Talk:Barack Obama

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He is not African American

He and his wife are members of an Afrocentric African-separatist church, Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. The church's website [1] describes the church's predominantly race-based belief system as follows:

"Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God

2. Commitment to the Black Community

3. Commitment to the Black Family

4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."

Obama is more correctly referred to as an African-African-American. Contemporary use of the term African-American refers to those Americans of African descent that trace their heritage to the black experience in America before the 20th century. Being that neither his maternal, nor his paternal heritage can claim such an experience, makes calling him African-American extreme disinformation. - JC

He's African and he's American, thus he's African American. 23:30 February 21, 200 - Fentoro

My God this is a stupid title. Most African Americans have some White ancestry and 1 out of 6 White Americans have some non-White ancestry. You know what-- he is 100% American, Can we get over this idiocy and focus on what the man has to offer as a potential President?

Commitment to the black community, the black family, the black work ethic, another reference to the black community, black leadership, black value system. This isn't racism?? Has very little to do with Obama, but if I started a Caucaso-Centric church based on promoting the white community and white leaders, you think people would let it slide as easily? Gosh, this country's messed up. Regardless, who cares if he's an African-American, an African-African-American, African, or American? Does it really matter?

67.42.243.184 19:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

He is a mulatto, or mixed race, which ever you prefer.Ernham 01:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Race is self-identified here in the U.S., and he identifies himself as African-American. That he is biracial is discussed in the article, though. Italiavivi 01:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity is self-identified, not race, sorry, not even if it's "politically favorable", as in the case with this guy's phantom race. Additionally, African-american is often reserved only for those that are the descendants of the orignal slaves brought here from Africa hunreds of years ago. I see two strikes against him for the supposed label of "african american"Ernham 01:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed a lot and a compromise was finally reached. He is an American, for sure. He is also "black", as that word is used in the USA. The article does not say he is African American, it only quotes the Senate Historical Office. Steve Dufour 05:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the article does state that he is African-American: "In February 1990, he gained national recognition for becoming the first African American to be elected president of the Harvard Law Review." He is also included in the Wikipedia categories Category:African American politicians and Category:African American Senators. -Silence 06:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That sentence could be tweeked a bit. As for the categories, I don't think we want to say that he is NOT an African American when he says he is one. Getting back to Ernham's post: A "mulatto" or a "person of mixed race" can be a member of the group of people called "African Americans".Steve Dufour 06:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Then it would be superfluous to have the words "mulatto" and "mixed-race" if the aren't really definitive. I know one thing for sure, if/when the exploratory committee decides he should run, the article should read, "If elected, he would be the first African-American (I know I'm not going to win this on here so I guess I'll let you all have your little fun), as well as the first biracial president." Shakam 06:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The ironic thing is that if he had tried to distance himself from being labeled an African American he would have been strongly criticized for that. So he just can't win with certain people. Steve Dufour 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

His father was born in Alego, Kenya, Africa, and his mother was born in Wichita, Kansas, America. Sounds African-American to me. Ground Zero | t 21:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

GZ, exactly correct. I made the same point in one of the thousands of earlier rounds on this. I can't believe this is still being "discussed" - frankly, it makes me sick. Tvoz | talk 22:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand where people are coming from on this? Are they saying he shouldn't be elected president because he isn't black enough? (anti-Obama statement) Or are they saying that someone so talented could not really be black? (anti-black statement) Steve Dufour 06:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

When one refers to something such as "african amrican", you are refering to a cultural element that is found in north america. This unique cultural element is completely different on an ethnic level than someone that is the first generation son of an African immigrant(with a phd no less) raised in upper middle-class suburbia. To correctly refer to him in a "racial way", you would have to call him half caucasoid and half negroid. We don't usually use terms like that. Someone said that because he is "black" and lives in the US he can use the term "afircan-american". That's interesting because I have an Indian(ethnically indian!) friend at college that is at least two shades darker than Barack. Here's the kicker: he also came from african immigrants(south africa). Is he really African American too? HmmmErnham 15:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Obama is what he is. The article gives all the facts needed for a person to make up his or her mind about what label to put on him. If you like you can write an op-ed type article expressing your views and if you get it published I will cite it in the article. Just leave a note on this talk page. Steve Dufour 16:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The article should not mention race, period. Give the facts and let people decide. You have already declared him african american in the first paragraph. That's absurd POV pushing nonsense. This wiki is already an "op-ed", unfortunately. Ernham 18:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It's your POV that this article should not mention race. The facts have been given and this issue has been brought up not only here but is mentioned in numerous places. Those who advocate not mentioning race in my view have an agenda and such should not be given serious consideration. Also, someone who says "period" when making a statement of opinion is the one who is pushing a POV especially when they call noting Obama's description of himself as absurd. It is acceptable in living biographies to cite the source's own statement about themselves ranging from political descriptions to religious and racial descriptions. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Race itself is often an ambiguous and "messy" concept. No need for it here, really. We have a picture and we have the facts on who his parents were. Present those and let the reader decide. I also specifically asked for a statement BY HIM. Those you provide clearly refer to him in third person and do not fit the bill. I want a statement by him. Ernham 16:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, your position isn't in line with Wikipedia policy, but I'll humor you; he uses it throughout Dreams from My Father. For example, here's a sentence from the first page from the "Preface to the 2004 edition": "As I mention in the original introduction, the opportunity to write the book came while I was in law school, the result of my election as the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review." —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 17:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Part of his importance is that he is a black (as that word is defined in the USA) American. The opening paragraph only quotes the Senate Historical Office on his African American-ness. Steve Dufour 18:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

We'll just see what happens on 2/10. Shakam 05:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

So, he can call himself African American, even if he's not? Seriously, he's half white, half black. He's no more African American, than he is white. How do you think people would react if he called himself white? It's amazing how reverse racism works. Anyone can call themselves African American, while it's a crime to be white.

That doesn't make a modicum of sense, but that's irrelevant. Can we please keep political posturing OFF THIS PAGE? This talk page is meant for discussing changes to the article, not to debate his candidacy. Thanks. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 17:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is some people think that Wikipedia is a campaign tool and not an encyclopedia. This discussion about whether he is African American or half-black/half-white is best left outside of this article. Yet, even when this issue is dropped it will be brought up in a week or two weeks as another political hack decides to come to Wikipedia and promote their POV on this subject. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If he calls himself African American Wikipedia should rely upon his statement just like Wikipedia would rely upon his statement that he is a Democrat. We don't use people's POV as to what is African-American and what isn't to decide whether someone would be labeled as such. The only legitimate source as to whether he is an African American is Obama himself. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'd have no issue with the inclusion of the term "african american" if he himself has described himself as such. in the absence of such "proof", it should only be said who his parents are (there is a picture of him, obviously) and let the reader make their own "logical" conclusions. Ernham 02:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The Meet Barack section of BarackObama.com states, "He went on to earn his law degree from Harvard in 1991, where he became the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review." It goes on to say, "In 2004, he became the third African American since Reconstruction to be elected to the U.S. Senate." I think that we violate neutrality when we decide that we will not mention that Barack Obama is African American when he himself has stated that he is. We walk a fine line when we decide that those who define African-American one way are correct and therefore ignore the obvious fact that he claims to be African-American. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 05:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"The only legitimate source as to whether he is an African American is Obama himself." - This is not in line with WP policy. This has been discussed to death in the archives. Please look back through them before throwing more verbiage out her. Basically what it breaks down to is that you use the racial designation used in the source you are quoting/paraphrasing/summarizing. For example you will notice in the first paragraph he is referred to indirectly as the first African American senator. That designation was used because the source being cited used it. It is notable, verifiable, etc. There is no need to gratuitously add racial designators. But if you cite a newspaper article calling him "black" then use black. If you refer to a quote from Obama himself that uses "African American" use that. There is no need to use one "true" designation. His racial/ethnic/national history is well discussed in the article. Adding your own arbitrarily decided designators is not acceptable no matter what standard "you" (this means any one editor) believes is the "standard." Use your cites and don't add extraneous racial designators. It is that simple. --Rtrev 02:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sure that this has been discussed before and am sure that it is now being discussed because someone else brought it up but past discussions on this does not prevent current or future discussions from taking place. Also, I do not intend to spend time reading the archives when it is sufficient to discuss what has been brought up. If there are points made in the archives before other editors have arrived that you feel are important than you should mention them but don't assume that new editors or editors who have chosen to have input on this article are going to rely heavily upon past discussions. That you and others may have discussed this before does not give you immunity from having to discuss it with those of us who were not a part of those discussions. I also do not think that your interpretation of Wikipedia policy regarding racial desgination is correct. There are sources which state that he is African American and therefore it makes sense to state as a part of this article that he is based on those sources with citation. If there is a conflicting reliable source than that can be provided for but sources which conflict with statements that have been made by a living person are required to be removed. There are certain criteria for including information provided by the person and these are:

Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if:

• Information meets verifiability, NPOV, and no original research policies.
• It is relevant to the person's notability;
• It is not contentious;
• It is not unduly self-serving;
• There is no reasonable doubt that it was provided by the subject.

This information is verifiable, is neutral, and is not original research. It is relevent to Obama's notability (i.e., he is an African-American candidate for President), and it is not contentious. This information does not unduly benefit Obama and it is clear that the information was provided by Obama as it is available on his website. To impose a requirement that racial designators that are used by Obama himself to describe himself not be included in this article is a POV and violates Wikipedia policy. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 05:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that you can't use Obama's racial designation for himself. I merely stated that wasn't the only one you can use. It clearly lays it all out in the policy you just copied and pasted there. Its a matter of usage. It is fine to say he is an African-American presidential candidate if you have a nice cite talking about it (which there are many). What is not appropriate is tossing out racial designators wherever an editor thinks it sounds nice (I am not saying that you have or want to do this... it has just happened in the past). --Rtrev 06:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are able to show based on policy that using racial designations that the subject of the biography uses to describe themselves as editors think appropriate than you would have a point yet there is nothing in policy which prohibits or otherwise requires that such descriptions not be used. If this is not the case than you should reference the policy in question. The Manual of Style refers to this as, "Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves" and "this can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself." I don't intend to edit this article so you need not worry about whether I will ever use the word African-American anywhere in the article. I am here simply to add to the discussions on the talk page. I don't agree that it's inappropriate to refer to Obama as African-American wherever an editor feels it appropriate to mention and I believe that only one citation (with multiple sources as necessary) at the first mention of his being African-American is sufficent and that each reference to his being African-American need not be cited. The statements included in the article about Obama being African American stand alone on the few citations. Another example is religious designators which need to be cited once and then the person can be referred throughout the article as Catholic if they are consistent with other policies such as neutrality. It may have happened in the past that people included "racial designators wherever they thought that it sounds nice" and on the face there is nothing inappropriate about this except where it violates other policies. Edward Lalone | (Talk) 19:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You can't compare what a person chooses to be, to how a person is born. Bad analogy. Shakam

PLEASE READ RE: RACE DISCUSSION

To be more specific for those who don't want to go back through the archives themselves or muck through the WP manual of style. Look at WP:STYLE#Identity as well as WP:NOR. The somewhat definitive discussion can be seen in the archives please look through them! --Rtrev 03:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

People are too lazy to read the archives, they think they are special and that their input is better than what has already been discussed. This topic has been beaten over and over again (with me a contributing factor.) He is not African-American. How about we move forward in time and not backwards??? shakam 06:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

He is not african-american in the way the term is used in the united states, which is in fact unique, just like the sun does not revolve around the earth. Any "debate" that came to a contrary conclusion is not worth my time to read through.Ernham 17:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Unique or no that is not the point. The point is that you should use your sources. IT IS NOT OUR CALL. Wikipedia editors do not make reality we simply report what is out there. The fact is that a lot of people refer to him as "African American" and it is included in many verifiable, notable, and neutral sources. When citing those sources use African American. When citing a source that uses "black" use black. It is not a binary system. Please read WP:STYLE#Identity as well as WP:NOR as I stated above. --Rtrev 05:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So in other words, it's your way or the highway, hmm? Nice to see your attitude (not to mention your POV) so clearly spelled out for us; thanks. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The Earth does in fact go around the sun. Sorry if reality upsets you.Ernham 18:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the American Heritage dictionary an african american is "a Black American with African ancestry". He's african, he's american, he's an african american. Slightly off topic, why do we call blacks african americans when we don't call white people european americans? --Calibas 00:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Generally, we do, we just call them caucasian. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 01:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian doesn't mean european american. --Calibas 17:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, isn't this interesting, then? My indian friend, born in south africa, since he is "blacker" than 95% of the "black" people in the USA, is in infact "aferican american"?Ernham 01:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Is he of African descent? If so, then yes. If not, then no, he's Indian (or Indian-American, I don't know any of the context). Now please, stop your POV pushing. It's becoming beyond ridiculous. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 01:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just jumping into this discussion, I don't see what's to argue about. He's mulatto, and that's really all there is to it. He is African American and Caucasian, therefore mulatto (or of mixed race, if you prefer). End of story. I don't really see the big deal you guys are making this into. _└^Jared_┘^┌_talk^┐  01:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The reality is, if he does in fact want to use the term African American--and we do place that in the lead-- there MUST be a controversy/ criticism establishing that many other African Americans think he is a pretender. If it's not bleated about in the article, then we don't have to include that criticism/controversy. Apparently Barack has even gone as far to defend his usage of the term by claiming "decendents of slaves and recent african immigrants have a lot in common ", a mind bogglingly ridiculous statement if I ever heard one. Ernham 17:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In what way is that ridiculous? The examples he cites are based on skin color. A cab wasn't more likely to stop for him because he wasn't descended from slaves or because his mother was white, a security guard less likely to watch him, a real estate agent more likely to show him a property. He specifically cites the case of African immigrant Amadou Diallo. That seems pretty straight forward. My input, and granted I'm new here, is that he qualifies under all three descriptors: black, African-American, mulatto (or mixed race). However, he isn't designated as being the only mixed-race Senator in the Senate [2] or the first mixed-race editor of the Harvard Law Review [3]. He is listed as African American. Those are two pretty decent sources to cite in an encyclopedia article, regardless of what some editors of the article believe to be the case.--Mykll42 21:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Mykll42 - well put. To my mind, anyone who would seriously question whether Obama should be called black, African American, or a person of color - any of those interchangeable terms - is either blind, illiterate, or with an agenda. And just so you know, I believe that most of the regular editors here would totally agree with you on this and have worked diligently to use common sense and obvious fact when describing him. It is only a few who are hell-bent on squeezing controversy out of the most innocuous statements, and twisting reality to fit their own positions. None of which belongs here, as far as I'm concerned. Good to have you here - I hope you'll stick around and help us keep this article on course. Tvoz | talk 06:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, well put Mykll42. I'll just throw in my two cents here; does it make any sense at all to not call him "black" or "African American"? It doesn't matter exactly what his ethnicity is, his skin tone speaks for itself. Why is this even being debated? He is a "halfrican", which is the same as "mulatto", which is defined as "black". --Hojimachong^talk 06:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The term african american will be removed with a more amibuous term or there WILL be a controversy section added that contains many african american leaders that feel he does not have a right to call himself such. Take your pick. See Ward Churchill's supposed ethnicity, for example. Ernham 18:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Why would you pick a term more ambitious than African American? I don't get what that means. Jiffypopmetaltop

he meant "ambiguous" perhaps? best I can figure Tvoz | talk 23:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think, I'm not sure, that ultimatums are not usually considered civil. Before adding a controversy section, please cite your "many African American leaders" who feel that Barack Obama should not be considered African American and let the community decide if this is an actual controversy or a socio-political equivalent of the Evolution-ID "controversy."Mykll42 23:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

No, Ernham, we try hard here to make decisions based on consensus, and you do not have consensus for removing the term, so I expect it will be reverted. Also, your last note sounded like an ultimatum, and that's also not how we do things here. There are a lot of editors working on this article - try posting some proposed wording here on Talk and see if it flies. Threats aren't going to get you anywhere, and they interfere with the creation and maintenance of a good article. Try a new approach. Tvoz | talk 23:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC) (cross posted with Mykll42 - both of us saying essentially the same thing)

I'm not sure what it "sounded like", nor do I really care. The facts are his racial claims of being "african american" are controversial. I do not believe that they are controversial enough to warrant mention if, and only if, the wiki does not already have a pretext as decribing him as such. Can't have your cake and eat it too.Ernham 02:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You should care what you sound like as that is the first step to being civil. A controversy in the discussion page of his wikipedia article does not imply the existence of a controversy in the real world. Even the Stanley Crouch piece from The Daily News doesn't imply that Obama isn't African American. So, as I said earlier, please cite your sources and we will come to a consensus. Here's one for me: [4] Mykll42 02:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he is called AA because America still lives in the immediate, centennial-past? (rhetorical, don't bother responding)Shakam 04:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Didn't Stephen Colbert interview a women who said Barack is not an African American? While I think he is an African American, and so does the dictionary, a fair amount of published material says he isnt; just do a quick web search and you'll find some of it. I think you should make either a controversy section about his racial identity here, or make or find an article which covers the debate over what is the proper defenition of African American, and put a link to it here. For the record, I am for refering to Barack as an African American in this article, as he fits the dictionary defenition of being one, and it is fairly linear and unblamable to accept the dictionary as the final authority on all questions of what words mean. Some people might argue that Bush is not the president of the United States, because he didn't get more votes then Gore in Florida, or the popular vote. They deserve to be mentioned in wikipedia; it is not proper however that because of their opinions, wikipedia does not flatly call Bush president in his article, and where relevant.-Somebody

If I recall correctly, she said that Obama is not "black", which is more of a social construct than African-American is. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 00:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Having taken a glance at the article, I really don't think it would fit it, to have an section about the debate over whether or not Barack Obama is an African American or not. A sentence could be slipped in, or a link which goes to an article covering the debate over what the proper citerion are for being an African American.-Somebody —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frelt (talk • contribs).

Smoking

Would the fascists who control this article allow some mention of his smoking habit? This been discussed quite a bit in the media and could become a campaign issue. Of course, if we want the article to remain an Obama advertisement, we might want to sweep his nicotine addiction under the rug. Ogeez 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not very civil. A better way to describe it would be this: "Obama's cigarette smoking is getting increased press coverage lately and I think it merits mention in this article. I believe there was a poll out recently (the standard "Would you vote for a qualified _____ for president?" poll) which showed that a large percentage of people would not. I think this merits mention in the article." I would agree that it should go on his campaign page, but not here. The fact that Senator Obama smokes is not notable. The fact that it may affect his campaign, and that his campaign has responded with a "Quit Smoking With Barack" program, is. But not here. Lots of people smoke. Mykll42 20:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So basically the answer is, "No, but we can stick it in an article that no one will ever read." Out of curiosity, does the Obama campaign have a full time staff of volunteers devoted to running this article? There's nothing to prevent that from happening. Given the way any mildly negative information gets suppressed, it wouldn't surprise me. The ironic thing is I think Obama would be better served by un unbiased account of his potential strengths and flaws. But I guess you would rather make this into a second Obama campaign web site. Maybe we should put up a link where people can make donations. Ogeez 22:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't think his being a smoker is negative information and I think his attempt to quit will strike a positive chord with the electorate. My problems with it are not the NPOV issues but the notability issue. About 25% of Americans smoke. I do agree that the election page could be more prominent. Oh, and I don't work for the Obama campaign. Please be civil. Mykll42 22:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil Ogeez and assume good faith of other editors. Referring to editors as "fascists" or accusing editors of working for Obama is not a good way to go about improving this article or any articles on Wikipedia. This article is NPOV and well referenced. It was even a featured article at one point. The Obama smoking issue is not relevant to his notability, per BLP. I understand he has recently quit (or is still currently trying to quit), and this fact may be relevant given that it's generated the note that it has (do a google search for Obama quit smoking if you must), but since he's decided to quit and there's not been any proof of him smoking since, calling him a smoker in this article would qualify as original research, which is not allowed. I know it may appear this article is biased in favor of him, but it has been strictly upheld and maintained per wikipedia policies. Obama just happens to not have generated a lot of negative note, (real) criticism, or (real) controversy. The only thing I can think of that happened recently is the Fox News and Insight Magazine fabrication about him being "muslim", which even then can't be included in his article because 1. The story is false 2. It could only go in the articles for Fox News Controversies and Insight Magazine.

It might help not to look at articles like "We need to have a balanced amount of positive and negative information in this article". Rather, look at it like "We need to use NPOV language/wording, and include relevant, notable information about this person/thing/place/idea in order to represent accurately the person/thing/place/idea we are writing an article about." --Ubiq 23:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Just look back at the rest of this talk page. Every time something negative comes up, it is deemed "not notable." Yet the article includes shameless puffery such as: "The Washington Post noted his ability to work effectively with both Democrats and Republicans, and to build bipartisan coalitions." Is there any other politician who gets this type of treatment? I make no apologies for referring to the editors of this article as fascists, nor for accusing them of working for Obama. Just because they use polite language and come up with excuses like "undue weight" for rejecting negative information does not justify the ridiculous pro-Obama bias of this article. It's not like you're fooling anyone. People will come here looking for answers to questions like "Does he smoke?" or "Is he Muslim?" and instead see this puff-piece that refuses even to acknowledge these issues. Ogeez 00:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because he isn't Muslim. It is clearly indicated in its own section that he joined the United Church of Christ in his 20s. The only issue I have is that more should be explained about how his mom disliked organized religion and his step-father was somewhat secular also. That would finally clear up the whole Muslim thing. But this is completely offtopic. As for on topic stuff, WP:SMOKERS clearly says quitting or smoking does not matter unless it plays an integral part of his life. Sure there are "multiple available citations" but that "does not mean it is notable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article." Gdo01 00:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop right there. WP:SMOKERS is an essay I assembled, one looking for consensus concerning article subjects who are smokers. It is not in any way official policy. I myself am actually of the opinion that Obama's public effort to quit smoking is notable enough for inclusion in the article. Italiavivi 02:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

My mistake but I still don't think quitting smoking is important until he makes it important. He only seriously addressed it once and has not seemed to address it again. Gdo01 00:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. You win. According to official Wikipedia policy, we are not allowed to mention the smoking habits of a guy who wants to be president of the United States and a role model for children. You guys certainly know Wikipedia policy better than I do. I'll give you that much. Maybe we could start a new policy on WP:How_his_parents_met that would say statements like this are not notable: "His parents met while both were attending the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student." Or is that more important that his smoking? Ogeez 00:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to ask you again to not call me a fascist. The object here is to create an encyclopedia article. Between 15-25% of Americans smoke. Barack Obama the Senator smoking is not notable. As an aspect of his political campaign, it is. I note you haven't added anything to the (unprotected, btw) campaign page, or its discussion page for that matter. If we were truly trying to remove negative information, don't you think his past cocaine use would be the first to go? Mykll42 00:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

His smoking might not be notable, but his very public effort to quit smoking is. The Obamas have been very open about it, with countless reliable sources available. Italiavivi 02:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill smoked and drank regularly. Hitler did neither. The point being, smoking has nothing to do with leadership capacity and quality. 205.202.240.101 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above point.

Ogeez, the article is not "ridiculously pro-Obama biased". You're not doing anything to contribute to this article or wikipedia. You came to the wrong place if you were looking to smear a presidential candidate you don't like. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to include relevant, representative information about something. That's what this article does, and it's a fine example of a good article. The problem with including a lot of the "negative" information you want to be included is, none of it is notable. Read the policy. If he were to say something blatantly racist and there was a public reaction/outcry, such that it generated plenty of note, it would be included in this article, regardless of the political affiliations of the editors. But somehow I don't see him doing something like that, so people who see him as a threat will continue coming here to find out why his article is so "biased". --Ubiq 02:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I wish every political figure had as good an article as this. Steve Dufour 19:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be rad to include a fully contextualized discussion of Obama's smoking including the fact that individuals with lower incomes (working-class) are more likely to smoke than those with higher incomes. Also, why doesn't GWB's page list his cocaine use? Probably it's controlled by "fascists" as well. -- Autumninjersey 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Smokin' Obama ! Consider the moment when we first learned that Obama smoked. Did it skewer, however briefly, previous thoughts we held of him, whether yea or nay? Probably. Ok, certainly. Now, after becoming aware of such, did our opinions of him become sufficiently altered that our perception of the man took a new form? Probably, not. If we liked him, we continued to like him. If we didn't, then we continued to not. Net effect of all of this is that the smoking issue is, well, just that, an issue for each of us personally. But, is it an issue of encyclopedic proportion. History says no. Current events say yes. If we decide yes, given the current free-flowing content of Wikipedia, then logic guides to mention, for all public figures, their smoking habits [John Brown, smoker; Jane Brown, non-smoker]. Because if the smoking habit of one is sufficient for encyclopedic entry, then the non-smoking habit of another becomes equally necessary. Since no one is prepared to do that, I vote we leave it out [though it bothers me, personally, that he smokes]. --Free4It 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that including it would be an example of recentism. I don't agree that if it's included in one article, it should be included for all articles — notability of a specific event or characteristic should be determined on an article-by-article basis. I'm certainly sympathetic to the argument that it should be included since the media made a (relatively) big deal out of it a few weeks ago — this has entirely died down, though. If it comes up again in a big way in the campaign, then it should probably be included, at the very least in his 2008 campaign article as a campaign-related issue. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It bears pointing out for the sake of newer users that WP:RECENT is an opinion essay, not a Wikipedia guideline or Wikipedia policy. It is a concise expression of opinion, and does not carry inherent weight in determining article content. I am also personally of the opinion that WP:RECENT directly contradicts WP:NOTABILITY, which is a guideline, in that the notability policy specifically states that notability is generally permanent. Italiavivi 17:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Semi protection?

When was the semiprotection status removed? I signed on after a few hours and saw a tennis match of racial epithets and gorilla pictures on a Senator's page. Mykll42 03:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I Agree, semi protection should be re-instated for anonymous/new users...I counted like 12 revisions of vandalism by anon users over a 10 hour stretch today. Bjewiki 03:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to head over to WP:RFP and make a request for semi-protection. --Bobblehead 03:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree completely with sprot - this is a chronic problem on this article, and it's time that this page get long-term semi-protection, like many others have. This is an embarrassment and only goes to further make Wikipedia look amateuristic and unreliable. I would hope that the regular editors here who have objected in the past will get the message that this is not going to stop in the foreseeable future, despite everyone's hope that it will, and that far greater damage is done by allowing this vicious vandalism than by restricting edits to people who take the 2 minutes it takes to register (as anonymously as they like). I have said this repeatedly - see the archives - and others have agreed. To those who are against sprot: we tried it your way, over and over and over, each time with the hope that this time would be different, but it isn't. Enough is enough. Tvoz | talk 03:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I put in a request. Mykll42 03:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, nothing is also enough. This latest restoration of sprot was blatantly preemptive. IP blocking was not even tried. I have changed to the sprot template that warns unregistered users that their contributions are not welcome on this page. We could do better than this. --HailFire 01:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? sprot2 is exactly the same as sprot. It is IP/new blocking. Just a different tag. Tvoz | talk 01:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The reason I prefer the sprot2 tag is that it is less obtrusive - it doesn't deface the article. It's used all over wikipedia, including Hillary Rodham Clinton, JOhn Kerry, george W. Bush, Tony Blair, and many others. It doesn't indicate the length of term of the sprot, it just doesn't deface the article. Anyone who goes to edit the page is told "Note: This page has been semi-protected so that only established users can edit it.". Tvoz | talk 01:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops. I didn't realize y'all were talking about the templates. I selected the link to the article and saw the template at the top and assumed the sprot was long term so changed it to sprot2 (for the same reasons as Tvoz, apparently). Sorry about that. I can self-revert if you'd like. --Bobblehead 01:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this latest semi protection has a time limit, short or long - but in any case I don't think sprot2 means anything different from sprot - it's just a less in-your-face tag, which I for one prefer. I'm happy to discuss it though.Tvoz | talk 07:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The sprot issue is a moot point. The dictators who rule this article immediately delete almost everything posted by an IP user anyway. Ogeez 05:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC

Excuse me, are you talking about the gorilla picture, the "Iraq Saddam Hussein Osama", the Muslim conversion - or what? I don't know of any editors here who have deleted anything constructive from an IP address just because it was from an IP address, if that is what you're suggesting. That is an absurd assertion, and I don't appreciate your impugning the hard work people put in here. There are no dictators, there are people who work together to reach consensus. GUess what, we don't all agree about everything - far from it. But most of us try to be respectful and listen to the next guy's idea, and come up with reasonable compromises. You win some, you lose some. We have a damn good article, in my opinion - and guess what else: I don't work for Obama, paid, unpaid, volunteer or any other way. I find the man interesting, and I want his article to be fair. I work on Hillary's article too - and lots of others. If you'd like to contribute constructively, great. If not, why are you hanging around here? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. I'm not going to have a debate with you.) Tvoz | talk 07:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't let him get to you. All he's done so far is call editors of this article names (fascists, dictators etc.) and has done absolutely nothing to contribute to it. Best to just ignore him (or perhaps get admin intervention maybe?). --Ubiq 01:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I remind User:Ubiq that "calling for bans or blocks" is considered a serious violation of WP:Civil. Please remember these important community standards.Ogeez 02:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Says the guy calling other editors "fascists" and "dictators." Italiavivi 03:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I find your use of the word "civil" amusing. I said "admin intervention" which sometimes simply means the admin will warn an editor. I think a warning is definitely warranted in this case. I didn't "call for a ban or block" so your point falls flat. --Ubiq 14:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

How will the Obama hawks repress this?

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash6.htm

Less than two months after ascending to the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama bought more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors, the NYT will splash on Wednesday Page Ones.

The paper claims, according to newsroom sources: One of the companies was a biotech concern that was starting to develop a drug to treat avian flu. In March 2005, two weeks after buying about $5,000 of its shares, Obama took the lead in a legislative push for more federal spending to battle the disease.

The paper's Mike McIntire and Chris Drew get front placement [side by side with Libby Coverage] for details of Obama's most recent financial disclosure:

It shows that he bought more than $50,000 in stock in a satellite communications business whose principal backers include four friends and donors who had raised more than $150,000 for his political committees.

A spokesman for Obama says the senator did not know that he had invested in either company.

Impacting late...

As this story develops, its just might, might merit mention along with the Tony Rezko deal. Obama could kill someone and you libs wouldn't mention it, because it's not "relevent" or "npov". What part of "all sum of human knowledge" don't you administrators on a power trip understand. Because you power abusers think it's trivial doesn't make it so, notability is subjective. It's hilarious how glossed over he is, no negative mentions of him at all, and yet it's featured, that's the plutocracy wikipedia for you. Wikitruth is right. Spare me the same lame excuses you give everyone not kissing Obama's ass. Manic Hispanic 06:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that could be a very important story and we will see the impact that it has. But I guarantee you, this post in its various incarnations is absolutely no way to prove your point. Even saying "you libs" seems to indicate to me that you are approaching this article with a POV. OH... here's the Times article: [5] Mykll42 06:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There was no wrongdoing by Obama in the Rezko matter. It would be pointless to put it in his article. As far as this "controversy" goes, Obama apparently did not know he owned the stocks until several months after they were purchased. When he learned of them, he immediately sold them to avoid any perceived conflict of interest (he sold them for a net loss of 13,000). This doesn't seem to be much of a scandal or controversy at all.

It also might help to be civil and assume good faith of other editors. Bashing one of the best articles on wikipedia and its editors isn't a good way to make a point. --Ubiq 01:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not one of the best articles on wikipedia, that's a joke. Whatever I know nothing short of <WP:BLP violation removed> will get him negative criticism from you holy editors.Manic Hispanic 04:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I gotta tell you I find that offensive on a few levels. Anyways, it looks like this story isn't going to have legs. Tucker Carlson gave it a pass and he's not known for being notoriously pro-Obama. Mykll42 04:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Tucker has been a pretty consistent Obama critic. And I'mDown, I'll advise you of WP:CIVIL and WP:BLP. Further incivility and disruption will be remedied. Thanks. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 05:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Civility should not be applied to politics. And you give me WP:BLP. Well all I have to say is this article violates NPOV because it is slanted towerds the postive, and anyone who attempts to interject any criticism, or issues that are controvorsial, is quickly silenced and there edits reverted. This page is full of Obama hawks with the intent to silence dissenters. Manic Hispanic 06:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well... aside from the fact that civility should be applied to politics, this isn't politics. It's encyclopedia writing. And if this remains a serious topic of interest after a few days, it will find its way into the encyclopedia article. But it won't remain a topic of interest because he violated no rules and remedied the situation, taking a financial loss in the process, when he learned of it. Any one who had read the NYT link I provided, as opposed to the Drudge link, would know that. Mykll42 06:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The race ("blackness") issue.

Here we have Salon's Debra Dickerson [6] and NY Daily News' Stanley Crouch [7] both raising the issue of Obama's "blackness." Can we accept that Obama's race is indeed a matter of controversy, with regard to blacks in America and calling himself "African-American"? Two reliable sources, both black columnists, mind you. I'm having trouble with arguments against notability being used on this article, at this point. Italiavivi 19:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think Obama's race certainly is a matter of controversy and indeed notable. Marget Carlson of Bloomberg covered the question as did Marjorie Valbrun of the Washington Post [8]. However, I think the issue of "not being black enough" is more directly related to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 because the onset of the campaign has led to the question being raised in the media. - PoliticalJunkie 19:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe this controversy first emerged when Obama was running against African-American Alan Keyes for Senate back in 2004, but I'd have to dig up sources from back then. Italiavivi 19:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither Crouch nor Dickerson question his ethnicity, they question his cultural identity and heritage as someone running for office. More succinctly, neither says he has no right to be called African American. That being said, I do think this merits independent mention. His description in the first few paragraphs should not be changed. Both columns are worth reading, even though Dickerson's is a little pro-Hillary for my taste. Mykll42 20:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Valbrun acknowledges Obama's "blackness has increasingly been discussed on black-oriented radio shows, at political conferences and on Sunday morning news shows". Even though she says he has a right to be called African American, the topic of Obama's race has still been broached and other people disagree with her. - PoliticalJunkie 20:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, Italiavivi, you're right. I found this quote:

The carpetbagging black Republican Alan Keyes opened up this racialist can of worms when he opposed Mr. Obama in the Illinois Senate race back in 2004. Badly outmatched and reaching for any brick he could find, Mr. Keyes blurted out that Mr. Obama was not black because he was not descended from slaves. The Daily News columnist Stanley Crouch later seemed to second that view, saying that Mr. Obama had not “lived the life of a black American.”

from here. - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't really matter in context of the discussion, but Dickerson's column references polling data which is out of date as Obama is seizing control of the African American vote. I understand that this is not the place for polling data, but if a work we cite uses polling data, should we respond with updated data? Or just directo the appropriate page. Mykll42 20:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be better to specify the poll parameters on the article. --– Emperor Walter Humala · 21:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A minority of any action volunteers automatically all the distinguishing features of that minority. Should the minority be human, then colour, speech, education, and roots, are going to prejudice each of us, according to our own unique background. Obama is black; being black will be mentioned. Obama is university educated; being university educated will be mentioned. Obama smokes; being a smoker will be mentioned. All the demarcations will come out that we can imagine, because he is part of an American minority. Similarly with those in a majority, but the restraint of exposing every nuance is in effect. Clinton is white; being white is not mentioned, while other demarcations are. What I mean by all of this is that African-American, black, et al, is going to get plenty of, inevitable, exposure in the press and public. Time to acknowledge that reality and not be slowed by any further opinion on it. --Free4It 00:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Breaking news: Obama didn't pay some parking tickets while in college!

So, are the fascist dictator Obama hawks guarding this page going to oppress this very noteworthy information [9] [10] [11], too? Italiavivi 23:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, those parking tickets weren't from college; he broke the law in law school! That's like frowning in clown college: it's a serious impingement of character.--Pharos 23:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally, a candidate who forgets to pay his parking tickets, just like me. A man of the people!

OBAMA GAINS MY VOTE.

On a serious note, please, grow up, and quit being so concerned about such petty matters. I'm sure plenty of anti-Obama editors have forgotten to pay at least one parking ticket in their lives. I'm sure I have at least five, since my old college was a pain with parking permits.

If this is the deepest dirt one can bring up about Obama, I think one needs to re-assess their own motivation. When the information arises that he killed a man and drank his blood, I'll consider it a noteworthy point. Jaywalking charges, not so much. --C.Logan 23:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Damn it, sarcasm is impossible here. Please be aware that all references to "clown college" in my comments in future are to be interpreted with a grain of salt :)--Pharos 01:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, my comment was more directed to the news agencies such as Fox who drum the story up, and to a lesser extent the user who posted this, although he may have been sarcastic too.--C.Logan 03:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

He was. Italiavivi 03:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The man had to also drink his victim's blood for your noteworthiness? Truth be that all of these aspects [smoking, ticket trespasses, law school flaunting,] have an undeniable influence in our personal assessment of the man; but, not any of it needs concrete exposure in an encyclopedia. --Free4It 00:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Smoking? Really? Does he eat red meat, too? I certainly hope not! Carnivores can't be leaders!

Things like smoking shouldn't really be on the radar. Really, think about that for a second. :Smoking is bad for you, but equally so are things like french fries, lack of activity, and auto emissions. However, I don't expect that the president should be a vegan cross-country runner who drives a SmartCar. To be fair, this is slightly bigger news than if Obama once hit the bumper of a parked car while backing out of a parking space.But this isn't the sort of thing that would have any effect on his campaign. The third article cited above even concludes on that note.This is, essentially, news sites scraping the bottom of the barrel for Obama dirt.--C.Logan 00:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, a picture is starting to be painted here. It turns out that Obama is a product of the American melting pot, invests money at a loss, smokes, and parks illegally. I think he may have been my college roommate. Mykll42 05:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm still trying to parse the meaning of "Obama hawks". I thought Obama followers were leftists. I thought hawks were right-wing. This is very confusing. I think I'll have a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. P.S. Be careful, though, senses of humor are a rare commodity on wikipedia. Tvoz | talk 06:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That's the ironic part. Despite my troll-like language, I'm trying to make a serious point. Discussing this information just paints a more complete picture of the man. It might even help people identify with him. But there's no way I'm doing the work to research and write about these issues, only to have the secrete police delete my work. Ogeez 06:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Troll like language and behavior you mean. Jiffypopmetaltop 06:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the funny thing about it is that it does make me identify with him, a bit. The more politicians try to paint themselves as saints, the more your B.S. alarm goes off. Obama seems at least more genuine- he's made some of the same mistakes that I have.--C.Logan 07:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

All right let's stop discussing trolling stuff here. Keep focused on improving the article. thanks --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 05:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on, there's no harm done. Sometimes one needs a break from said improving activity. Tvoz | talk 05:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

well, I have to admit I was angry while typing that, sorry and no problem. see ya'll around. --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 23:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

2008 not 2010 campaign fund

The article refers to Obama raising money for a 2010 campaign - surely this should be 2008? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.129.102.19 (talk) 05:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure what section you're talking about and am too tired to hunt, but if he is not nominated in some fashion, then he will in all likelihood re-run for his Senate post in 2010, which is likely what it is referring to. Until he set up his exploratory committee, any monies contributed would have gone towards that campaign and could not have applied to his Presidential campaign. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 05:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Website of that campaign. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 05:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Osama

The Democratic presidential debate in Nevada was cancelled because the chairman of Fox News made a joke about the words "Obama" and "Osama" sounding similar.[12] This is notable. Together with the CNN "Where's Obama?" headline,[13] this merits a section about people confusing the two names. Ogeez 08:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It merits its own section in the Fox News article. It doesn't merit its own section in this article. Discuss this on Talk:Fox News. Same thing with CNN's "mistake". --Ubiq 09:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't need to tell people that "Osama" and "Obama" sound similar, nor does a typo on CNN's part justify an entire section in Obama's article. Attack jokes on Roger Ailes' part belong at Fox News, nor does Ailes win himself a sentence on his target's article every time he makes a joke. Ailes didn't "confuse the two names" as you assert -- he swapped them deliberately. Italiavivi 14:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone added a section about the Fox News controversy to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Should it stay? - PoliticalJunkie 20:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The exhaustive controversies survey.

Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House. Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page. Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability. It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.

If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate. No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.

I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible. In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants. If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.

Please add *Notable or *Not notable following each item, based upon whether or not you feel each item is notable enough for inclusion in the article, then sign your vote with ~~~~.

---

2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008

"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." [14]

• Not notable. Changing one's mind is not inherently controversial; he is entitled to changing his mind without it be construed as a "controversy." Also, this detail is already prominently noted at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not even close to notable, and a mile from "controversial". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Any senator running for election or newly elected will deny their intention to run for future office. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Unfortunately, this is a standard politician lie. Ogeez 03:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Covered at the presidential campaign page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Shows his admitted lack of experience. Will definately be noted in the race! - Eisenmond 20:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable It is not uncommon for politicians to deny they will run for office days before they announce they'll run for office, I don't see why him saying he would not run in 2004 is applicable. Especially not in the main article, it might warrant a sentence in the campaign article in the History/Background. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notableas a controversy. However, it probably should be included in a campaign article or a campaign section. Briefly Jiffypopmetaltop 19:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Race and "blackness"

Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned. [15]

• Notable. Sen. Obama's racial identity is a notable, widely discussed, reliably sourced, controversial matter. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable, though it does lead to some remarkable circumlocutions, wherein it's not suitable in some circles to refer to a man whose father was African and whose mother is American as African-American. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Though I believe this is more of a campaign issue than a personal issue. If it was first brought up in his Senate race, I concede it belongs here. Making this debate balanced will be tricky, because someone saying a man of African descent is not African American is news, while someone saying he is African American is not. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable I just don't think it should matter personally. It would detract from the article a bit IMO unless it was discussed just masterfully. --Ubiq 02:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Given that he may become the first black US president. Ogeez 03:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Played roles in his campaigns. - PoliticalJunkie 20:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - for obvious historical reasons - Eisenmond 20:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It would have to be handled carefully as the people bringing this up generally aren't questioning if he's African-American, but if he has had the "African-American experience" and can relate to the trouble African-Americans face in this country. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable and given due weight (with sources from varied perspectives) in the article's Cultural and political image section. --HailFire 22:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this would be a good place for it. Would you care to give it a shot yourself, HailFire? Italiavivi 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the most notable info has already be added by previous edits citing commentators Younge (The Nation), Crouch (New York Daily News), and Page (Houston Chronicle) <click on author's names to see where each is cited and to read their articles>. The reader is presented with sharply contrasting viewpoints ("Black Like Me," "Not Black Like Me," and "...Silly Question") and can decide for him/herself what's controversy and what's just useful, notable information. There's certainly other sources we could add, but I'm not sure they would offer anything new beyond what's already eloquently addressed in these three articles. --HailFire 22:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I should have clicked before I typed—the links to both the Crouch and Page articles are now broken. If they can't be recovered (just tried), we should come up with alternative wording and sources. For starters, there's this and this. --HailFire 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC); Also this, possibly this, and certainly this. --HailFire 11:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable But for the fact that he is biracial, not that he isn't descended from slaves.Shakam 16:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Yeah, it's time for this to be written up. I suggest that Shakam takes the first crack at it. Jiffypopmetaltop 19:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Antoin Rezko real estate

In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." [16]

• Not notable. No laws broken, no wrong-doing alleged. A minor "appearance of impropriety" at best. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not even Caesar's wife. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable All of the pertinent information is write there in the description: "No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation." Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Like previously stated, no wrong-doing or laws broken. --Ubiq 02:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Obama's close personal and business ties to a man indicted for extortion is notable. The phrase "no laws are alleged to have been broken" is a typical sleezy politician non-denial. Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Nothing wrong's been done. - PoliticalJunkie 20:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - This article should provide an answer to controversial issues, so as to provide an accurate account of issues, especially those that have the "appearance of impropriety" - Eisenmond 21:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable An associate got taken down for events not related to Obama. If it were similar to Tom Delay's associates going down, then it'd be notable. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

George W. Haywood stock investing

Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors. Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust. Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.

• Not notable. Blind trust which Sen. Obama liquidated at a net loss. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• The whole damn point of blind trusts is you don't know what's in them. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See As of now, this is just election news. If talk of it persists or escalates, it will be notable. But not until then. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not something he was aware of and he had a net loss to avoid conflict of interest when he found out about it. --Ubiq 02:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See I agree we should see how this plays out. Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable It seems to have died out already. - PoliticalJunkie 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - if it comes back up. Remember, financial responsibility is a major point in the elections - Wait and see - Eisenmond 21:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See Too early to tell what affect this might have as far as the "notable" meter goes. During campaigns anything remotely interesting is front page news and this falls under that header right now. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Wal-Mart and Wake Up Wal-Mart support

Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart. He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. [17]

• Not notable. This is a political position, and belongs at Political views of Barack Obama. Editors cannot claim every single contentious political position, such as labor/union views in this case, as a "controversy." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Italiavivi nailed it. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Agreed. Should be in his political views page. Not his biography. --Ubiq 02:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Belongs at political views page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Who cares? :) --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable and already in main article's Political advocacy section. A political position, not a controversy. --HailFire 22:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Voting "present" as Illinois state senator

As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning. Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." [18]

• Not notable. Senators are entitled to voting "present," especially when faced with bills that contain poison pills. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Might be notable; who says it is other than that blog? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable I'm still unclear as to how a state senator exercising his right to vote 'present' is notable or a controversy. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not a controversy or anything out of the ordinary. --Ubiq 02:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not even a reliable source. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable as note (re anti-abortion opposition to Obama's speaking at Saddleback Church#Global summit) and already noted. --HailFire 22:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hussein

Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein. Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election [19], and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions. [20] Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable, despite this being fallacious race-baiting smear at its absolute worst. Right or wrong, his middle name is controversial to Americans, and Republican Party operatives are openly waving his middle name about as a tactic. Decidedly notable, for better or worse. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable, or at least not a controversy. (How can someone's given name be controversial? What it is is a place where idiots can attack; that's not controversy, though. Minor point of vulnerability.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable We very clearly include his middle name right up there on the top. It's the second word of the article. Any attempt to use his middle name as a campaign issue belongs on the person doing the campaigning first, on his campaign page second. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable for the well-articulated reasons above. 128.103.14.115 01:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Hmm, I could see a Silly Anti-Barack Obama tactics being made for things like people using his name against him, heh. But I don't think it belongs in his biography, along with the Fox News madrassah controversy. --Ubiq 02:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable His name is not "controversial," but it is certainly interesting. People want to know what his name indicates about his background and heritage. This is a perfect example where the people trying to protect Obama may be hurting him by suppressing discussion of this issue. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable The first sentence in the article covers it. - PoliticalJunkie 20:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - again, this is an issue that Americans will want to look into, and the information about the "controversy" of his middle name should be listed so as to provide a more thorough account. If he loses because of name recognition you can guarantee it will be listed, so why not take note of it now - think outside the box. - Eisenmond 21:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Especially not in regards to Barack Obama, put it under Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Kinda Sorta Obama does make mention of it in The Audacity of Hope, but that was regarding to his Senate career. Shakam

Obama/Osama

CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. [21] Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida." [22] Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations. Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. [23]

• Not notable. Typographical/technical errors might be warranted on the news outlets' articles, but decidedly not here. Roger Ailes' remark belongs at Fox News alongside a section on the Nevada Democratic Party canceling a Fox-hosted debate due to the "joke." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Maybe notable in an article about CNN's copy editors or whoever writes the headlines. Roger Ailes' very funny hah hah jokes might have a place as an example of Republican cheap shots, but that's about it. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable See above Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable While I disagree that they were "mistakes", it would seemingly need to belong only in the respective articles for CNN and Yahoo either way. --Ubiq 02:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Better to address this than stick our heads in the sand and pretend it's not an issue. This mix-up has happened over and over. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable But does it merit mention at the presidential campaign page? (Someone recently added it there) - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Ted Kennedy even made this mistake on the campaign trail, or senate floor, or something... I remember... It keeps happening, and it will stick in people's mind. The issue is very notable - Eisenmond 21:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Same as Hussein being his middle name.. Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Effort to quit smoking

Sen. Obama is a smoker [24], and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking [25]. His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum. Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking. [26] Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast. [27] A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. [28]

• Notable. Michelle Obama's reluctance for her husband to run for president was widely covered prior to his announcement, and that his agreement to quit smoking played a part in assuaging her concerns is decidedly notable. He has been public and open about his effort to quit smoking, despite attempts by political opponents to use it as an attack. Multiple reliable sources, including primary source interviews with himself and his wife specifically on the subject. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable While I agree that smoking in general, even in a politician, is not notable, his campaign staff have made it notable with the "Quit Smoking" group. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable to an extent I agree that the Quit Smoking bit is notable, but I think referring to him as a "smoker" is false, especially if he's quit. So we'd have to be careful. --Ubiq 02:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• What's quite fascinating is that there seems to be more concern for his status as a wannabe ex-smoker thn there is for his African ancestry. The times they are a-changing. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable For reasons described above. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It's playing a role in his campaign, one article I read talked about him chewing Nicorette gum. His effort to stop smoking has become extremely open and public. - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - With all the current smoking backlash, including states banning smoking in places of business across the country, his smoking habit is a big deal... Remember the Dole campaign in 1996? The cigarette costume guy was everywhere... still a big deal! - Eisenmond 21:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - But only as a sentence in the 2008 Presidential election section and only in regards to him promising to quit smoking in exchange for his wife letting him run. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism from Australian Prime Minister John Howard

Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War. [29] Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats." Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq. Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.

• Notable, including in the main article. This is a highly unusual partisan attack from a foreign head of government. The notability of this is undeniable. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable But briefly. It was big news when it happened but it remained big news for all of a week. We should make sure not to give undue weight. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Agreed that it's pretty notable criticism. But like Mykill42 said, let's keep it brief. --Ubiq 02:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable, as above. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Especially given the importance of the Iraq issue. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Also covered at the presidential campaign page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Eisenmond 21:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable But already mentioned in the campaign article, so doesn't need to be included in this article. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

False "madrassa" report/smear/attack

See Insight Magazine#Madrassa. A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past. [30] The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time. [31] The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta [32], claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever. Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. [33]

• Notable, but must be written in full compliance with WP:BLP and WP:Undue weight. Must note that the report was fully debunked, wholly false, and originated from a right-wing outlet. Only warrants a summary, with full details belonging at Insight, Fox News, or a scandal-specific article. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable I think reporting this on Obama's page opens up a very frightening situation. Any story could be fabricated, distributed, broadcast, and then merit a mention in an article. The incident is news and, I believe, already has its own article. I recommend linking to it in the Further Reading section and leaving it at that. The same story could have been written about absolutely anyone, it has nothing to do with Obama. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not in this article anyway. A link to the article about it might be acceptable though. --Ubiq 02:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Better to clear the air. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Non notable A link to the madrassa article is all that's necessary. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - yes. People have questions about the issue, so it should be noted, with the quote about it as written in his book. - Eisenmond 21:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It has its own article. However, having said that, it shouldn't be included in this article as its more in relation to poor reporting by Insight than anything Obama did. Maybe a link in the See also section. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable as note and already noted. --HailFire 22:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Mother's ancestors owned slaves

Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side [34], each owned two slaves.

• Not notable. That's four "greats" and five "greats," for those too lazy to count. Italiavivi 20:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not the slightest bit notable or relevant to him and would likely only be included as an effort to smear him. --Ubiq 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• As, somehow a criticism? No. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ok, I admit this is not significant. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not notable. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Seeing as how a great number of our historical leaders are now (noted) as being slave-owners, should it not be fair to mention that his bloodline is tainted as well? (sarcasm intended) - Eisenmond 21:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Even if true, his mom seems to have made up for any past transgressions of a distant relative by marrying an African-American and producing a child. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Parking tickets at Harvard

During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. [35]

• Not notable. Pardon my brevity, but give me a break. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable But fun on the talk page! Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable I don't see this as much of an issue. Who cares?--C.Logan 20:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Considering HLS's hefty tuition costs (today at $110,000 for three years), I think Senator Obama's action was rather admirable. 128.103.14.115 01:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Funny stuff, but not notable. --Ubiq 02:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Silly. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Trivial matter. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - If $375 was not the total cost, but rather a plea deal??? I smell conspiracy theory... any takers :) - ok... Not Notable - Eisenmond 21:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Yet again.. Anything remotely interesting regarding a candidate is front page news. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• unnotable take this to fox news. --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable in the context of things that he's doing to clear his name. (It's only not notable if the incident is isolated. However, Obama has also done other things to clear his name, such as by investing in mutual funds and money market accounts, not individual stocks, after he was accused of buying stocks then proposing funding that would benefit those stocks).71.212.111.238 23:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Non-U.S. views

The article could be improved by adding links to non-American articles and media coverage.172.146.15.93 06:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any of those readily available? Mykll42 06:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Obama is not muslim

This was debunked rather well at snopes.com, at the link below. The opening paragraph of the Wiki page on Obama states that he is the only practicing muslim in the Senate. No where else in the article is it mentioned.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Yeah.. It's called vandalism. --Bobblehead 02:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Punahou School

I thought maybe we could entice the IP user who wants to discuss how good Obama's high school is to tell us why it's relevant over here, rather than edit warring. Mykll42 19:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

People like to smear Obama. He didn't go to some inner city high school while smoking dope. He when to one of the best schools in America. That's nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, if you delete that, you should delete all references to Harvard. However, unlike Harvard, non-Hawaiians may not know the significance so there's a tiny phrase alerting the reader of the significance of Punahou.

- : So let people smear. We have plenty of information on the Punahou School with which to refute. We can't be WP:NPOV just towards Senator Obama, we have to be towards the school he attended as well. Mykll42 19:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC) (edit conflict: bbatsell did a much better job than I did explaining)

I understand your position (and I firmly understand the number of smears Obama receives for many reasons). However, calling it prestigious or any number of synonyms is largely your opinion, which constitutes original research on Wikipedia. Firstly, describing the school as anything needs to be attributed to a reliable source, per WP:ATT. Secondly, I'm pretty sure the article does not describe Harvard in any manner other than that he went there for law school. It has a link to Harvard's article, where one can read up on the prestige (or lack of prestige, depending on your viewpoint) of the school itself. Similarly here, Punahou School is linked to its article, which is where any descriptions of the school itself should go. This article is about Mr. Obama, not the prestige of the schools on his C.V. If a reader wants to find out about Punahou, then they click the link to read the article about it; they shouldn't be reading about it in the article of a politician who attended the school over 30 years ago. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)