Talk:Frank Lampard

Photo / edit please

The photo of Frank Lampard on the far right of screen is pretty poor, I'm sure a better one can be found. Here are a couple of Photo's that you could replace it with, just click the links bellow to view them:

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/lampard%20100.jpg

http://s.bebo.com/app-image/8393105541/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/07/03/Frank_Lampard_449106a.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by LampsyTheCFCTalisman (talk • contribs) 18:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

We cannot use copyrighted photos or external images. Please read Wikipedia:Ten things you may not know about images on Wikipedia. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{WIKIPROJECT ATHLETICS NEEDS YOU!} 16:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Birth

Romford? In London? I don't think so.

Yes it is. Look at a map. Bhoeble 18:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Romford is traditionally in Essex. SteveO 13:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

You are both correct. It is part of Greater London Google Maps(pretty much anything inside the M25 is) but its traditional county is Essex Google Search. UK postal addresses place Romford in Essex. The term Greater London is only used for administration. Heezy 16:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Romford is in the London Borough of Havering. In 1965 it was transferred to Greater London under the London Government Act 1963 along with the likes of East Ham, West Ham & Barking. Royal Mail continued to include the former postal county until 1996 in addresses in the part of the area transferred that was not in the London postal district (such as Barking and Romford). 80.168.159.82 20:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

Who are these people with no life? This seems to happen on a fairly regular basis on this page. Blueasy 05:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Steady on mate! None of us have any life, let's face it. Otherwise we would hardly be Wikipedians now would we? Hee Hee. Bobble2 14:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Bobble2

Hopefully it won't increase after today's lack of lustre.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  19:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This page gets regularly vandalised. Shouldn't it get semi protected status? Beeromatic 13:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It gets vandalized, but not so much as to need protection at the moment. Wikipedia tries to protect pages as sparingly as is reasonably possible. It might have gotten s-protected at the very end of the world cup (I can't remember), but there's not enough vandalism traffic now that it would be worth locking out potentially helpful editors. Vickser 18:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you see what someone wrote??? Frank Lampard, a fat bastard!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can they do that?!!? I hate some players too but I still respect them. Tasiger 15:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

probably just a Wet Spam fan bitter that Frank moved to a bigger club

Hey! Something is wrong with the site!! I don't know if that's vandalism but something's just not right. The article doesn't show all the information about Frank even though they were edited and you can see them when you're editing the page.Tasiger 15:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The page was unprotected recently, and the vadalism has started up again. Very disappointing. Rusty8 (talk) 08:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Height

Lampard can't possibly be 1.77m. On other pages it says 6'0 - I don't know what that is in meters, but he must be at least 1.84m.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.128.235.210 (talk • contribs) 13:23, 20 Jun 2006 (UTC)

Official site states 1.83m or 6' : can't get more official than that.(Grugu 21:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC))

• I've moved this section to the bottom of the talk page for consistency. TheJC ^Talk_{Contributions} 15:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

He's 6 foot lying down - PMSL --82.153.195.136 23:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo

The photo is pretty crap. I'm sure a better one could be found.

Why the isn't more photos of him? And why are you keep changing the photo, that's in now?Tasiger 09:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The main picture in the infobox is really hideous. He has a smirk on his face and is looking at the camera like he's stupid. I realise there is a license for the picture, but surely there must be a better one. Operating 21:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Below form

At the World Cup in Germany in 2006 Lampard played below form for the majority of the tourament and missed a penalty in the penalty shoot-out against Portugal in the quarter-final.

I agree with this comment, but it's unencyclopedic. It would be nice if we could find a reputable source saying something similar. He looked unrecognisable from the Chelsea player firing goals in from any distance, not to mention the nervous wreck that went up to take the penno. Does anyone know where shot accuracy figures can be found?  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  19:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I added the accuracy numbers and a link to an article talking about how everyone's talking about how Lampard's playing poorly to support the poor form claim. It's in a new England section. Vickser 20:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Honors

I'm new to Wikipedia, will someone please add in that he was a midfielder on the 2005 (FIFPro World XI) team, linking the entire paranthetical area. I've been adding most of these to other World XI players, but Lampard's is locked up. Delete this if you add it, thanks.

The article does mention it. I've now added the wikilink as well.SteveO 10:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It's better not to delete anything on the talk page. — Alex ^(T|C|E) 22:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

no one has bought to light that Lampart alough he is rubbish can get in to the england starting 11 anytime

stfu idiot. you havent got any idea, lampard owns gayraad. the end.--Yu5uF 10:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Scandal

isnt there a latest scandal involving him and some spanish woman (not his wife) - that while he was in spain not too long ago filming an ad he got sexually involved with the woman in question?? i cant quite find the source yet, maybe someone else can. Chensiyuan 16:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I have the article about that and I'll add something about that soon.Tasiger 09:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Unsufficient information

"Frank's ever present habit..." - I read that somewhere and I was wondering if anyone of you know what that means?Tasiger 18:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe it's a reference to the fact that Lampard rarely misses a game, something which a lot of West Ham fans attributed to nepotism during his time there.[1] SteveO 13:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

When Lampard was at West Ham, daily newspapers reported that he was a regular at the club because of his father. I saw a newspaper myself there. And West Ham fans also cheered when his leg got broken "in disrespect". This can be added, as it is not nice but an important information about him in his journey.

Nickname

Why isn't Fat Frank included as a nickname. A lot of football websites and football fans call him Fat Frank. Someone should put it in.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.250.13.228 (talk • contribs) 16:32, 26 February 2007.

Given some of the highly dubious and abusive things which "a lot of football websites and football fans" say about players and managers, I doubt that is appropriate criteria for inclusion here. SteveO 17:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Abusive or not it is his nickname.Dixie Dean didn't like be called Dixie, he preferred to be called Bill but so, he is still known to many as Dixie. --82.153.37.119 21:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, Dixie Dean is known to history by that name, and I don't think it was ever used abusively, he just didn't like it. So it's a misleading example. Secondly, the standard is not to include abusive or offensive nicknames in infoboxes. Pretty much every well-known football figure has a pejorative nickname, but to my knowledge none has one which appears in their infobox. SteveO 11:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think theres a big difference between Dixie and Fat Frank, stop abusing or getting jealous of Lampard. its time he gets some respect around here --212.107.116.238 14:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No there isn't, now YOUR the one being biased. Weather its the Frank haters, Frank lovers or Frank himself, a nickname is a nickname. Don't judge me because I don't hate Frank and whats the fact that his nickname is Fat Frank got to do with getting respect? http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/gallery/2004/09/01/lampardandrewsilcox.jpg There is proof for you.

The fact was that Dixie Dean didn't like being called "Dixie" but thats what he was known as. Its the same with "Fat Frank", noe just get a life mate. A nickname does not need to be accepted by the player.

The Only people who call him fat frank are the bin dippers and the spammers. The dippers do it cos its easier to blame Frank for England being shit then admit their precious Stevie G is overated. Also, frank always upstages him by getting more goals and assists. The hammers are just jealous that frank moved to a bigger club. talk about getting a life. who's the saddo that's begging to add fat frank to the page ? 86.132.202.195 00:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I support neither of these teams gobshite. Im not beggining Im just saying that Fat Frank should be added.

for the last time, Nicknames arent supossed to be insulting, they are supossed to be soemthing nice and acceptful by the guy.--Yu5uF 16:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not a Nickname for Lampard for many reasons. 1. It's insulting. 2. It's not popular, mostly used by haters, which supposedly are not of a large portion among all the football fans. 3. It's never officially used anywhere. 4. It's strongly resisted by Lampard's fans, who most probably are the ones watching this page. 5. It's not reflecting the fact.

I've added Yu5uF's Crouch-vs-Lampard nickname wise words to the 'False Premise' discussion, as an example of an invalid argument for anyone who wants to brush up on their Philosophy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArseneWanger (talk • contribs) 03:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong.

1. A nickaname is a nickname, doesnt matter if it is insulting or not. 2. "used by haters, which supposedly are not of a large portion among all the football fans" - How are they not? There are more Fat Frank Haters then lovers. 3. Its not a official nickname accapeted by him thats why its not official but still its a nickname. 4. Thats tough because the truth is the truth. 5. It doesn't have to Rooney is nicknamed "Shrek", who he looks like but isn't.

Why do you seem so keen in having the nickname "Fat Frank" here? Does it satisfy you to see an insulting name to this fooball player? Do you have statistics to prove there are more "Fat Frank Haters then lovers" as you put it (poorly, I should add)? And Frank isn't even fat.Ifan160 01:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Injury

Should we include the recent wrist injury suffered from a Wayne Rooney kick? I know he only missed one game but it could become a factor in the future. (198.30.57.29 16:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

Cars

Frank Owns an Aston Martin DB9 and a Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, not a 612 Scaglietti.

how do you know that? If that's true, change it.Tasiger 09:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

maybe the guy is himself frank or sumthing --Yu5uF 10:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please remember to add a reference to this information!!! Chaza93 12:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please add nickname "Fat Frank"

I'm not sure if nicknames are supposed to include negative ones, but far more people call him FFL (Fat Frank Lampard) than Lamps. Go to any major non-Chelsea internet message board and that's what they refer to him as. That's what opposition fans scream at him during matches.

I know he's not fat, but the nickname should still be there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.49.53.25 (talk) 02:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

People are just calling him like that because their team isn't winning and than that's not his nickname. And it's abbusive, so we won't add it. Anyway wikipedia supposed to be objective.Tasiger 09:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

A nickname is a nickname mate! Doesn't matter if its accepted by the player or not, if lots of people call it, its a nickname. --82.153.195.215 21:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"That's what opposition fans scream at him during matches."

Is hardly an objective source. Just like what opposition fans scream at Rooney, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho et al is not objective or encyclopaedic. As noted above, the precedent is not to include abusive nicknames (see the articles of the aforementioned people, for instance). If that were the case, then "the ****" would be added for every single player. SteveO 22:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The point is, there are loads of Nicknames, for aexample, Rooney, some people call him the Fat Little Knobhead, but not loads. You go onto other forums and as people what his nickname is and they will tell you its fat frank. And why not add abuseive names, a nickname is a nickname, please change Dixie Dean to Bill because thats what he prefers to be called then. --82.153.195.215 23:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Once again, "some people" and internet forums are not objective or reliable sources. Furthermore, knowing what opposition fans abusively scream at a particular player is hardly encyclopedic.

Dixie Dean is entirely different. He is universally known by that name, meaning the article should stay where it is per the naming conventions guidelines. Type in 'Dixie Dean' and 'Bill Dean' into yahoo and see which produces more results. If you strongly believe that abusive nicknames should be added to player infoboxes, then it may be worth making a proposal on the WikiProject Football talk page. SteveO 23:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

How about Gayraad for Gerrard would u like it? --212.107.116.244 23:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I would not be bothered because I don't support Liverpool but however, not many people call him Gayraard. My point with the other post is apart from Chelsea fans Lampard is universally known as Fat Frank. It doesn't matter if its screamed at a football match or on a football forum a nickname is something well known. If everyone screams Freak at Crouch one of his nicknames is Freak.

How come when i add "lanky scouse cunt" to stevie me's page it always gets removed ?

Nicknames are nice, not something insulting. Crouch's nickname Freak is humourous, Fat Lampard or other things are insulting not humorous. --Yu5uF 16:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I am a huge Lampard fan, I have two shirts with his name on them, I'm a life-long CFC fan... But a mention of Fat Frank needs to go in here somewhere. It's what most people refer to him as.

ok chelsea haters stop faking You know the Chavs r the B35T and please next time sign --Yu5uF 21:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok no more of this 'Fat Lampard' talk and the page can stay unprotected Chaza93 21:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC) (and adimn said that btw)

Unprotected and re-protected within hours. Surely some sort of record... SteveO 01:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article will always be the subject of vandalism if left unprotected. Dave101→talk  11:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The truth of the matter is, he's really fucking fat.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.162.52 (talk • contribs) No, the truth is, you're really dim in the head, and your Gerrard is way heavier than him. And despite all his supposed fatness, Frankie has hardly missed a game through tiredness or poor health. And he has probably ran more miles than you ever can.

Make it bigger?

Can we have more information, we should have more information about Lamps, Lamps article should be better than Jayraad's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yu5uF (talk • contribs) 11:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Critcism and booing

It's been well known that Lampard is the cetre of a lot of booing and criticism for English fans and media. Should this be added. Jimmmmmmmmm 13:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable reference. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 05:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Christian Ronaldo's a winger?

"Lampard's 16 goals in the 2005-2006 season is a record for a midfielder in the English Premier League,[18] but this record was beaten by Cristiano Ronaldo on 5 May 2007 in a match against Manchester City."

But Christiano Ronaldo is a wanger not a mid fielder—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yu5uF (talk • contribs) 22:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

A winger is a type of midfielder, who usually plays in an offensive position on the wings. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 05:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed to a certain extent. Wingers can be midfielders, but they can also play in a forward role, which is what Ronaldo does for Manchester United. In that aspect, it is unfair to compare his goalscoring record to Frank Lampard who is a pure midfielder. At the very least, that point should be included in the article, which I have edited.Ifan160 01:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

No wingers are always midfielders, at least that is how it understood in an conventional sense. I suppose if a goalie runs to the opposition box in the last minute of a cup final that means 'they can also play in a forward role' --217.42.207.16 (talk) 02:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

I feel there should be a criticism section to this article.

Mention: Lampard was criticised by fans and chairman at West Ham because of percieved nepotism

http://www.ex-hammers.com/ex_archive/issue_30.shtml

and nicknamed 'fat frank' which has persisted ever since

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20040620/ai_n12756819

Compatibility with Gerrard questioned and calls for Hargreaves and Gerrard to be partnership

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=435572&cc=5739

Blamed for World Cup exit

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/premiership/article2124200.ece

Some claim "worst player" at World Cup with most shots without scoring.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/worldcup06/2006/07/11/first_half_good_second_half_no_1.html

Booed by England fans

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/6232932.stm

Criticized for the "majority" of his goals being deflected or penalties

http://www.caughtoffside.com/2006/10/18/eight-percent-of-lampards-goals-deflected/972.html

Perceived lack of technique

http://worldsoccer.about.com/

There is criticism of his performances for England in the article, including his poor shot-to-goals ratio at the World Cup.

There is a link to a Guardian report in the article which suggests that the popular myth that most of his goals are from deflections is just that, a popular myth.

Abusive nicknames are not encyclopaedic, imo. We all know what a lot of fans scream at Arsene Wenger in a very odious chant, but that doesn't mean it belongs here.

The link provided has the England captain saying Lampard and Gerrard should still play together.

Bear in mind that all edits should be from a neutral point of view.

Regards.

SteveO 21:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Typical fickle England fans, they forget Frank Lampard's goals helped secured qualification for the World Cup. And how he was second top scorer behind Rooney for England in Euro 2004.220.255.133.42 16:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are there idiots like you who all the time try to insult players of a better team than the one you support? It's hilarious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.69.0 (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope you enjoyed your 12th birthday party, regardless of what you think there is grounds for a criticism section because this is alluded to by the media, openly acknowledged even. So it's not just opposition support! Incredible isn't it? --217.42.207.16 (talk) 02:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Elen Rives/Elen Rivas

Hi,

can someone help me to find out whether her name is Riv"a"s or "Riv"e"s? Thanks.--84.177.85.196 21:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The BBC, The Times and The Guardian all spell it with an e. SteveO 21:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.--84.177.85.196 22:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Frank's goals

I was checking the the stats and I noticed that one Frank's league goal at West Ham is "missing" (well according to BBC). Everything else is fine. Can anyone find that goal? Tasiger 17:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Time to expand people

Look at that worthless Jayrrard's article its bigger than Frankies, so its time we make this thing bigger, i think a lot of things rnt mentioned there.. --Yu5uF 01:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No one is stopping you. Be bold. SteveO 14:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Most consecutive league appearances

07/03/08 I would like to point at that Lampard no longer holds the record for most consecutive league appearances. Brad Freidel of Blackburn Rovers beat his record this season. Freidel is currently on 175 appearances, and still counting. could someone change the detail within the article to coincide with the facts. thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aido fitzy (talk • contribs) 22:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Rephrase part on mother's death

Saying that his mother died after Lampard's performance in the 1-1 draw with Liverpool gives the wrong impression. He wasn't that bad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.191.193 (talk) 12:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I rephrased it, it sounded a bit too harsh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.10.35 (talk) 14:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Records Section

For some reason, this appears to be broken. I can't see why. Brilliantine (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. SteveO (talk) 14:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. Should have spotted that one. Brilliantine (talk) 14:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

2001-2002

Please edit that bit about "establishing himself as one of the top midfielders in Europe" bit. It's not NPOV, simply because that conjecture has only been brought forth by Chelsea fans. It also starts debate between fans of other clubs about who are the top midfielders and simply cannot be proven by any source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.3.135 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 10 July 2008

That seemed like a reasonable NPOV request to me, so I went ahead and made the edit. I'm still not crazy about the sentence (blossomed?) and I think the best course is probably to find a quote from sportswriter that we can source and put in there. Any ideas or or objections from anyone else? Vickser (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Lampard's Individual Honours / edit please

In November 2005 Frank Lampard came runners-up to Ronaldinho in the FIFA World player of the year award as well as the 2005 Ballon D'or - Lampard still got a silver trophy for his achievement in both award competitions, those should be included in his Individual Honours list nobody should take that away from him. Also in 2004 & 2005 Lampard got voted as England's fan player of the year.

EDIT PLEASE

can someone edit the start of the west ham section, it says his name is Claudio ventrice??????????? a bit puzzled. Dam vandles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.205.182 (talk) 06:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Y Fixed. LeaveSleaves (talk) 07:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Junior..?

Looking at this page, I noticed something that I feel I have to comment on. It says at the top of the page 'Frank James Lampard, Jr.'. His father, 'Frank Richard George Lampard', has his own page, titled Frank Lampard Sr.

The two men can be called Frank Lampard Senior and Junior for clarity in general parlance, since they are being referred to with exactly the same name, but NOT Frank Richard George Lampard Sr. and Frank James Lampard Jr. Even if the younger Frank is named after, for example, his grandfather, he would not be named Frank James Lampard Jr., as this is only the case in father-son pairs, as far as I've always been told. He would, in that case, be Frank James Lampard II (despite English naming conventions rarely using numbers compared to our American cousins).

My uncle shared his father's first name, but a different middle name; he was never called ____, jr. except in instances where both men were being called only by their first name and surname.

I have no idea whether or not Frank Lampard (Jr. or Sr.) refers to himself as at the top of the page (in which case the error is his, rather than an editor's), but I thought I should mention it based on what I've always been told/ read on the subject. Hope no-one takes offense to my comments.

Ashiyura (talk) 16:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The dubious goals panel of the premier league has clarified that frank lampard scored 24 goals whilst at west ham —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.134.16 (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit it please, make it better.

Would appreciate it if someone could expand this article as much as possible and make it good enough to get it into the featured articles lists. =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keanojcb (talk • contribs) 09:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Be bold --DFS454 (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I've put quite a bit of work into the article and I don't think it's too far off GA standard. No one's used his biography for reference yet, I'm sure that would help. I'd be happy to be on hand for fixes etc but, as far as bringing to FA status goes, I'm already confused by the amount of time I've spent improving Chelsea articles, given my allegiances. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 15:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably should get an assessment done on what needs to be done to get to GA, as a start. --DFS454 (talk) 16:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Religion

Is Lampard Christian or Atheist? Please add to article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.112.76 (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't think he's ever mentioned it, so we can assume that (a) it's not a matter which is of much importance to him or (b) he does not wish to speak publicly about it. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 19:32, 26 April 2009 (

====honours==== please edit !! In his 'honours' there is no honour of being runner-up in a competition. He was runners-up with Chelsea in the english premier league in 03-04,06-07 & 08-09 seasons, and also runners-up in the 2007-08 Uefa Champions League.

====individual honours==== please edit!! Lampard was 2nd in the 2005 Fifa world player of the year award as well as the 2005 Ballon D'or, I've seen in other players wikipedia ,that even if they were 3rd to 10th it was wriiten. He was also named england player of the year in 2004 & 2005.

Religion

Well, in this interview: [2] Frank said that he is going to church after his mother died. I guess that makes him a Christian. I don't know if the evidence is convincing enough though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.170.22.131 (talk) 14:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)