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Champion counties

JH has spotted an inconsistency between the list of claimants in Champion County and the honours sections of Nottinghamshire CCC and Surrey CCC re the unofficial titles between 1864 and 1889.

The honours sections use a list in CricInfo that is based on Rowland Bowen's researches in the 1960s but the Champion County list is one that WG Grace (helped possibly by his collaborators) created in the latter years of his career. We need to be consistent here so does anyone have any views about which source we should use? One obvious difference is that Grace was actively involved at the time while Bowen used reverse analysis and presented a retrospective view. On the other hand, Grace was probably quite subjective while Bowen was mostly objective.

A difficult one. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 21:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In cases like this, I generally think that we need to provide links to both sources where there is a conflict, and explain the uncertainty. Maybe a detailed explanation in the Champion County article, and footnotes in the counties' articles. Stephen Turner (Talk) 21:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking about it overnight, I'd come to the same conclusion as Stephen. This morning, I had a look at the records of Surrey and Nottinghamshire in 1872, where Grace goes for Surrey and Bowen for Nottinghamshire. Surrey played 12 f-c inter-county matches, won 7, drew 2 and lost 3. Notts played 7, won 2, drew 5, lost 0. (If I haven't overlooked any matcxhes.) Both the matches between the two counties were drawn, though Surrey nearly won the second after following on a long way behind, Notts only having 2 wickets left at the finish. So Grace clearly didn't subscribe to the "fewest matches lost" viewpoint popular at the time. He may have gone for the side with the most wins, either in number or as a proportion of the matches played. Or he may have subtracted losses from wins. He may have used more subjective crieria taking into account the perceived strength of the teams that the two sides played. Or he may simply have had a bias towards a southern, amateur-led county over a northern, all-professional outfit. JH (talk page) 09:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A citation in the Champion County article - one which needed repairing - is for Cricinfo's list of Champion Counties from 1864 to 1889, which valuably shows which authorities favoured which counties in each year:Champion Counties 1864-1889. There is often concensus, but where there is not Grace often stands out as being in a minority of one. The authorities include other contemporary ones besides Grace, such as Wisden and the two Lillywhite annuals. So I think it is a mistake to give Grace's opinion primacy as is the case at present. JH (talk page) 20:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grace had little input into his book(see the last biog sorry I forget author.) In the mid 80's WISDEN were going to publish an article by Peter Wynne Thomas which updated Bowen based on later research by several people including PWT. The main criterea was the contemporary opinion of the paers often summarised in Wisden and Lillywhite's Guide. Whatever the flaws in that system(there are a number) It was the system in use AT THE TIME. I think you have to go by that. I think it's the one on Cricketarchive.Fieldgoalunit (talk) 21:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, I think WG's view was largely subjective. He would have looked at the broader canvas and remembered who his most difficult opponents were rather than make an objective assessment of win-lose-draw columns. I think on balance that we should defer to the CricketArchive list but the Champion County article should point out the alternative claims. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 06:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just to stress it was not WG's view - He merely put his name to the bookFieldgoalunit (talk) 14:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've amended the 1864-1889 list in Champion County to reflect CricInfo and made changes to individual county honours sections accordingly (particularly Notts). Where there is no clear consensus in the CricInfo list I've said "no consensus" and assumed a shared title. Where there is a clear consensus but another county does have a claim (e.g., Derbyshire in 1874), I've said "Xshire also supported". Please have a look and let me know if I've missed anything. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 08:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fine - Do you remember why it was Derby in 1874. I seem to think, I may be wrong, that it was assumed later by FSA Cooper that because of Leat lost but I'm not sure there was a contemporary claim. As I say, it is something in the back of my mind.Fieldgoalunit (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"With 3 victories and 1 draw in 1874, Derbyshire were considered champions, for in those days the team losing fewest matches took the title in the opinion of some authorities. With so few fixtures, Derbyshire clearly had an advantage and later Gloucestershire were named as champions." "Derbyshire" by Major D.J.Carr and Michael Carey, in "The First-class Counties" in Barclays World of Cricket, 1986 edition, page 400. Johnlp (talk) 20:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That was the reference I was thinking off! -BWOC was to say the least, erraticly compiled(You might recall the orginal had articles of a historical nature compiled by people like Henry Blofield!). When Peter Wynne Thomas compiled the list on ca - I think, in fact I'm sure, he said he could find a verification of the Derbyshire 'title' from a contemporary sourceFieldgoalunit (talk) 10:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Geoffrey Boycott

I'm stuck on what to do. If we had just one image of him, we could probably push this for FA class. Gah! SGGH ^speak! 20:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you tried emailing him through one of his employers and asking him to release an image of himself under a suitable licence? It can't hurt and you may get lucky. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 23:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are video captres considered legal? If so, there are vidoes on youtube like [1] from which you can get a decent capture Abeer.ag (talk) 09:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Only if the video is under a suitable licence. In the example you cite, the video is an obvious copyvio. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Donald_Bradman#Some_pre_FAC_comments_to_deal_with

Please see the first bullet of this section, where Ref 3 of the article is discussed. What do you chaps think? I'd like to go to FAC today. --Dweller (talk) 09:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Davis only seems to have looked at five selected sports, so one shouldn't perhaps put too much weight on his findings in claiming that Bradman was the greatest sportsman of all time. Wasn't there some squash player who was unbeaten for many years, for instance? Bradman would obviously stand very high in any multi-sport comparison, but I'm not sure that one can safely say that he'd be top. JH (talk page) 10:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. How about amending it to "assessed by one statistician as..."? Sounds fairer to me. --Dweller (talk) 10:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've made that amend. How does it look? --Dweller (talk) 10:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Much improved. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 11:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further amended, per Stephen's comments at the article talk page. --Dweller (talk) 11:50, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have expressed my view on that more than once, so not repeating it :-) That was Heather McKay. I do generally agree with Tony's comments, except that I am happy about the first but not the second and third. Isn't this somewhat like having in Hitler's intro "Hitler was one of Germany's most notorious leaders, and he is held in the highest contempt by people all over the world; he had an international reputation as a mass murderer". I am sure that it is all true and can be cited but we need to e moderate with the language. Tintin 10:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tintin. Let's be clear - are you saying you don't like the Lead claiming Bradman was an Aussie hero? I could understand opposition to the international reputation (and I'm now inclined to drop it) but that's a separate point. --Dweller (talk) 10:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, that there are too many superlatives, especially for the lead, packed together - which perhaps may be spread out through the rest of the article, or sometimes even left unsaid. "Australian hero" is the one for which I don't have a problem. Tintin 10:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, if we ditched the international reputation, would you be mollified? --Dweller (talk) 10:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or wait a little to see whether anyone else share my view. I am a bit uncomfortable imposing my likes and dislikes, especially as I have contributed little. Wouldn't even mind dropping my argument if I am in a minority. Tintin 11:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Add me to the list who would be happy to see the superlatives toned down a touch. Support this change. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 11:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented over on Talk:Donald Bradman. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll take a look. --Dweller (talk) 10:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

←My point is that if you cram all of those puffy statements into the lead, it will reduce the appearance, the tone, of authority, no matter whether there's good evidence of their veracity. Why not distribute most of them more artfully through the article, where in more detailed contexts, and not so close together, their effect will be what you intend? TONY (talk) 14:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think consensus at the article talk page is indeed heading in that direction. As ever, even if I disagree, I'll happily go along with consensus. --Dweller (talk) 14:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chaps, are you broadly happy with the edits I've made to the article in the last couple of days? I think they reflect consensus... and I'm more than ready to head to FAC. --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Happy for my part. Time to list it, I think. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 12:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Ashes" and the cricket article style guide

At the Harry Trott FAC discussion, I have been asked to use a consistent form for the phrase "the Ashes" ot "The Ashes" (note the capitalisation of the "T") I agree with the suggestion that we should at least be consistent inside each article but I would suggest a project-wide style would be appropriate. There is no guidance on this topic on the cricket article style guide at WP:CRIC#STYLE.

I prefer "the Ashes" but can see a rationale for capitalising the "The" if the trophy name is "The Ashes" rather than the "Ashes" Others thoughts? -- Mattinbgn\^talk 04:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could also consider whether "the Oval"/"The Oval" should be capitalised or not at the same time :) Daniel (talk) 05:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note that even in the main article on the topic both forms are used interchangeably. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 07:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should use The Ashes and The Oval. In these cases, the definite article is part of the title. It's the same as for film and book titles; or for a sporting title such as The Wanderers which is both a football team and a cricket ground. If most people agree, I'll add it to our MOS. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 08:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, Blackjack. –MDCollins (talk) 11:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also prefer to see it capitalised, for what it's worth. Daniel (talk) 13:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't really mind if we capitalise the The or not. But there are some cases where the phrase is used adjectivally – as in "fastest hundred in an Ashes Test" or "in the history of Oval Tests" – where a The isn't needed. Johnlp (talk) 14:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a point that should be mentioned in the style guide too. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 08:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated WP:CRIC#STYLE to capture these points. Please let me know if any additions or amendments are needed. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 09:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think playing 50 Tests is enough of a big deal nowadays to keep. With the amount of Tests that England play, Pietersen has played about 42 in 3 years. So 50 Tests is 3.5 years of national service. There are already 50+ players in the list and in about 2 years, there will probably be another 5 or 6. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

how about making it as "Englishmen with 100 or more Test caps"? We will have only 7 Good Cricketers, good idea ? Bharath628 (talk) 05:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is already in existence. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. {{Englishmen with 100 or more Test caps}} is plenty. Moondyne 06:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
100 is a good limit. 50's too low. Daniel (talk) 07:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (or rethink) The 100 cap template is grossly skewed in favour of the modern era. There could be some {{Englishmen with 50 or more Test caps pre-xxxx}} if somone can come up with a year xxxx which is in some way significant in cricketing terms (rather than arbitrary). Packer? When did England start playing more tests per annum? -- roundhouse0 (talk) 07:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's true of any "accumulation record" of course- there are more matches in the modern era. But this is more of a size factor in this consideration. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think lists like this are pointless. They are the worst kind of statistics which give, as Roundhouse said, a grossly skewed view. Pietersen has played as many Tests in three or four years as, say, Herbert Sutcliffe played in two decades. If lists like this are to be kept they must be sub-divided by era. I would divide into two sections with the cutoff somewhere around 1965, which is when we started having these double tours that are the main reason for today's quantity over quality mindset. But even that is a weak compromise: I would delete all such lists, period. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 08:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ditch it. It's become an anachronism due to the proliferation of modern cricket. --Dweller (talk) 10:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Donald Bradman

Up and running... --Dweller (talk) 10:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed rename

Have you visited Sam Staples? I can't imagine there can be much argument about the prime usage being Sam Staples (cricketer)... --Dweller (talk) 11:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I say we delete the redirect and move Sam Staples (cricketer) back to Sam Staples. Had anyone thought that Sam Staples (town constable) were worthy of an article, as per the history of the page, they would have protested against the expired PROD which took place almost exactly a year ago. Bobo . 13:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which I have done. Bobo . 13:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FLRC of List of English Twenty20 International cricketers

List of English Twenty20 International cricketers has been nominated for the removal of its Featured list status. The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Featured list removal candidates/List of English Twenty20 International cricketers. Regards, Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 01:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Donald_Bradman#In_popular_culture

One reviewer at the FAC has criticised this section: "Seems like trivia". There are similar sections in many football FAs (including some I've been involved in). They're less common in cricket articles I suppose because outside of the subcontinent cricket doesn't have anything like the same mass appeal as football.

My stance on this is that the information in the section is all notable, referenced and hangs together relatively well. Some of it is arguably not exactly pop cult, but section headings are rarely rigorous even at FA - they're there to give a reader an expectation of what he'll find there (and help him to find what he's after through the TOC).

In short, I think it's fine, but I promised to solicit other opinions and you lot are ruthless! Give it to me straight... --Dweller (talk) 09:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. In popular culture sections are the norm for historical figures who have been portrayed several times in film, on TV or in books. If you look at people from the American West like Wyatt Earp and Jesse James, you'll see what I mean. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 09:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two more FAC issues

"Only seven players have surpassed his total, all at a much lower rate Sachin Tendulkar (who required 159 innings to do so), Matthew Hayden (167 innings), Ricky Ponting (170 innings), Sunil Gavaskar (174 innings), Jacques Kallis (200 innings), Brian Lara (205 innings) and Steve Waugh (247 innings)" you don't really needed to list them all. Maybe just say who was the quickest.

Pondering this. --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

"Next best is Brian Lara with 9 in 232 innings (4%), Walter Hammond with 7 in 140 innings (5%) and Kumar Sangakkara 6 in 110 innings (5%)." again don't need to list them all.

How many would you include? --Dweller (talk) 12:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
One
Pondering this. --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's useful to have the contexts of how his records dominate, in that those who come close in one respect (number of hundreds, or number of double hundreds) have taken more innings to do so, or a far lower %. We've listed all seven of the centurions and the next best three double centurions. The three is subjective, but seems sensible (esp. as once you go to 5 double hundreds, the number of individuals begins to rise quickly) the seven objective. What does the WikiProject think? --Dweller (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The seven centurions should be retained in full as they have passed a fixed milestone and it is useful for the reader to see how long it took all of these fine players to surpass Bradman. I have a slight doubt about the second group because it uses percentages and Sangakkara is still playing. I think I would remove the percentages and note that Sangakkara's total is "to date". Hammond as a contemporary is a must comparison. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 13:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "second most popular" sport

Another series of reverts has been taking place on the cricket article over this question of cricket's global popularity status. I think we are going to need admin intervention before long.

My take on this issue is the following, which I've written on the article's talk page:

This whole argument is a storm in a teacup. It doesn't matter if cricket is the first, second, third or fifteenth most popular sport on the planet. What does matter is that it is a major world sport as are (association) football, athletics, swimming and a few others. I think these sort of claims detract from the objectivity and readability of the article and from the credibility of the cricket project. Leave it out.

I'd be interested to know if other members think the claim is at all useful. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 09:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with you wholeheartedly here. The claim would be hard to measure objectively and isn't really necessary. The global reach and popularity of the sport is better demonstrated in other ways. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 09:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wholly agree. The number of countries affiliated to the ICC is not a reliable measure for the sport's popularity. Association football and athletics are surely both more popular than cricket worldwide. JH (talk page) 09:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I personally think the claim is very hard to substantiate. One may be able to find evidence for a sport being the second most watched, second most attended, etc, but popularity is hard to define exactly as there is no set criteria. Andrew nixon (talk) 10:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Popularity is a whole can of worms; how is it measured indeed. Playing strength by the population, viewership on terrestrial TV, satellite viewing figures, column inches in the newspapers, global interest outside the commonwealth, etc. It is something that is both hard to quantify and qualify.Londo 06 11:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is however, it is THOUGHT to be the 2nd most popular sport in the world. Plus soccer does the same thing.--THUG CHILD z 18:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Thought to be". In other words, an opinion, which is POV. Is cricket more popular than swimming? No doubt you will say that more people watch cricket than watch swimming, but popularity consists of both participation and spectating. There are more people on Earth who swim than watch cricket and, to pick up the point by JH above, the same applies to running.

As the edit has just had to be reverted yet again, given overwhelming consensus both here and on the cricket talk page to exclude it, I really think we need an admin to deal with this and place some protection on the article. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 19:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and is "considered widely" as in the soccer article not at POV? No one said POV's aren't allowed just gotta keep in NPOV otherwise with the sources it could have just been said it is but instead to keep it NPOV is where the thought to be come in. The same goes to there's way more people that swim/run than watch soccer but they don't do it as an sport. the edit has just had to be reverted yet again because some people keeps removing facts without coming to an solution 1st.--THUG CHILD z 19:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you just relying on the education reporter of the New York Post? He's hardly an expert on cricket. Do you know where he got his information on cricket being the second most popular sport from? It may well be that the soccer article is wrong in terms of what it claims, but that is not our concern. JH (talk page) 19:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like a different source? Would that satisfy you? The soccer article in the end is our concerns because it's a wikipedia article and article of the project (not in the sense of wikiprojects) and articles have to be consistent.--THUG CHILD z 20:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would depend on the source. It would also be a big help if their reasoning for coming to their conclusion was known. JH (talk page) 20:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usa today credible enough for you? I don't think editors will explain that while writing an article. Bottom line no matter what, the fact is still that it's thought to be the 2nd most popular sport. That's putting it in a NPOV way, a POV way would be just saying it is.--THUG CHILD z 22:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A throwaway reference by an newspaper worded as "Arguably the world's second-most popular sport ..." is not enough to support a claim that cricket is the second most popular sport. In what way is it popular, participation, spectators, television viewing etc. Where did the journalist in question get his evidence for this claim. My guess would be from the subjects of the article; i.e. hearsay. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence and a claim of that nature, to my mind would require peer-reviewed research from a credible institution. Even so, making such a claim isn't really necessary. It is far better to show that the sport has a global reach and is widely popular and then let people come to their own conclusions. Adding "thought to be" to the claim does not improve the situation at all. It is the opinion of a journalist, supported by little in the way of evidence. If you are unhappy with the claims made in the soccer article take it up there. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 23:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again the article wasn't saying it IS but that it's thought to be which is for a fact. People can still come to an conclusion themselves whilst reading that what it's thought by credible sources. Way more credible I might add then people here. And it's not the opinion of A journalists, what you want like 20 sources? That can be done too. Oh I'm not unhappy with claims used in the soccer article but am saying that it's being used there which is fine like wise it's fine using it in the cricket article.--THUG CHILD z 23:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the only fact that can be discerned from the article is that Paul Newberry thinks that cricket is arguably the second most popular sport in the world. However, including "Paul Newberry, journalist for the Associated Press, has expressed the opinion that cricket is the second most-popular sport in the world" in the article is clearly not appropriate. You go on to say that Paul Newberry is "Way more credible I might add then people here" Why? What evidence so you have that he knows anything about the sport? The sole basis for the claim in the AP article is, I suggest, that one of the people that Newberry interviewed that day told him so. That makes it merely hearsay and there is no reason to accord Mr. Newberry's opinion any more weight than mine, or yours for that matter. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 00:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not only Paul Newberry so would you like every person that thinks that as a source? There's really inconsistency here how other things work here and are sourced and what's happening with this. One difference, a big one, between you, I or anyone else here and him or the other journalist/editors is that they're professionals while we are not.--THUG CHILD

z 00:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So a journalist/editor who works for a gutter-rag tabloid is to be believed while non-journalists are not? BlackJack | ^{talk page} 07:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I seriously doubt that any journalist who knows anything about cricket (and I count myself in this, though I'm mostly an unpaid journalist) would ever claim that cricket is the second most popular sport in the world. As said above, it is the opinion of one single journalist on a paper that rarely writes about cricket. Hardly conclusive. Andrew nixon (talk) 07:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who are you to decide what's gutter and what's not? Now you're pushing your pov. Point you're not supposed to be pushing your pov around without being neutral which is whatever you believe neutralized by the others point of view which rightly or wrongly is that they consider it just that. Now you guys are just owning the article.--THUG CHILD z 07:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, now you are starting to get out of line. I suggest you take another look at WP:NPOV. NPOV requires that articles are written from a neutral point of view. It does not mean that editors are not allowed a point of view about reliability of a source or the appropriateness of content. Editors should discriminate between sources, using reliable ones and rejecting poor ones. It also does not mean that editors are not allowed express their opinions on talk pages. It is quite clear the consensus here is that the source is unsuitable for the claim and that the claim itself is not appropriate for the article. If it is added again, it will be reverted. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 21:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I nuetral point of view, which removing it just points the point of view of people here. Oh, so things that has a point of view different from yours is not reliable? Because I would say New York post, Usa today etc are plenty reliable. That claim is appropriate for that article because it's about cricket in general and that includes things like that. That claims not appropriate? Are you kidding me? It's appropriate just as it's done in the soccer article. My guess is no matter what the source you'll still dismiss it saying it's not reliable or whatever. And if it's reverted it can be reverted again, but I'll not get into that and wait for a plausible reason against it or a neutralized version will be in there.--THUG CHILD z 21:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(restart) I have made it quite clear what type of source I think is needed for a claim of this nature. From my comment above: "a claim of that nature, to my mind would require peer-reviewed research from a credible institution." Different types of claims clearly require differing standards of evidence. A claim likely to be challenged, such as this one needs something more than a throwaway reference in a story about local cricket in the US. I don't think we are likely to come to any agreement on this one. If you are not happy about this, feel free to take it to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, stating the fact in question and the source you want to use to support it. Otherwise, as the consensus view is unanimously against inclusion, it is time to move on. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 22:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's what you think to satisfy your mind and may be who ever agrees with you, but you are not speaking for everyone else. People here aren't in power to decide for the every one else. The sources used in the soccer article is just about the same. And no there's nothing wrong with those used in the soccer article like there's nothing wrong with the ones here. If it doesn't satisfy your mind then don't believe it but from a neutral point of view the fact still is that people think it's the 2nd most popular which is what it said and is verifiable through a reliable source.--THUG CHILD z 22:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK when such surveys of popularity used to be done ( in my youth!) the winner on participation surprisingly always turned pout to be Angling. I could never believe this and I guess times may have changed though, these days its probably Wii Fit! Tmol42 (talk) 19:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's very true. There are still a lot of anglers about when I go walking around waterways. And how popular is walking? BlackJack | ^{talk page} 07:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've thought about this for a couple of days, and I've concluded that I don't like it. The problem is that it's meaningless. Unless the source says under what measure it's the world's second most popular sport, the claim is easily falsified. Stephen Turner (Talk) 20:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

B-class rating criteria

I've been using these criteria for a few weeks now. They were introduced to WP:CRIC earlier this year but are already used by other projects, though the details are rarely the same.

I think we need a rethink about both the wordings and the sequence. I'd like to propose that we change from this:

1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations.
2. It reasonably covers the topic, and contains no major omissions or inaccuracies.
3. It has a defined structure with a lead section and one or more sections of content.
4. It is free from major grammatical errors.
5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as infobox, images, or diagrams.
6. It is fully and correctly categorised and carries all appropriate templates.

to this:

1. It reasonably covers the topic using WP:NPOV and contains no major omissions or inaccuracies
2. It uses good English and is free from major grammatical, syntax and spelling errors
3. It has a defined structure with a lead section and one or more sections of content
4. It provides adequate navigation through links, categories and appropriate templates
5. It is suitably referenced and all major points have appropriate inline citations
6. It contains appropriate supporting materials such as an infobox, images or diagrams

The existing criteria 2-4 are effectively about the basic content. Is there enough of it, is it accurate, is it well written, is it structured? I would say that an article that fails any of these should be rated a stub and I think that therefore these three criteria should become nos 1-3 in the sequence. So, having first determined that the article is not a stub, the reviewer can go onto the more exacting criteria around navigation, references and supporting materials.

My rationale for wording changes includes the need to consider WP:NPOV and to check that adequate linkages have been created from the article to other articles. I think we need to say more about grammar and stress that we expect good use of English.

Please discuss. All ideas and feedback welcome. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 09:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The suggested changes seem sensible to me. JH (talk page) 09:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also consider including a requirement that any cricket terminology is linked at the first occurrence eg. not out, runs, etc. and any link to an article that isn't specific to cricket includes the appropriate anchor, eg. innings and batting average not innings and Batting average. Or is that more something for higher-class articles? Andrew nixon (talk) 10:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably more for FA, A and GA really but I think it should be included in WP:CRIC#STYLE. Certainly if I found numerous instances of terminology that were all unlinked, I would fail the article on point 4 because it does not provide adequate links. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 19:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth pointing out that a C-class is about to be rolled out across Wikipedia. This gives Wikiprojects the opportunity to tighten the requirements for B-class, without relating the near-misses to Start-class. Bluap (talk) 00:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be very interested in knowing what C-class will entail. Can you point me to it, please? BlackJack | ^{talk page} 07:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment for details. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 07:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there was a lot of opposition to it and, personally, I can't see how it would help, although it wouldn't hinder either. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 14:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Twenty20 International games

Do we want to go down this path in having lists of every match? What next, List of Tests? We do have List of Ashes series (and others), but they're more specific. Moondyne 08:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This will become an horrendous list for users to download, especially with all those flag icons. It serves no good purpose. If anyone wants to see all the Twenty20 internationals we should direct them to CricketArchive via a suitable link. BlackJack | ^{talk page} 14:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. A list of when a team played their first Twenty20 International could be useful, but this list is going to grow out of control very quickly. There's at least 14 on the way in the next 2 months alone. Andrew nixon (talk) 14:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]