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Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.159.103.216|86.159.103.216]] ([[User talk:86.159.103.216#top|talk]]) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.159.103.216|86.159.103.216]] ([[User talk:86.159.103.216#top|talk]]) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Illuminati/Illuminaten means "enlightened ones" - plural; illuminatus: "one of the enlightened".[[User:XDev|XDev]] ([[User talk:XDev|talk]]) 16:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
: Illuminati/Illuminaten means "enlightened ones" - plural; illuminatus: "one of the enlightened". They explain in their rituals that the name descends from the first christians who were called illuminati when they were illuminated with the holy spirit, i.e. baptized. Church tradition mentions illuminati in this context in catholicism and protestantism. [[User:XDev|XDev]] ([[User talk:XDev|talk]]) 16:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:17, 1 March 2020

Fake

Closing this discussion before it gets out of hand. Jalen D. Folf (talk) 04:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is wrong and fake Abdurrahmanchamp1 (talk) 12:41, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Could you be more specific? What exactly do you think is "wrong and fake"? Blueboar (talk) 13:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This article is screaming out for reliable, modern references. We've done our best with what we can find, perhaps you can help? Fiddlersmouth (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

None of this is True. Maxwell J. Walred (talk) 12:09, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Billsmith56 (talk) 21:33, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The illuminati is a facist subhuman cult, which leads the subhumans to believe they are racially pure and thus superior to other half breeds, in which they are as well. It was an sociological operation incepted by the Roman's, exploiting natural occurring sociological disputes such as tribalism, but was designed to exploit the ignorance of subhumans who believed in their appearances rather than actual genetic evidence, and the truth of what tribal groups they belonged to. Overall it was another Roman empire strategy to conquer the world and those they saw as the "barbaric tribes". There for the illuminati is not in the sense what many had thought and believed it was, and were only trapped by members of the Roman legion. There is on the other hand the Christian pacifist believers system one may refer to as the real illuminati, but it is not the material form that the Roman's have transformed the movement into a tribalistic materialist version, rather than the spiritual version of Christ and his believers. So worry only about finding true happiness which is the holy spirit and not some worldly materialist issue like tribalism and sociology, and you will be on the right path. Render to Ceasar what is Caesars and God what is Gods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1010:B028:4BD0:B109:BD0A:F5F0:7FC2 (talk) 06:44, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Conspiracy theory

An editor has objected to the inclusion of the term "conspiracy theorists" in this section, on the grounds that the term is "biased". Please discuss. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think that this is an accurate and appropriate term to use in this context. The overwhelming majority of those who say that the Illuminati still exist, do so in the context of discussing various conspiracies. It is not biased to describe those who believe in a conspiracy as being "conspiracy theorists"... it is the literal definition of that term. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely support. Conspiracy theorist is more encyclopedic than nutter, but most of the survival myth was, I believe, constructed to make money out of gullible people. I have my own words, all of which would result in an editorial ban. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the primary scope?

"In subsequent use, "Illuminati" refers to various organisations which claim or are purported to have links to the original Bavarian Illuminati or similar secret societies, though these links are unsubstantiated."

Almost certainly the most notable and recognizable use of "Illuminati" in modern times is either as part of a conspiracy theory or as generic secretive world order used in fiction (e.g. Deus Ex). I fail to see how these supposed organisations claiming to be descended from the actual Illuminati have a higher notability (or ANY, for that matter) than the ones alleged to exist in conspiracy theories and fiction. I know I've never heard of them, and I doubt anyone - perhaps not even the groups themselves - would take it seriously. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You may not have heard of these groups.... but they do exist. And while their claims to be continuations or recreations of the Bavarian Illuminati may well be bogus, that is the claim that they make. Blueboar (talk) 22:11, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Blueboar, don't revert something when clear reason has been given for its removal. Two of the links I deleted were literally expired meaning whoever registered them could no longer be bothered with it, while the third denounced their claim of being an "Illuminati". You may want them to be, but using outdated sources to support a claim is extremely misleading. Also please read WP:NOTABILITY. Not everything that is written down should be on Wikipedia. Some unknown fraternity claiming to be related to the Illuminati is certainly one of these cases. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) Don't revert when you have been reverted. Use the talk page first. The reason is not clear. Even if it was, you are still edit warring. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:30, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was of the opinion that Blueboar missed the point of my deletion of the expired/redacted sources, which was quite uncontroversial as there is no point in using sources that have lost their only value. My stance of their relevance wasn't related to that. But you're right, it does count as edit warring. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Prinsgezind, your concern about the expired links is somewhat valid (It is possible that some of these groups may have shit down since the article was written, and so I will see if the groups have updated websites before I restore).
As for your concern about WP:Notability, I don't need to read it, as I helped write it. That guideline only applies to the question of whether something merits having an entire article devoted to it... not whether it should be mentioned (in passing) in a related article. I would agree that these modern fraternal groups do not merit there own stand alone articles... but they certainly merit a passing (one sentence) mention in this article...if only so readers understand the difference between a) the historical order, b) these real modern groups (which either pretend to have a direct link to the historical group, or pretend to be a recreation of it) and c) the paranoid imaginings of conspiracy theorists. Blueboar (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Blueboar: You're also right there, I actually linked the wrong policy. I was thinking of Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. This, though, was to justify my edit to the lead. I don't think expired sources (not broken or archived ones, mind you) are of any value when discussiong the present-day situation. But my other point was that while it's related to the subject and can be found online, the relevance of the existence of such fringe groups is very low. If we are to include information on groups that personally identify with the Illuminati, do we also include information on groups that say they're fighting the Illuminati? Because that's a rabbit hole I don't think would lead to very appropriate encyclopedic material. And that's just assuming they can be properly verified, as it would likely require resorting to the use of more self-published sources (such as the ones formerly provided) that are in no way reliable. Even as proof of existence it looks like a red flag to me:
  • "challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"
  • "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them."
Ding ding on both. I'm of the same opinion that the distinction between the actual historical group and the modern cultural/conspirational/fictional forms should be clearly distinguished, but what place do these fringe claims have in it? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
re: "do we also include information on groups that say they're fighting the Illuminati?"... nope. The topic of this article is a historical fraternal order... it is "on topic" to mention (in passing) that there are modern groups that claim to be a continuation (or recreation) of that historical order... but to mention modern opposition groups takes us "off topic". Blueboar (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2017

The illuminati is the devil 66.87.64.174 (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Request invalid on a variety of grounds. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

18th Century Pagans?

"Christians of good character were actively sought, with Jews and pagans specifically excluded, along with women, monks, and members of other secret societies."

Is there a source for their being pagans in 18th Century Bavaria? I find it rather hard to believe, as fascinating as it would be if true.

My guess is that the word comes from one of the cited sources... note that back in the 18th and 19th century the word "pagan" had a fairly broad meaning, and was commonly used in reference to anyone who was not a Christian (or a Jew?). Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It comes directly from the confiscated Bavarian Illuminati documents; INSTRUCTIO PRO RECIPIENTIBUS, specifically: "Jews, pagans, women, monks, and members of other secret orders" were prohibited from joining. In 18th century enlightenment nomenclature the term pagan could equally apply to a muslim a confucianist or what today we'd term an occultist. Basically if you weren't jewish, christian or an atheist, 'pagan' covers everything else. XDev (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Minor grammar edit to page

In the very last sentence under the 'in popular culture' section it says "Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco and ." Can someone either get rid of the "and" or add in the other author (if there is any). Phishcat (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Done Blueboar (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks :) Phishcat (talk) 03:12, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls is based on the Illuminati.

He should be added on the Popular Culture page. Galefuun (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have requested a citation for that. (also... I think it too trivial to mention, but that is another issue). Blueboar (talk) 22:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Origins in 1960s - new source

This in-depth BBC piece chronicles the deliberate fabrication of the Illuminati myth in the 1960s counter-culture, with reference to published works. Among other important aspects, it says that the 18th-century events are more or less unrelated to the modern tale. I have not yet incorportated any of this: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy. Onanoff (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Anton Wilson and Discordian literature has indeed contributed toward the myth, but they in turn had embellished upon real sources. The John Birch society, for instance, as well as the writings of Nesta Webster and Lady Queensborough. This tradition was concerned with the Master Conspiracy thesis that an overarching secret society was behind all major incidents since the French Revolution. And they had sources as well: John Robison and Abbe Barruel. It's really an unbroken tradition that goes back to the last two authors who were contemporaries of the Illuminati in the 18th century. In different eras there were varying levels of popularity, but it was always there lurking and publishing material for centuries - material that Wilson et al. made great use of.XDev (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wanna know if this thing exist or not. Cddkx (talk) 14:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Read the article... it existed for a short time back in the 1700s. Not today. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gradal

I have no idea 'gradal' is -- if it is, indeed, a word -- nor what it's supposed to mean. Not removing it because I don't know what to replace it with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.207.104.228 (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A system of conferred degrees/grades: gradal system. Put it into quotes and search for its historical context if you are not aware; it's the foundation of Freemasonry and other initiatic societies.XDev (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... While I understand what a "gradal system" is supposed to mean, this query caused me to look further... and I can not find it in any dictionary. I also did as XDev suggests (I put it into quotes and searched for it in a historical context) and did not find it. So... I have tweaked the sentence, so those who are not already familiar with the topic will better understand. Blueboar (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]


To add to "see also"

--188.171.58.80 (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done The majority of those are completely unrelated to those paying attention to reality instead of brainwashing themselves with conspiracy theorist delusions. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Illuminati in Africa

Well so. those who have Africa experience, the most probable translation of Illuminati is "Cindle, ignite", "set fire to" meaning hammer and pick. I am experienced and from my point of view there is nothing else to say about it. Wikistallion (talk) 15:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, your own experience is not enough... wikipedia’s policies require us to base what we write in our articles on reliable (Published) sources. So unless there are reliable sources that talk about the Illuminati in relation to Africa, we can not say anything about it. Thanks for sharing, however. Blueboar (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Communication

Since becoming a member of the Illuminati movement I found that communication is a no-no. As a human scientist with a Doctorate in human sciences, I found that communication and good relations create a bond so strong that it cannot be broken. If one does not communicate there is always suspicion in the air. I found this in the Illuminati movement. I do not know if it is forbidden or members are too scared because of the autocracy that is applied from the top. If communication and good relations are dead in any organization then the organization is rotten within and that is when great empires in the past have crumbled and were eventually destroyed. Everyone I have contacted since my acceptance refuses to talk to me and this is from bottom to the top. I have now made it my mission to get behind this ugly way of keeping silent. Two old members of the Illuminati who left the movement since said it became unbearable because you get the impression people are suspicious of one another all the time. One is not to know who is who in the organization and one of their missions to free all men is a fallacy because once you are in the movement and at the lower level you become a pawn who is not allowed to talk to senior members. You are allocated a person and you can only talk to him and what he carries over to his senior is a mystery. I start to experience this in real life because I have been accepted as a member but have never been initiated and my questions why not fall on death ears. I have been accepted in October 2019 had altercations with junior members and I filed an email to the office in Los Angeles where I was appointed in October last year but no answer. I followed up several times and was told to be patient like a schoolboy and yet no answer. I have tried different other offices of the movement but no answer. It looks like everyone is afraid of everyone and therefore does not answer me. I consult with many big businesses about communication, relationships and to treat people like human beings but I get the opposite attitude in the Illuminati. Why is it like that? I ask one of the prominent members of the society to contact me and advise me if I am wrong and to assist me to get my email asking for info answered, please. Dr E Smit eddielene@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.13.104.79 (talk) 14:55, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Conscript

I have been appointed member of the Illuminati since October 2019, not yet initiated due to in my view the autocratic way in which members of the Illuminati are treated. In the Illuminati is a do as you are told and do not ask a question, do not think for yourself and become a zombie if you are at the lower and middle levels of the organization. It is run like the old communist countries. The elite has all the freedom and says while the lower ranks must just fall in line and keep their mouths shut. These members are not entitled to have a say or have any access to information. They are not members with thinking brains, no ability or talent they are just there to fill the numbers, attend rituals and do as they are told. To me, that is enslavement and becoming a pawn and zombie. Why I am not yet initiated is a mystery because notwithstanding my communication there is only silence. I have had the guts to ask a very simple question and as a human scientist and thinking person, I have unknowingly probably challenge rules and rituals unknown to me. As one dead member, dead in his soul said to me you question what you do not agree with or understood instead of just following orders. That to me is sheeplike to follow blindly notwithstanding the consequences. I believe if I study some of the noble ideals of the organization they strive to free us as humans instead they enslave them to such an extent that they are becoming zombies. I was told by a previous president of Amerca there is no such thing that you have to sell your soul to Satan and yet certain more senior members are so obsessed with Satan that their whole life depends on it that is why they write an email and at the end they quote HAIL TO LUCIFER. I have news for these people namely I have studied all religions of the world to find out who God and Satan really are, and I have done that for thirty years and is busy writing a book on the subject. Satan is only a figure created in the minds of certain people and so are the man God. There is a bigger force in the universe which trumps both of these ideas and if the people in the Illuminati who are responsible for policy, rules, and rituals talk to me I will explain and prove what I am saying is fact and they who hail Lucifer has the wrong idea. However, there are certain figures in the Illuminati, like some of Hitler's general who believed they have the power to do what they like and in their endeavors, they do more harm than good. The Illuminati is following the same path as the big Roman empire, communism, France who collapsed of a revolution and so many others because within its ranks are figures who believe they are greater than what they are. To enslave all your members and make them Zombies is one of the most dangerous things one can do because you create the germ of discontent and sooner or later this discontent will boil over and like any great empire will collapse. I am treated like an outsider because I ask questions and the movement has not initiated me and bestow on me what had been promised at my appointment because there is no communication, one or two people believed they can bully me by preventing my initiation, therefore stop me from becoming a full member of the organization. I appeal to those with common sense who has the power to step in and resolve this matter. I am not going to go away and will lobby powerful individuals at the to of the organization until my case has been finalized. I am Dr E Smit of South Africa and my email is eddieelene@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.13.120.109 (talk) 05:51, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Illuminati translates to 'light'

Illuminati does not mean "enlightened", in the strictest sense as translated. This definition was assigned to the group who called themselves Illuminati.

Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.103.216 (talk) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Illuminati/Illuminaten means "enlightened ones" - plural; illuminatus: "one of the enlightened". They explain in their rituals that the name descends from the first christians who were called illuminati when they were illuminated with the holy spirit, i.e. baptized. Church tradition mentions illuminati in this context in catholicism and protestantism. XDev (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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