Talk:American poetry

Dr. Seuss?

I'm curious as to why Dr. Seuss isn't mentioned. He's probably the most popular and well known American poet. Don't ignore him just because he wrote children's books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.86.218.135 (talk) 03:25, 21 February 2004 (UTC)

He might even be the most popular and well known American verse writer, but I doubt he would have called himself a poet. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:26, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Article introduction sucks!

I wanted to feature this article on the main page, but the introduction is horrible - it has nothing to do with the article. Furthermore, it contains a MAJOR factual error -- the history of poetry in English begins with the establishment of the colony that was to become the United States of America.. Really? Shakespeare predates colonial America; ditto for John Donne. I'd be quite grateful is someone knowledgeable would rewrite the introduction. →Raul654 03:37, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Allow me to clarify - the introduction is a two sentence blurb that says American poetry began with the founding of America? So? It's obvious and really doesn't say a whole lot about American poetry. IMHO, there's really nothing there worth putting on the main page. Could someone please summarize the article - that's what the first paragraph should do. →Raul654 03:49, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

The intro no longer says American poetry began with the founding of America. Also, it is an explanatory intro to the article on the page, not the intro to the article. Maybe the test is that it it is deleted entirely, will it be missed.. Maybe not. CheersMoriori 03:57, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

"The intro no longer says American poetry " - I'll assume you meant to say "The intro no longer says english poetry", so yes, that's an improvement, but that doesn't really get to the heart of my objection. The first paragraph of any article should introduce the topic and summarize the article. Compare the introduction of this article to the introduction over at English poetry. While the English poetry intro isn't the best I've ever seen, it's miles ahead of what we have here. As it is, I can't feature this article on the main page, because there's no summary to us there. →Raul654 04:04, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

I assume that when you posted that you hadn't actually read the amendment I was referring to. Moriori 07:14, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but now half the introduction ("Poetry was created by Native Americans ...United States of America") is completely irrelavant to the article. And I re-iterate my objection above - there's really nothing in this introduction that pertains to the article itself, and there's no way this can be featured on the main page. →Raul654 15:58, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not so worried about main page feature as Wikipedia looking as if its competently produced and contains accurate and comprehensive information. The article is clearly not a comprehensive coverage of poetry of the United States because it does not fulfil the heading Poetry of the United States. Unless the heading is amended, the page has to explain that it is only for a certain period of American history. Why not change the page title to "United States poetry in the English language" and rewrite the intro? Cheers Moriori 22:33, May 8, 2004 (UTC) . Afterthought, if you want to see an article that needs attention, have a look at Israeli attack on USS Liberty. It's a mess. I'd like to have a go at editing out the repetitions and unsubstantiated claims, but the POV pushers are too daunting. What a shame. A casual visitor to Wikipedia could be forgiven for happening on that article, seeing it for what it is, and then concluding that Wiki is not a reliable source of information. All the time on Wiki seems to be to and froing about three reverts, instead of ensuring the articles are actually worth inclusion. It's good to see you are trying to fix the poetry page. Moriori 22:33, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

A "comprehensive" look at American poetry could probably fill several books. The content here is (IMHO) pretty good - all the stuff I would expect to see is here. I like the article in general, but the first paragraph isn't what it should be. →Raul654 04:00, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

I have tried to address this problem just now. Filiocht 09:05, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A bit elitist, no? (a simple desultory philippic)

How can we have an article on poetry in the United States that does not even acknowledge the existence of vernacular forms such as rap, slam poetry, or the cowboy poets (we apparently don't even have an article on the last) and (as far as I can tell on a quick read) does not acknowledge that there is even one significant poet working in the United States who writes in Spanish, Haitian Creole, Cajun French, and Native American language, or, indeed, anything but English. As far as I can tell, Native Americans appear only as a subject matter. I see that Bukowski somehow snuck in the door, good for him, guess it helps to be published by City Lights. Apparently being primarily known as a musician doesn't rule one out of being mentioned, but (picking three musician/poets) can anyone seriously argue that John Cage (who is mentioned) is more important as a poet than Bob Dylan or Patti Smith (who are not)? As a composer, sure, but as a poet? And when the article speaks of "the emergence (italics mine) of African-American poets such as Langston Hughes... and Countee Cullen", it is as if African-Americans in America were not writing poetry until white people noticed them. -- Jmabel|Talk 08:59, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Unashamedly elitist, I would have thought. Pop culture gets loads of coverage on Wikipedia, nice to see an article that looks at the stuff that is left out. Cage is hugely important as an influence on later poets who used chance proceedures. Dylan is a great song-writer, but the jury is out on him as a poet, and I speak as a fan. Afro-American poetry may have been going on for a long time, but it emerged into the mainstream in the 1930s, that's a fact. Patti Smith a poet??????? The article covers the main traditions as reflected in any major anthology of American poetry. Unfortunately, a sentence pointing out that Native Americans were creating poetry long before the white man came has been deleted (it was the very first sentence in the article!). On behalf of isolated higbrows everywhere. Filiocht 09:29, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)

Patti Smith was a much-published poet, and in the usual sorts of places poets published, before she started performing with guitarist Lenny Kaye and, over the course of about 2 years, evolved into a rock musician. Several of the songs on her first album are adaptations of pieces that started as published poems before she ever was doing music. -- Jmabel|Talk 21:03, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

There is no real solution to this: an 'academic' article on any area of poetry is going to be selective in some way. I have on my shelves The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry, which would probably be good to add on the list of poetry anthologies at some point. That is, my solution is not to carp about academic judgements, but to enable the addition of as many 'minor' poets as possible hanging off various collections. That seems to me to be the way forward as encyclopedia.

Charles Matthews 11:46, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Academic". Perhaps, but then... E. A. Robinson? Certainly a popular rather than an academic poet, and also getting out that annual book of poetry under exactly the same economic pressure that a songwriter or rapper has to get out the next album, with comparably uneven results. And Filiocht says "the jury is out" on Dylan as a poet: well, I'd say that most (but not all) of his first-rate work is from the 1960s and mid-1970s, but (given that I just mentioned E. A. Robinson) let's take two poems in the same mode: can anyone seriously say that "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" can't hold it's own against "Richard Corey"? And the former is generally considered relatively minor Dylan, while the latter is among Robinson's best-known work.

Also, you'd never know from the article that there was an economic context in which it becomes possible to become a professional poet. No mention of book publishers (the discussion of the Beats doesn't even mention City Lights Press), magazines (not even the New Yorker), circuits of readings, the rise of grants, the gradual opening of the academy to contemporary poetry. I'm not saying that there is anything in the article that doesn't belong there, I'm just saying that the article is very narrow, especially for something with featured-article status. Yes I'm glad to see stuff in here that's not all pop culture (look at my own contribution list if you doubt the sincerity of that), but this is a "top-level" article and it doesn't even offer links to other articles where one might get a less drawing-room-and-classroom-oriented view of the subject. -- Jmabel|Talk 21:03, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Why not add some? I think you'll find that there is a list of small presses, and having started it I'd be delighted to see it built up. I doubt whether 'Poetry of the United States' should be mentioning individual small presses, but they are certainly encyclopedic under some circumstances (such as you mention).

Charles Matthews 21:31, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I hesitate to try to write about this because I'm just plain not expert on it... but somebody must be, and when I read this article, based on what I know (which is probably about average for an educated layman) it looks (presumably inadvertantly) slanted. So I'm raising my issues, hoping someone else will be inspired to write about some of this. Ironically, I may know more about Argentine poetry than American.

While I'm on it: virtually nothing in the article about the role of criticism and anthologies in the making and unmaking of reputations and careers. Nor a link to anywhere one could learn about it. -- Jmabel|Talk 21:54, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

"metric" as a noun

Several passages use "metric" as a noun where I would use "meter". Is "metric" really correct here? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:47, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

weirdnesses in the article

• 'L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry is extremely writerly, ' - I do not recognise the word 'writerly'
• 'her poems were typically New England' - that does not mean anything to many readers
• 'not unambiguously aligned with high modernism' - huh?
• 'pushed the boundaries of the American idiom in the direction of demotic speech' - huh?
• 'professionalisation' - is that really a word? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobblewik (talk • contribs) 20:44, 24 November 2004 (UTC)

Well, 'huh' is demotic, as in the language of the demos. Writerly, yes that's a word. Professionalisation is a word. Charles Matthews 22:40, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't know who made the first comment above, but Charles, "huh" isn't in the article! Maybe you understood "not unambiguously aligned with high modernism", but I have no idea what it means. If "writerly" is a word, it isn't a very well known one (indeed "demotic" and "demos" would be unknown to most - though as I was one of the few who did Greek at school, I know what they mean). I've never heard of "professionalisation" before. In summary, this poorly written article is inaccessible to most readers. jguk 22:51, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think of either "writerly" or "professionalisation" as obscure (and no, I'm not the author). "Writerly" gets 60,400 Google hits; the first batch mostly refer to this as a translation of Roland Barthes' "scriptible"; one of that first batch is Britannica using it in an article title. Barthes' meaning would appear to match with this usage in the article. "Professionalisation" or "Professionalization" are also pretty common: 77,600 and 178,000 Google hits respectively. Nearly all of the early hits seem to be in the sense used in the article.

Yes, we should expand on "typically New England" for the sake of non-U.S. readers. Charles's point in saying that "huh" is demotic isn't that "huh" is (or should be) in the article, but to point out that you were using demotic speech in asking your question about demotic speech. "Demotic speech" means the speech of common people, as opposed to more formal or academic speech. Yes, the term is probably obscure enough to deserve to be clarified (although it is precisely the correct term in talking about the history of poetry and should be explained, not replaced).

"There were poets active in the United States in the first third of the 20th century who were not unambiguously aligned with high modernism," is not a great transition sentence, and should probably be improved, but I think its meaning is perfectly clear: it is a transition sentence from talking about a group of poets who were unambiguously aligned with high modernism to talking about several who were not. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:23, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

I can only quote from Ezra Pound: Buy a dictionary and learn the meanings of words. Filiocht 13:13, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

jguk, the point was that you didn't know what demotic meant, but you used demotic speech such as huh?. It was a teasing way of explaining the word. That said, you've pointed out a couple of places that could be imrpoved, as you're correct that articles should not descend into jargon (but sometimes they must use it regardless, unless you're doing the Simple English explanation of Simple Relativity ...). --Dhartung | Talk 21:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Intellectual arrogance is a good way to get a first at Oxford, but not the best approach for an international encyclopaedia. See: Wikipedia:Explain jargon. jguk 20:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can't tell from either of the comments that follow mine whether they agree or disagree that we should keep these words but also explain them and that we should improve the transition sentence. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:03, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think some of words debated here should either go or be explained in the article. "Modernism", for example, I think is best explained. It's a useful term when discussing poetical styles. "Writerly" (as mentioned above by another editor)is surely best left out. The sentence you quote yourself is not a very good sentence stylistically. I'm sure there's a better way to convey the same sentiment. jguk 21:28, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can I point out that the Wikipedia:Explain jargon page actually says

The Wiki format allows you to do this more easily than could be done on paper. You can simply make your jargon terms links to articles explaining them; you can then link to that same explanation from many places.

This article does, for example, link to an explanation of modernism in English poetry.

Charles Matthews 21:34, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's a case of using commonsense. I should have quoted Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Think of the reader, which discusses this point in more detail and states:

Where possible, avoid using jargon. But again, consider the reader. An article entitled "Use of chromatic scales in early Baroque music" is likely to be read by musicians, and so technical details and jargon, linked to articles explaining the jargon, are appropriate.

But an article entitled "Rap music" is likely to be read by laymen who want a brief and plainly written overview, with links to more detailed information if available. If any jargon that is used, a brief explanation should be given in the article itself.

This article title clearly falls within the remit of the second paragraph quoted above. jguk 22:11, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well OK: that's your page, written within the past week, and you're entitled to quote it. Like it says at the top, not 'policy'. Charles Matthews 06:49, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's an interesting approach: find an article that has some words in it you do not understand, declare yourself to be the 'Ordinary Reader', write a page outlawing words you do not understand, return to the article in question and quote your page and your position as the OR to label it badly written and unintelligible. I repeat, modernism, demotic, writerly and professionalisation are all perfectly good words and exactly the words that are needed here. That leaves the ambiguity around 'typically New England'; not much of a basis for declaring the article crap and listing it on WP:FARC, is it? Filiocht 16:08, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

FA status challenged

See Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates -- mav 03:54, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

More distinctions should be made

Instead of lumping all the early 20th c. poets together, shouldn't it be pointed out that Stevens and Crane were going in the opposite direction of Pound and Williams? I think every English scholar recognizes this. Some even trace it back to responses to Emerson: Poe, Melville, Pound, Eliot, Williams, Penn Warren and others are anti-Emersonian; Whitman, Dickinson, Stevens, Crane, Ashbery are pro-Emersonian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.61.219 (talk) 09:23, 30 November 2004 (UTC)

May be a fair point. It might also be better placed on the Ralph Waldo Emerson page, I guess. Charles Matthews 09:50, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the notion advanced by the anonymous poster above is Harold Bloom's notion. It should therefore be placed on his page, in my opinion. Hydriotaphia 04:13, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

...and appropriately cited. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:29, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

With some evidence that Pound, for instance, ever cared about Emerson at all. Filiocht 08:28, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Pound had characteristically wrong-headed ideas about Emerson. Hydriotaphia 09:04, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

One doesn't need to be pro-Emerson to be anti-"density, difficulty, and opacity", of course.Scutigera (talk) 07:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

A better (LOL) intro

Poetry in the United States began with the creation of the United States, thereby making all poetry written within its bounds at the time fall under the same geopolitical distinction. -==SV 00:07, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

hmm?

What grants this article 'featured' status? By virtue of it being a nice back rub for America? It is vaguely written and wholly amusing (in a tragic way). There is too much of a lean towards American born articles on the front page. I'm sure i'm not the only person to have noticed this. --AeneasMacNeill 10:09, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A voting process is what grants Featured status. Check out Wikipedia:Featured article candidates to see how the process works. You will find links to the FA criteria etc. there, too. If you think the FAC page rubs any backs, take it to Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates, it's not any too relevant on this page. You are cordially invited to join in the voting and be a part of the decision-making about Featured articles! Bishonen | Talk 12:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Slam

Glad to have this in here but it was added anonymously and without citing sources. The following two sentences, in particular, would seem to call for citation: "Concurrently, a Chicago construction worker named Marc Smith was growing bored with academic poetry readings. In 1984, at the Get Me High Lounge, Smith devised the format that has come to be known as slam poetry." -- Jmabel | Talk 07:01, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

While it is true that Marc Smith started the current poetry slam format and that part of the statement just needs a citation. It should also be stated that Marc Smith only modified a current poetry reading situation that existed in the Chicago area where two poets would stand in a boxing ring in boxing gloves and trunks on occasion a go 10 rounds or so (it varied) with each other reading. With a huge audience participation. Some of this information has been recounted on http://www.e-poets.net/library/slam/converge.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.250.215.193 (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Article title wrong

The title of this article should be American poetry and not "Poetry in the United States" that could apply to any poetry here. Like English Poetry or Greek Poetry, the title should more accurately read "American Poetry". What do others think? --Northmeister 21:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I know this is an old one, but he makes a good point. Not to split hairs, but I think it's permissible to have poetry of any national origin in the United States so, in theory, this article implies it is about the reception of all world poetry in America. Perhaps a renaming is worth considering? --Midnightdreary 22:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Still old, but still relevant. I did a search for "American poet" from the left nav bar, and there were 16 articles that ranked above this one. While I understand there is academic debate, I've found this article to be very informative; I think it should have taken top billing in my search results.

As the previous posters note, changing the title would likely expand the topic outside of the canon. This article could then grow in length, or it could become a subpage of a larger topic. Either way, visitors looking for "American poetry" or "American poets" would be more likely to find this article quickly.

KayCee Cat (talk) 01:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Adelaide Crapsey

Is Adelaide Crapsey really a major enough figure to merit mention in this article? We're not trying to list every poet in U.S. history. - Jmabel | Talk 07:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"Bradstreet" picture

This looks like a generic 19th or early 20th century magazine illustration based on no particular resemblance to Bradstreet. I suggest dropping it.--PhD 23:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)PhD

According to the identified image source, that's supposed to be her. Of course, the source itself does raise some copyright questions. --Evb-wiki 23:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:FACT check

As of the time on this post, every date in the World War II and after section has bee methodically checked (I even had to contact http://www.poets.org to have them correct stuff). All dates of birth and death (where applicable) are now correct in this section. Also, all of the Black Mountain poets' stuff is correct. Most of the other stuff has been checked. The only exception is the paragraph on the Small Press poets. I can't wait until it's not poetry stuff for the WP:FACT collab. Good luck. --Ali'i 16:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! A Musing (formerly Sam) 18:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Poetry of the United States

Hello You seemed to be informative about reverting drastic revisions back to the original article. This unknown person called poetactionboy [1] seemed to taken upon himself to do drastic revisions with the article on Poetry of the United States. I do my share of editing many articles but I don't how to revert unsourced revision back to where the article was before such drastic revision. Can you give me any advice on this matter? Thank you for your careful scrutiny on your other reversion. Pjt48 (talk) 01:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the changes as a whole... [2] he moved and combined sections rather and did some minor grammar changes. Not being a specialist in poetry, American or otherwise, I recommend you take a good look at the changes as a whole and discuss it with him on the talk page of the article or his talk page the parts that you are having trouble with. --CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 12:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Sir I see you did substantial amount of revisions on the article of "American Poetry". You seemed to be quite knowledgeable of the steady stream of American poetry history. However you did considerable deletions in the midst of your sequence of revisions. I know that no single person can arbitrarily and objectively make perfect the most accurate account of such a broad subject and article such as American Poetry. I would like to know more about you and why don't you log in and indocrinate a user page. You will no doubt have other users questioning your contributions. You do know when you make drastic revisions you need to have reliable citations to reinforce your objectivity. One has to be watchful not to be too opinionated. I would like to discuss with you for instance why you deleted references to Small press poets and iconclastic poets such as Robert Bly, James Dickey, Robert Peters and other minor maverick poets. You had deleted my entry of including these major poets. It would nice to know more about your arbitrations and who you are. Again it is evident to me you do know the American poetic scenes quite acutely and I do admire your ability of consolidating this article that you took considerable liberty of incorporating your stances on American poetry. You made the article cleaner but it's your deletions of certain writers and movements I'm curious about. Sincerely Pjt48 (talk) 18:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Pjt48. Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure in what sense Robert Bly and James Dickey are "iconoclastic" or "minor mavericks." Bly is probably one of the most influential critics and translators of the last 30 years, and I didn't delete him, but rather re-incorporated him (prominently) into the already existing paragraph about Deep Image poetry. Bly's work on Iron John, while interesting, seems more relevant to self-help than to poetry. And I find it hard to imagine the author of a best-selling "Deliverance," and judge of the Yale Series of Younger Poets, as a maverick. Dickey belongs, I'd argue, in the first paragraph of the Post-War section, with Jarrell and the other soldier-poets of the 40's and 50's. As for Peters, this article was the first I'd ever heard of him -- which may just be a reflection of my own ignorance; he sounds like an interesting and worthwhile poet, and I'll certainly go explore his work. And I would argue that the Small Press poets by their very definition aren't yet prominent enough to warrant attention in an article meant to give the broadest possible outlines of 300+ years of US poetry. But, as I suggested in the article's talk page, the obvious solution is to create a series of sub-articles in which these and related movements might be discussed in proportion to their significance. Does that sound reasonable? Poetactionboy (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Pjt48. Thanks for paying attention. I'm sorry if I've done injury to any of your hard work. Most of what I did was regrouping and cleanup -- I realize some of it's not yet sourced, but I'm looking for the right links. It did seem to me that some of the material on the page was poorly sourced or completely unsourced, and some of it seemed to fall outside general notability guidelines. Why not incorporate them into a separate page on alternative poetries (along with slam, online 'zines, etc.?) Poetactionboy (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Poetactionboy I do hope other folks well versed in American Poetry would enter the discussion of what poets are notable be them major or minor and have these voices included in "Poetry of the United States". It is very important to get a more comphrehensive survey of the world of American poetry and its history apart from the traditional, academic standardized perspectives. The recorded survey has to be more inclusionary rather than exclusionary. For example, could one accept the resourceful fact that a American poet such as Charles Bukowski is now considerable force to be considered as a viable and integral part in American poetry history whether his impact is academic or nonacademic? Pjt48 (talk) 13:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Pjt48. I was under the impression that Wikipedia was meant to be an encyclopedia, a repository of common or collective knowledge -- which, however boring that might sound, simply reflects the broadest possible consensus. That consensus might, or might not, be academic (whatever that means), but it's undeniably traditional, in the sense that tradition is what is generally considered worth of carrying over. I don't imagine it, in short, as a sort of revisionary vehicle by which individuals might right the perceived wrongs of history, or make the canon more "inclusionary." BTW, I think the inclusion of Bukowski is perfectly sound -- he probably is, after all, one of the most widely-read poets of the last 30 years -- but then why not make the next logical step, & include Rod McKuen? (which I'd also be totally in favor of). In the end I don't think our personal opinions about who's major and who's minor are really that important. What I think this article needs is really a sensible distribution of emphasis. In the 300+ years that poetry has been written in the US, I think most of us would agree on the importance of Whitman and Dickinson, but even the reputation of poets like Eliot and Pound, once considered unassailable, is coming up for question. So, I'd argue that the article should focus on the interrelationship of general trends, rather than be a list of related individual or sui generis poets. I propose a solution: why not create a series of sub-articles (Modernism, Post-War, Contemporary) in which these issues can be expanded upon at greater length? Poetactionboy (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello again Poetactionboy

This was the section that I did that you deleted from the Poetry Article.

"During this time frame there were also major independent voices who defied links to well known poetic movements and forms. Robert Bly became famous for Iron John: A Book About Men and arguably a cultural phenom for liberating American men to be sensitive to their gentler selves. James Dickey became famous for his best selling novel Deliverance, but had already established himself as a poet and literary critic. Robert Peters, greatly influenced by the Victorian English poet Robert Browning’s poetic monologues, became reputable for executing his monologic personae like his Mad King Ludwig II of Bavaria into popular one man performances. He, like Dickey, also established himself as an acerbic literary critic. Then there were original minor voices with their own poetic niches, like Wilma Elizabeth McDaniel known as “dust bowl” poet and Alfred Starr Hamilton comparable to the English poet John Clare for being supported by other poets for their genuine poetic gifts."

As you can see I didn't mean to imply That Bly or Dickey were "minor mavericks". I guess my syntax in my last note to you was misleading. The sampling "minor Mavericks" were meant to be applied to "Hamilton" and "McDaniel". I truly appreciate your stance that the Wiki article on "American Poetry" should be similar to fashioning the entry like a standard enclopedia would do in terms of "the broadest possible outlines". I thought my contribution would just be a tad more inclusive with these three well known poets including Robert Peters. I do acknowledge that you did incorporate reference to Bly elsewhere. I also realize as time goes on there will be other wiki contributers editing this article of concern without the "broad possible outlines" in mind. I trust you do have this "Broad" sense of awareness of what it takes for the article to maintain this set standard. I do hope others will join us with discussions of what inclusions to this article would meet the wiki's criteria. Your points are all well taken including your suggestions of "series of sub-articles". I also sense you are fair mindedness in exploring the trends, movements, waves, forms of American poetry and its poets. I just feel there is a place for revisionism when comes to including poetic stuff that may of been excluded from the "broad" standards of inclusion. I appreciate your expertise and again I hope more poetic folks will join us making "American poetry" article first rate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjt48 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Pjt48 (talk) 19:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Should there be a Native American Poetry section?

I don't know how to make a new Wiki page but should there be? Toodle007 (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Huh?

"The history of American poetry is not easy to know. Much of the American poetry published between 1910 and 1945 remains lost in the pages of small circulation political periodicals, particularly the ones on the far left, destroyed by librarians during the 1950s McCarthy era."

"Not easy to know"? That seems rather subjective. Much of the poetry published anywhere before the advent of the internet remains lost in the pages of periodicals with small circulations or little poetry collections few people bought, but so what? I think the idea that most American poetry c. 1910-1945 (why so specific? and why didn't they "get" anything past 1945?) was completely annihilated by McCarthyite librarians is rather ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.195.198.151 (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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Where is Bob Dylan?

It smacks bizarre that Bob Dylan's name appears zero times in such a lengthy article about American poetry. If I'm counting right, he is the only American poet to win the Nobel Literature Prize. Is this elitism or oversight? Lukacris (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Lack of citations

An article of this length should have far more citations than it does. Perhaps the first five paragraphs and last five paragraphs of the article are cited well, but the entire section on "modernism and after" has exactly zero citations, and in other sections there are no citations for perhaps five or six paragraphs at a time. I'm going to put a 'needs additional sources for verification' template up, because, especially for an article of this importance, this needs to be fixed. Dinithi2 (talk) 19:58, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi! I'm commenting to reiterate that this is still a problem. There are only 19 references for this entire page, and there are major subsections (like "Modernism and after") that still don't have a single citation. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 19:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Lack of perspective?

As previous commenters have noted - why aren't less traditonal forms of poetry (e.g. rap and Bob Dylan) more represented in this article? Especially given the the latters status as one of very few American Nobel laurates within poetry. And in the last section "American poetry today" why is Amanda Gorman not mentioned? She is perhaps the only contemporary poet to have broken into mainstream attention. Which is a huge accomplishment - given the 2020 shitstorm. This seems, atleast to the untrained eye, classic wikipedia bias at work! i.e. glorifying academia and failing to include non-white perspectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KFML2000 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ENGL A120 Critical Thinking

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tswolfestudent (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Tswolfestudent (talk) 08:53, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Disclosed COI

Hi! My name is Noah, and I work for the Harold B. Lee Library at BYU. I'll be working on this page. Please feel free to reach out with any questions, comments, or concerns regarding any of the changes I make, and feel free to review my user page for questions regarding my background and my COIs. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Noah Hickman (BYU), thanks for posting your COI here. I'm a bit concerned in regards to receiving payment for editing Wikipedia vs. editing as an unpaid volunteer (as I do).

According to your page you seem to be working with a professer and seem to have a close relationship with a literary critic. In addition to receiving payment, are you working for a grade?

Furthermore, are you consulting with your relatives who are Am. Lit scholars?

All that said, it's good to see that page being improved, but please be aware of various policies that apply. I'll post them if/when relevant. The most important thing now is to figure out the original and or the prevailing citation style and adhere to that instead of introducing a new one without achieving consensus first. Please see Wikipedia:CITEVAR. Victoria (tk) 21:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Victoria - I appreciate the reply and I certainly appreciate your concerns. I work under the supervision of Rachel Helps (BYU) who is not my professor, just my friend and fellow Wikipedian, and I'm not working for a grade. I'm an hourly employee of the Harold B. Lee Library which has started a Wikipedia team to 1) give employed students an opportunity for practical writing experience and 2) function as a public service. In other words, outside of compelling me to spend time working on Wikipedia articles, there's nothing about my paid status that would inflect on the edits or contributions I make to Wikipedia.

To answer your other questions, the literary critic is my cousin, but he works in a different subfield of American Literature than I do, and, even if we did work in the same circles, I would never cite his work on Wikipedia out of an abundance of caution and respect for WP:COI.

I do occasionally talk with my father about Am. Lit since it is a shared interest of ours, but I have never actively pursued his advice about an edit I make to an article. Every edit I have made has tried to reflect the citation standards articulated in WP:RS.

I'll be conscientious of Wikipedia:CITEVAR moving forward. Are you specifically referring to my use of the SFN template? Is there a specific template I should defer to in the future for this page?

You mentioned that there was a longstanding consensus among the page editors about the name for the post-revolution period in American Literature. I wasn't able to find that discussion on the talk page. Do you have access to those discussions so that I can review and participate in them? As you can tell, I'm still learning best-practices on Wikipedia, and I certainly should have consulted the talk page before making such a substantial unilateral edit. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I thought doing it as an unpaid volunteer was a public service! Silly me.Apologies for the rude reply. But, in my view, the dynamic is changed when editors are paid, receive library access, off-wiki mentorship, and have access to specialist knowledge. Generally this project is for those of us who are unpaid volunteer who give our (very limited, in my case) time to the project.

Anyway, re citevar, yes, in regards to introducing sfn. But having looked through the history, if no one objects it's probably best to convert all the refs. I don't use templates because they are difficult to read & in my view not at all accessible vs. hand writing the citations per MLA, but and generally I'd object, but am somewhat discombobulated by the amount of BYU editing going I'm seeing on my watchlist, and only ask at this point that relevant policies are followed.

Re longstanding consensus: that section heading has been in place since the article's inception, which was written by the poet Filiocht. Because it's stayed stable for 20 years, it's considered de facto long-standing consensus. I've looked at the anthologies I have at hand and see that Heath classifies as "Colonial" to 18th c; then classifies by centuries or subcenturies (i.e "Early 19th century). My edition of Norton (which admittedly is quite dated) uses "Postcolonial". Regardless, it would be nice to get agreement. I reverted "The New Rebublic" because if feels a bit NPOV to me, but let's see if anyone else chimes in. In terms of taking over articles like, it's a good idea to check the history > page statistics, to familiarize yourself with authorship etc.

Finally, I changed the lead image & got rid of the ugly nav box, but that's up for discussion too if anyone objects to Emily Dickinson. I only threw it in because it was there in an early version of the article. There is lot of work to be done here, no quibbles about that. Victoria (tk) 00:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

No worries on the reply. I hadn't considered how the dynamic might shift when an editor is paid, but each of those concerns is absolutely justified. I'm eager not to undermine the hard work of other editors or the collaborative process generally, and I have been brainstorming ways to hedge against those potential problems. One idea I had is to share scans of sources I cite so that interested parties can check my work and to prevent inadvertent gatekeeping on my part. You mentioned that volunteer editors usually donate from their limited free time to the project, so another idea I had is a standing latency period on my part between suggesting major edits and executing them in order to give other editors sufficient time to review and respond. I'm open to other solutions, as well.

As to the citation style, I defer to you. I have been using SFN simply because I was taught to do so, but I'm a fan of MLA and have no objections to writing out the citations, especially if it makes the page more readable.

I'll make sure I check page histories moving forward. I see how that makes sense as a best practice. Your objection to "The New Republic" as an NPOV error makes sense to me as well. My concern with "postcolonial" is with its connotations, specifically that, as I understand it, "postcolonial" has, in recent years, most commonly come to suggest Postcolonialism and could be confusing to a potential reader. Perhaps I could start a new thread in the talk page where we can hash out the specifics.

As for the recent changes, they all look great (to my admittedly novice eye). I think Dickinson is as excellent an emblem for American poetry as any other poet. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 18:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for being so gracious! It's not really necessary for you to go through so much work. After thinking it over, here are my thoughts:

Re section headings: since you have library access the best thing would be to do a source review and then follow the sources. I was able to download a newer version of The Norton Anthology of American Literature than the ones on my shelf, linked here. It's the 7th edition, but it's probably been updated. This 7th edition classifies by date, as does my 2007 edition of Lauter's Heath Anthology of American Literature, link to an updated edition here. Once you've determined how those anthologies, and perhaps some others, treat the classification, the section headings should probably be changed accordingly throughout.

Re citations: for an example of an article without citation templates see Ezra Pound. For an example of an article newly converted to citation templates see H.D. (and also the discussion about the conversions on H.D's talkpage). Rule of thumb is to choose a style and stick with it, i.e sfn. I believe the harv suite of templates is being deprecated or some of them have, so it's best to avoid those. If you're up to the work then converting throughout might be the first place to start. In these big humanties articles we tend to list all the sources at the bottom, rather than adjacent to the text, to minimize clutter in the edit window, then just use short notes. I'd advise getting some familiarity with the templates before implementing; it's always a bit annoying to try to fit in the huge list of editors for the anthologies instead of simply using something like Philip Gura et. al.

I'll keep an eye out and pitch in to help whenever I'm around. I'm always available to answer questions or offer advice. I'm honestly excited to see some work being done here. Both Ezra Pound and H.D. were written by Filiocht, who wrote this. His work is excellent, always well written in summary style, but done in the early days of Wikipedia before inline cites were required. A word of caution: it's a lot of work. I worked on Pound for years!!

I'll stop now. Later I have a few thoughts about the modernists, but there's plenty to do before reaching that section. Victoria (tk) 16:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

That sounds good to me! I'll look at both of those anthologies and the few I have access to and come up with something representative of the trends between them. I'll also dedicate some time to reading and practicing citation standards and then work on the page citations. Thank you for your patience with me as I ease into Wikipedia community. I'll certainly have some questions moving forward! Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 23:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. My advice is to start with the citations – going through the article top-to-bottom reformatting gives a good sense of what's in the article and, at least for me, helps with ideas for restructuring. Going to additional sources to check trends for the section headings is a good idea – particulary those sources that focus only on poetry. Lots of anthologies devote entire editions to specific movements, i.e the modernists. Or whatever movement Whitman fits into these days. If I get to it, now that I have access to an updated Norton, I might swing through the article myself and make some edits, but I have other work I've committed to, so not sure whether I'll get to it. In the meantime, I'm around if you have questions. Victoria (tk) 01:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Ongoing SFN Conversion

Hey all, I just wanted to note that my ongoing Template:Sfn conversion may take several days as I learn the finer details of that citation template. I appreciate your patience with the copious individual edits that have flooded the page history - I am trying to consolidate the edits as much as possible. I am also open to suggestions or help if you see that I've made a mistake. Many thanks. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 20:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Take your time Noah; it's not a job that should be rushed, and don't worry about making lots of little edits. In my view, it's the best way to edit. I'll take a look tomorrow and post comments. There is a script that helps identify the errors that are showing up in the edit window, that I can point out to you as well, but don't have time this evening. Victoria (tk) 00:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Noah, to add to the comment above: do you know how to intall user scripts? If not, let me know and I'll try to walk you through. User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors is a script that highlights sfn errors, which can be helpful. If you scroll down the page you'll see the instructions for intalling. Usually it gives a "no target" error, which means the ref is defined in the short note, but has no target because the long citation hasn't been defined in the "References" section at the bottom of the article, although it also highlights other syntax errors. I thought I'd mention it; it might help. Good luck, Victoria (tk) 23:36, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Hey Victoria, I haven't ever tried out user scripts, but I'll read that page and give it a shot. Thank you for showing me that! If I can get it to work, that will make my life a ton easier. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 18:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Noah, if you haven't tried it yet do this: 1., click on User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors; 2., scroll down the "Installation" section; 3., simply copy the two lines of code that begin with the words, "mw.loader"; 4., underneath those two lines will be a link to Special:MyPage/common.js - click that link; 5., clicking the link to "MyPage" will bring you to a javascript page dedicated to you and dedicated for your skin (it will be a redlink and should be called something like "Noah Hickman (BYU). vector-22.js"; 6., paste those two lines of code into that page and save; 7., ignore the scary message you get and simply clear your cache by reloading the page. Voila! Done. Good luck and let me know how it goes. P.s I have to install it myself because I've changed skins, so if you want to wait until I can do it when we're both here and you can see how I install to my .js page. Victoria (tk) 23:19, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Victoria, sorry for the delay in my response - I took a few days to finish some stub/start articles. I just finished installing the script using your directions, and it looks like it worked! It opened my SFN third-eye, so to speak, and the script has highlighted an SFN error already. Thank you for showing me that - this is going to make the conversion process so much easier. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 21:22, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Cool! Third eye is an apt description. Victoria (tk) 23:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Overlooked Poets?

Hey all,

I have been trying to find some working standardized metric for determining relevance/influence/importance (read, WP:NOTE) of a given poet to American poetry in order to double-check the page for any inadvertently overlooked writers. I acknowledge that trying to standardize anything related to the history of American poetry is more or less futile, and the process of historicizing the American canon will always be, at some level, a curation that requires (subjective) editorial judgment calls.

With that disclaimer in mind, I decided that a survey of anthologies might be a good jumping-off point. I do not think, to clarify, that frequency of anthologization = notability, and there are clear problems with relying on anthologies for this kind of work (period or topic bias, recency bias, the self-referential tendencies of anthologies, to name a few). For example, Robinson Jeffers is anthologized as frequently as T.S. Eliot, but I can confidently wager that 99% of Am. Lit scholars working in the last five decades would argue that T.S. Eliot's influence (as both poet and critic) on American poetry outweighs Jeffers by several orders of magnitude. I do think, however, Jeffers deserves his mention on the page, and if - for some reason - he had been overlooked, his ubiquity in anthologies would be a strong signal for reevaluating his absence.

So I chose (mostly arbitrarily/based off ease of access) the following eight anthologies to survey:

The Treasury of American Poetry (Doubleday, 1978) ISBN 978-1568653679

African-American Poetry of the Nineteenth Century (University of Illinois Press, 1992) ISBN 978-0-252-06246-9

Postmodern American Poetry, 1st ed. (Norton, 1994) ISBN 0393310906

Norton Anthology of American Literature, 5th ed. (Norton, 1998) ISBN 0-393-95871-X

The New Anthology of American Poetry (Rutgers, 2003) ISBN 0-8135-3161-6

Twentieth-Century American Poetry (McGraw-Hill, 2003) ISBN 978-0072400199

Oxford Book of American Poetry (Oxford UP, 2006) ISBN 978-0195162516

The Penguin Anthology of Twentieth-Century American Poetry (Penguin, 2013) ISBN 978-0143121480

I did deliberately include African-American Poetry of the Nineteenth Century in order to account for any latent biases against black writers in earlier anthologies. In retrospect, this may have been unnecessary, but it is what it is. I tallied the number of times an individual appeared and transcribed their frequency in a google sheet (which you can view here).

I decided that I would only list poets who were anthologized a minimum of twice and that I would only categorize/label poets who were anthologized a minimum of four times. Note that I've tried to group writers according to period in order to account for period biases in my chosen anthologies. By color-coding poets according to era, it was easier for me to determine their frequency of anthologization relative to poets in their period rather than to the overall most anthologized writers (see, for example, Anne Bradstreet compared to Countee Cullen).

Using the table, I found a few potential blind spots on the page. I believe we should consider including mentions of the following poets:

1. Robert Hayden and the Black Arts Movement

2. Louise Bogan

3. Paul Laurence Dunbar

4. Edgar Lee Masters

5. Amy Lowell

With the exception of Hayden (who probably deserves a sentence or two of additional context), I think a brief mention would sufficient for each of these writers, especially given the overview-style of the page. I'm not immediately prepared to make any changes, and I wanted to present these potential updates to the talk page before moving forward with anything else. Very happy to hear any comments or additional thoughts. Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 18:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

This is a good start. It's probably worth looking in the more recent scholarly work. Norton Anthology of American Literatureis now at the 8th or 9th edition, here's a link to the 7th edition here. Are you able to get access to more recent editions? If this article is to be rewritten it would be useful to use current sources, especially since you represent BYU library. Victoria (tk) 20:40, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that's wise counsel. I checked, and the library had a copy of the 9th edition, so I've updated the Google Sheet to include that anthology. There is, technically, a 10th edition, but I think that was released exclusively as a shorter version of the 9th (with a couple additional contemporary writers, but I'm not currently worried about accounting for them). Noah Hickman (BYU) (talk) 21:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't go to too much trouble, but it would be interesting to see if much has changed between the 7th and 9th editions. Specifically I'm wondering if H.D. is being anthologized yet. There's been increased interest in her poetry in recent years & she ties in with Ezra Pound & that crew in Paris - but I did slip in mention of her in a recent edit. Take a look at this section in Ezra Pound - Des Imagistes, dispute with Amy Lowell#Des Imagistes, dispute with Amy Lowell for an interesting story re Amy Lowell. I'd forgotten that Lowell won a Pulitzer Prize so she should probably included. Victoria (tk) 23:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)