Talk:Pope Miltiades

Copy edit request

@Governor Sheng: I've started my copy edit of this article per your request at WP:GOCE/REQ. As I'm not able to access the source material, I was hoping you may be able to double check the accuracy of the text after I've done my copy edit. Please check the background section if you have access to the source material, particularly the last two sentences. The original text is

There has been suggestion that he participated in the alleged apostasy of Pope Marcellinus, a view originating from the letters of Donatist Bishop Petilianus of Constantine from between 400 and 410, and challenged by Augustine of Hippo

My copy edited version is

It has been suggested that he was party to the alleged apostasy of Pope Marcellinus, and challenged by Augustine of Hippo. This view originated from letters, dated to between 400 and 410, written by Donatist Bishop Petilianus of Constantine.

The part that needs checking is whether the apostasy of Pope Marcellinus was challenged by Augustine of Hippo, or was it that Augustine of Hippo accused Pope Marcellinus of apostasy? or something else. If you can check this, that would be appreciated. Blackmane (talk) 12:38, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

First of all, I wish you all the best in the new year.

You done it well and correctly regarding the alleged apostasy of Pope Marcellinus. Augustine of Hippo repudiated the claim, not asserted it. All in all, the article looks very well and I thank you for it. :)

--Governor Sheng (talk) 17:03, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

@Governor Sheng: Thanks for checking. Please let me know if you need any other help with the article. I have it watchlisted. Blackmane (talk) 23:00, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Sure will. Thanks --Governor Sheng (talk) 19:05, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

@Blackmane, so here's the new question. The article states, in the "Background" chapter:

"According to the Liber Pontificalis, Miltiades was a Roman citizen[2] of Berber ethnic origin[3] from North Africa."

Now, the Liber Pontificalis states that he was a Roman citizen from Africa, but it doesn't state that he was a Berber. The claim about his Berber ethnicity can, truly, be found in various authors, but the ones who are used as a reference are Vincent Serralda anad André Huard. Is it necessary to make this distinction? If so, could you please rephrase the sentence so it is more clear, that the claim about Miltiades' Berber origin comes from a different source, and not from the Liber Pontificalis? --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Sure thing. Blackmane (talk) 00:17, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

@Governor Sheng: I've tweaked the sentence to make it explicit that that the Liber only states he was a Roman citizen and not conflated with him being a North African Berber. Blackmane (talk) 01:27, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot... The wording is great! :) --Governor Sheng (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pope Miltiades/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Display name 99 (talk · contribs) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Beginning review now. For future reference, the GA nom template should be placed at the very top of the article talk page. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Background

• "Miltiades, and his successor Sylvester I, was part of the clergy of Pope Marcellinus." There are several problems with this sentence. 1) The first comma should be moved to after the word "successor." 2) Exchange were for was. 3) I'm not sure what "party of the clergy of Pope Marcellinus" means. Any priest or deacon is considered part of the Catholic clergy. Were they part of his inner circle? If so, different terminology should be used. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• "It has been suggested that he was party to the alleged apostasy of Pope Marcellinus..." Firstly, what was the alleged apostasy of Marcellinus? An explanation of one sentence or less would do. Secondly, what was the alleged role of Miltiades in it? Petillanus's charges against him should be explained.

Pontificate

• Remove double-link of Liber pontificalis. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• "This order, however, probably didn't extend to the other parts of Maxentius' jurisdiction." The article doesn't exactly say where they extended to at all. Furthermore, please avoid contractions when writing for Wikipedia. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• If you're going to include a brief explanation of what the Liber Pontificalis is, don't you think it would make sense to have the explanation the first time you mention it, rather than the third? Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• What was Miltiades' position on the war between Constantine and Maxentius? Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• Licinius's eventual persecution of Christians should be mentioned. If it happened after Miltiades' death, a brief mention is still warranted. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• I assume that the last paragraph before "Lateran council" is talking about the Edict of Milan. If so, please link to it. Any role that Miltiades might have had in the creation of the edict would be good to discuss. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Governor Sheng's responses

Background

• I fixed the the first two issues. Regarding the third issue, would the formulation "was a presbyter under Marcellinus" be fine? I can find the sources mentioning him either as "part of clergy" or "presbyter" of Marcellinus. Though the Catholic Encyclopedia refers to him simply as a "Roman priest". The fact that in other sources he's mentioned as part of Marcellinus clergy is for simple reason Marcellinus was at the time Bishop of Rome, and Miltiades served him as a presbyter in Rome. So I guess my proposal would be good enough? Tell me what you think.

• So I have added a brief explanation. I would go explaining it to widely, as I believe it would add unnecessary weight against Miltiades, considering that it is a contested claim, disputed by Augustine of Hippo. Miltiades' role is that he simply participated in the event of the alleged apostasy - surrendering books and offering incenses to the pagan gods. Would current formulation be satisfying?

Pontificate

• Done.

• It is not known in which areas the order was applied. Therefore, I changed the wording from "to the other parts of the jurisdiction" to "to all of the parts of the jurisdiction". Would this be fine?

• Done.

• Unfortunately, we have no information about Miltiades' position on the war between Constantine and Maxentius. The sources about him are very obscure, and only information we have about him come from Liber Pontificalis and Liberian Catalogue, which are silent on this matter.

• Done.

• Done. Does this formulation looks good?

--Governor Sheng (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I've decided to promote this article. I fixed a couple grammar errors just now. I wish we could get something on what Miltiades did during the Constantine-Maxentius War, but if the sources really don't say anything reliable about it then there's nothing that can be done. Anyway, good work. Display name 99 (talk) 00:38, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Miltiades The African Was Black

Somehow, this is not reflected on the image that is used, which makes him... a redhead? https://thedailymass.com/st-miltiades/ https://thedailymass.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/deporress.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/bd/ae/5dbdae40ede81807a4db80cddb1860e7.jpg This is a trend. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 17:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

There are no authentic portraits of Pope Miltiades. We'll never know how he looked like. Perhaps only approximately if the scientists would reconstruct his face based on his skull, and again without the possibility of knowing his skin tone. He was of Berber descent, and probably had a tone similar to that of Zinedine Zidane (who's also of Berber descent)... But no way of knowing for sure. :)

Zidane...

--Governor Sheng (talk) 00:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

So are the Sandaya. In fact, the Berbers started out Black, and only whitened over time. Also, when has anyone called him Zinedine Zidane The African? Zidane is from the Kabyl region of Algeria, which was also colonized by the French pied-noir.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/8f/dd/5c/8fdd5c8e779a5586137c01106418ca6a.jpg Sandaya/Sanhaya Berbers of Southern Morocco, Senegal

[Tuareg Woman https://i.pinimg.com/564x/fa/24/2d/fa242dd988962d115d2870b398b8a614.jpg]

There is a very thin line between North Africa and West Africa.

[Tuareg man and woman https://i.pinimg.com/564x/03/3c/43/033c436189240d7266548c784704cb89.jpg]

The fact that Zinedine Zidane is presented as an example of 'the Berber' shows that this is an artifice. What is your evidence that Pope Miltiades The African 'probably had a tone similar to that of Zinedine Zidane'? Also, 'of Berber descent' doesn't narrow down anything. How much Berber descent? And more likely to be representative of his Arabic (Kurdish) or even Spanish descent.

Pope Miltiades lived centuries before the Arabic expansion into North Africa. According to David Reich, "Today, the peoples of North Africa owe most of their ancestry to West Eurasian migrants, making the deep genetic past in that region difficult to discern." (Source: Who We are and how We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past, by David Reich, "Humanity's Ghosts", page 85).

The Tuaregs are also Berbers. Tuareg - speak the truth

By the way, the biggest haplogroup among the Berbers is E1b1b, as it is among the Somalis, while E1b1a is biggest in West Africa. Berber is classified as an Afro-Asiatic language, along with East, South and Central Cushitic, Omotic, Beja, Semitic, Ancient Egyptian and Hausa/Chadic.

"Perhaps only approximately if the scientists would reconstruct his face based on his skull, and again without the possibility of knowing his skin tone." That's not so. If they had his skull, they'd have his dna, and with today's dna they'd know exactly whether he had the ancestral allele of skin pigmentation meaning he was Black, or whether he had any loss of function derived allele on SLC24A5 and/or SLC45A2. They'd know whether he had the ancestral allele for hair texture, i.e. Afro hair, or the derived alleles which produce straight hair. And much more. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 09:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)