores. You have accepted that humans do, in fact eat meat. Are you saying our ancient ancestors did not eat meat? All hunter-gatherers living today or in historical memory ate meat. You are saying early Homo sapians did not eat meat? If you are talking about something other than fully modern humans, it's not for this article. This article is only about fully modern humans. What do you want to change about the article? Chrisrus (talk) 05:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

First line

The first line of text here is wrong

Humans commonly refers to the species Homo sapiens (Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man")

Homo sapiens actually means 'same thought' as any linguist should know, hence homosexuality, homogeneous, and other 'homo' prefix terms referring to things being the same. Not a particularly good start to the article.

212.159.89.142 (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Not true. Homo or homeo is Greek for "same", but homo is also Latin for human (stem homin-). And sapiens is not a noun, so the translation is correct. —Soap— 19:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

"any linguist" indeed. Sometimes "anyone can edit" is a heavy burden. --dab (𒁳) 10:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Picture in anatomy

I think that either we get a pic w/ pubic hair or just have an image of skeleton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportsdude15 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Suggest a replacement candidate and we can talk about it. Before we have a valid candidate it is futile to debate the drawbacks of the currently used image. --dab (𒁳) 10:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The note that I added to the caption about the removal and trimming of hair at least stops the current image from being misleading. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Diversity in Pics

I find it very interesting how the photographs that accompany this article all are of non-whites. Is this what diversity is now? Non-white? If this sounds racist, then imagine if the above sentence read that there were no blacks in the pictures. Or hispanics, or asians, etc.

I do not post this in any attempt to be racist or antagonistic; rather, I am hoping that those in power will take a look at what I am saying here and agree that some more actual diversity is in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.32.192.33 (talk) 19:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Clearly you didn't even look at all the pictures. I counted three with white subjects. Mkemper331 (talk) 16:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

New Evidence

New evidence from sequence of neanderthal DNA suggests that "Mitochondrial DNA and fossil evidence indicates that modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago" may be inaccurate. Needs further review. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.57.21.187 (talk) 03:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

If you are refering to the recent finding of Neanderthal-Modern Human admixture by Svante Pääbo within the Science article [9], the evidence of admixture in the sequencing was found not on mtDNA or Y-chromosomal DNA per se, but within derived SNP's (single-nucleotide polymorphisms). The article states that Neandertals often share derived single-nucleotide polymorphism alleles with present-day humans. I haven't read the whole article, but I think that is what it is generally saying; that the SNP's are the subject of concern.

Modern human mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosomal DNA still come from African ancestors between 200,000 and 80,000 years ago, so the RAO model still holds. -Ano-User (talk) 15:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)