Talk:Cultural appropriation

White people who think they're native american

So what exactly is the term for this? There HAS to be one, and an article for it. --24.21.105.29 (talk) 01:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

"Mistaken?" Carptrash (talk) 20:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I am native American. I was born here. What's the big deal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avocats (talk • contribs) 04:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

How witty. So what do you call the original inhabitants of the Americas? Indians? Logos spermatikos (talk) 08:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

"Original" in what sense? That they immigrated here before someone else?

No humans evolved in North America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk • contribs)

What?

@Dyrnych: Really?[1] What we have now is awkwardly-worded. Those who think "appropriation" means the same thing as "equal exchange" will always have issues with an accurate description of this issue. I pared down the redundant verbiage, left in the qualifiers and the mention that it's a controversial concept (to some). I spent significant time improving this and you just revert wholesale to one of the awkward versions that's been here since the weird, wholesale dumps of unsourced essay sections into this? I don't get it. - CorbieV^☊☼ 23:46, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Please stop trying to suggest that editors who want the article to reflect a neutral presentation of the concept are describing it inaccurately solely because they're not using terms of advocacy. As I recall, you refused to discuss the issue of the article's neutrality the last time it came up, instead dodging the issue by insisting that people were trying to suppress the concept itself. I agree that the article is awkward, but I'd rather have an awkward and neutral Wikipedia article than a stylistically brilliant advocacy piece masquerading as a Wikipedia article. Dyrnych (talk) 00:05, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I haven't dodged this issue. I just get sick of having the same discussion over and over. - CorbieV^☊☼ 00:12, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

If you're tired of discussing the article's neutrality over and over, you should consider the case that the article is not neutral. Dyrnych (talk) 00:17, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Really, I don't mean this personally as I don't know you, but... my experience on this article is that the content is generally objected to by those who simply don't think the concept should exist. Or that if it exists it shouldn't be discussed. Appropriation/misappropriation is different from equal exchange, due to the power issues. That's the essence of the concept. But most who claim the article isn't neutral edit it to try and make the terms synonymous. The concepts can be discussed without watering it down. - CorbieV^☊☼ 00:24, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I certainly have a problem with defining the term in reference to oppression (when that concept is used as an undefined term of art). I also have a problem with using dubious opinion sources for claims of fact. I've stated those objections above and been met with the same sort of "most people" critique that you're now asserting and which does nothing to either acknowledge my (different) concerns or ameliorate them. Dyrnych (talk) 00:44, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan:@Dyrnych: the problem is that "cultural appropriation" has many different conceptualizations. Corbie's point-of-view seems to come more from the advocacy side (tumblr, SRS, advocacy blogs, etc). Which is fine. It's just that academics talk about cultural appropriation with much less agreement about how it works. For example, Corbie's insistence on a division between "equal exchange" and "cultural appropriation" is not necessarily supported in the literature. In fact, academics believe that "equal exchange" is a myth. It's generally assumed to be a nonexistent ideal. Yet it's very much dogma to advocates. How do we represent these viewpoints in the article? This is a difficult, complex article to write. —Fluous (talk) 21:37, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I've been thinking a lot about the terminology problems here. The phrase "Cultural appropriation", as it is being used more and more frequently in popular culture, and in this article, is actually a misnomer. The correct term for appropriation of an oppressed culture's intellectual property by the dominant culture should be "cultural misappropriation". BUT, we have sources full of this misuse.
So of course many academics, and others who define the component words more strictly, will define the phrase as meaning equal exchange. And simultaneously, cultural misappropriation is being described in popular culture by this redefined phrase ("cultural appropriation"). This shift in meaning in some quarters but not others is resulting in conflicting statements in sources; it is the same type of frustrating and confusing language drift that has resulted in "literally" now being used by many people to mean, "metaphorically."
Those who are only going by dicdefs of these words will always balk at the definition that sees the oppressive dynamic as inherent in the meaning, while those familiar with the current use of the phrase as a neologism always assume the oppressive dynamic is inherent. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but I'm looking for any usable sources that we could use to clarify this. Here's a bit from the Guardian that makes the distinction, "Native Americans know that cultural misappropriation is a land of darkness". But we need to find a way to fix this without just making it more confusing to people. - CorbieV^☊☼ 21:12, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Cultural Appropriation

Overall, this was a good article that was short and sweet and to the point! I would definitely add some more examples of cultural appropriation in mainstream culture and who it is affecting. I would also reference things like Katy Perry's new music video and how she culturally appropriates to an extreme. These things are relevant and need to be heard of. You should take a look at the Wikipedia Article relating to just racism. This is because cultural appropriation is a form of racism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:150A:C08A:6CEC:72A7:9854:71BC (talk) 06:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

culture appropriation critic

I think this is a very good article in terms of a very thorough definition and explanation to what cultural appropriation is. I also think that the amount of examples provided allows for great evidence and a way of understanding what it looks like in the physical world. if I had one critique I would it was a bit complicated at first in terms of a lot of ideas and statements being thrown at you with no small back story or explanation to what it is. I also would say that maybe providing another similar example like cultural appropriation that but is not such as simple positive cultural exchange will allow for individuals to differentiate the two. maybe this article for U.S news can help, http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/07/08/china-and-the-us-benefit-from-cultural-exchanges — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.174.158.186 (talk) 08:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

It's important that this article have a neutral point of view. This article reads as if everyone believed that cultural appropriation is a problem, when many people don't believe that. This talk page is not intended to be a debate on that issue, but the article itself should reflect this difference in beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 (talk • contribs) 1 December 2015

Seconded. I'm pretty sure there are arguments that "cultural appropriateion is a problem" can itself be a problem. If those views exist, they need to be reflected here. —Steve Summit (talk) 04:22, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The very term "cultural appropriation" is pejorative. The word "appropriation" itself implies that something has been taken without its owner's permission. The only possible way this article can approach a neutral tone is to carefully explain who is using the term and why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk • contribs)

Colonial??

The article says '"misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner' and even links to colonialism. But the to examples given, American Indians and African Americans, are not a classically colonial situations.

Could a better word be chosen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 (talk • contribs) 1 December 2015

Controversial in the lead

Starting discussion for adding "controversial" to lead sentence. This seems UNDUE to me and POV editing. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

@Kitplane01:... come discuss this. The Post Everything section on WaPo is more a blog iirc categorized as "opinion" and not RS. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I added links to the New York Times and Washington Post. How much more mainstream should I be?

I agree that the sections I offered were best characterized by 'opinion', but that's my point. It is a common opinion that cultural appropriation is not a problem, and that opinion is expressed in many ways including mainstream media. The article cannot ignore this opinion and claim to be NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 (talk • contribs) 04:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

This article is more about the sociological concept. Within sociology, it's not very controversial. Within mainstream media, there's been some discussion of it but even there it's not really that controversial... at least no more than other sociological theories about power disparity. The opinions are notable and agree with including them in the criticisms section, but I don't think there's enough to warrant "controversial" within the lead sentence, especially since the controversy is outside sociology and by non-experts. If reliable sources (which is the other issue with the sources) were to call it controversial within sociology, I'd be all for it. The Bell Curve is controversial for example. But this is not. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Per EvergreenFir, it's undue weight to put "controversial" in the lede. We already have a "criticisms" section. Kitplane01, how is it that you've been editing here for so long but don't know that a blog by a non-notable person, as you tried to use to source your additions, and edit-warred to keep adding, is not WP:RS? As EvergreenFir already said, the concept of (mis)appropriation is not controversial in academia. The pop culture article you tried to use had the word "controversy" in it (yay google.), but it was about celebrities getting dramatastic reactions ("causing controvery", "did a controversial thing") to their displays of misappropriation for self-promotion (Non-Native celebrities offending people by wearing fake war bonnets in promo shoots and such). That is a totally different usage of "controversial" and does not support your additions. [Clarifying: The celebrity's behaviour is described as controversial, not the concept.] Of the other sources you offered, one appears to be in the criticism section already, which makes me think you didn't read the full article before wanting to change the lede. The others are opinion pieces that again discuss "controversies" in pop culture. The fact that at least one of these appears to be by a member of the dominant culture saying they don't care and they think people should "appropriate away" kind of proves the point about the power imbalance issue. - CorbieV^☊☼ 16:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Also adding here for the record, since KitPlane01 removed the notices from their talk page:[2] that per WP:AN3R: Kitplane01: "Please don't touch the disputed material again unless consensus has been found."[3] And, "User:Kitplane01 may be blocked the next time they edit the material in dispute unless they have first obtained consensus on the talk page."[4] - CorbieV^☊☼ 17:22, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Cultural Misappropriation

While I agree it would be best to have more sources for this phrasing if we're going to go with the version of the lede we had here[5] for a while before Dyrnych's recent changes,[6] I still think "misappropriation" is a very important addition here. I reiterate: I think if the overwhelming majority of sources had used proper English, it would have been called "misappropriation" all along. When you read the actual content they are calling "appropriation", misappropriation is what is being discussed. And yes, I know we can't work from that basis without proper sourcing. I do know that. I also know that many who would have written "misappropriation" have tended to instead go with the more common phrasing simply because it's become the common vernacular, like the misuse of "literally". I still think this version is better:[7] - CorbieV^☊☼ 18:24, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

A major problem I have with the previous lead is that in treating "cultural appropriation" as synonymous with "cultural misappropriation," the article begs the question and confuses readers. There are conflicting arguments as to whether cultural appropriation is wrongful in various contexts, and it is inappropriate for the article to implicitly support one argument over the other. I understand your point and I certainly think that we should take into account the author's perspective when deciding whether the author 'really' meant "cultural misappropriation" when they said "cultural appropriation." But when you consider that making the terms synonymous implies that people on the other side of a given controversy are defending "misappropriation" (i.e., wrongful conduct), I hope you can see how your framing is problematic from an NPOV perspective. Dyrnych (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

non western cultural appropriation

This article seems to focus on the western opinions of western actions. Would it be appropriate to include a section on non-western cultural appropriation? (I'm thinking examples from Jpop and Kpop) or are they not really relevant (and hard to cite) because most western media just complains they are just racist, with mentioning appropriation? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Celebrity controversies

The celebrity section is a poorly-written, biased mess. Does the paragraph about April Lavigne, in particular, really meet Wikipedia standards? It includes such gems as "The song is a bizarre hybrid of pop and dubstep, with no musical reference to Japanese culture. Just the use of 'Hello Kitty' sparks Kawaii appropriation." Evidently whoever wrote that felt the need to delve into music criticism in addition to lecturing on the horrors of appropriation. A bizarre hybrid? And then there is this: "The song and music video violates Japanese culture..." Nah, that's not unvarnished opinionizing masquerading as objective fact. Not at all. But the best part is this: "A lot of the feedback Lavigne recieved[sic] on Twitter were[sic] favourable, and those who blamed her for racism are non-Japanese. Its[sic] just that society from Japan did not take it seriously." Leaving aside from the obvious spelling and grammar issues, I'm glad I was told, in a way wholly inappropriate for an encyclopedia, how it was received in Japan.72.49.235.222 (talk) 04:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree. I haven't had time to work on it, but it definitely needs a massive rewrite. Dyrnych (talk) 00:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Is there any culture that has not borrowed from others?

I think every single culture on the planet has borrowed items/practices that had been seen as distinctive of the other groups. It is hard to understand why some things are allowed (by certain self-appointed voices) to be borrowed, but others are not. And who is the arbiter? Even now, we find some Native Americans happy with the Washington Redskins, others vehemently object.

What will this do to all the efforts (often in the education sector) to give students opportunities to experience and taste (often literally) what other cultures do? It seems we have two opposing trends: one pushing towards multiculturalism and the contrary force pushing to prevent people doing anything that does not pertain to (what is deemed by some to be) their "own" culture. At the extreme, choirs will have to disband into smaller, ethnically homogeneous ensembles to sing their own authentic music and literature classes will have to do likewise. Pete unseth (talk) 22:37, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

This is probably a rhetorical question, but I would guess the cultures and languages of the uncontacted peoples do not feature the phenomenon. Some of these tribes/people are thought to be isolated for centuries or entire millennia, resulting in them not being affected or aware by worldwide changes. For example, the Pintupi of Australia remained largely isolated until the 1960s-1980s, with the last of them leaving the traditional nomadic lifestyle in 1984. Compare this to the rapid cultural and technological changes the rest of the island country has underwent since European colonization started in 1788.

Otherwise I agree with you that this is not a recent phenomenon, not unique to any particular historical period, and not particularly negative either. Cultures do change when they come in contact with other cultures, and people and societies adopt appealing elements and ideas from other cultures.

For some pre-20th century examples that come in mind:

• The Orientalizing period of Ancient Greece. Due to extensive contact with the Near East, Greek culture started adopting elements from the culture, artwork, religion, and mythology of Assyria, Ancient Egypt, and Phoenicia. The most lasting change of this "appropriation" was the creation of the Greek alphabet. It was an adaptation of the Phoenician alphabet for a new language. Writing helped transform Greek culture.
• The Hellenistic period of the ancient world. Spread of Greek culture (sports, theatre, education, art, etc) and language to Northern Africa, Western Asia, and South Asia. Local populations undergo partial Hellenization and the Greeks themselves adopt foreign cultural elements in politics, religion, art, and philosophy. Very much a period of cultural fusion and syncretism. Due to the spread of Hellenistic culture in wide areas from Gaul (in the west) to the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom and the Indo-Greek Kingdom (in the east), we have the rise of elements like Greco-Buddhist art, the worship of Isis throughout the Greco-Roman world, and new religious cults devoted to deities such as Serapis.
• The adoption of foreign elements in the Culture of ancient Rome. Roman literature was based on Greek literature and adopted many of its forms and genres, such as poetry, comedy, history, and tragedy. Roman art was at first based on Etruscan and Greek models, and later adopted elements from various different cultures. Music was similarly based on Etruscan, Greek, Anatolian, Northern African, and Celtic models. Architecture used foreign models as well, though evolving in innovative forms. Religion changed in order to include the deities and religious ideas of foreign or partially assimilated cultures. The Greco-Roman mysteries were all at first imported religions, not native to Rome or the Italian peninsula. They rose to become major elements of the culture. Dimadick (talk) 14:03, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Issues around Warbonnet photo

The caption on the top photo assumes that the man wearing the war bonnet is not Native American (though these days that only requires 1/16th of ones ancestry). I am perfectly happy allowing the photo to remain. Some will insist that the caption be altered. I am only pointing this out to show how I believe that some people in identity politics have become overly sensitive about minor points. Pete unseth (talk) 13:20, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Due to the nature of the display and the man's appearance it is safe to assume he is not a traditional Native American. The photo was taken at a St. Patrick's Day parade in Ireland. The man appears to be drinking alcohol in the photos in this series, is around others who are drinking alcohol, professes in various photos that he is Irish, and the "warbonnet" is clearly fake. Not all Native cultures have warbonnets, and not all Natives, even when full members of those cultures, have the right to wear them. It's like a military medal - it has to be earned, eagle feather by eagle feather, in a traditional Native community, and they are only worn by certain community leaders. No traditional Native would wear a sacred headdress while around alcohol. Blood Quantum and/or lineal descent rules for enrollment vary among Nations. Your 1/16th comment is arbitrary. Many have 1/4 as the legal limit for citizenship, others go by lineal descent: If your parents and grandparents were part of the in-person, indigenous community, and enrolled themselves. Enrollment criteria are up to the sovereign nations and all have variations. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with everything that you have said except that anything is " safe to assume." Carptrash (talk) 02:03, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Back to the matter of details: I am not at all sure why User:CorbieVreccan wrote that it was "safe to assume" that the person in the photo is not a Native American since the photo was taken "at a St. Patrick's Day Parade in Ireland". I assume this was said as joke since the information on the photo's page clearly identifies it as being at Mardi Gras in New Orleans. What about the African Americans who dress up for Mardi Gras in costumes that are supposedly Native American? All of this makes us wonder about the details of many claims of "cultural appropriation". The Korean woman next to me at lunch today was delighted to be eating Mexican food. Was this cultural appropriation?

Now seriously: I think the article needs to be much clearer that the concept of "cultural appropriation" decried by some in the field of identity politics is a specific narrow concept, not just people "borrowing from others". The current version makes it sound whiny and trivial. Pete unseth (talk) 19:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Zooming in on the photo, I realize I mistook it for a very similar photo taken in Ireland. It is true we know nothing about the ethnicity of the man in the photo. However, and this is the point, we can tell a great deal about him culturally from the display. The right to wear a warbonnet is a cultural thing, and while that right is only given to Natives, the way it has to be earned, and the protocol surrounding it, makes it clear that is not a traditional Native person, and the headdress also looks like a cheap knockoff, probably mass-produced by costume manufacturers in China. If you are still unclear on the protocols, please read the sources rather than asking editors to repeat ourselves here. The sourcing covers it. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:31, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan: You know better than that. Every claim you've just made is your original research. Dyrnych (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

What I know, based on your inappropriate comment, is that you haven't read the most basic sources on this. You might want to rethink this approach. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:29, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing even remotely inappropriate about my comment, and unless you can cite a policy that I'm violating I suggest you retract that. I'd like you to provide any reason at all why "the headdress also looks like a cheap knockoff, probably mass-produced by costume manufacturers in China" and "we can tell a great deal about him culturally from the display" are anything other than examples of a Wikipedia editor using their own analysis to make unsourced claims about a photograph. In other words, unambiguous original research. Dyrnych (talk) 21:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

...You do realize this is the talk page, right? You still don't seem to me to have read the sources in the article(s). Which starts to seem rather like WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT or similar. I really don't understand you. Seriously. You really can't understand that some of us can look at a cultural object and tell that it's a knockoff? Your really don't understand that there are cultural protocols and the individual in the photo is violating them? I don't expect you to know what all those protocols are, but you really don't understand, or didn't read the sources to know, that protocols exist? And now, on your talk page, you want to strategize some approach to this article without involving the normal editors who watch the talk pages of articles rather than your personal talk page? - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 23:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

It's becoming apparent that you're incapable of discussing actual policy without descending into unhinged accusations. I'm not "strategizing" about anything on my talk page, and the insinuation that I am (or that I've done something else wrongful) is absurd. Let me be absolutely clear about the issue with the caption: YOU ARE NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE FOR THE ETHNICITY OR RACE OF A PERSON IN A PHOTO. NOR ARE YOU A RELIABLE SOURCE FOR WHETHER A WAR BONNET IS FAKE. You can't cite your powers of observation to overcome that, especially when you're purporting to observe something nonobvious and contentious. Your lack of understanding of the core policy against original research strikes me as baffling, given that you're an admin. Dyrnych (talk) 23:52, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello. Perhaps I can be of some help here. The feathers in the bonnet the individual is wearing are not eagle feathers. They are either bleached turkey or goose feathers. I understand that not everyone is able to differentiate between the two but a quick google search shows the drastic difference between the two. Traditional bonnets do not contain garrishly dyed fluff feathers. The featherwrapping is not done in a traditional manner. If you zoom in on the loom work on the browband of the bonnet the pattern is not original, it is mass-produced loomwork that can be purchased online that is supposed to be in a 'Great Lakes' style. That is how one is able to tell that the bonnet in the pic is not traditional. Regarding the claim by talk, some Nations have a 1/4 blood quantum requirement. Some have no blood quantum requirement. In order to be enrolled in a Nation you must meet their enrollment requirements which they as sovereign Nations have every right to determine. I know of no Nation that turns it's back completely to descendants who can demonstrate their connection to community so long it's not the perpetuation of family myth. If you can't show how you connect how do you actually know?Indigenous girl (talk) 23:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I should have realized Moar shouting was called for. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Address the policy and I won't have to shout. Dyrnych (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Oops. I am referring to User:Pete unseth in my post where it addresses 'talk'. I need to pay better attention when I preview. My apologies.Indigenous girl (talk) 00:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Dyrnych, you quite emphatically stated,"YOU ARE NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE FOR THE ETHNICITY OR RACE OF A PERSON IN A PHOTO. NOR ARE YOU A RELIABLE SOURCE FOR WHETHER A WAR BONNET IS FAKE.". Let's pretend for a moment that the person depicted is Native American. They are embarassing their family and community by holding a beer while wearing the bonnet. Because they are at Mardi Gras they are not in a cultural setting where they would or should be wearing a bonnet. Perhaps he isn't aware of that. If that is the case then he did not earn the bonnet. Let's pretend for a moment that he is not Native American and is wearing an authentic bonnet. Well then he is subject to arrest, fines and possible incarceration because it would be illegal for him to be in possession of eagle feathers. This is a talk page so I am not going to provide the statutes as there is no need to source material however if your googlefoo is not in good form this evening please ping me and I will source the US Federal statute.Indigenous girl (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate that you may be knowledgeable about this, but your knowledge is not a basis for a statement of fact in a Wikipedia article, per WP:OR. We need a reliable source for the proposition that the individual depicted is non-Native and/or that the bonnet is inauthentic. Editor analysis is not a substitute for that. Dyrnych (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Dyrnych. I invite you to peruse the referenced links on the article page. Some of them address your concerns. If the picture feels to inflamatory to you I can look for another one tomorrow that is a bit more obviously inappropriate, perhaps where the photographer notes that the individual is not Native American or First Nations. Would that make you feel better?Indigenous girl (talk) 01:00, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Dyrnych, would you be opposed to this photograph https://www.flickr.com/photos/kt_ries/5848405597/in/photolist-wmMfwX-vpj7TC-bPDU1n-bPDTJp-bAKeW1-c7dXYY-912gHy-bAwFYQ-bAPxjJ-bPJcji-bPJc8K-5LDo8T-5LDmGM-bPDU3V-bPDTZ4-bAKfmA-bPDTGP-9UNBeg-bPDTUZ-bAPx73-bPJbZT-bAKf3U-bAKf7W-39xVNG-df5Nit-bAKfcE-bAPwSb-bAPwLY-bPJceT-bAPwX1-bPJbNZ-bPDbWc-bPJcc6-bPJc2n-bAKf6Q-bAPwKu-bAPxnw-bAPxtN-bAPxoY-bPJc6P ? It's Creative Commons and the photographer's quote addresses the issue at hand. Of course if you find this also to be a bit too harsh I could continue to search. I am actually trying to find a suitable photograph to use of Christina Fallon, the daughter of the Governor of Oklahoma since it's been established that she is not Native American or First Nations and that the headdress she likes to don to feel like a proper hipster is fake. At least I would hope it's fake otherwise she would be subject to arrest, fines and possible incarceration and I don't think her mom would appreciate that.Indigenous girl (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

As long as we have a source that identifies the subject of whichever photo we use as non-Native, I'm perfectly fine with it. Dyrnych (talk) 06:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

What a lot of lovely original research we have on that photo. Do you want to take a guess at the subject's age and name as well? You don't know his ethnic background. No offence intended, but this is a basic wikipedia rule. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm also wondering if we should even be using an image that clearly shows the face of a member of public on this article. I'd suggest nuking that image and finding one that has less issues. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:51, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Spacecowboy420, this is the talk page yes? I was simply explaining how easy it is to recognize the authenticity of a bonnet since Dyrnych questioned the ability to do so. It's really rather simple. Please note I did not add this information to the article itsself, I do understand wikipedia guidelines :) I don't care to guess his age, I do not possess that gift as I am not a carnie or a member of any other segment of society that claims to have these abilities. I have no problem with substituting a different photo. I provided a link to one.Indigenous girl (talk) 19:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Since the individual in question appears to be riding Big Al Taplet's bicycle(Big Al Taplet is a fairly well known outsider artist and that is clearly his bicycle) I've attempted to contact Big Al just out of curiosity. I understand this is original research and I will not of course add it to the article.Indigenous girl (talk) 20:00, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Indigenous girl. My comments were not based on what you said on the talk page, to be honest, I skipped over a lot of the comments. It was based purely on the caption that was put for the bonnet. I think that considering the amount of discussion about the image, it would be so much easier to find an image with less ambiguous qualities. I suggest an image of a fancy dress war bonnet (or similar costume) without the wearer. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

I will undo the last revert on the image caption for the following reasons.

1. We are unaware of the ethnic background of the image subject. Any comment along the lines of "he looks/acts white" is pure OR and just as offensive as people wearing a war bonnet as a costume. If you can find a better imagine with a source stating the ethnic background of the subject, I suggest you use it, or leave race out of the comment. WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES makes it clear that selecting images based on ethnic background is considered to be original research.

2. MOS:CAPTIONS "Captions should be succinct; more information about the image can be included on its description page, or in the main text." Fifty Six Words is not succinct. Not by any stretch of the imagination could it ever be considered to be succinct. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by having information on a caption that would be better placed in a later section of the article.

3. It's the lead image. As per WP:LEADIMAGE it should be "the type of image that is used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works" which it most certainly isn't. It's not a professional quality image, the subject and context are ambiguous.

4. As per Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people#Defamation "Images must not unfairly ridicule or demean the subject. This may result simply from the content of the image but can also arise by poor choice of title, description or category. Defamation is both a legal and moral issue; therefore, Commons does not base decisions on whether the subject is able or likely to sue." making unsubstantiated claims about the subject's ethnic background and making accusations of culture appropriation on an image with a clearly identifiable member of the public is unacceptable and most certainly falls within the category of "unfairly ridicule or demean the subject". Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:32, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

[Undent] Spacecowboy420, you wrote, "My comments were not based on what you said on the talk page, to be honest, I skipped over a lot of the comments." If you are not willing to read others' comments on the talk page, you should not be reverting and saying, "see talk page." The caption no longer mentions ethnicity, nor did earlier versions before others added it in. Rather it focuses on cultural protocol. I have no attachment to this particular image, but others added it and hipster headdresses seem to be a prime example. If a better photo with the proper licensing is available, replacing it is fine with me. I'm going to ask again, Have you read the sources? - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 15:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan: You seem to be misunderstanding the issue that other editors have with the photo and caption. This is the argument that you seem to be making: "The article has sources which state that an example of cultural appropriation is a Native American headdress worn by a non-Native or without the proper protocol." Fine, great. I don't think that anyone is disputing that statement. But here's the problem: we don't have a source that identifies this specific photo as an example of cultural appropriation. You can't just state, as you did earlier, that your understanding of cultural protocol is sufficient to declare this photo a violation or that your understanding of headdresses is sufficient to proclaim this a knockoff. As I stated earlier, that is original research. I asked you to explain how it's NOT an example of original research and (as you've often done on this talk page) you declined to respond to the policy in question, preferring to offer the same irrelevant argument restated above. So I ask you to either identify a source that states that the specific image in question is cultural appropriation or concede the argument. Dyrnych (talk) 18:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

If you read the sources you will see that it doesn't matter whether or not it's a knockoff, or whether or not the guy has (or believes he has) some Native blood. The sources explain why what he's doing is wrong. The individual's hipster headdress is an example of appropriation, as stated in the sources. If you feel we need a photo that says, in the licensing info uploaded to WP, "This photo is an example of cultural appropriation", rather than just posting an example of what is said in the sourced content, I think this is asking for more than is needed and at this point you're just being disruptive. Good luck finding something that says that, with proper licensing. Find a better photo if you don't like this one. This photo is there because the licensing is appropriate. I don't care about this particular photo, or even about having one, but others seem to want an illustration. What I do care about is when people post misinformation about Native protocols, and demonstrate clearly they have not read the sources. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:59, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

As an attempt to bring peaceful resolution to the discussion of the caption for the man with a warbonnet, could we write a caption that did not specifically identify the man's ethnicity? For example, "An example of behavior that is labeled Cultural Appropriation would be a non-Native American wearing a warbonnet." Would this be an acceptable compromise?Pete unseth (talk) 19:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

I would be fine with that. Saying "non-Native" was actually my initial compromise when others kept inserting "Caucasian":[8] My most recent compromise, that has zero mention of any ethnicity, and that Mr.420 just removed:[9] stresses that this is about cultural protocols, not blood. I'm also fine with other versions we've agreed on that don't mention ethnicity at all. Ironically, we've had versions that said nothing about ethnicity stay stable for weeks while people wanted to shout here about things that weren't even in the caption. *shrugs* - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Who is misinforming whom? I'm deleting the photo and the caption, since you don't care about it and refuse to address the OR implications of the caption. Also, I am beyond tired of your unfounded, bullshit accusations of inappropriate conduct. Dyrnych (talk)

You don't have consensus to do that. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Considering the amount of issues regarding that image that have not been addressed, until there is clear consensus regarding the use of that image and the caption, deleting it seems very sensible. I am against anything regarding the race or background of the photo subject. As much as you can't made a comment on what race he "looks like", you can't make any comments on him being non-native, without knowing his background. Making a general statement along the lines of ""An example of behavior that is labeled Cultural Appropriation would be a non-Native American wearing a warbonnet." would be equally wrong, changing the wording would still imply that the subject of the photo, is the subject of the caption.

We could go in the other direction, and have a headdress being worn in a suitable setting, with wording along the lines of "only when worn in a culturally sensitive manner etc etc"

Or we don't even have to base the lead image on anything native american, this article is based on the appropriation of all cultures. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

So, only white people can "culturally appropriate"?

I'd like to see one of the SJWs with their white guilt to explain why this isn't cultural appropriation: http://www.cinemablend.com/images/news_img/72335/marlon_wayans_72335.jpg

If you could point out which culture is being appropriated from and the significance of the items being appropraited it would help to form an explaination. Is everything in the picture supposed to be the intellectual pproperty of one ethnicity or culture?Indigenous girl (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's productive to engage with this topic, given that it doesn't seem to be geared towards improving the article. Dyrnych (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Find something reliable, with a source stating that it is cultural appropriation, and it would be suitable for the article. Doesn't matter about the background of the person, it just needs a reliable source. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

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Still needs good definition

This article needs a clearer definition of what is "cultural appropriation". Here are some examples that would be classified as cultural appropriation by some definitions: A Japanese conductor in a tuxedo leading a Japanese orchestra and choir performing Beethoven's 9th symphony. African farmers growing corn/maize. People of non-Italian descent eating pizza. People outside of the USA drinking Coca-Cola or wearing jeans. Europeans performing Hip Hop. Gurkha military bagpipers wearing kilts. People around the world wearing Manchester United jerseys.

I hope we can agree that these are acceptable practices. BUT, how do we distinguish such cases of borrowing from cases where people find it objectionable? Until this can be clarified in a way that is broadly understood, this article will continue to cause some to mock and others to post on this Talk page with contributions that are either too protective against any borrowing, or posts that mock the idea that borrowing can ever be offensive. When is borrowing from another culture seen as honoring it vs. dishonoring it? Pete unseth (talk) 14:45, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

For this article, I guess it becomes appropriation, when someone cries about it in the media. It's mostly some underachieving minor public figure crying for attention, people like Azealia Banks have more publicity attached to their claims of cultural appropriation, than they do to their actual career. But hey, I'm biased - I used to play cowboys and indians as a kid, I guess I have disrespected an entire nation. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

“Taking intellectual property, traditional knowledge, cultural expressions, or artifacts from someone else's culture without permission. This can include unauthorized use of another culture's dance, dress, music, language, folklore, cuisine, traditional medicine, religious symbols, etc. It's most likely to be harmful when the source community is a minority group that has been oppressed or exploited in other ways or when the object of appropriation is particularly sensitive, e.g. sacred objects.”

The concept of sacred or religious or military/earned objects and tattoos is of significance here in comparison to some examples given. Consent also, is of significance, as in cultures that have been enslaved or less officially financially dominated. To give an example, there are some aspects of vodou that shouldn't be practiced, or can't be, without officiating by a houngan or mambo practitioner, but everyone is free to worship their ancestors in their own homes using established vodou rituals.

To speak frankly for a moment, this talk page is an embarrassment to Wikipedia's claims of NPOV, and has diminished my trust in the site's overall ability to engage with maturity on serious topics. Not talking about the top commenter here, but "cowboys and Indians" fan there is right, even if they don't know it - it's not hard to find Native discussions on how damaging those stereotypes are, unless you're just not willing to listen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.143.15 (talk) 05:58, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

The lead

The original lead seemed to be very POV, accepting certain minority and politically correct views on the subject. I introduced reliable content to balance the lead, as is required as per NPOV,etc. Cultural appropriation is a controversial opinion, the lead either needs to accept nether opinion and state very fucking clearly that this is a minority opinion, or it needs to give both sides of the story.

Trim or add content to balance the lead, which do people prefer? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

You didn't balance the lead at all. You added what is effectively a criticism of the concept before the actual definition of the concept. I agree that the lead needs balance, but that's hardly the way to do it. And edit-warring your content in doesn't do a lot to bolster your cause. Dyrnych (talk) 12:42, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm edit-warring, so you reverted me. Yeah, right. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:21, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

But either way, it's just a re-wording that is required. I'm sure I can fit it into the lead with the definition first. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Dyrnych is correct here. Criticism of the concept doesn't come before the definition of the concept; that is undue weight for the lead. Your clicking "undo" on multiple editors to repeatedly reinstate your additions is most definitely edit-warring. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 15:37, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Criticism of the concept already exists in the Overview section: "Proponents view cultural borrowing as inevitable and a contribution to diversity and free expression. This view distinguishes outright cultural theft or exotic stereotyping from more benign borrowing or appreciation. Cultural borrowing and cross-fertilization is seen by proponents as a generally positive thing, and as something which is usually done out of admiration of (and with no intent to harm) the cultures being imitated. The language of "appropriation" is sometimes criticized as misleadingly implying "theft" when applied to culture, which is not generally seen as an exhaustible resource."

This could use expansion and involve further additions to the body of the article, instead of just the lede. Speaking about the concept, has anyone addressed the role of loanwords in transmitting cultural concepts? Dimadick (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Corbie, when I look at the edit history of this article over the last few months, you seem to have clicked the undo button more than any other editor. If you want to discuss article content here, please do so. If you want to criticize my actions as an editor, then perhaps it would be more productive for you to look at your own edits first. Regarding criticism before the definition, I think I've already covered that point with the post directly above yours. I'm here to talk about the article, and improve it. My feeling is that cultural appropriation while notable enough to deserve an article, represents a minority viewpoint. As such, criticism is quite suitable for the lead, as many readers never make it further than that. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:25, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Agree with other editors. No way criticism comes before definition. I'm not convinced that the "political correctness" of the term is notable enough to be in the lead, but I'm not against it being in the lead if we can show it's a major notable criticism of it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:35, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Should I have used a very large font? I'm sure I can fit it into the lead with the definition first I agreed to that point yesterday, and pointed out where I agreed to that point in my previous post. Showing it is or isn't notable is easy. Either there are reliable sources or there aren't. I've always found notability to be one of the less ambiguous areas on wikipedia. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

I saw that you said that. Just agreeing with the comments. Forgive me if I'm not 100% clear ... it's late I should be in bed. I guess the question is more about due weight then. Is political correctness a major component of the concept? Do we give it lots of coverage? Curious what others think about putting it in lead and where if so EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:48, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

It's late for you. I've just got into the office, so I'm grumpy. It's nice to think of the human behind the keyboard, and understand we all have lives that are reflected in our talk page comments. I don't think political correctness is a part of the concept, but I do think that a lot of the criticism of the term cultural appropriation comes from the opinion that it is a politically correct term. I guess, I'm just looking for a way to have the lead explain that this is an opinion that has enough criticism to consider it as a minority view, or at least consider it not to be an overwhelming majority view. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:53, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

The term "cultural appropriation" has proved slippery enough here; trying to define it with an even more slippery neologism such as "Politically Correct" would bring about less clarity, not more. Best, - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 16:24, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Just as a pure guess, I would imagine that there are far, far more sources regarding the term politically Correct and far more accurate descriptions from those sources. If we can have an article on cultural appropriation, I'm pretty sure we can use a far more established term like politically correct. I would never suggest that we define cultural appropriation as a politically correct term, we shouldn't define anything, that's what reliable sources do for us. Besides, there is a huge difference between "cultural appropriation is a politically correct term" and "cultural appropriation is a concept that has been considered to be politically correct by some"

The lead is full of " is seen by some...", " is sometimes termed...", "According to authors in the field...", etc.

I see no difference in including the reference to it being considered as a politically correct term, apart from having some personal reason for making the article biased towards a cause that they may have some real life connection to. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Blackface an example of cultural appropriation?

Okay, I get that it is a racist caricature, I understand that it is meant to mimic black people, however none of that seems to indicate cultural appropriation by the article's own definition. What exactly is the aspect of black culture being used in that case? It is their facial features, not their culture.

If blackface performances were associated with taking certain symbols of great importance to African Americans out of context, then by all means leave it in, and say that explicitly in the article. As the article stands, it does not describe the cultural appropriation involved with donning blackface. -- Ollyoxenfree (talk) 04:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Not noteworthy, also very opinion based, request for removal

I Think this whole article is part solemnly on opinions and has no noteworthy news value, it only covers some social media discussions. I request for it to be removed. CoatThese (talk) 03:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)