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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ValarianB (talk | contribs) at 14:25, 3 December 2024 (→Still a Convicted Criminal). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Convicted felon in opening sentence

Why is it ok to label him as a convicted felon, but not Donald Trump? This is a serious question/ 2604:3D09:927F:E900:9CE8:5D57:9E0F:544C (talk) 16:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Milowent
I trust your expertise 2604:3D09:927F:E900:9CE8:5D57:9E0F:544C (talk) 16:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Crime labels - it shouldn't be done for anyone. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • yeah, I don't think it is appropriate to list either of them as a felon in the opening sentence of the articles. That's the sort of thing that happens and gets reverted on the news day.--Milowent • hasspoken 16:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with no labels except for people like Dahmer or Bundy only known for their atrocities.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.246.97.81 (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I challenged the addition of the label but was immediately reverted with the editsum "small fix". I added the felony conviction to the last lead paragraph which is entirely about the gun charges and the conviction. Repeating what I said in my edit summary: MOS:LEADSENTENCE: "Do not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Instead, spread the relevant information out over the entire lead." MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE: The felony conviction is not the most notable thing about him; the conspiracy theories about him are more notable and not mentioned (WP:WEIGHT.) Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The relevant manual of style MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE dictates that not be covered in the lead. Your placement seems best. I think we also need to consider the lead of this article is rather long and we could do with reducing it and moving some other stuff into the body. TarnishedPathtalk 05:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagreed with having that in the opening sentence for Trump, and I think the same standard should be applied here. 100.11.18.155 (talk) 16:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that "convicted felon" should be included in his opening sentence. These are actual felonies and not politically-motivated misdemeanors that are tried as felonies. EnSingHemm (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This entire process has been politically motivated. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please provide the guideline which supports your opinion, because MOS:FIRSTBIOSENTENCE suggests it shouldn’t be in the first sentence because it’s not the main reason for his notability TarnishedPathtalk 05:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLPSTYLE is a policy: Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Hunter Biden is not. He's mostly known for being the son of his father, and Comer will never stop trying to find a shred of evidence (and good luck with that) as long as he's chairman of the Committee of Biden Family Investigations. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose in first sentence basically per Muboshgu. The first sentence is usually for listing a person's notable activities, and neither "felon" nor "convicted felon" are activities, they're a legal status (and "convicted" is redundant). For someone who is primarily known for their criminal activity, we give a high-level summary of their crimes (from examples given above, Ted Bundy: "an American serial killer"; Jeffrey Dahmer: "an American serial killer and sex offender"; and one more, Bernie Madoff: "an American financial criminal and financier"). There is no way for us to say currently if history will remember Hunter Biden as a criminal, and the current news cycle is not the place to go looking for reliable sourcing on that. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No... hell no. This is no on so many levels. First, Hunter is already a public figure so how is "felon" the thing he is most known for now? This is a BLP so we need to be careful about undue harm to the subject. If the conviction is reversed, thrown out on a technically will we apologize? Is anyone most known for being a "felon"? Do we say a convicted mobster is a felon in the first sentence of their biographies? In the lead is arguably reasonable but even then it should be kept in context. He was convicted of [specific crime] not the nebulous label "felon" that tells the reader nothing about the crime or even if the prosecution may be political etc. Springee (talk) 19:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Absolutely not Grossly undue. Blatantly violates WP:BLP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment should probably be mentioned pretty early. He's mostly known for being the president's son and making questionable choices in his personal life. And convicted felon gets that second part across quite well. Maybe give it until after sentencing to see how things shake out.©Geni (talk) 19:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've left a hidden note in the source to try to limit the number of times this is added by potentially well-meaning editors who are not aware of this discussion. This was an attempt at adminning a contentious topic, as an uninvolved admin. Please let me know if I did something wrong, CT-enforcement-wise. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I said something similar at the duplicate thread at BLPN but I think adding a hidden note (which any editor capable of editing the page can do) is really pushing the definition of both "admin action" and "arbitration enforcement" quite badly. I think you're fine, in fewer words. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps I worded it too self-importantly for my own good? Nevermind, you're probably too nice to tell me so. Anyway, the rationale was that I really do intend to ECP the article if that doesn't work, so I was kind of leaning on that warning more heavily than normal. Floquenbeam (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Create an RFC on felon in leade? 207.96.32.81 (talk) 21:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We're kind of doing one already. Anyway, RfCs are a pain! — Iadmc♫talk  21:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Calling Hunter Biden a convicted felon violates neutral tone. It's better to just say that he was convicted of three felonies and explain what they were. That applies to pretty much anyone whose notability is not based on a criminal career. TFD (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No as Hunter Biden's biography is not defined by a conviction, any more than Donald Trump's is. Speaking of Trump, I will also lob a grenade-opinion into the mix; anyone who votes one way on this and the opposite way at Talk:Donald_Trump#RfC_on_use_of_"convicted_felon"_in_first_sentence, regardless of which way it is, should likely be topic-banned from the American Politics topic area. Zaathras (talk) 21:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. Agreed. This article has suffered all year from editors who are influenced by their political bias and I assume the same is true of the Donald Trump article. I think the convictions in both cases are significant enough to mention along with other relevant facts in the lead. Hunter Biden is the first son of a sitting President to be convicted of a felony while his father was in office and Trump is the first former President to be convicted of a felony. There are multiple citations for both these facts and it is likely that these facts will be in n the first paragraph of future articles about them, in history texts and in current news articles. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I agree that generally felony convictions should not be in the first sentence of a lead unless that is the only thing the person is notable for. I disagree on your last point, as a former president and the son a current president are not really comparable. It could be argued, for instance, that Hunter Biden is mostly noteworthy because of his father, and his legal controversy while being the son of a president. Trump is noteworthy independent of his political career, and his presidency has a lot more noteworthy stuff. Trumps conviction after being voted out of office really seems more of a footnote in the grand scheme of things. I don't think either should have this in their lead, but do think someone could hold different opinions on the different pages in good faith. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No agree with above that 'convicted felon' should only be included in lead sentences only when that descriptor is a defining characteristic/what the person is known for/etc. Pretty easy to come back to this in a couple of years when the dust has settled and know whether it should be included (same goes for Trump in my mind). Not sure if this has been called into question, but the details of the conviction should definitely stay in the lead somewhere, and I like the last paragraph that is currently in the article.Yeoutie (talk) 22:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose adding "convicted felon" to the lead sentences of both this article and the Donald Trump article. 'Convicted felon' means the person has been convicted of a felony; are (Hunter) Biden and Trump notable/known for being convicted of felony charges? I would say no. Some1 (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment At this point I it seems like the consensus is strong here. But I was curious and decided to see how we handled this on the page of someone who is only notable for their crimes. Ted Kaczynski came to mind. A keyword search for "felon", which he clearly is, returned zero hits. So if a serial killer/bomber's biograph can exist without a single mention of "felon" in the whole article I feel like we could make it at least through the first sentence without using the word here (and likely in every other biograph on Wikipedia). Springee (talk) 01:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support convicted felon being in the lead sentence, due to Hunter Biden's main notoriety now being that he is the first child of a president to be convicted of a crime. This is his main notoriety since he has not held any important offices except at Amtrak. He is mainly known for this conviction and for the laptop scandal. laganrat (talk) 21:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally it seems to be recentism for it to be excluded since his conviction(s) is clearly what he will be known for mostly when historians look back. laganrat (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, what an amazing crystal ball you possess! Not only can it determine that the most recent event in a man's life is automatically the most notable, it has looked forward and recorded what historians have already concluded. Wowzers! Zaathras (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. But if it is put deeper in the page, it may seem slightly less important. I feel that it being put at the end of the lead paragraphs, which is what it has now, should be a good balance. It doesn't appear as the page's main focus, although it definitely has some influence. CosmoCreeper249 (talk) 12:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe your right. I feel that it should be put in the page, although if it gets put in the lead sentence, it may be the main focus for the reader. Although, it should definitely be put somewhere. CosmoCreeper249 (talk) 12:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obviously not. I'm not sure how this turned into an impromptu RfC, but we do not refer to people as convicted felons in the lead sentence unless that is the source of their notability. In this case, it is not. AlexEng(TALK) 01:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support adding "convicted felon" in the first sentence, as Hunter Biden is primarily notable for being investigated (by Congress) and criminally prosecuted, including for illicit drug use.
Side-note: I also supported adding "convicted felon" to the lead of Trump's article (no consensus was reached), as his New York trial and verdict generated massive media attention for weeks. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 04:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a lofty peak of intellectual dishonesty to take Hunter Biden being the center of a far-right conspiracy theory (Ukraine, Burisma) and claim that he is a notable felon because of a conviction in a completely, like literally 100%, unrelated gun and drug matter. It would be like writing "Al Capone is a gangster, businessman, and tax cheat." Zaathras (talk) 01:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I hope to be similarly consistent as the commenter before me; I also opposed this on the Donald Trump article. jp×g🗯️ 01:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose — Unless an individual is known for being a convicted felon, it would be inappropriate to add that descriptor to the introductory sentence. This applies to Al Capone—arguably more notable for being a felon, even if on tax charges—and Donald Trump. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:46, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hunter Biden is known for being under investigation for his actions, including drug addiction, the later of which resulted in his conviction. Biden's other children--Ashley Biden, Beau Biden (died in 2016), and Naomi Biden (died in 1972)--are all far less mentioned compared to Hunter Biden, because they have not committed questionable and illegal actions.
    Side-note: I continue to support adding "convicted felon" to the first paragraph of the Donald Trump article, either in the 1st or 2nd sentence. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Hunter is mostly known for being the son of Joe Biden and for the whole Ukraine conspiracy theory. His conviction on a completely different matter (gun and drug stuff) is not what he is primarily notable for. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 22:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think Hunter is more known for his drug/alcohol abuse, than that he was convicted of some specific crime. If the opening sentence would include (1) "former drug abuser" or (2) "convicted felon" in the opening sentence, then I'd rather have (1) than (2). But I also don't think the opening sentence should talk about "former" things so I don't think (1) or (2) should be in the opening sentence.
With that in mind, I think the current sentence "Biden was convicted of three federal ..." should be preceded by a mention of his history with drug/alcohol abuse. Paditor (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for starters, Trump was never convicted of a felony, whereas Hunter saw for not only to commit them flagrantly, but to record himself in the act. 98.97.74.69 (talk) 16:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Facts matter. Guilty: Trump becomes first former US president convicted of felony crimes – Muboshgu (talk) 17:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At a criminal trial in New York State, a jury found Trump guilty on 34 felony counts. If -- for whatever reason -- want to argue for some significant distinction to be made between state and federal convictions, have at it and we'll see what that looks like. I can't think of any. But for now it suffices to say that what you wrote above is false. Trump stands convicted of 34 felony crimes. Iandiareii (talk) 17:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon

I don't think that this sentence maintains a neutral stance:

'Hunter Biden was pardoned by his father, President Joe Biden, in December breaking repeated promises by the president that he would not do so.'

I think that as this is in the lead section, it should try to keep extra context out and stick only to the fact that on December 1st 2024, President Joe Biden issued a pardon to Hunter Biden for the aforementioned charges. 99.254.70.184 (talk) 02:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • User:Ex Parte just beat me to it--thanks. Drmies (talk) 02:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Seems it was put back in? I took it out. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think User:Iljhgtn is trying hard to make Biden look as bad as possible, including with this edit, where he claimed that "CNN also directly criticized President Biden for the apparent act of nepotistic corruption". Muboshgu, I wonder what you think of this editor's work. Note also that they put the claim in the lead to begin with; Ex Parte removed part of it and Iljhgtn just put it back. Is that not a violation of the Contentious Topics rules? Drmies (talk) 03:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are assuming bad faith, just as you did with your tier-3 warning first time we have interacted as well as claiming "intentional" and "deliberate" misrepresentation of the facts. I am not the one that issued the pardon, Hunter Biden's father did, and his father is President Joe Biden. I placed what the reliable sources say, minus some of your comments being factored in, to a new section for the article. Iljhgtn (talk) 03:36, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also to note, the line, "CNN also directly criticized President Biden for the apparent act of nepotistic corruption" was removed already. Iljhgtn (talk) 03:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The news about Joe Biden and his history of promises etc. is newsworthy and sourced and deserves inclusion... on Joe Biden's page. This page is about Hunter Biden and in its context the relevant part of that story is that Hunter was pardoned.--Noren (talk) 04:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If we're going to put JB's stated justification for doing it in, we can also include commentary about what the pardon itself means, including criticisms. The fact that he didn't take the decision doesn't mean analysis of a decision taken concerning him should be left out. Riposte97 (talk) 04:48, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not to mention, as has been pointed out, that every RS on this mentions the broken promise. Riposte97 (talk) 05:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agree that the "he said he wouldn't then he did" is an important aspect, but imo characterizing it as "breaking a promise" sounds a little juvenile. i've update the wording a bit. and again, the intention is not to soften or whitewash, just to elevate the prose. ValarianB (talk) 14:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead currently discusses Biden's stated justifications for the pardon and also the fact that he reneged on repeated promises. Seems more than fair to me. Practically every RS I can find that mentions this either prominently highlights the latter point or puts it right up there in prominence next to the pardon itself. Examples include AP and WaPo reporting, where it's mentioned in the same 1st paragraph. This isn't just the president pardoning an unrelated person that they never spoke about beforehand. KiharaNoukan (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should consider reorganizing the section headings

I’m not logged in rn but the current sections we have are a bit confusing and could easily be condensed and reorganized. A single section detailing his legal issues and eventual pardon is probably preferable. 65.112.8.31 (talk) 02:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request for assistance from qualified editor on one very minor change

Please remove the [clarification needed] tag, which I set apart from existing text, below, with multiple added asterisks.

Under the section "Investor, lobbyist, philanthropy" in the subsection "Burisma Holdings", a paragraph begins with the sentence •

"Ukrainian lawmaker Andrii Derkach, an associate of Rudy Giuliani with links to ***** [clarification needed] ***** Russian intelligence, released in May 2020 alleged snippets of recordings of Joe Biden speaking with Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko during the years Hunter Biden worked for Burisma."

•

Not sure at what stage of the article the clarification request was made, but as the article exists today there's full clarification within the same paragraph itself just a few sentences later. There we read, with appropriate citations, that

•

"The United States Department of the Treasury sanctioned Derkach in September 2020, stating he "has been an active Russian agent for over a decade, maintaining close connections with the Russian Intelligence Services"

•

Additional information follows immediately afterwards along the same lines. Every supporting detail can't get crammed into a single sentence. The clarification that I take is being asked for -- of Derkach's ties to Russian intelligence -- comes only a couple dozen words later, backed by fully cited quotes from the Treasury Department and others. It doesn't get much clearer than that, it seems to me.

Please remove the [clarification needed] tag. As the article exists today, that clarification has been provided. Iandiareii (talk) 17:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The clarification should be put into the article, not just mentioned on the talk page. I suggest saying, "who was sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury Department for being a Russian agent." TFD (talk) 18:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The information ** is ** already article. The sentence I included above that mentions Treasury finding Derkach to have ongoing connections to Russian intelligence agencies is copied directly from the article as is. It's already there with proper citation, now. And there's more already there (also cited) following the sentence I included above.
What you're suggesting be done has already been done, but the [clarification needed] tag still remains. In my opinion it should be removed as it raises a question or casts doubt that would be immediately and fully dispelled if the reader continues with to the end of that same paragraph. As I wrote, everything can't get get crammed into one sentence. Two or three sentences later the clarification comes, in spades.
I would do the removal myself if I could but I'm not accredited here sufficient to edit locked down articles such as this one. I apologize if I was unclear initially. The request still stands. Iandiareii (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense, done. KiharaNoukan (talk) 21:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still a Convicted Criminal

While an extensive Pardon section has been added, and curiously enough a note saying "the pardon cannot be rescinded by President-elect Donald Trump or any future presidents" there's nothing stating that Hunter remains a convicted criminal. This needs clarifying IMHO.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=Does%20a%20presidential%20pardon%20expunge,No.

Per the link above "... if you were to be granted a presidential pardon, the pardoned offense would not be removed from your criminal record. Instead, both the federal conviction as well as the pardon would both appear on your record."

Hunter is also apparently seeking to have his Californian tax evasion charges dismissed while Special Counsel David Weiss is arguing his pardon doesn't change anything about his criminal record - he was granted mercy, not declared innocent. Resolution of this is TBD but it connects to the above. Do other concur, disagree ...? 人族 (talk) 03:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link to the article about pardoning so that readers can learn what that is (and isn't). That should be sufficient EvergreenFir (talk) 03:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that clarifications is necessary per the suggestion given by 人族. It is an omission or at the very least misleading to not state that Hunter remains a convicted criminal in this BLP article. To reiterate, he was not declared innocent as a result of the pardon.--FeralOink (talk) 12:40, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this is veering into original research and synthesis. we should be providing factual information about the subject found in sources and not editorializing about what the next president can or cannot do (the "cannot be rescinded" line should be snipped entirely) or about the legal status of pardoned persons. Hunter Biden's conviction remains on-record, so he can be categorized appropriately. Roger Stone is still in Category:American people convicted of making false statements and Category:American people convicted of obstruction of justice for example. but characterizing him as a "convicted criminal" in direct prose would be wrong. ValarianB (talk) 14:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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