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July 6

Terdoslavich

Watching the Phillies versus Atlanta, I saw Joseph Terdoslavich brought up from the minors for the first time to play for the Atlanta Braves. I laughed when the name was first pronounced TERDoslavich, and though I bet it's terDOslavich. Within 30 seconds the announcers corrected themselves, saying that according to the press office, it was actually terDOslavich. Can anyone confirm the name is Russian as I suspect, or Identify another origin? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 06:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not look like Russian at all. Serbo-Croatian Tvrdoslav / Tvrdislav is the most probable.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the -ich coming from then? μηδείς (talk) 17:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

From our article on Serbian names: "The -ić suffix is a Slavic diminutive, originally functioning to create patronymics", so Terdoslavich is the "little son of Tvrdoslav" 92.81.68.23 (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are we entitled to assume the name is really Tvrdoslav- instead of the way he spells it? μηδείς (talk) 23:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean how was it originally spelt - yes, probably. But however he spells his own name now is what it really is now. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, he's known as Joey Terdoslavich. --Xuxl (talk) 12:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a plausible, but very rare Croatian surname; etymology from Tvrdoslav (a fairly rare name today, but more common in the past) is highly likely. However, Croatian onomastics portal [1] records 3 Terdoslavić's in Croatia today, and 12 in 1950s (all from Dalmatia, an area of strong emigration to US), so that sound alternation likely occurred even in the homeland (well, it ain't so easy to pronounce even for native speakers). On the other hand, surname Tvrdoslavić only produces three Ghits, all from historical sources. 85.73.252.110 (talk) 12:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

July 7

Japanese names, Chinese names and Korean names

Just a quick question: could someone explain or link to a Wikipedia article that explains why normally, Japanese names, when written the West, have their order reversed (First name/Last name instead of Last name/First name), but Chinese and Korean names retain their order? (They stay Last name/First name when written in English). Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Links to Wikipedia article sections:

--Theurgist (talk) 01:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So called (as in the Kennett curse)

In Australian football there's something called the Kennett curse. It came to fruition again last night. But you don't have to understand what it is to get my point. Several times when I've heard it mentioned in the media this morning it's been described as the "so called Kennett curse". Why? It IS the Kennett curse. It has no other name. I keep trying to pin down the usage, but it's hard.

Is "so called" common around the rest of the English speaking world. Is it used in the same way? HiLo48 (talk) 00:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly recognized in the States (though of course it should be "so-called" with the hyphen). The Kennett curse may have no other name, but the commentators may wish to avoid implying (or being taken as implying) that they believe in curses. --Trovatore (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest it's because the terminology has no official status. It's just something that some bright spark dreamt up and others followed suit. It's only been around for less than 5 years and has not yet entered the Inner Sanctum of Holy AFL Lore. The so-called curse will inevitably be broken, and then everyone will probably forget about it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"So-called" is typically kind of an editorial comment by the speaker or writer. Although given its very short history, as Jack suggests, the one saying it might also be making light of it, even as curses go. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"So-called" may be because any streak of bad luck that's only 5-years long is hardly a curse. Other sporting "curses" such as the (now exorcised) Curse of the Bambino and the still-active Curse of the Billy Goat are an order of magnitude more curseful. --Jayron32 04:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I can accept all that about the particular curse I mentioned, but what about the expression's more general use? Dictionary definitions seem to vary between falsely, or commonly, or allegedly, or supposedly, or self-proclaimed, or unsuitable, and the name of a Canadian rapper. A very flexible term apparently. HiLo48 (talk) 04:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Saying "so-called" is the verbal way of indicating scare quotes, for the purpose Travatore mentions, to imply doubt or reserve on part of the speaker. μηδείς (talk) 05:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the phrase "so-called" undermines the validity of that to which it is applied. Bus stop (talk) 05:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Like "my so-called life". :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My so-called life consists of matter and energy. On a cellular level there is a degree of self-replication. Bus stop (talk) 23:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Medeis, your arrogance, and ignorance, astounds me at times. I know you're a well educated person, with diverse interests, and I'm glad that the Kennett curse is now one of them, but why do you have to keep renaming this thread? I merely used the curse as a usage example of the real topic here. (Jack has now given us another example above.) It would also be nice if you could get the name correct. It's NOT "Kennett's curse". It's the Kennett curse. Given your obvious obsession with it, I'll leave it there now, but I will say again that the curse was never intended to be even part of the subject here. HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing out the spelling error. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Digression — Robert A. Heinlein is in my top-10 list of favorite authors from all genres and eras combined, but he had a few annoying little tics. One of them was that he would always write soi-disant instead of "so-called". Made very little sense to me, given that the French language was otherwise hardly mentioned in his enormous body of work (there is a passing reference in The Number of the Beast). --Trovatore (talk) 08:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe "so-called" is not just equivalent to scare quotes but to quotes tous courts. If someone says "I just had an encounter with so-called British justice", they obviously have no confidence that there is such a thing as British justice. But if they say "Playground games included the so-called British Bulldog", that just means they weren't sure that this was the universal name of that game. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The funniest use of "so called" I ever heard was a music journalist referring to "Bob Dylan's so-called motorcycle accident". I thought, maybe it's a matter of perspective. Maybe the motorcycle thinks it had a Bob Dylan accident. Yeah, I know, rotfl and all that. On the topic, which I think has been answered, it's pretty normal for words and expressions to move around when there's an existing expression, and something that needs to be expressed. The biggest general one in recent times is the use of the word "irony" to refer to situations that involve e.g. some kind of poetic justice. In the case of the OP's question, it is merely an amusing fact that the Kennett curse cannot exist under some other name, so it's either the Kennett curse, or nothing at all. It merely shows the imperfections of language. It is probably similar to the way we say "it" as an artificial subject, as in "it's raining today." There is no "it" to be raining, but we imagine such a thing. Likewise, we are probably just pretending we could call the Kennett curse by some other name, when the real problem is that there is no such thing as the curse itself. Language just meets an obstruction when we talk about stuff that isn't there. Good grief I waffle sometimes. But I think the question was answered, so I added some reasonably constructive waffle. IBE (talk) 06:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

patron vs. matron

The feminine word for patron is patroness. So, what's the masculine equivalent for matron? Patron? Sneazy (talk) 04:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In some contexts, a male matron is still a matron. See Matron: The nursing branches of the British Armed Forces have never abandoned the term "Matron", and it is used for male as well as female officers, usually holding the rank of Major (or equivalent) or above. It was formerly used as an actual rank in the nursing services. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of the Phrase: "to have reservations about"

What does it mean "to have reservations about"?
Can you say "to have reservations for", or is it clearly "to have reservations about"?
What does this phrase come from? Is this originally an English phrase or a non-English phrase transliterated into English?
How do you use this properly in a sentence? "We know that you have reservations for us." or "We know that you have reservations about us."
How old is this phrase?
When did this phrase first appear in the English language?
How common is this phrase?

Sneazy (talk) 18:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You can see the Google Ngram viewer results at this page. That shows the history but not the origin.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I removed "to have" from the search, in order to allow for different inflections of "have" ("has", "had", "having") and for modifiers of "reservations" ("any", "no", "some", "our", "their", "your", "troubling", "vexing").

—Wavelength (talk) 18:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You might use the phrase "We know that you have reservations for us" when talking to a hotel or restaurant where you have previously booked a room or table. "We know that you have reservations about us" would be used when talking to a person who doesn't really like you and has doubts about what you want to achieve. So context is everything here. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The fourth definition of "reservation" at wikt:reservation is "A limiting qualification (often used in the plural)." The usage example given is "I have reservations about your intentions."

—Wavelength (talk) 18:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes it's shortened to just "I have reservations", and "about this/it" is understood. This is good fodder for puns, such as the King of Id and the Duke going to a restaurant, to be greeted by a haughty maitre d', who asks "Do you have reservations?", and the King replies "Yes, obviously, but when you're as hungry as we are, you throw caution to the winds". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Probably a very old joke idea. Like a bumper sticker I recall from a 1970s election, with an American Indian figure and the slogan, "We have no vote, but many reservations." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To reserve something is to hold it back or keep it.[2] So it makes sense to say something like, "I am holding back from endorsing that candidate" or whatever. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This might be off-topic but it occurs to me that "having reservations" is judgmental in that it involves a negative evaluation, but that the phrase "reserving judgement" involves no present evaluation at all. I find for instance "reserve judgement: delay the process of judging or giving one’s opinion: she said she would reserve judgement until next week." Bus stop (talk) 03:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's another variant on keeping or holding back on something. And as a practical matter, both reserving judgment about something and having reservations about something are both examples of something being held back: judgment vs. approval. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oaths and minced oaths, not oats and minced oats

Are oaths supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing?
1.(a.) A solemn, formal declaration or promise to fulfill a pledge, often calling on God, a god, or a sacred object as witness.
(b.) The words or formula of such a declaration or promise.
(c.) Something declared or promised.
2. An irreverent or blasphemous use of the name of God or something held sacred.
3. An imprecation; a curse.

The first definition tells me that it's supposed to be a good thing; the second and third definitions tell me that it's a bad thing. How did this come to be? I was looking up the idiom "By Jove" here. I believe that the best fit for the definition of oath under "by Jove" would be the first definition. I am not aware of anyone who will perceive that the usage of the name "Jupiter" so liberally would be considered blasphemy. Sneazy (talk) 22:14, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How precisely it came to be is probably unknowable. The Oxford English Dictionary shows citations for both positive and negative uses right back to the beginnings of English (i.e. the 1200s): "A solemn or formal declaration invoking God (or a god, or other object of reverence) as witness to the truth of a statement" vs. "A casual or careless appeal invoking God (or something sacred) in asseveration or imprecation, without intent of reverence ... a profane or blasphemous utterance; a curse.". Presumably they both originally had the same form - an appeal to God - and the separate meanings split off from that definition (sincere appeals vs. blasphemous non-sincere ones). Gordonofcartoon (talk) 22:23, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In my head, I imagine a scene in which a person cries out, "I swear to God that I am not guilty of the crime. Let God be my judge!" and then another person replies, "Silence! You lie! You think that you really are invoking God to defend you? Ha! I'd say that's a blasphemous use of God's name! So, even if you are not guilty of this crime, you will be guilty of blasphemy!" Sneazy (talk) 22:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yup - that is at the root of it. King James Bible. James 5:12 "But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation." AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I should point out that's actually the ESV translation - the AV text is "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.". Not a significant difference in this case. Tevildo (talk) 23:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. I think I had two tabs open, and copied the wrong one. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are some times when I wonder if native English speakers practically have memorized all the verses from the King James Bible, so they know all the verses by heart and return to them for reference in whatever context that one can think of. Sneazy (talk) 00:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It has been argued that the King James Bible, along with Shakespeare, has played a large part in the creation of modern English. I had the dubious privilege of attending a Church of England primary school, which probably added a little to my biblical knowledge, even as it turned me into an avowed atheist. As a result, while I don't believe in God, I'm inclined to think that if He does exist, he probably speaks in broad Scots - to get the best out of the King James, it needs to be read aloud, in the accent of the sponsor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

God does not approve of the Scottish culture. In fact, one of His famous Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not kilt." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Although the kilt hadn't been invented when King James sponsored the AV translation.Itsmejudith (talk) 07:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He was being proactive. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The latest cite in the OED for "kilt" as the past participle of "kill" is from 1824, but the form is occasionally still seen in UK dialect. Dbfirs 15:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A corollary to Sneazy's anecdote; a man in the dock is asked if he has anything to say before sentencing. He cries out; "As God is my judge, I'm innocent!" The judge replies; "He's not, I am, you're not, five years." Alansplodge (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC) Is it good or bad to spread your wild oaths? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

July 8

Is Ian McShane rhotic?

The actor Ian McShane is a native of Blackburn, Lancashire. In all the roles I have seen him in, his speech has been rhotic. Is that his native accent? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be characteristic of Blackburn. There are some interviews on YouTube, and his current accent sounds RP English with mild elements of Northern English and trans-Atlantic (he's spent time in America). I'm not hearing rhotic: in this video he definitely pronounces "doctor", "character" and "Gimbert" non-rhotically. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 04:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, that's really nothing like a Blackburn accent. You can read about the Lancashire dialect and accent in our article. I had hoped to be able to find a more typical Blackburn accent on YouTube but I'm struggling. However, try this. The man in the overalls and flat cap is Fred Dibnah, who has a particularly strong Bolton accent. Some of the other men in the video also have typical Lancashire accents. Note, however, that there is quite a large amount of variation in accent in quite small areas of Lancashire - a Blackburn accent will sound quite different to a Bolton one - but the Bolton accent is closer to a Blackburn accent than Ian McShane's, who has obviously had a long course of elocution lessons. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What is the Japanese in the sentence?

What is the full Japanese sentence in this page in this book? I captured "それらには?え(ば or ぱ)南ア国内におケろ「日本人会」（The Nippon Club of South Africa）や「日本人学校」（Japanese School of Johannesburg）や日[...]" but I can't get all of the characters, and they are hard to read.

I'm quoting a sentence for the article Japanese School of Johannesburg.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 04:07, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"それらには例えば南ア国内における「日本人会」(The Nippon Club of South Africa)や「日本人学校」(Japanese School of Johannesburg)や日[...]". --Kusunose 16:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 17:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Books entirely in IPA

Are there books in English or other languages printed entirely in the International Phonetic Alphabet? I've seen some time ago some children's English books in the IPA (as I can hardly remember these were Winnie the Pooh or Alice in Wonderland or something) but now I can't find them.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you certain that those children's books were not in the Initial Teaching Alphabet (ITA)?

—Wavelength (talk) 04:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not. These were freshly printed, a sort of typographic experiment, with the standard English IPA transcription (maybe slightly simplified, I'm not sure), there were even used capital letters as well as standard punctuation.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:07, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The closest thing I can think of is the journal Le Maître phonétique, which I learned about on this blog post. Lesgles (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Evertype (talk · contribs) is working on an IPA edition of Alice in Wonderland, but I can't find it listed at his company's homepage, so I guess it hasn't been released yet. You could ask him for more details. Winnie-the-Pooh is still under copyright, so you would need permission from Walt Disney to publish that in IPA. Angr (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Walt Disney??86.156.86.12 (talk) 00:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Disney owns the copyright - see this article. Milne sold it to Stephen Slesinger in 1930, and his widow sold it to Disney in 1961. Tevildo (talk) 01:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What in the world would be the point of making readers suffer through the author's choice of vowel allophones? God forbid the Author is from Buffalo NY, or Bayonne NJ. Imagine reading an entire book in a strict notation of Bill Clinton. Ah feel yoah pain. μηδείς (talk) 02:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bingo! Yes, I've just found with Google the post about this book at John Wells's blog. Exactly this I've seen. I'm not sure whether it wasn't at Everson's site and I've seen it at Wells's or Everson later deleted the presentation of the book from his site. Though it seems it is the only book in the English IPA transcription at all.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, there was a curious book entirely written in an IPA predecessor: The essentials of phonetics by Alexander John Ellis. Exactly this was the reason for opening the topic.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You can read text in the Shavian alphabet at http://shavian.weebly.com/index.html.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I knew about this system, but I've never seen any texts in it. Looks like some alien alphabet from space-fiction. I hope it will be used for English in the future. :) --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the Wells blog post, and anyone who expected me to read that RP version of Alice in phonetic IPA would have to pay me more than they would if they wanted me to read it in Spanish. μηδείς (talk) 03:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm preparing an edition of Alice in IPA. Also one in Unifon, in Shavian, in Ewellic, and in Deseret. :-) Shavian and Ewellic are nearly ready for publication; the others are still being edited. -- Evertype·✆ 08:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you want to simplify and rhoticise your transcription? I believe length marks are redundant here. And well, leaving all /r/s will be more convenient for rhotic speakers. Non-rhotickers can simply give up postvocalic /r/s and lengthen previous vowels in their mind while reading.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He probably wants to imitate Lewis Carroll's accent as closely as possible. If he wants to do a book in rhotic IPA, it should be something by an North American or Scottish or Irish author. Also, RP in IPA is well documented and highly standardized so it's comparatively easy to decide what's "right" in RP. Angr (talk) 18:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a phonetic, rather than a phonemic transcription, which would be far less annoying. With practice it would become much easier, but at this point, my reading the phonetic transcription comes out sounding like someone mocking an Englishman who's had a stroke. μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Being fair, it is very common quantitative-qualitative phonemic transcription widely accepted in modern English dictionaries. For learners who acquainted to it this book won't be difficult to read, however it will for English speakers outside of England (or its South-East, strictly speaking). Frankly, I don't clearly understand what for this book is printed. I thought it's an experiment for writing English phonemically instead of its horrible spelling, but it seems it isn't. Learner's dictionary transcription is not so convenient for writing and reading hole books in English, it's a little redundant as I've already said.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is most definitely a phonetic, not a phonemic transcription. A phonemic transcription, if read by an RP speaker would produce the same result, but not if read by a Northerner or an American. μηδείς (talk) 17:57, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Different accents/dialects have different phonemic sets. Caught and court in RP and other non-rhotic accents both has three phonemes, but three and four respectively in GA and rhotics. Some have no /ɔː/, some have no /ʌ/, many have different mergers and splits etc. But still it is possible to write with inter-dialect notation. Everson's version of Alice is in RP phonemic transcription. If it were in phonetic one it will have three allophones of voiceless stops ([p, pʰ, p̚ ]), different degrees of length ([iː iˑ ɪˑ]), much more unstressed vowel allophones etc.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again it is phonetic because he gives specific off-glides of long vowels, rather than just indicating them as long, when all dialects agree on the long vowel phoneme (for example, long 'o' can be /ou/ or /o:/ or /eu/) but differ phonetically in how they express it. As for aspiration, it's pretty much the same everywhere, so he doesn't give a narrow transcription of that trait. As for differing rhyme sets in the 'a' vowels, that is easily handled by using more phoneme symbols than may exist in any one dialect, and telling people to ignore the difference between say, /a:/ and /ar/ if they don't have one. (I.e., let them treat those symbols as homophones if they like.) μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not a book, but David Madore's webpage has IPA versions of The Chaos by Gerard Nolst Trenité. Gabbe (talk) 06:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

July 9

apparition vs. appearance

Is the word "apparition" just a fancy term for "appearance"? How does this word come to be? And why are there two nouns for the infinitive verb "to appear"? Below, I use the terms in sentences.

The newspaper claims that there have been UFO apparitions in the neighborhood.
The newspaper claims that there have been UFO appearances in the neighborhood.

Sneazy (talk) 00:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"apparition" is usually used for things that are ghostly, supernatural, etc. 86.146.104.35 (talk) 00:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Such as claimed apparitions of the Virgin Mary, Jesus, etc, which are said to just materialise out of nowhere, and later dematerialise just as mysteriously. Whereas, an entertainer who makes an "appearance" at a shopping mall can be seen quite plainly walking onto the stage. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An apparition is an appearance out of nowhere, an appearance can mean that, or how one looks at the moment. Does the OP lack a dictionary? μηδείς (talk) 02:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am just going to assume that the two terms can be used interchangeably. So far, no one has complained about my usage of the two terms in the two above sentences. Sneazy (talk) 02:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, they can't really be used interchangeably, but "UFO apparitions" will probably fly heh heh heh because UFOs are thought of as being in the same rough category as the supernatural, in spite of the fact that there's nothing inherently supernatural about the notion of an extraterrestrial spacecraft. --Trovatore (talk) 02:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, they can't be used interchangeably in all contexts. See [3] and [4]. I don't think I've heard of a UFO apparition; probably a "sighting". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By all means, I do not see how any of us should prevent the OP from using the terms interchangeably, as he threatens to. μηδείς (talk) 02:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They are not interchangeable,[5] although they come from the same Latin root. Basically "apparition" is a subset of "appearance", as in "unexpected or startling appearance". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall hearing the term "apparition" used for UFO's. The term "sighting" is what I would expect to hear. Although a UFO could be spooky too. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These two nouns (wikt:apparition and wikt:appearance) can be compared with two other nouns (wikt:specter and wikt:spectacle).

—Wavelength (talk) 19:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IPA questions

1. I am from southern England, and I pronounce "fast" as fɑːst, judging by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_for_English. How is the characteristic US pronuncation rendered in IPA?

2. In that table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_for_English, the vowel (+"r") of "north", "born" and "war" is presented as different from that in "force", "boar" and "more". In which version(s) of English is there any difference between those? 86.146.104.35 (talk) 00:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fast is almost universally /fæst/ in the US, but see Northern cities vowel shift and listen to John Goodman's pronunciation of the /æ/ vowel when he does his local as in The Big Lebowski.

According to my mapping of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_for_English, /fæst/ is the way it is pronounced in northern England, but to me that sounds quite distinct from the US pronunciation, so I had discounted that. To me, the US version sounds more like fɛjəst -- but really, as I say. I don't know how to write it. 86.146.104.35 (talk) 02:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In most of northern England (and Wales), the vowel is just /a/ not /æ/. Dbfirs 07:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How can I best understand the the difference between /a/ and /æ/? 86.128.6.65 (talk) 11:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The vowels of trap and cat are phonemically /æ/ in General American and Received Pronunciation. The situation is more complex with /a/. In General American it is the phoneme found in father for those who don't have the cot-caught merger. (For those Americans who don't merge the vowels of hotdog, the first is /a/ and the second is /ɔ/. But those who merge them may say /hatdag/ (Midwestern) or /hɔtdɔg/ (Boston).) The British treat these vowels differently. In strict phonetic transcriptions, most English 'a' vowels are off center from the /a/ found in continental languages. But broadly speaking, in American and British you can think of /æ/ as the vowel of cat, and /a/ as a vowel close to that of father. We have plenty of British here versed in linguistics, they may be better at commenting here than I am. μηδείς (talk) 18:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say, I can't visualise any difference between the vowel in my (southern English) pronunciation of trap or cat and the northern English pronunciation of fast, both of which are quite distinct from my pronunciation of father. 86.128.6.65 (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The vowel in "father" is long (/a:/ in northern English and Australian). /a/ is just the short version of this (as in northern trap, cat and fast) though some older northern dialects do pronounce "father" as /faðə/ (short a) instead of the more general /fa:ðə/. Dbfirs 21:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying the difference is only one of length? Is there no example of /æ/ in RP or British English in general? What dialect does IP 86 speak? μηδείς (talk) 21:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but I was writing about northern English, not RP (or IP 86's accent) which uses /æ/. Whenever I read pronunciations, I mentally convert /æ/ to /a/ for my local pronunciation in which /æ/ would sound foreign. Dbfirs 21:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The girl on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMPgtHIjHQg is from Liverpool (as she says, she does not have a very strong accent compared to some Liverpudlians). At 3:00 she says the words "bath", "grass" and "dance", which in the UK tend to follow the same pattern as "fast". To me, those vowels sound like I say "cat" or "trap" (/æ/), and not much like a short version of how I say "father", so I am still kind of confused. I think I'm quite poor at identifying differences in speech sounds, though, so am I mishearing it? 86.128.6.65 (talk) 23:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scouse has some idiosyncrasies that are not shared by most of the remainder of northern England. I know only the older versions of Scouse, so I can't comment further. ( ... from the linked article: "The Scouse accent of the early 21st century is markedly different in certain respects from that of earlier decades.") Dbfirs 05:53, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That girl is not a scouser at all. She is what we scousers call, a 'woollyback'. I am a scouser, and her accent nowhere near resembles mine. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:48, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Except for a few tell-tales, and her very obvious use of /a/ for /æ/ (e.g., rhyming and with wand), she could almost pass for American, especially with her very Americanized mannerisms. Odd she got the woodlouse question correct (we call them rolly-pollies (with long o/os)) then confused the critter with an earwig. Daddy-long-legs is also the correct American term for a harvestman but her stories about their venom and lifespan are old wives' tales. μηδείς (talk) 02:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To get back to the point, what IPA vowel sound does she use for "bath", "grass" and "dance"? 81.159.105.254 (talk) 12:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

She's using either an /a/, or maybe an /ɑ/ which is a more back version of that vowel. μηδείς (talk) 18:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So it's definitely not /æ/? I don't think my ear can distinguish the difference... 81.159.105.254 (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Northern UK English does not have /æ/. We use /a/ or /ɑ/, as Medeis says. It almost verges on /ʌ/ in some cases. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

English language in England seems to disagree, saying:

In general, Southern English accents are distinguished from Northern English accents primarily by not using the short a in words such as "bath". In the south-east, the broad A is normally used before a /f/, /s/ or /θ/: words such as "cast" and "bath" are pronounced /kɑːst/, /bɑːθ/ rather than /kæst/, /bæθ/. This sometimes occurs before /nd/: it is used in "command" and "demand" but not in "brand" or "grand".

81.159.104.78 (talk) 13:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That section of the article seems to be comparing the south-east with RP. The northern short "a" is /a/ or /ɑ/ as mentioned above. Dbfirs 16:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So what accent do you think it is saying has /kæst/, /bæθ/? 81.159.104.78 (talk) 00:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RP (excluding south-east). (I must listen to Lilibet more carefully!) Dbfirs 06:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to Received_Pronunciation#The_BATH_vowel, there is some debate about whether /bæθ/ etc. can be allowed as an alternative to /ɑː/ in RP. However, when making a general distinction between RP and other varieties of English, it would be very strange to characterise RP as using /bæθ/ etc. It don't think that's what English language in England can be saying. The only interpretation that maks any sense to me is the one I originally assumed, i.e. that northern English uses /bæθ/ etc. 86.146.106.166 (talk) 11:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the /fɛjəst/ you mention is exactly the vowel found in the NCVS I mentioned John Goodman having (more at /fɛəst/ and even higher in some dialects). You will especially notice it since it stands out. Even in my native dialect it is tensed; see especiallyTrap-bath_split#Trap.E2.80.93bath_split re Philadelphia. But the underlying and unmarked American pronunciation is /fæst/; a three-way distinction between /fæst/, /faðər/, /fɔt/ ("fast", "father", "fought"). How those vowels split, shift, and merge will tell you where an American originates. μηδείς (talk) 03:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the 2nd see the map.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As Medeis indicates, there isn't really a single American pronunciation of the vowel in fast. News announcers and educated people speaking carefully will produce something like [æ], but in practice most people pronounce a diphthong or even a triphthong, which varies considerably by region. Marco polo (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Americans might pronounce the a in "fast" different regionally, but they should typically rhyme it with cast, aghast, last, mast, Nast, past, passed, sassed, vast, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those of us who have the Philadelphia version of the trap-bath split do not rhyme the lax vowel in sassed with the tense vowel in the other words you mentioned. μηδείς (talk) 17:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

verb conjugation?

Which of the following is correct, or are both correct, or is it a difference in American and British English?

There have not been any reports..."

There has not been any reports...”
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtamad (talk • contribs) 06:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Verbs must agree in number with their subjects, so it can only be "There have not ...". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly, the waters have been very muddied by people appending "there's" to singular and plural subjects alike. It's not that hard to say "there are" when it's plural, really. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With present-tense "be", "there's" is now almost universally the predominant form in spoken colloquial English – and not surprisingly so, because it's just the final logical consequence of the long-term syntactic reanalysis according to which the word "there", and not the following NP, is really the syntactic subject of the existential construction. But with perfect constructions such as "have been", that trend is nowhere near as strong, and the presence of negation, like in the OP's example, would further reduce the likelihood of a singular form, because it blocks contraction to "there's been". Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"There's not been any reports" sounds perfectly natural to me... Though I'd probably use "There haven't been any reports" if contracting, or "There have not been any reports" if not. MChesterMC (talk) 08:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you asking "What do native speakers do?" or "What do educated native speakers consider correct?"? If you are asking the first question, then you can get away with your second sentence on either side of the Atlantic if you want to sound uneducated, but your first sentence sounds more natural. If you are asking the second question, only your first sentence is considered correct. Marco polo (talk) 16:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I find myself saying things like "There's apples in the fridge" not because I'm uneducated (I'm not) but just because as a rhotic speaker I seem to have a constraint against geminate [ɹ]: *[ðɛɹɹ] is ill-formed, and *[ðɛɹəɹ] is insufficiently contracted as it's more than one syllable, so the optimal output for there're is [ðɛɹz]. But I wouldn't do it before not, because there aren't is available as an option. Angr (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, I do say there're all the time, where I have two syllabic /r/s in a row, which rhymes with how I say error. I had a co-worker once who had the marry-merry-Mary merger. She just about fell out of her seat when she heard me tell a client "/ð'r̩r̩ 'r̩r̩z/ in your order." At first she couldn't figure out what I had said. Instead of "th're're err'rs" with four syllabic /r/s in a row, she insisted I say "their are air ores". I told her to go back to South Dakota. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

However, so as not to confuse the questioner, educated English speakers (other than linguists) would consider "There has not been any reports" to be grammatically "incorrect". Don't you agree, Angr? I don't think it is fair to questioners who are probably learning English and who ask for a prescriptive judgment of grammar to respond that a usage is correct because some native speakers produce it, when we know full well that an English-language learner adopting that usage will be found amiss by educated native speakers who aren't linguists. Marco polo (talk) 18:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree: "There has not been any reports" is not standard English and I would not recommend a learner to use it in either speech or writing. But don't be surprised if you hear native speakers say something similar anyway. (I do think it's important for learners to learn the standard language, but it's also important for them to be aware of things they may hear from native speakers that they probably shouldn't imitate, at least at first.) Angr (talk) 18:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. It's probably not a good idea to get into designations like "educated", which carry classist/elitist connotations. "Standard" vs "non-standard" (i.e. the way it's usually said) is more to the point - and "There has not been any reports" is non-standard, both from descriptive and prescriptive viewpoints. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 00:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

/ʌ/ for the English Northerners

I know that in the north of England there is no /ʌ/, but if Northerners want to speak or imitate RP, what vowel will they produce? Does this difficult for them? Does they substitute it for a vowel known and accustomed to them?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a Southerner, so I can and do say strut, mud, dull and gun, but when Northerners try to imitate my speech they generally substitute /æ/. To them I apparently pronounce buck (as in a male deer) and back as the same, whereas I hear them pronounce buck and book as the same (except for some Northerners (or possibly north-midlanders) from around Stoke, who pronounce book and cookie with a long 'oo', as in 'hoot'). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If I may just interject as a Northerner - we'd probably transcribe your saying "the back of a buck" as "the beck of a back". The Southern vowels are distinct, just different to the ones we'd use. Tevildo (talk) 22:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Great Vowel Shift hasn't fully happened yet in some parts of the north, and I think I've detected a further shift in some southern pronunciations within my lifetime, though I'm not sure if some are just local affectations or over-corrections by northerners who've moved south. I've heard the word "book" pronounced with four or five different vowels. Dbfirs 23:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As I know their /æ/ is more central-lowered [a~ä]. Then their RP-imitated buck should resemble many continental European accents with buck [bäk], though back is usually [bɛk] there in the Continent and back-buck merger doesn't appear but rather beck-back. Am I right?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

~~Many Northern accents do use the /ʌ/ for words with the "ar", car, part, mart, etc. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)~~[reply]

I've met Northerners who can produce /ʌ/ quite correctly for the purpose of affecting an RP or other Southern-England accent and don't merge it with any of their existing phonemes. Just because a sound isn't part of one's native phoneme inventory doesn't mean one is incapable of learning it. Angr (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't Northern speakers still have /ɘ/ in reduced syllables? How do they say unstressed "a" and "the"? μηδείς (talk) 19:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, some of us northerners, after fifty years of practice, can reproduce /ʌ/ quite correctly when speaking to southerners (to make our speech more easily understood), though I certainly don't use it for "ar" words. I'm not sure whether I use /ɘ/ or a normal schwa (/ə/) for unstressed "a" and "the". Is there anywhere that I can hear the difference? Dbfirs 20:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I meant to use the normal schwa there. I find some of the IPA characters hard to distinguish unless I magnify the screen. μηδείς (talk) 21:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's a relief! I thought you were asking about something too subtle for my hearing to distinguish! Yes, we use the normal schwa. Dbfirs 21:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Q Chris, do you really mean mid back [ʌ]? Isn't their "a" before "r" more low central [ä] quite equal to their cat, bat etc?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are right - I got confused! -- Q Chris (talk) 07:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Help with a French translation

Over at Wiktionary's entry on the French word bernard l'ermite ("hermit crab") I've added the following quote: Il y a un exemple qui me poursuit, sur lequel je reviens le plus volontiers, car je l’estime de nature à prêter grandement à réfléchir : c’est l’exemple du bernard-l’ermite. I translated it "There is an example that pursues me, to which I return all the more willingly because I esteem it for the thoughts it leads me to: this is the example of the hermit crab", but I'm not at all sure that's right. In particular, I'm not at all sure I've understood car je l’estime de nature à prêter grandement à réfléchir correctly. Can anyone help me figure out what it means, please? Angr (talk) 20:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm: something like "There is an example that haunts me (I would choose "haunt" here because the whole text just emits a certain urgency, a reverence to the crab in particular and nature in general), and to which I return most willingly, because I esteem it lends itself to be contemplated upon: this is the example of the hermit crab." I admit my English sounds a bit awkward, but it is an older text I presume. Lectonar (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Lectonar! Yes, the text is from 1932. Angr (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the last part could be translated a bit better, but texts like this do not lend themselves to literal translation....writing style has changed. And: it was nice talking to you here, directly, after such a long time since the meeting in Berlin....

. Lectonar (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would go with the slightly different: There is an example that haunts me, and to which I return most willingly, for I esteem it lends itself to great contemplation: it is the example of the hermit crab. Contemplation could also be reflection. Or you could rework the phrase a bit to use the word pondering, it lends itself greatly to pondering but that sounds a bit awry to me. 64.201.173.145 (talk) 21:06, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, after further consideration, I think that it should be for I deem it lends itself to - esteem is not an appropriate translation here, as "j'estime" means something between "I estimate" and "I esteem" (an esteemed estimate). Deem conveys the meaning well and is of a similar level of language. -The poster generally known as 64.201.173.145 198.84.198.188 (talk) 21:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're right; esteem in that sense is obsolete. I changed it to deem; both you and Lectonar are acknowledged in the page history. Angr (talk) 21:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't "deem" a bit, well, officious? To me, it's equivalent to saying "It is so, because I say so". Whereas, the writer is merely expressing his opinion. Wouldn't "consider" or "believe" be better choices? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deem means to form or hold an opinion - it can also mean to judge, either in the sense of exercising one's judgement, or in some cases to pass a sentence ("I deem you unworthy" can be made to sound pretty final), but that's not the primary meaning of the word. It also has a slightly archaic feel and belongs in the same register as "j'estime", IMHO. I think consider and believe are valid yet poor choices, but there are other valid translations: "I find it lends itself" would be the simplest. I think "deem" gives a similar feel to me in both French and English, so that's why I like it best, but it may be different for others. 198.84.198.188 (talk) 05:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with IP198's reasoning. The original French author had other simpler verb options he chose not to use. μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I deem a majority of two to overrule a majority of one. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

July 10

Arabic help: Bayan School

What is the Arabic in this image? http://www.bayanschool.edu.bh/templates/ja_university/themes/green/images/logo.png

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Madrasat Bayân al-Bahrain, which is the school's name in Arabic. Someone with access to an Arabic font can write it down in Arabic. --Xuxl (talk) 09:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In Arabic it's "مدرسة بيان البحرين". Adam Bishop (talk) 09:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To both of you, thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Urgent Russian translation needed

Grateful for any help https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26523028/Image1.jpg

Moondyne (talk) 07:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lamb shoulder on the bone (square cut) frozen
Made in Australia
Keep frozen. Storage temperature -20 C
Net weight: see the other label
Pack date: see the other label
Company name and address:
Factory number: 572
Expiration date: 12 months since packing
--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, thanks. Moondyne (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aluminium

I use the above spelling with the British (I believe) pronunciation (and it drives people crazy!) I also see it spelled "Aluminum" - is that just the corrosponding spelling for the other pronunciation? Which version(s) are official and where? Thanks! --Yellow1996 (talk) 20:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Aluminium#Etymology. Lectonar (talk) 20:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Spelling.—Wavelength (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so it's just my British favour again; thanks for the info, guys! :) --Yellow1996 (talk) 00:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It could be worse: "Iodine" as Io-DYNE vs. Io-DEEN. "Iron" as EYE-urn vs. EYE-run. etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

o/~You burnt your finger that evening, while my back was turned... Tevildo (talk) 21:52, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that's a seriously obscure oldie. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WHAAOE. Tevildo (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To me - and I think most British speakers "iron" and "ion" are homophones. --ColinFine (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

True - I use the former for both of those. I think how I picked up al-u-min-ium was seeing it spelled like that 'aluminium' in the books I read (usually from the 50's to 80's) and pronouncing it as I saw it spelled. If I saw the 'aluminum' spelling more I probably would be saying al-u-minum. --Yellow1996 (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The slightly twisted history of that metal's name may be of interest.[6] All efforts to standardize its pronunciation have so far been foiled. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then there's "comptroller", which is a corrupted spelling of "controller",[7] and which some say should be pronounced "comptroller" and others say it should be pronounced "controller". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, aren't we all comptrollers at times? ;) --Yellow1996 (talk) 01:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah there was also alumium... hmmm interesting stuff! Thanks, Bugs! :) --Yellow1996 (talk) 01:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was watching for it to say someone tried again, by calling it "aluminiumium", subtly referencing one of the three little maids from school, but I guess they decided that was excessive. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bugs, you're probably old enough to recall the TV shows The Alcoa Hour and Alcoa Theatre, on which, as I recall, the commercials used to mention the company's Canadian affiliate Aluminium Limited. To the best of my knowledge, that was my first exposure to the British spelling of aluminum. Deor (talk) 16:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

July 11

Persian help and Arabic help: Titles of HISD documents

What is the Persian title of the following document? http://web.archive.org/web/20120329033744/http://www.houstonisd.org/Multilingual/Home/Parent%20Resources/Parent%20Guidebooks/ParentGuideFarsi.pdf

What is the Arabic title of the following? http://web.archive.org/web/20120229144332/http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For your first link, I found wikt:دفتر (notebook, office) and wikt:چه (because, what?) and wikt:رانندگی (driving) and wikt:أشياء (things, objects) and wikt:دانش (knowledge) and wikt:امتحان (examination) and wikt:زبان (tongue, language) and wikt:انگلیسی (English).

—Wavelength (talk) 00:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC) and 00:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Persian title is "دفترچه راهنمای اولیاء دانش‌آموزان زبان انگلیسی" meaning "A Manual for English Learners' Parents". The Arabic title is "مرحبآ بکم فی ادارة هیوستون التعلیمیة المستقلة" and the second line "کیف یمکننا مساعدتکم؟". ‍‍‍‍Omidinist (talk) 03:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! One thing I forgot: What is the Persian title of http://web.archive.org/web/20120229144332/http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf ? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. It is "به مدارس مستقل منطقه‌ای هیوستون خوش آمدید. چه کمکی‌ میتوانیم به شما بکنیم؟". Omidinist (talk) 04:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again :) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Translating Japanese

I'm lost in translation. So, is it correct to translate "日本大好きセリーヌはトークが冴えてましたね" as "not only loving Japan, Celine also has good knowledge about it"? Thanks a million. Arigatō gozaimasu.--124.122.107.154 (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Celine loves Japan and her talk was fabulous. Oda Mari (talk) 10:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be translated as "Celine loves Japan as well as talking", "Celine loves Japan and is skillful in/good at/keen on talking", or something like that? Thank you once again. --124.120.111.229 (talk) 10:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs) [reply]

??? Has Baseball Bugs relocated to Thailand? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see what's going on. The OP removed the whole thread after it had been answered, and BB restored it so it can be archived. Odd that Sine Bot is attributing the post by Thailand-based IP 124.120.111.229 to BB, though. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're pretty much onto it. The OP had rubbed out the section after he got his question answered, and I undid it since I thought it should go into the archive when the time comes. And because I have autosign turned on, for those occasions when I forget to sign, the bot program tacked my name onto that undo. Strange, but robotically correct, I guess. P.S. I have never, to my knowledge, been to Thailand. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it couldn't. It could be...."Celine's talk was wonderful as she loved (knew) Japan", but I cannot translate it correctly without the context. Oda Mari (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

a Latin neologism please

Hi - I need a Latin term that approximately means 'those who write on cockroaches'; it can be a binomial species type of name, or a single compound word - up to you.

Gratias tibi ago!

Adambrowne666 (talk) 10:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Blattographers (from Latin blatta, "cockroach")? Are you referring to people who write about roaches or people who inscribe writings on roaches? Deor (talk) 10:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Deor - it's the latter - or else it could be people who write with cockroaches (as opposed to writing with pens). Adambrowne666 (talk) 11:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

inblattiscriptores, "those who write on cockroaches". singular: inblattiscriptor (not real Latin words).--Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 17:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Normally the prefix in- assimilates to the following consonant, so I would expect 'imblattiscriptor'. However, I don't think the prefix in- can have this meaning. It can mean 'to the interior' with verbs of motion, but usually it means 'not'. I think 'blattiscriptor' is the best you'll get, though that is vague about whether the writing is on cockroaches, about cockroaches or even formed out of cockroaches. --ColinFine (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right about the usual assimilation, sorry. But the in- can have the prepositional meaning in nouns at times (e.g., incunabula), and is not always the negation. Rethinking, I believe inscriptor (one who inscribes) is actually attested (and an obvious construction anyway), so maybe "blattinscriptores" would be better. Anyway, again, not real words. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 20:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. blattinscriptores is best. --ColinFine (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks heaps, everyone! So when you say 'not real words' - are you referring to this neologism, or that you're using faux Latin in the making of the neologism? Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am saying that just to mean that it is a neologism for a (more or less) dead language, yes; i.e., that the words do not occur within the corpus of Latin literature. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 23:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks. One more thing - I know I'm pushing it - but can anyone here speak ancient greek? Is it possible to make the equivalent neologism in Greek? Feel free to tell me to get stuffed in your language of choice. Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ἑπισιλφογράφοι episilphographoi, singular: ἑπισιλφογράφος episilphographos; you might Anglicize the plural episilphographers. Sounds kind of nice. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 01:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It does! I love words with the oi suffix. Adambrowne666 (talk) 01:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That must explain why you feel at home among hoi polloi here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice one, Jack.Adambrowne666 (talk) 02:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Word etymology

Etymologically speaking, is there any relationship between the word Russia (or Russian) and the word red (which is rus or russo or something similar, I believe, in some foreign languages)? If so, what's the connection between the people (and/or the nation) and the color red? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, see http://www.etymonline.com/ for all your shopping needs. Red comes from a proper PIE root, *reudh, which leads to rufus and ruber in Latin and erythros in Greek. Russian comes from a Finnic word Ruotsi which meant Swede and referred to the Viking ruling class that founded Kievan Rus. μηδείς (talk) 18:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link. Why do you say "no"? That link that you gave me says: "The word Russian ... [is] perhaps related to the IE root for red, in reference to hair color". (What does "IE" mean?) Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"IE" stands for "Indo-European", the reconstructed common source of most European languages. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, etymonline.com does speculate that the old name of the "Rus'" Scandinavian settlers in Russia might be "perhaps related to the IE root for "red," in reference to hair color", but no further hints as to who proposed such an idea or how common it is. Certainly sounds dubious to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You might also want to check wikt:Ruotsi. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did see the speculation of the word coming from red, but -dh- from *rheudh in Russian would standardly develop into a /d/. There's no way to explain the ess that way except for borrowing. Meanwhile, ruotsi is the consensus view. μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW in Czech (and presumably some other Slavic languages, mutatis mutandis), there is an adjective rusý “red-haired”. This is distinct from rudý “red”, which is the straightforward reflex of *reudh.—Emil J. 16:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, [8] gives quite a few reflexes of *reudh that include an -s- element, such as English rust. [9] explains that as coming from *reudh-s-to-.—Emil J. 16:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oxford ED says in the entry for Russ: "Old Russian Rus′ is usually taken to be < a stem ultimately of early Scandinavian origin + Old Russian -′ , suffix forming collective nouns" [...] "compare Old Swedish roþer rowing, roþrin, roþin ‘administrative subdivision in coastal Eastern Sweden’, and the first element in Old Swedish rodskarl (Swedish roskarl) inhabitant of Roslagen, all < the same Germanic base as row v.¹; perhaps via a Finnic language, compare Finnish Ruotsi Sweden, Ruotsalainen Swede." And from the entry for row v.¹, ultimately: "< the same Indo-European base as Mycenaean Greek e-re-e, Early Irish ráid, Lithuanian irti, all in sense ‘to row’". I suspect Douglas Harper slightly misread the Russ entry. See *erə- (1), *ere-, *er-, *rē- (3) at [10] for Gerhard Köbler's take on the "Indo-European base" just mentioned. If you want more information, please buy [11], mail it to me, and then I'll oh-so-graciously interpret it for you. -Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 03:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly the etymology that Neil Oliver gave in episode two of Vikings (TV documentary series) when he talked about the Vikings exploring the part of the world that is now Russia. Richard Avery (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

take life by the hand

Would you please teach me the meaning of 'take life by the hand' in the following sentence. "By no willing of his own he has been compelled to take life by the hand and go down where there has been little save sorrow and degradation.--As a Realist Sees It, Theodore Dreiser"123.221.54.99 (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)dengen[reply]

That's an odd one. It needs more context. But it sounds like a strange variant on "taking the bull by the horns" or something like that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not clear without context, but the image it conjures for me is of giving reassurance to a timid person who needs to go somewhere they find frightening. by taking their the hand and walking with them. --ColinFine (talk) 00:12, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't sound that odd or unclear to me. As I interpret it, it means he took charge or control of his life. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Clarityfiend. A Google search for that exact phrase brings up 3,550,000 results, including several song lyrics and this blog. I also found "Come take life by the hand. Don't wait, time is short. The Communist party calls upon you to take the future in hand. La vie est a nous. Comrades, come with us." (Cinema engagé: film in the popular front). Alansplodge (talk) 12:28, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The image it conjures for me is of somebody taking a small child by the hand and walking them through a dangerous area. Looie496 (talk) 15:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

July 12

"SDB", what is it

What is a SDB?Curb Chain (talk) 00:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly Silver Dangle Beads. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Silent Dut Beadly". KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:44, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Safe deposit box? I'm reading it as "I decided to throw it in my SDB..." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient English accent

I heard a rumor that the modern day American accent is actually closer to how English people sounded like pre-revolutionary days. Is this true? What is the earliest recording of an English voice? ScienceApe (talk) 16:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean closer than present-day British English, it's true with respect to some pronunciation features but not others – for instance, the fact that most Americans pronounce their "r"s in words like "car" while most British people don't is a conservative feature, as is the fact that they pronounce "dance" with the same vowel as "man", rather than the same vowel as "palm". But then again, the fact that most Americans have the same vowel in "bother" as in "father" is an innovation, and in this respect British English has remained closer to earlier stages. The way these things can be historically reconstructed has little to do with old sound recordings though. Sound recordings have of course only existed since the invention of the phonograph in the 1870s. You can find a lot of information about these issues in various articles listed under {{History of English}}. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In so far as Shakespeare didn't drop his arrs (rhoticism) and he didn't pronounce bath and grass to rhyme with father as they do in England, but with trap and happy as they do in America, some conservative American dialects are closer in some ways to Shakespeare than is Received Pronunciation. But that's a very complicated issue, and most Ameican dialects have developments in their vovel systems (NCVS, cot-caught merger, etc.) that move them far away from Shakespearean era English. Northern dialects in England that retain the arrs and the old vowels are probably much closer than American dialects--or maybe even some Irish speech. Listen to shakespeare in the original. As for earliest voice recording, that was Thomas Edison. μηδείς (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're (the two of you) obfuscating the issue somewhat by talking about Shakespeare in place of the pre-Revolutionary era. There's almost 200 years of difference between the two of those periods, and the English accent changed significantly in that time gap as well as it has between the pre-Revolutionary era and today. To answer Fut.Perf., yes, the modern-day American accent - or rather, the modern New England accent - is closer to the mid-18th Century English accent than the present-day English accent is (speaking in generic terms, as there are some English accents which differ). The generic English accent has in the last two centuries become non-rhotic, for example, whereas the New England accent is still rhotic - this hasn't changed from the above response. The shift from, say, pronouncing "qualities" as "kwa-li-tyes" (Shakespearean) to "kwa-li-tees" happened before the Revolutionary War, however. The video linked - the Kansas Uni one - is interesting, but not an accurate representation of 1760s English pronunciation. It's a source of some curiosity to me, though, that the New England accent (and from what I gather, American accents in general) does not seem to have shifted much in the last 200 years, whereas the English accent altered significantly in many respects. Falastur2 ^Talk 21:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? I certainly wasn't talking about Shakespeare. As for the rest, I'm not sure what you mean by "generic accent", but New England is generally said to be among the non-rhotic areas within the US. And as for "does not seem to have shifted much", as Medeis and I both pointed out, it entirely depends on what areas of the phonology you look at. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:54, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Which particular English accent are you referring to? England had, and still has, a wide a variety of accents. Bazza (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm just going to strike out my answer entirely. It's not worth the effort it would involve to dig myself out of the hole I just made for myself with my careless response. Please accept my apologies here, all. Falastur2 ^Talk 22:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever and Whatsoever

Right now I'm reading The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. One of the things I noticed about his writing style is that he uses "whatever" when I would use "whatsoever." For example (this is just a sentence of my invention): "He paid him no heed whatever for the rest of the voyage." I very rarely see this, and I'm assuming the two words are quivalent when used in this way. But, they wouldn't be if someone said "Whatever!" - they couldn't say "Whatsoever!"? Or could they? Thanks! --Yellow1996 (talk) 16:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tangent comment. This was my favorite series of all time when I was little. I read them into tatters.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionary.com has them as synonyms and I've always thought of them as interchangeable, with whatsoever sounding lightly more formal and maybe emphatic to my ear.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I think they're essentially synonyms (but with whatsoever being slightly stronger) in essentially every situation except the contemporary "I'm ignoring you" idiom.

“

I took a contract to bury the body of blasphemous Bill MacKie
Wherever, whenever, or whatsoever the manner of death he die

”

— Robert W. Service

--Trovatore (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's also the whoever/whosoever and whomever/whomsoever split. Citations exist for words such as howsoever, whensoever and wheresoever. Whyever is usually a misspelling of "why ever", but it can exist as a single word. Whysoever is not unknown but is probably archaic. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...and the wild winds of fortune shall carry me onward, O whithersoever they blow (Man of La Mancha) --Trovatore (talk) 22:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper thithersoever thou goest. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"I'll have whatsoever he's having"? Nonsense! The longer word is usually an adverb, the shorter usually a pronoun. μηδείς (talk) 22:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The OP framed the specific use for emphasizing a negative statement, and whether in that context the words were synonyms – not a comparison of the words for all meanings.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. (In the negative case I would only use whatsoever). μηδείς (talk) 00:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, *you* might, but whatever is perfectly standard in that meaning. --Trovatore (talk) 00:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have heard it, but it's not something I personally would produce as a "competent speaker". Perhaps it's more common in Britain? "I don't like that whatever" sounds unnatural to me. μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That one's bad either way; whatsoever doesn't sound much better. --Trovatore (talk) 00:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of more archaic terms like gotten you'll find in American versus British English. "At all" or "One bit" might be more common than "whatsoever". But the latter still doesn't sound off to me. μηδείς (talk) 01:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't sound good to me. I would accept "I don't like that in any way whatsoever", but in that sentence, replacing whatsoever by whatever seems fine. --Trovatore (talk) 02:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a matter of WP:ENGVAR or even more regional than that. Free Dictionary says American Heritage, Collins and Random House all have separate emphases. We sang the hymn "Whatsoever You Do" in church, but that would only be "whatever you do" in American speech, or at least in my northeastern dialect. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To my (British) eyes, "whatsoever" looks archaic, except as an intensifier with no, none, nothing or nobody. --09:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow - great turnout! (Special thanks to Jack for all those new archaic words to use; seriously, I'm always on the lookout for more!) :) Thanks, everyone! --Yellow1996 (talk) 01:13, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're especially welcome. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC) [reply]

July 13

Correct usage of the word "why" in a sentence?

Is it more correct to say "Here is a list of reasons why..." or "Here is a list of reasons on why..."? Sneazy (talk) 03:11, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The latter is definitely wrong. I think the choice is between "list of reasons why" and "list of reasons that". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give an explanation that justifies your answer? Or are you just speaking from your intuition? Sneazy (talk) 03:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"reasons on why" does get 3.5 million ghits, so it's obviously a newish development that had not yet hit me between the eyes. On the other hand "reasons why" gets 389 million ghits and "reasons that" gets 127 million. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So, you base your justification on popularity? In formal English, no matter how popular double negatives are in sentences, they are incorrect grammatically. I am talking about sentences like this: "I ain't got no money, sir."Sneazy (talk) 04:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Correctness", being an arbitrary standard set by style-gurus with no authority beyond what people choose to ascribe to them, is not going to be reflected in popularity. Current English probably is so reflected. --ColinFine (talk) 09:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Reasons on" (in this context) is extremely peculiar phrasing. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The words "on" and "why" after "reason" are usually unnecessary, as is "because". However, the use of "reason", "why" and "because" together is a well established tautological overlap, and is not illegal. "Ours is not to reason; Ours is but to do or die" doesn't quite work. Also it's worth restating that Google result counts are a meaningless metric.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Google hit counts are Large Random Numbers™. 86.146.106.166 (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Reasons as to why" would also be valid. I can't say that "Reasons on why" is invalid, it's superfluous and unusual, but personally it doesn't trigger my grammatical alarm. 64.201.173.145 (talk) 17:32, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 385: / Line 385: @@
 :::::Agreed. The words "on" and "why" after "reason" are usually unnecessary, as is "because". However, the use of "reason", "why" and "because" together is a well established tautological overlap, and is not illegal. "Ours is not to reason; Ours is but to do or die" doesn't quite work. Also it's worth restating that [http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/google-result-counts-are-a-meaningless-metric.html Google result counts are a meaningless metric].--[[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|<sup>feed me</sup>]] 10:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 ::::Google hit counts are Large Random Numbers{{tm}}. [[Special:Contributions/86.146.106.166|86.146.106.166]] ([[User talk:86.146.106.166|talk]]) 12:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
+:: "Reasons as to why" would also be valid. I can't say that "Reasons on why" is invalid, it's superfluous and unusual, but personally it doesn't trigger my grammatical alarm. [[Special:Contributions/64.201.173.145|64.201.173.145]] ([[User talk:64.201.173.145|talk]]) 17:32, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

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