Talk:Mahjong

Limit Hand: Heavenly Gates

My understanding is that the hand Heavenly Gates is never ever melded. The 13 tiles must be concealed, and depending on rule variations, the 14th can be a discard (impure) or self drawn (pure), although both ways pay the limit. The whole reason behind its name Heavenly Gates, and reputation as the most perfect hand, is that any of the same suit tiles will complete the hand (complementing the 13 tiles in hand as a pair, pung or chow, to produce the required four sets and a pair):

• If the hand is completed by a 1: the hand is 111 123 456 789 99
• If the hand is completed by a 2: the hand is 111 345 678 999 22
• If the hand is completed by a 3: the hand is 123 345 678 999 11
• If the hand is completed by a 4: the hand is 111 234 456 789 99
• If the hand is completed by a 5: the hand is 111 234 678 999 55
• If the hand is completed by a 6: the hand is 123 456 678 999 11
• If the hand is completed by a 7: the hand is 111 234 567 789 99
• If the hand is completed by a 8: the hand is 111 234 567 999 88
• If the hand is completed by a 9: the hand is 123 456 789 999 11

Note how the sets shift depending on which tile completes the hand. If any sets are melded, the winning tile is much more limited and the hand is thus not 'Heavenly', but ordinary. Having melded sets would be considered cheating - it elevates a mere single suit hand of multiple chows and one or two pungs to a limit hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.161.120 (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

In most versions Heavenly gates must be concealed or fully concealed. In a few variations or table rules...a previously melded pong of 1 and or 9 can be included and it is considered half-limit or specific amount of points less than a limit hand/max points.. --Shabidoo | Talk 03:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Beijing Mahjong

In the flash game Beijing Mahjong http://www.mahjongready.com/games/Play/Beijing-Mahjong.htm (fully Chinese), I don't understand any of the unusual winning hands (from the instructions). Can anyone translate these winning hands (and the conditions) so I can try them while playing:

• 坐庄 (坐莊) - 两翻 (points doubled for hand)
• 听牌 (聽牌)- 两翻
  • Won with a ready hand
• 门清 (門清) - 两翻
• 自摸 - 两翻
  • Won with the winning tile drawn?
• 地胡 - 四翻 (points quadrupled for hand)
• 天听 (天聽) - 两翻
• 天胡 - 四翻
• 杠呲 - 两翻
  • Winning tile is from a Kong
• 捉伍魁 - 两翻
• 一条龙 (一條龍) - 两翻
  • Hand has 1-9, Chow (吃) of a suit.
• 七小对 (七小對)- 两翻
  • Hand has seven pairs
• 豪华七小对 - 四翻
• 字一色 - 四翻
  • Hand is pure honors (no wan, circle, or bamboo tiles)
• 清一色 - 四翻
  • Hand is purely either wan, circle, or bamboo tiles (no honors)
• 全求人 - 十六翻 (points multiplied by a power of 16?)

For the kongs:

• 明杠 - 1個(5分/個)
  • Exposed kong, 5 points for each said kong in winning hand.
• 暗杠 - 1個(10分/個)
  • Concealed kong, 10 points for each said kong in winning hand.

Some already have conditions, so I would like others to help me as well. (In-game, some of the characters are in Traditional Chinese) Thanks!

• 99.27.105.64 (talk) 01:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Old Hong Kong mahjong but with American terminology?

The section describes mahjong as played in Hong Kong but the terminology is from the American version. Examples: bamboo, stones, characters, dragons, goulash, going mahjong.--Countakeshi (talk) 21:30, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

The game doesn't describe how mahjong is played in Hong Kong (many play modern hong kong or ISR)...it describes one particular rule set which is called "Hong Kong Mahjong" which was in the past played by some in Hong Kong as well as others outside of Hong Kong. It does not belong to Hong Kong and few English speaking players use Cantonese or Mandarin terms when playing. When English players play Mahjong, they use English (not American) terminology with the possible exception of "chow, pong, kong" translated from various Chinese dialects or even Japanese/Korean. We aren't going to put five different langauge translations next to every single mahjong term. It is the English language term as not all English speaking players are American. If it was American terminology then it would include terms only used in "American mahjong rules" which is not the case here. There is already a heavy saturation of Chinese, Japanese, Korean translated terms listed next to most terms listed in English. The article will only become even more jammed with terminology translations and pronunciations at a level that is rarely seen in other articles on Wikipedia. --Shabidoo | Talk 14:02, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know there are no other widely used English terms for Mahjong, American or otherwise, so I don't know what other terminology could be used. --5.65.87.152 (talk) 15:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. "American terminology" should be better described as "Babcock terminology". From looking around at the wikis in other languages, every language except for Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, and Korean uses Babcock's terms. The Vietnamese were already well acquainted with Chinese terms since they use various types of Chinese playing cards including the closely related Bài tới and Tổ tôm decks. The Japanese imported the game in 1909 and transliterated the Chinese terms. Korean seems to be part translation and part transliteration probably through multiple vectors including Japanese influence during the occupation period. Babcock was not entirely wrong when he used "dragons" for the three elemental or cardinal honors. He preferred (and sold) a less common variant set that used red dragons (龍) and green phoenixes (鳳). I think the section "Mahjong in the West" is too narrow as it deals primarily with the US and not where it is most popular, other East and Southeast Asian countries. The game's popularity lasted longer in the British Empire and there are various continental European styles as well.--Countakeshi (talk) 16:38, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Foreign terms should be used sparringly

As per MOS:FOREIGN I think parts of this article has become filled with foreign terms. It's totally appropriate in the section: "name" and "variations" as well as in the lede and infobox, they clog up the article in other sections. We don't need a translations of the word "chow" or "dragons" in multiple languages in the actual article. This creates information overload and disrupts the flow of the article. I do believe having these terms in other languages is useful. I would like to either put these terms in footnotes, or have an embedded glossary (as the glossary wouldn't be large enough to have a standalone article. Shabidoo | Talk 19:39, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Potential source material

Just leaving it here: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/phr.2010.79.3.329?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 21:31, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Great. Thanks kyuuA4! I'll read it when i get a chance. Considere editing the article and/or offer suggestions etc! --Shabidoo | Talk 14:18, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

too many cooks spoil the broth

"mahjong is also spelled mahjong"... wut? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.189.203.163 (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Good point. I have corrected. --Roly (talk) 09:24, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Some inconsistencies in the explanation of scoring

I'm not an expert but hoping someone who is can clarify these apparent inconsistencies in the text:

1. Bonus Fan: "A player only scores a bonus fan for Flowers or Seasons if it is their own flower or season (East=1, South=2, West=3 and North=4) or if the player has all four Flowers or all four Seasons (scoring 5 fan in total)." According to the table above however it would be 3 fan, as the table says "All 4 Flowers: 2 (plus one for own flower)." Which is correct?
2. Examples, Hand 1: states that 4 fan --> 1 base point, but the fan to base point table says 4 fan --> 2 base points. Which is correct?
3. Limit hands: "A common scoring limit is 64 points, which is the highest base points doubled twice." According to what precedes this sentence, the highest base points is 8, and doubling that twice would lead to 8->16->32. So is 32 the common scoring limit, or should it say doubled thrice, or is 8 not really the highest base points?

Ottosmo (talk) 17:14, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for pointing out these inconsistencies!

1. Yes, this should be corrected. I'll take a look at the article history to see how that happened.

Limit hands: What was meant (but not well expressed) was that the limit of 64 is double "two doubles" or "twice as much as 2x2" (as there cannot be more than two doubles for a regular hand. This means a limit hand will score twice as much as you could get for a regular hand. I'll also check out the history there. I'll also mention that 64 is just one possible limit. 16 and 32 are also accepted limit hands amongst various players

Heavenly gates. Yes, there are nine legal hands (though it's hard to imagine how before trying to work them out). I was also surprised when I realised that it is possible:

11(1) 123 456 789 99

111 (2)2 345 678 999

11 123 (3)45 678 999

111 234 (4)56 789 99

111 234 (5)5 678 999

11 123 456 (6)78 999

111 234 567 (7)89 99

111 234 567 (8)8 999

11 123 456 789 (9)99

Shabidoo | Talk 02:20, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

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GREAT WORK EVERYONE

Really well done dog2 for copyediting and clarifying, there was a lot that needed cleaning up or exapnding on! And mliu92 for modifying tables and images and other tweaks making the article look great! It's a much better article now everyone!! Shabidoo | Talk 21:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

My pleasure. I was just trying to add the terms that I know as someone who is somewhat familiar with mahjong myself. I hope it's been of help. The dog2 (talk) 00:52, 25 August 2018 (UTC)