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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 193.198.162.14 (talk) at 08:23, 19 April 2022 (→Split the article?: Siege of Azovstal). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Change paragraph under March section

Under "March" section there's a paragraph stating: "The Donetsk Regional Drama Theatre sheltering hundreds of civilians was hit by a Russian airstike on 16 March and destroyed.[99]" The linked article at source 99 states the following: "Ukraine has accused Russian forces of bombing a theatre where civilians were sheltering in the besieged southern city of Mariupol." This is a major conflict in presenting the information as truthful while relying on "has accused" statements as proof or evidence. Please correct that statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.26.214.116 (talk • contribs) 16:36, March 20, 2022 (UTC) Provide data that the Ukrainian military used civilians as a human shield and did not allow them to leave - there are already 50 thousand refugee statements about the crimes of the Ukrainian military. As well as data that the Mariupol maternity hospital was a fake organized by the APU - which was later confirmed by a participant of this fake.188.233.120.45 (talk) 08:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit-C-P request on 30 March

Can anyone add the following (plus this reference) to the "Hospital Bombing" section and the city "Theatre-bombing" sections of the article?

Please also include the reference.

The source is the Independent (UK) which is a very respected British paper.

On March 25th, Russian General Mikhail Mizintsev was accused by Ukrainian authorities of ordering the bombings of both the Mariupol Children’s and Maternity Hospital and the city Theatre where 1,200 civilians were sheltering.[1]

And that there is no information that the Mariupol maternity hospital, according to the testimony of witnesses with women in labor, was forcibly evicted by the armed forces of Ukraine, which was publicly confirmed by a fake participant. As well as information that the building of the drama theater was blown up by the Ukrainian military themselves, which is confirmed by many witnesses of the incident? Why is there no information about mass shootings by the Armed Forces of Mariupol residents who tried to get out of the city at the beginning of the operation????188.233.120.45 (talk) 08:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is, if in Europe And Wikipedia takes into account the fact of total censorship in the Western media?188.233.120.45 (talk) 08:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done (added to § Humanitarian situation and war crimes) instead of duplicating the same sentence in each section. Wikipedia reports what reliable sources do. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 19:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Batchelor, Tom (25 March 2022). "'Butcher of Mariupol' accused of ordering maternity hospital bombing six years after destroying Aleppo" (News website). Independent. Retrieved 30 March 2022.

Over 10,000+ deaths

[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.126.133.15 (talk)

Found another source to support: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/04/11/ukraine-russia-invasion-live-updates/9535346002/ HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 22:41, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first (National Review) article is simply restating an Associated Press article it links to: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-state-of-the-union-address-zelenskyy-biden-kyiv-7cc069b80178629a60f4f2d166348d45
The Associated Press and USA Today articles appear to be separate corroborating sources, though they're both based on quotes from the same person: Mayor Vadym Boychenko. WWolfsbane (talk) 03:57, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The 10,000 figure appears to be rounded and, given its source (the mayor of the city), it appears to me that it is very likely inflated to an extent. I by no means underestimate the tragedy at Mariupol, but we need a more neutral source for this. It looks like they are updating in ever increasing steps - 2000, 5000, 10000 etc. Maybe I'm conspiratorial, just my 2 cents. mezil (talk) 13:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are not, these is clear propaganda created out of thin air inside mind of the mayor...
The whole bombing campaing in 1999 in Serbia killed 1000 people. No chance there already died 10 000 ppl in Mariupol.
What the hell they would have to do with the people to kill as many... 188.214.108.12 (talk) 11:10, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a very useful comparison, but in any case, how would he know any reliable figures by now? Smeagol 17 (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, who does the English-language wikipedia like the motherland of democracy not give the opinion of real Mariupol residents what is really going on? This is Putin's blow to the foundations of democracy in Europe and the United States, or such a "democracy" of the United States and Europe.

Against the background of mass censorship in Europe and the USA. And why don't the Asian media bring that here???188.233.120.45 (talk) 10:24, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian captured per Russian claims

Regarding the number of POWs, combining the various Russian claims the number would be around 1,600, including at least 400 wounded. 267 on 5 April (https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/russia-ukraine-war-russian-leader-claims-267-ukraine-marines-surrendered-in-mariupol-articleshow.html), 160 on 12 April (https://24happenings.com/top-world/174750.html), 1,200 including 400 wounded yesterday (according to Pravda article that is already cited). --195.225.41.202 (talk) 07:44, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Pravda report says 1,100 not 1,200 but it will be taken into account.Mr.User200 (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done, 267 from 2 April, 160 from 11 April and 1,160 from 14 April.Mr.User200 (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is it still a siege or is it just a battle?

There is currently heavy fighting in the inner city of Mariupol. Wouldn’t it no longer be a siege now? 71.225.3.176 (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. We have more than a few examples of siege vs battle (Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sarajevo).
Leaving it like this is inconsistent (I assume it is not a good idea to change Stalingrad articles). Maybe this article should be split in two articles, or two distinct parts, like in many other articles. Nemanja 10:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inemanja (talk • contribs)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 April 2022

write Russian victory, the situation on the field alreadt show a decisive Russian victory, with almost all Mariupol in Russia's hands, and mass surrender of Ukrainian armed forces in the city 111.94.33.193 (talk) 11:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

no.
It is not a Russian victory until all of Mariupol surrenders, and the Azovstal plant and some of the port continue to hold out. 71.225.3.176 (talk) 15:51, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It still too early.
No matter if outcome is imminent or not, battle is still ongoing. Nemanja 10:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inemanja (talk • contribs)
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 19:03, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Map

An island near Prymorske is colored yellow. Is it deliberate, or did someone miss it when updating the map? Smeagol 17 (talk) 10:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 April 2022

Siege of Mariupol → Battle of Mariupol (2022) – Now a full battle, not a siege. --Panam2014 (talk) 18:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mariupol is not "completely destroyed"

The infobox states that one of the results of the battle (or siege) is that Mariupol is "completely destroyed." However, the references for that statement do not state that Mariupol is completely destroyed. 2607:FEA8:3EDB:AD00:441:A59:1911:665 (talk) 19:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've added this source. Curbon7 (talk) 21:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This obviously isn’t a literal statement. If literally everything in the city were destroyed, how would the Ukrainians be hiding out in the Azovstal plant? There is a difference between the city being largely bombed out and "completely destroyed". I'm going to remove the claim. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Happy. Its a loaded term as they say. EkoGraf (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Split the article?

Is it the plan to keep both the military on military actions (Siege section) with the humanitarian suffering in Mariupol (Humanitarian situation and war crimes section) in the article forever? I suspect the article might become quite long in the aftermath of the siege, when we receive a lot more information; can the article handle that, well? If not, should we prepare ourselves now and split it? Also, is it normal for readers to come to the article with the intention of learning about both subjects (military actions/humanitarian suffering)? Is it the best course to split the article into two (only leaving a small portion of the latter: E.g., in a casualties-section) or not? How are similar Siege-related articles doing it? I'm really just being curious. Imonoz (talk) 22:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the city falls to Russia there will be a coverup and there might not be as much new information.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 23:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There will always be new information, at least with time. I suspect that you think it's an unnecessary action to split the article; that was all I wanted to know - I was just curious. Imonoz (talk) 23:23, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Azovstal

Together with the current split proposal, it might be a good idea to also split fighting for the Azovstal steel plant into a separate article, perhaps titled Siege of Azovstal, or maybe something else (because Azovstal may refer to something else) like Siege of Azovstal iron and steel works (but this sounds too complicated. It would have something like "Part of Siege of Mariupol" in the infobox.

As a reader, I would like to be able to read separately about the whole battle and the important "sub-battle", and, among other things, see key the information of each at a glance in respective infoboxes. Besides, that split would somewhat reduce the size of the main article, making it easier to navigate. 193.198.162.14 (talk) 08:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Map Change

Russian Ministry of Defense and on-the-ground sources have confirmed the remainder of the Prymorskyi district is now under the control of the D.P.R. 173.71.144.242 (talk) 22:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We wait till it's covered by reliable sources. Volunteer Marek 23:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

4,000 killed?

I see the Infobox now states that the Russian claim is that over 4,000 Ukrainian troops were killed and 1,464 captured. However the cited source (https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-says-all-urban-areas-of-mariupol-cleared-of-ukrainian-forces/6532471.html) says "In an online post, the ministry said that as of April 16, Ukrainian forces in the besieged port city had lost more than 4,000 people, RIA, the state-owned news agency added. (...) There was no immediate reaction from Kyiv to the statement by the Russian ministry, which also said 1,464 Ukrainian servicemen had surrendered so far." I think that this means that the Russians claim to have inflicted over 4,000 casualties (not exclusively killed), which would include the 1,464 captured. --Potionkin (talk) 19:49, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tens of thousands according to mayor of the city (no one knows for sure how many). I just watched his interview (heart-wrenching, in Russian) [1], but there are other sources. 13 mobile crematoria of occupiers [2] are working day and night to dispose the bodies. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the 4,000 killed figure comes out after substracting the 1,500 POWs plus the 2,500 "still alive" Ukrainian forces from the alleged 8,000 Ukrainian soldiers.Mr.User200 (talk) 03:12, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/over-10000-civilians-killed-during-russian-occupation-of-mariupol-mayor-claims/
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