Talk:Swedes

Suggestions for the last picture

Some of us want August Strindberg if we don't have Ingvar Kamprad. And some of you want Tove Jansson (who is Finnish). As is even mentioned in this article the opinion of whether or not finlandssvenskar are Swedes is a very controversial subject and something most finlandssvenskar themselves will deny. Most see themselves not as ethnic Finns but as their own ethnicity. Either way - due to the controversial nature of this subject I amongst others disagree with having a finlandssvensk in the picture box. And since the opposition does not like the suggestions of August Strindberg or Ingvar Kamprad we'll have to find an alternative. And since the opposition's main dislike is not having an ethnic Swede residing outside of Sweden in the box this is what we'll find suggestions of.

Possible candidates: Carl Sandburg (writer), Charles Lindbergh (aviator), Harry Nyquist (engineer), Robert Englund (actor)

Any more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilyserbia (talk • contribs) 14:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I still think Tove Jansson is the best person to represent Swedes living outside of present Swedish borders. And besides that, all you suggestions are males and they also are people with Swedish ancestry. Närking (talk) 10:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, with Narking. It's rather ridiculous to claim that a Swedish descent and unilingually Swedish person cannot be Swede, and worst, not to even provide a source for such controversial claim. Finland-Swedes are not "from Sweden" in the modern national-state meaning of the word, nor do they represent the political interest of the state of the Sweden (although, usually, if not always these interest are mutual), they neither hail Carl Gustav as their king, but so what? This article is not about people who express their political loyality exclusively to Swedish state, nor about people with tax records in Sweden. This is about historical and contemporary Swedish ethnicities, which can be found within the borders of Finland, Sweden & USA (and in the past in Estonia). Moreover, Finland-Swedes as population trace their language/culture/folklore directly to proto-Swedish (fornsvenska). It's not some seperate, fourth Northern-Germanic/Scandinavian nationality as some scholars assumed in the 19th century.Podomi (talk) 20:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Because Tove Jansson is not ethnically Swedish. It doesn't matter whether her dad is an ethnic Swede since living in finlandssvensk culture she assimilated into that ethnic group. Those men I mentioned are not Swedish nationals, were not raised in Sweden, but ARE ethnic Swedes since they retain a Swedish culture identity (which comes from being raised in a multicultural society). Tove was raised in a finlandssvenskt environment as a finlandssvensk. If you don't agree with one I'll pick one and add it later (and we can go back to the game of changing pictures constantly). The fact that you have something against there being more men than women in the box suggests you are inherently sexist. None of that in this article please. --Lilyserbia (talk) 00:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Your view on ethnicity is rather one sided, I know that in Finland it is very common to assume that geography is the highest form of ethnicity (a legacy of Henrik Porthan in the 18th century) but everywhere else the Finnish way of perceiving ethnicity is quite alien.

Anyway, Tove Jansson mother was Mainland-Swede, father Finland-Swede. Besides, even if the article was about affinity to state of Sweden, which it is not, nevertheless, we'd still have sound reasons to add Finland-Swedes. The above citat is by a Finland-Swedish scholar, Charlotta Hedberg (2005) who studies Finland-Swedes (So much for the "very controversial", something which the Finns are so keen to propagate everytime the question is about Finland-Swedes Sweden-contacts.

”It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the practical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden” .(Hedberg, 2005 "Finland-Swedish wheel of migration")

This article, although only a journalist piece, illustrates also the issue from Finland-Swedish perspective, "Finlandssvenskar är svenskar". Finland-Swedes often ciritize the state of Sweden for the (alleged) nonchalance of Swedish state towards Finland-Swedes,http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/finlandssvenskar-ar-svenskar_223187.svdPodomi (talk) 17:15, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It's obviously impossible to discus this in a normal way with Lilyserbia who prefer to attack people and call them racists and sexists as long as they don't share her/his view.

Podomi has already answered but here are some more notes. I recently read a comment in Hufvudstadsbladet (a Finland-Swedish newspaper for those who don't know) from a Finland-Swede who said that he is a finländare, Finlands-svensk and svensk. Never thought of that? Just as much as I am a närking I'm also a Swede. I have relatives who are Finland-Swedes and they are as much Swedes as I am. Närking (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

You can quote as many people's opinions as you like - it won't change the fact that this is a controversial subject. I'm making the new picture now. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I ask you to pay attention to the academic, scholar article, I introduced, by Hedberg (2005).Podomi (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I have "ethnic affinity" with Norway and could easily move there - that doesn't make me Norwegian. No one is denying finlandssvenskar are Scandinavians, just that they're not Swedes. I could give you various examples of culture clashes faced by Swedes who move to finlandsvenska areas in Finland along with different social anthropological studies claiming finlandssvenskar are not Swedes. But that's not the point. The point is that I disagree with Tove Jansson being Swedish - and therefore I will keep on removing her from the box. If anything what studies in social anthropology tells us is that there is no right answer to this question. In short a Swede is nothing more than a person who sees themselves as Swedish and who others see as Swedish. This is the definition used by SD as well. The only people who disagree are the far right who go on about racial pseudo-science. I am someone who does not see Tove as Swedish and am therefore exercising my rights in editing this article. And that's what it will always come down to.

I added Zlatan to the box now at someone else's request. He's very well-known and deserves to be there but I figured it would open up a can of worms. But the narrow-mindedness revealed in this thread tells me just what kind of people you are and frankly I don't care if it offends you. Even though he is of recent foreign descent he is assimilated. He considers himself 100% Swedish (as stated in interviews) and he is culturally Swedish given how he celebrates Swedish traditions. I gave you a chance to include an ethnic Swede raised outside of Sweden but now I think I'll focus more on showing someone who became an ethnic Swede through a process of assimilation - a forgotten group as well. There is more info about this in the Swedish wikipedia which I plan to translate into the English wikipedia when I have the time. --Lilyserbia (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Lilyserbia I think you are going over the line with this article. With the Finland Swedes issue as well as People with Swedish ancestry. Many of your arguments are conflicted, as exemplified by your views on the two above topics, and you weren't able to back it up with any source or reference other than your thoughts and opinions. According to Wikipedia's dispute page, it states that When you find a passage in an article that you find is biased or inaccurate, improve it if you can. If that is not easily possible, and you disagree with a point of view expressed in an article, don't just delete it. Rather, balance it with what you think is neutral. I strongly advice you from deleting all the people's hard work just because you see it as unfit. Try to present the other side of the argument in the same article. People who read this page will then make their own judgment, if the topic in question is even an issue for them at all. Nagbg (talk) 15:48, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's all clear that a discussion with Lilyserbia is impossible. Throwing accusations about other editors being racists and sexists won't help. And frankly it just tells more about the one who is labeling others. Närking (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll admit that calling people racists and sexists is out of line and that's just me being annoyed at this never-ending argument. Racialists tend to be racists more often than not though. Genetic markers are more common in certain ethnic populations but ethnicity as a racial biology is a pseudo-science. When it comes to the discussion about finlandssvenskar I simply can't be bothered trying to "prove" they're not Swedes. Because that is irrelevant. The controversiality of this issue is already dealt with in the article and it's up to the readers to read on if interested. What we're discussing now is pictures in a box and who we think deserve to be there for whatever reason. I'll give you this though - the fact that finlandssvenska immigrants to Sweden have their own Immigrant Institute (Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund i Sverige) sends the message that this is a separate ethnic group from Swedes rather than ethnic "Swedes moving to the motherland" as it were. Finlandssvenskar who move to Sweden are not referred to as Swedes - but as Sverigefinlandssvenskar (Sweden-Finland-Swedes). They are only referred to as Swedes (sometimes) in Finland. Ethnic Finns who move to Sweden are referred to as Sverigefinnar (Sweden-Finns).

@Nagbg: What have I deleted (recently)? What about all the picture montages I've spent time making that have quickly been replaced? You want my argument as relevant to the topic at hand? I don't believe Tove Jansson has a big legacy at all. Does anyone outside of Finland even know who she is? Ingvar Kamprad and Zlatan are internationally known figures that put Swedes on the map. Carl Sandburg not as much and Charles Lindbergh would probably be a better option to have as an example of a foreign-born Swede. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again you have shown it's just your own personal view you are fighting for. It's not more strange that the Finland-Swedes have their clubs in Sweden than people from Dalarna have their clubs in Stockholm or Göteborg. If you think that is proving your point you are surely mistaken yourself.

And secondly, when it comes to Tove Jansson you surely are showing your lack of knowledge. Why do you think one of the most popular Russian rock bands have chosen the name Mumiy Troll? Because of some obscure Finland-Swedish writer? Närking (talk) 06:14, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Whether Finland-Swedes are an ethnic group of their own is irrelevant. This article is about all Swedish ethnicities, not just those within the borders of current national state of Sweden. The culture/language/folklore of Finland-Swedes hails directly from proto-Swedish. How could we exclude such a group from an article about Swedish ethnicity?Podomi (talk) 07:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

@Narking: It's not a "club" - it's a cultural institute and like all other immigrant institutes its aim is to spread knowledge of the immigrant culture and to defend the rights of the ethnic minority within Swedish society. And also, Mumins are popular - not Tove Jansson.

@Podomi: There is no such thing as sub-ethnicities. Swedes and Norwegians are both of Germanic descent but they are separate ethnicities. A bit like how monkeys and humans share the same ancestor but are different species. Swedish and Finlandsvensk culture have a common ancestor but they have evolved separately. Or are you saying Swedes defy natural laws of cultural evolution? . --Lilyserbia (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund i Sverige is not an institute but a normal non-profit organization for the Swedes from Finland living in Sweden. Good you have found out that Mumin Trolls are known around the world. Next step for you could be to learn something about the author also. But that you again are threatening with an edit war doesn't make you a more serious editor. [1]. Närking (talk) 17:22, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

@LillySerbia, Norse and Danes speak a different language than do the Swedes, Finland-Swedes and Swedes share the same language which hails from proto-Swedish. Finland-Swedes can be considered as a seperate ethnicity or either as "Eastern Swedes". Both are ok. However, this difference of interpretation is not for us to decide. The article is about Swedish ethnicity and includes both (Mainland)-Swedish and (Finland)-Swedish ethnicties, if we want to see them as seperate, that is. Besides, Tove Janssons mother was a Mainland-Swede.Podomi (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

@Narking: In other words - an institute. And you'll see how serious I am at editing since I'll never give up on this. I gave you options but you've only been narrow-minded and considered only finlandssvenskar as appropriate for the box. You reap what you sow.

@Podomi: I can tell you've never studied linguistics or else you would know about the never-ending discussion about what makes a dialect as opposed to a language. Many people believe Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish are all dialects of the same language. In Sweden Meänkieli is an official minority language whilst in Finland it is considered a dialect of Finnish. Some people are fighting for the right to recognise Scanian as a language instead of a dialect of Swedish (and there is of course the more common discussion of whether Scanian is a dialect of Swedish or a dialect of Danish). This is some out of many examples. But apparently this is "not up for us to decide" so we may as well add some Norwegians in the box for good measure. --Lilyserbia (talk) 23:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund i Sverige is not an institute. You can read more about them here [2]. And I guess your next claim will be that Västgötar are their own ethnic group since they also have their own "institute"[3] or why not throw in the people from Dalarna also [4]. Närking (talk) 07:21, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

It's an institute. Check the dictionary. And the latter is up for discussion. Like I've said a Swede is someone who considers themselves Swedish and who other see as Swedish. Some Scanians do not see themselves as Swedish - there is even a party who wants to make Scania an independent country. These things are not clear cut and the only people who should be allowed in the box are people who are without a doubt Swedes. --Lilyserbia (talk) 09:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Please show me the dictionary who says Riksförbund can be translated as institute? Don't think you can fool anyone here since I'm pretty sure most people here understand Swedish.

So according to your logic there are no Swedes at all. Just västgötar, sörmlänningar, värmlänningar etc. First the Finland-Swedes were Finns, then they were only their own ethnic group, then there are no Swedes at all! Will be interesting to see what the next step will be.

And lastly it's not more strange that there are Swedes living in Finland than there are Russians living in Ukraine (and vice versa). Borders have changed due to wars etc but the people haven't. Närking (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Most people here may understand Swedish but you most certainly don't understand English. I was partly raised in Australia - I know what an institute is. I'm not sure you do though. An institute is an organisation with a stated purpose. Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund is an organisation whose goals are listed here:[5]. That they don't have "institute" in the title doesn't mean they're not an institute.

If you choose to see it that way. "It's up for discussion" is what I said. Some groups so-called "Swedishness" is more controversial than others.

Borders change, cultures evolve and ethnic groups both appear and disappear. Ålänningar are Swedes and Finland-Swedes are not. If you know any famous Ålanders you are free to add them in there. Otherwise we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've stopped adding the Zlatan picture for now but will continue to change the montage to include Carl Sandburg - unless someone else comes up with another idea that we can all agree on. --Lilyserbia (talk) 13:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, please show me a dictionary that says Riksförbund is the same as "Immigrant Institute" as you have claimed. Maybe it's an Australian dialect?

Interesting to see that Swedes exist again and that ålänningar can be included! How about österbottningar?[6]. Närking (talk) 14:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

A riksförbund is not an immigrant institute - Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund is an immigrant institute. See the difference? A dictionary? Just check wikipedia for a start or any online dictionary you can find if you must.

Åland is a part of Sweden in every way but legally - it is a Swedish community. Ostrobothnia is up for discussion. Tove Jansson and Linus Torvalds, however, are both from Helsinki. They are in no way Swedish - they are ethnic finlandssvenskar. There was a similar discussion going on in northern Sweden about whether "Finnish"-speakers in Tornedalen were Finns or their own ethnic group. Now it is widely accepted that they are their own ethnic group (Tornedalians) and their "dialect of Finnish" has been declared an official minority language in Sweden. Read more here. --Lilyserbia (talk) 15:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

It surely has nothing to do with this but you still haven't showed how Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund is an immigrant institute. It's an organisation for the Finland-Swedish clubs that exist in Sweden just like any other riksförbund.

So now österbottningar can be Swedes! But not åbolänningar [7]? If ålänningar are Swedes, how come they are members of Finlandssvenskarnas Riksförbund? Wasn't that an "immigrant institute" for Finns? Närking (talk) 15:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

And that's exactly what an institute is. I don't see what the problem is here? The reason I mentioned it is because the finlandssvenska riksförbund is organised as an immigrant institute (aka, has goals) as opposed to the more general "association" riksförbund. I think what your problem is is that you're assuming all institutes revolve around research. And most institutes do - but not all. Like I said, an institute simply refers to an organisation with clear goals. Some Riksförbunds are simply associate organisations whose members meet and socialize. The so-called "immigrant institutes" refers to the riksförbunds with goals geared at defending the rights of and spreading cultural knowledge about an ethnic minority. I hope that's clarified enough for you.

Did you read their page? Den kultur vi fört med oss har också till stor del helt svenska förtecken.

Compared to: Förbundet är centralorganisationen för i Sverige verksamma finlandssvenska ideella föreningar som vill främja finlandssvensk kultur och finlandssvenskarnas intressen i Sverige och Finland.

You need to realise there is a difference between Swedes living in Finland and Finland-Swedes, just like there is a difference between Finns living in Sweden and Tornedal-Finns. --Lilyserbia (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

You surely read in too much on that website. Of course all riksförbund have goals. Sveriges Hembygdsförbund are doing the same but I doubt anyone would call it an institute.

And yes, there are differences between Swedes living in Sweden and Finland. Just like there are big differences between those living in Ystad and those living in Kiruna. But we all are Swedes anyway.

And by the way Tornedal-Finns are considered as Finns by Finns in Finland. And the few Ingrians in Russia see themselves as Finns. Närking (talk) 18:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

And congratulations! Your 3rd revert in one day managed to get the article locked. Närking (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

And you're reading too much into the use of the term institute. Whether it's an institute or not is at the end of the day irrelevant. Their goals, however, are relevant.

Sure, and the Scanians are considered Danes by the people of Denmark. All this who is considered what by who mumbo-jumbo really highlights the fact that this is a controversial issue - which was my whole argument in the first place against having a Finland-Swede in the box.

Can't say I can complain about the lock since it was a bother trying to change the montages back. Why are you being so stubborn? I originally wanted a Swedish-raised person in the box but since you wanted an ethnic Swede raised outside of Sweden I COMPROMISED. Yet my wishes are still ignored. :( You forget there are no "right" or "wrong" answers when it comes to this - only people's opinions of who should be featured in the box. You cannot win when it comes to this so why try? I for one am open to further suggestions. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Linus Torvalds

I noticed that Linus Torvalds is pictured and listed as a Swede. Torvalds, however, is not Swedish but Finnish and should thus not be listed. 91.156.149.187 (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I changed it. People can argue all they want that Linus is Swedish but I don't buy it. Some disagree of course but I don't think it's right naming him as one of the "famous Swedes" because of the fact that it's such a controversial subject. --Lilyserbia (talk) 12:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

An easy way to avoid all tussles regarding citizenship is to have a seperate plate about Finland-Swedes, who are also part of Swedish nation, in the ethno-linguistic sense, and thus should be somehow recognized in the article, also visual wise. The plate could have for example Tove Jansson, Linus Torvalds, and perhaps the reknown voyager Adolf Nordenskiöld who later even switched his Russian citizenship to Swedish.Podomi (talk) 11:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think Finland-Swedes should be visible here also. For example Johan Ludvig Runeberg and Tove Jansson are surely both important contributors to the Swedish culture. Who isn't longing for "Sköna maj, välkommen" right now!

By the way, today someone suddenly has added pictures of several Finland-Swedes to the article about Finns. Närking (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with Narking. Indeed, Stockholm has even a street named after Runeberg whose epic-work ,Kung Fjalar, is regarded as one of the most important pieces of Swedish/Scandinavian literature. In addition to Tove Jansson there's the whole gang of Finland-Swedish decadent modernists (Södergran, Diktonius, Björling, Enckell etc), who had very crucial role in shaping Swedish literature.

It appears that all of the articles which have a (Finland)-Swedish connotation are subjected to very unconventional practises. For example, the article about "Swedish-speaking Finns" is already by its name very controversial. I tried to change it earlier back to the original "Finland-Swedes", which is direct translation from "finlandssvenskar", but these attempts were succesfully opposed by Finnish posters who generally seem to oppose the connection the Swedish connection. According to Canadian bi-lingual scholar, Kenneth McRae (1999) the Finnish intellectual have not accepted the multiculturalist creed, unlike states like Canada and Switzerland, and have been historically opposed the fact that Finland-Swedes refer themselves as "finlandssvenskar". According to the Finnish logic, all residents of Finland are "Finns". I find this as somewhat archaich, nationalistic view and even somewhat scary. Ironically we do not have this problem with the Sami's and Gypsies, who are referred as "Sami's" and "Gypsies" respectively without the "speaking"-wording in the end of the word indicating ethnicity.

The title of the "Swedish-speaking Finns", article should be put in its neutral form "Swedish-speaking population of Finland". In fact this version is also used in Finnish constitution (Svenskspråkig befolkning). I accept support for the change of title with great enthusiasm.

And I think that we should have Tove Jansson, instead of Linus, to highlight the Swedish cultural extension outside the state of Sweden. Tove is the third most transalated Swedish-writing author and was born to Mainland-Swedish mother (a father was finlandssvensk) thus it's lot more easier to defend the legitimacy of her presence in the visual gallery.Podomi (talk) 16:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Tove Jansson was on the original list I had but was voted out here on the talkpage because we already had Astrid Lindgren. But I don't mind changing to Tove instead of Linus. That would also mean more women in the picture.

And yes, the situation in Finland with the denial of a common history with Sweden is strange. And sadly it's also very visible in historical articles here. It's almost a joke that in the article about Turku it's not even mentioned that the city was known as Åbo for several hundred of years and that it was one of the most important cities in Sweden. Närking (talk) 18:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately Finland is still plagued very much by Ultra-nationalism, the collective inferiority complex of the Finnish-speaking nation adds its extra tinge to the whole movement.

It's common for Finnish-speakers to interprete the Finnish constitution, in regards to its language acts, that Swedish and Finnish are both languages of the state, instead of the languages of the respective nationalities, nationalitet (not to be confused with the concept of citizenship). That's why Finland-Swedes are referred as "Finns".

I am not sure whether the article of Helsinki/Helsingfors even bother to mention that the town established by Gustav Vasa, at the heart of Svenskfinland, was 99% Swedish-speaking in 1808 when the first population census was carried. The town coat of arms still has its viking ship after its initial settlers from Hälsingland.Podomi (talk) 19:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I've changed the picture to Tove Jansson now. And hopefully it will stay there for a while now. Närking (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it is fine to have Tove or Linus in the picture box. I don't understand why it keeps changing back and forth. Even though it has not been a part of Sweden for 200 years now but Swedish-Finns are closely related to Sweden historically, physically and culturally. Isn't that what ethnicity is all about? Simply identifying them as a part of the Swedish ethnicity does not mean that Sweden "claims" them as their own. This page is getting silly. It seems to me that we can only identity one's "Ethnic Swedishness" by the Tax Agency's records. Why are people making this such a difficult subject? The Swedish page is already one of the least informative pages from the ethnicity category, and the recent debates are not helping either.

Er... it has everything to be with claiming. If finlandssvenskar are Swedish then Swedes may as well be Danes. An ethnic group is a group of people who IDENTIFY WITH EACH OTHER - who are you to judge how similar or unsimilar people are to each other? Go by tradition and language and azeris and turks might as well be the same people. But they're not because they don't IDENTIFY as being one group. Swedes DO NOT identify with Finland-Swedes. Finland-Swedes are their OWN ethnic group. I am very much against Tove Jansson being listed as a Swede since she is an important part of Finnish literature history. I'm not the only one who sees this way as we just had someone from Finland try to change it back as well.

The bottomline is that whether or not I'm right or you're right is irrelevant. The topic is too CONTROVERSIAL for us to have a picture of a Finland-Swede in the most famous Swedish people section. And you WILL get people changing it again and again because they disagree with you. Why not just let Finland-Swedes have their own section in the article and let people decide from there how they want to categorise them? --Lilyserbia (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Once again this is not an article about Swedish citizens. And your replacement with a half-German who has has lived half his life in Switzerland can be discussed as much. And about Tove Jansson you perhaps can start to read from page 227 in "Den svenska litteraturen VI" from 1990. Närking (talk) 09:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

According to Finland-Swedish professor Tore Modeen, who also functioned as a eager minority right and identity scholar, the Swedish nation is comprised of Mainland-Swedes, Finland-Swedes and Åland islanders, (Europa Ethnica, "The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland", 1999). Comparison of between Danes and Swedes is flawed in this context. Unlike with Finland-Swedish coastal population, the language of Danes does not hail from proto-Swedish, (neither does the dialect of Scanians). Besides, even without having to have engage in ethnic identity debate over (Finland-)Swedishness, we can argue from sheer objective and neutral standpoint that Tove Jansson's mother was a Mainland-Swede. Jansson has had a big impact to the Swedish literature, at the both sides of the gulf. It would be bizarre if we could not add uni-lingually Swedish-speaking person, born to a Mainland-Swedish mother, to a gallery of famous Swedes. What is stopping us, Finnish(-speaking) national self-esteem?

Even if we tended to see Finland-Swedes as a seperate ethnicity or nation from the Mainland-Swedes, it's all irrelevant, since after all this article is about Swedish ethnicity and thus it ought to cater all forms of Swedish ethnicities existing, without giving a monopoly for Mainland-Swedes, something which is highlighted in the beginning of the article.

It's very important that we Tove Jansson in the gallery, it highlights that Swedish culture is not restricted to borders of contemporary national-state, Sweden, a construct of the 19th centuryPodomi (talk) 19:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave it as it is now since I can't be bothered to change it. But I am still offended by the fact that out of all famous Swedes there are that you could have chosen to represent us you choose what most Swedes would regard as a foreigner. --Lilyserbia (talk) 12:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

          This article is not about your personal feelings. Believe it or not, but ethnicity is not limited to the borders of a country.  --83.219.194.201 (talk) 17:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity is all about personal feelings. It's a sociological term based on identification within a group and is not something that can be counted in statistics. And it's a given that those born and raised in Sweden are more Swedish than those who have never lived in Sweden. And it is insulting to claim a foreigner is more famous than all other famous Swedes. --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why not replace her with August Strindberg? A rather uncontroversial solution, and we can't deny the fact that Strindberg should be in the infobox. Nymf _hideliho! 12:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion! I'll make an image with him when I have the time. --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with Strindberg, but that would be one more male and there is also a point in showing a Finland-Swede among the pictured Swedes since it will correspond better with the rest of the article. Närking (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the point is to spread forth your right-wing semi-racist agenda. That's the fact of the matter, plain and simple. The only person who would insist on putting a finlandssvensk in the Swedish section is someone who racially classifies people into different groups - a pseudo-science not supported by the mainstream. Someone who cared about true claims of ETHNIC IDENTITY would know a finlandssvensk does not belong in that box. --Lilyserbia (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Now it's clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. And your personal attacks won't help you. What you just wrote is way over WP:CIVIL and would render a block. The same goes with your "how many different IP addresses we have access to". Närking (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I find it very sad that we have people here who do not qualify uni-lingual Swedish-speaker, born to a Mainland-Swedish mother, in a category of famous Swedes. I find this infatuation with citizenship little outdated in modern Europe? However, as already stated this article does not render a monopoly over Mainland-Swedes, it covers all forms of Swedish ethnicities, at both sides of the gulfPodomi (talk) 17:36, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why were the Finland Swedes which speak Swedish and have Swedish ancestry moved to form their own section? I thought the article on Swedish citizens was a different one. Is the reason that we have one Swede who personally does not identify with them? That Finland Swedes and Swedes don't root for the same team in ice-hockey does not mean that they don't share historical herritage and central aspects of their culture (language, snapsvisor, Lucia, midsommarstång etc.). 123.16.242.95 (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Tove Jansson

She was born in Finland, Helsinki. She is not Swedish, she was Swedish-speaking Finn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.194.175.207 (talk) 16:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about Swedish citizens but about Swedes. Tove Jansson was a well-known Finland-Swede. Närking (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Then it should mention that she was a Finnish-Swede. She was Finnish-Swede, but this article is about Swedes, so she doesn't belong in this article. Just same issue was with Linus Torvalds. Please, change that. It is same, if I say that Folke Bernadotte is Finnish, because her mother's father was Finnish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.106.238.232 (talk) 20:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

She was a Finland-Swede that are mentioned in the article. Not that it has anything to do with this, but Folke Bernadotte's mother was Swedish, born in Jönköping, in a Swedish family. Närking (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

And it is even mentioned in the article that the topic is controversial. Which is why there should be no Swedish-speaking Finns in the picture box. Only those that the vast majority identify as Swedes should be allowed in there. --Lilyserbia (talk) 13:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Interesting to see your view is constantly changing. First you claimed that Finland-Swedes were ethnic Finns and when you noticed that the Finnish editors didn't think so you changed to say they were their own ethnic group. What's next? They are aliens? Just not Swedes. Seems like you have something against Swedes overall.[8] Närking (talk) 16:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Finland Swedes ARE Finns which is why I refer to them as Swedish-speaking Finns. Finns and Finland-Swedes have more in common than Swedes and Finland-Swedes. Only a racialist would deny it but I know you guys work along racial lines. When it comes to ethnicity I lean to them being classified as their own ethnic group because of the linguistic difference. Malin Åkerman is Canadian by nationality. This isn't a anthropology forum - this is a factual site. She was raised in Canada and she is a dual citizen. Check wikipedia's rules. Since she hasn't represented Sweden internationally she should be referred to as Canadian. I changed it to Swedish-Canadian to clarify. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't belong directltly to the article, but anyway. This Finnish bunch have been a active in wikipedia for quite a long time, and I think it's fair to say that the bunch is after for spreading their Fenno-chauvinism. They already managed to change the title of the article about Finland-Swedes as "Swedish-speaking Finns". I think we have to be more alert with this kind of acts in the future. Folke Bernadotte's mother's father was a Finland-Swedish noble by the name of Munck af Fulkila, a Swede born with a Russian citizenship.Podomi (talk) 21:05, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Lilyserbia once again I find your views very contradicting, on the matter of Finland-Swedes and ethnic Swedes outside of Sweden. At one point you are using Swedish born population in the info box, yet here you are say Malin Åkerman, who is born in Sweden no less, should be considered as Swedish-Canadian and Canadian only. How do you know she doesn't identify herself as a Swedes as well as a Canadian? Canada, like US and Australia, is an immigrant country.A lot of people identify themselves as Canadian as well as their ancestry. Yes, there is a term for that, Swedish Canadians in this case, but it is hardly mutual exclusive. In your theory you are saying that Malin can only identify herself as Swedish Canadian. But the fact is she is Canadian, Swedish Canadian and a Swede. Putting that aside I am curious as to how does an actor or a musician "represent" a country internationally? It's not sports. And besides there is no denying that we in Sweden still embrace her as a Swede, just like our many relatives in North America and abroad. Have you seen her ads and magazine covers here in Sweden lately?Nagbg (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

And there are many more similarities between the Finland-Swedes and Swedes than just the language. By including them here in this article does not mean that the Swedish government is claiming them as their citizens.Nagbg (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Swedish Population figure

I noticed that the Swedish population figure was changed. Can someone please change them back to the original figures. An ethnic Swede is someone who is of Swedish ancestry. This page is about Swedish People as an ethnic group, and not Swedish expatiates and recent emigrants as the current figures may suggest. By using the number of Swedish speakers and the number of Swedish born persons may be misleading since Swedish speakers and neutralized Swedish citizens of other ethnic origin are included. The figures also exclude the people of Swedish origin that were born outside of the country, as well as the decedents of earlier Swedish immigrants, as they are very much an important part of Swedish history (please see http://www.utvandrarnashus.se/). This is also to be consistent with the other ethnic group pages on Wikipedia.

I have reverted it to the original figures. Some citation are needed especially for the Latin American countries. Nevertheless the figure should be more accurate in reflecting the number of people with Swedish ethnic origin worldwide. It is also more consistet with the other ethnic pages on Wikipedia.

No matter how many times you change it I will keep on changing it back. An ethnic Swede is someone who is culturally Swedish. Only 7,500,000 people out of the ~9 million strong Swedish population is added due to ethnicity factors. Since Sweden keeps no records of ethnicity those born outside the country were excluded. As is clarified in the Swedish wikipedia this of course means that the people born in Sweden who identify with their parents ethnicity are wrongly included whilst those born outside of Sweden who have assimilated into the Swedish ethnic group are not. But it's as close as we can get.

The figures do not simply show recent expatriates and first-generation immigrants. It shows the people who are culturally Swedish. And the best way to measure this is to find those who speak the language. And I found these figures for the US. There are not 4 million Swedes in the US. There are 4 million Americans with partial Swedish ancestry. These people assimilated into the majority culture a long time ago. They are culturally Anglo-Americans. As I half-Swede I take offense in your belittling of our cultural heritage in applying it to every Tom, Dick, and Harry when there's clearly nothing Swedish about them.

Being an ethnic Swede means more than just sharing a common tongue or cultural practice. As a Swede yourself I am sure you know that there are many cultural and even linguistic differences between the different parts of Sweden, so how can you define a whole ethnic group by just that? Swedes that are culturally assimilate still share the same ancestors, heritage and history with the Swedes living in Sweden, which is what makes them ethnically Swedes. Just because they are born elsewhere and don't speak the language anymore doesn't make the Tom, Dick or Harry less of a Swede than you and me. Sweden has a rich emigration history, and it is very well documented, both in Sweden and abroad. We get people from all the United States and Canada visiting their ancestral land every year. How can you make your own judgment in dismissing their Swedish heritage? How can you proof that there are nothing "Swedish" about them? When it comes to culture and heritage there are much more than just language and birthplace. In addition, how can you take offense in sharing our heritage with others who have the same ancestors as we do?

And your figures can be fairly inaccurate. They are either based on the number of Swedish speakers and the country of birth. Even with your definition of ethnic Swede they can be misleading. You can be a ethnic Norwegian that has the knowledge of the Swedish Language. You can be born in Sweden to Chilean parents who briefly stayed in Stockholm in the 70s before moving to Australia. By your logic these two people are ethnic Swedes. At the same time you are excluding almost all the people with partial or full Swedish ancestry just because they don't speak the language or were born in another country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.16.48.95 (talk) 15:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no inconsistency with other wikipedia entries. The only thing that distorts the numbers is the fact that Anglo countries such as the USA, Canada and Australia keep records of ancestry which some mistakenly use for ethnicity calculations. But that's their problem, not mine. Cheers. --Lilyserbia (talk) 13:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Please refer to similar Wikipedia pages such as British People, Germans, Norwegians, Finns and other pages on ethnic groups. There is a big discrepancy on how the general define an ethnic group and how you are defining it. The Swedish version of this page was consistent with the above definition until someone changed it by inputting the current figures based on their own definition.

All of them include people of such ancestry. You are confusing ethnic Swedes with people who are culturally Swedes. A person with Swedish ancestry means that he or she is an ethnic Swede. By changing the population figure to the ones that are based on your sources presents some inaccurate information on this topic. It is an irresponsible action. Instead of being persistent in changing the figures back please create a new section or page specifically devoted to People who are culturally Swedes.

That took a long time to change back people. I am not saying there is NOTHING Swedish about those of Swedish descent if they don't speak the language. But we have a word for these people in Sweden - svenskättlingar. It's not up to me to make a page about "cultural Swedes" since ethnicity is ABOUT culture. Everyone has ancestors from somewhere else. A lot of evidence points to all of us coming from Africa. So what divides us into groups? Ethnicity, which is a CULTURAL term. It's because Americans have hijacked Wikipedia that many of these ethnicity articles are being distorted since Americans and other Anglo breakoffs have a different view of ethnicity than Europeans/Asians/Africans. I'm asking you to respect the Swedish definition here since we actually have different terms for etniska svenskar (ethnic Swedes) and svenskättlingar (Swedish descendants). --Lilyserbia (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I would like you to have a definite source of how you define an ethnic Swede (in English term, since this is an English Wikipedia page) before making major changes to this page, other than "American hijack". Your view of Swedish ethnicity = Swedish speaking OR Swedish citizen is ignoring some of the defining meaning of the word ethnicity, which is ancestry, culture and traditions. I am not the first one to say this but if you look at any other English Wikipedia page on ethnicity (this is the English version of Wikipedia, as you may know, if you are a native Swedish speaker, there are many Swedish words that translate differently in English and vice versa), people of certain ancestry are included. Saying how Americans and Anglo "breaoffs" hijacking and distorting the view of ethnicity is borderline racist. This is an English Wikipedia page. I am quite sure a native English speaker do have a better understanding of their language then we do. Yes, please do respect the Swedish language, but also the English language and not to make up your own definition. Yes Swedish we have terms like svenskättlingar, but it is not exlusive to the term etniska svenskar and svenskar.

And second of all please do not delete others legitimate input on the page without a legitimate reason. Have you been to American places with a high percentage of Swedish immigrants? If not I highly recommend you to do some research before you declare that they don't have share any Swedish cultural values as we do. Please discuss with other users before deleting 15% of the pages contents, which looking from the previous version did not delete any of the contents that you've written. As you can see this Wikipedia page does not contain as much information when compared to other ethnic pages.

Do you have a good understanding on how people in countries like USA, Canada and Australia identify themselves? Do you speak for the whole nation of Sweden when you say they don't consider Swedish descents ethnically Swedes? If not, please do not impose your own view on this page. People who edited this page have been considerate enough to be inclusive of all materials so that readers can extract the information they see fit.

And finally by your definition of an ethnic Swede Linus Torvalds should be considered a Swede. Swedish speaking and close cultural ties to Swede. Wouldn't it be contradicting to exclude him from the page? The term ethnic Swede (both Swedish and English) is defined by many things. The way of how you define it is limiting. I really appreciate your effort of creating a good page for this topic but you seems to have a strong opinion on who to exclude, as some biased comments were made in your discussion posts. It is important to take others into consideration as well. Similar statistics and figures (people of certain ancestry being included on the page) are not only relevant on other ethnicity pages, they are used on this page for years before you have edited them away. The same with the Swedish version of the page. No consensuses were made before the changes either on this subject matter. If you insist on putting a definite meaning on the word ethnicity based on where you got your information from (I am curios to know, or is that from that one person who made the changes on the Swedish version of this page), I suggest to include all the previous information as well. --Nagbg (talk) 16:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Linus Torvalds is finlandssvensk. THIS is his ethnicity. He is neither a Finn nor a Swede. He's a finlandssvensk. I don't care if it borders on racism - I could care less about how various British and American dictionaries define ethnicity. I go by the views of social scientists. And the one in the highest regard when it comes to this is of course Max Weber. According to him an ethnic groups are: Those human groups that entertain a subjective belief in their common descent because of similarities of physical type or of customs or both, or because of memories of colonization and migration; this belief must be important for group formation; furthermore it does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists. Read: "memories of migration" - "group formation" - "does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists." You can argue all you want about how some Americans are Swedes. In fact at best they are Swedish-Americans. Not Swedish, not Anglo-American but culturally Swedish-American. THAT is their ethnic group, just like finlandssvenskar are an ethnic group. These Americans are not ethnic Swedes since there is no group formation or feeling of togetherness between these two groups. I'm changing it back again. I'll leave in the random pieces of historical information even though they really should be in the Germanic tribes or Swedish Descendants page. --Lilyserbia (talk) 00:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Note that the link from this page to the diaspora takes us tothis page amongst others. There they give the true numbers of the Swedish diaspora in the UK. And as stated in the article, tens of millions of Britons are of partial Swedish ancestry. Should we put down that there are 20 million ethnic Swedes living in the UK? I think not. Should we put down that there are 4 million ethnic Swedes living in the USA. I think not. Do you get it yet? --Lilyserbia (talk) 00:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I think you misundertood Max Weber's defination. I think you have mistakenly skipped the phraseCommon decent of similarities of physical type or of customs or both. By that definition alone Swedish Americans, Swedish Canadians ...etc fits the description perfectly. Not only are they decedents of Swedish immigrants from the 18th and 19th century (more than 1 million Swedes emigrated during that period, which is a significant number by any means), many have maintained the customs and traditions. There are hundreds of Swedish organizations in North America, as well as newspaper and magazines that have been around for generations. This is an important subject for us, an integral part of our history. Many of us, especially from the south of Sweden, still have ties to the US and the other countries mentioned. We learned about it in school and we have records, monuments and museums dedicated to this subject. It is premature to dismiss that group of people (which is a significant number) as not being ethnic Swedes. When we look beyond of definition of Swedish citizens, Swedish Americans are ethnic Swedes. The case in the UK, similar to the one you have about our African origin, is different than the case of Swedish Americans. It has to do with self identification, customs, traditions, language and religion. Sweden wasn't one nation back then either. But this is a whole another topic on its own.

And I'm telling you that without "group formation" "common descent" (whatever that means) is pointless. An important part of group formation in an ethnic group such as the Swedish one that values conformity - is CUSTOMS - of which LANGUAGE is the most important aspect. For the US figures I used the amount of SWEDISH SPEAKERS living in the US, not the number of Swedish citizens. --Lilyserbia (talk) 12:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I propose to end this argument by a compromise. To present information from both perspective with a clear heading and title, and not to delete any information that you don't agree with. I respect your opinion, but you tend to use a fixated and narrow definition of the word ethnicity. At times you are mutually excluding a significant number of ethnic Swedes that may otherwise fit into your definition of the term by presenting the data you are using (The embassy figures focus on Swedish citizens). And once again, when you look at any other ethnicity pages, including the ones that are related to this page, they all would include information that you are, for whatever reasons, stubbornly excluding. So perhaps rather than deleting the figures (like you did in previous edits) I believe it is best to leave the subject neutral and present both information to the readers. Nagbg (talk) 12:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

As if I'm the only one who has deleted information. I already added a note in the population box to point out the number of people of Swedish descent. You can either make a new page of Swedish descendants (svenskättlingar) or make their half of the page bigger (and add figures there too). But the main population box should be for people who speak Swedish and/or are Swedish citizens living abroad (if no other information is found). This is the best estimate to the number of Swedes out there. --Lilyserbia (talk) 12:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the way the population box is now I'm fine with (I didn't notice the change before.) So I guess this issue has been fixed then. --Lilyserbia (talk) 18:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Why were the Finland Swedes which speak Swedish and have Swedish ancestry moved to form their own section? I thought the article on Swedish citizens was a different one. Is the reason that we have one Swede who personally does not identify with them? That Finland Swedes and Swedes don't root for the same team in ice-hockey does not mean that they don't share historical herritage and central aspects of their culture (language, snapsvisor, Lucia, midsommarstång etc.). 123.16.242.95 (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC) PS! Sorry for posting above under Linus by mistake. 123.16.242.95 (talk) 16:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Then you might as well put Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians together and call us "Scandinavians." There are clear variations between all these ethnic groups that only locals would recognise. These differences exist between Swedes and Finland-Swedes too. They are ethnically Scandinavians but they should be differentiated from Swedes. This is hardly my opinion alone. It's however my opinion that they should have their own page which should merely be linked to this one. I'm being lenient in allowing them to be mentioned under Swedish population statistics. --Lilyserbia (talk) 22:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Lilyserbia, please take a look at the information presented in the info box from these pages: Danes, Norwegians, Germans, Finns, Icelandic, Irish People, Scottish People, English People, British People, Germans, French People, Italian People, Spanish People, Portuguese People, Thai, Japanese People, Koreans and etc... None of the above mentioned pages separate the population statistics like we currently do. This situation is not unique to Sweden (of having a large population of Swedish decedents abroad). People of Swedish ancestry elsewhere should have their own page, but their population should also be included in the section and not separately like we do now. Nagbg (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected the article to stop the edit war that's rolling along. If you can't agree on which version to put in, why not just use a 9 person version? Anyway, resume the debates you've started above, and reach consensus. GedUK  17:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)