Talk:Bulgarian language

Controversial section

Bulgarian is closely related to Macedonian, generally recognized as a distinct language, although the prevalent opinion in Bulgaria, to some extent in Greece, and that of certain international linguists including J. Henniger and Michel Malherbe, is that Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language.

I have removed this section per WP:CITE and WP:VERIFY for its controversial content. See arguments above.

I would support something along the lines of:

Bulgarian is closely related to Macedonian recognised by all non-Bulgarian and non-Greek linguists as a distinct standard language. The opinion in Bulgaria and to some extent in Greece is that Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language. This is also the opinion held by linguists international linguists J. Henniger and Michel Malherbe. International linguists, such as, Otto Kronsteiner characterise Macedonian and Bulgarian as being standard forms of the same diasystem.

How can there be no international and two international linguists in the same time? Have you lost your mind? FunkyFly 17:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, if you aren't going to suggest an alternative:

Bulgarian is closely related to Macedonian recognised by all non-Bulgarian and non-Greek linguists, with the exception the two detailed below as a distinct standard language. The opinion in Bulgaria and to some extent in Greece is that Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language. This is also the opinion held by linguists international linguists J. Henniger and Michel Malherbe. International linguists, such as, Otto Kronsteiner characterise Macedonian and Bulgarian as being standard forms of the same diasystem.

And by the way, I don't see where Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words is not used anymore... Yes I realise it is a guideline. But a good one. - FrancisTyers 17:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagre, because it presents a biased view of the problem. You cannot source every single linguist in the world, you only can sample opinions, and it is not fair to claim there are only two in support. With the same success I can claim that 90 or 100 or whatever sources you have still do not constitute a majority. Btw, what's with your bias? FunkyFly 17:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

By "it is not used anymore" I was refering to "some", now substituted with "certain", which according to my understaning of English expresses a smaller quantity. FunkyFly 17:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

My "bias" as you put it is just good linguistics. I remain surprised that there are two people calling themselves linguists who would say "Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language". I am truely astonished. It just is not done. It does not present a biased view of the problem at all. Really I am beginning to doubt you've ever studied linguistics or sociolinguistics at all. Ok, here's a suggestion, how about we take all the linguists I can find say "Macedonian is a separate language", and all the linguists you can find saying "Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language" and we divide your number by my number and multiply it by 100 to get the percentage? I can guarantee it will be below 10%, if I wasted enough time finding names, probably below 1%. Perhaps I could do a survey and get it below 0.1%. The fraction would be miniscule.

On the other hand, provide sources or don't include it. How about this:

Appeal to motive here? FunkyFly 18:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Bulgarian is closely related to Macedonian recognised by all non-Bulgarian and non-Greek linguists who have studied the language, with the exception the two detailed below as a distinct standard language. The opinion in Bulgaria and to some extent in Greece is that Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language. This is also the opinion held by linguists international linguists J. Henniger and Michel Malherbe. International linguists, such as, Otto Kronsteiner characterise Macedonian and Bulgarian as being standard forms of the same diasystem.

With regard to "certain", "some", doesn't matter. We have sources for "two", so two it shall be. Unless you can find more sources instead of continuing this farce. Why don't you want to find sources? I am quite happy to provide a source for anything I add. - FrancisTyers 17:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course you realise we can't do my suggestion because of WP:NOR ;) - FrancisTyers 17:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that is you demand that all sources I find be added as an exception, except this linguist, except that one and so on, which is POV. Now the number is up to three, it can climb more in the future, so I stick to this - certain linguists, without naming. Sources in the reference section.

Bulgarian is closely related to Macedonian, generally recognized as a distinct language, although the prevalent opinion in Bulgaria, to some extent in Greece, and that of certain international linguists is that Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language.

As for your comment about how a serious linguist can consider Macedonian to be Bulgarian dialect - well that just shows that you are full of yourself my dear. FunkyFly 17:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't demand all the sources you list be added as an exception. You have provided two linguists, which is a small enough number to add as an exception. They are an exception. For example, fifteen linguists could not reasonably be added as an exception. Three probably could. But as you have refused to present any sources we will not know. - FrancisTyers 18:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh so you finally name your price :) The magic number of 15. We'll see if we can get there. FunkyFly 18:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That isn't static, if you can find eleven I'll be impressed :) Don't worry, I'm not going to be unreasonable about this. And remember when you are looking for sources... "Macedonian is a literary variant of the Bulgarian language", they must present Macedonian as subordinate to Bulgarian. Doesn't have to be the precise wording, but words to that effect. "Macedonian and Bulgarian are the same language" will not do. - FrancisTyers 18:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• Prof. James F. Clarke
• Prof. Heinrich A.Stammler
• Prof Afanasii Matveevich Selishchev --Komitata 08:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
• Prof. Antony Giza, Poland.
• Prof. Otto Kronsteiner - THE COLLAPSE OF YUGOSLAVIA AND THE FUTURE PROSPECTS OF THE MACEDONIAN LITERARY LANGUAGE:

… Similarly to the case with Moldovan, when the Cyrillic script was introduced to distance it from Roumanian, the Macedonian glossotomists decided to adopt the Serbian alphabet (respectively, orthography) including letters having become more or less a myth , (instead of the Bulgarian Щ, ЖД, as well as the Serbian , .) . The core of the Macedonian alphabet is actually lying in these two letters and their phonetic materialisation. Hence the joke: Macedonian is Bulgarian typed on a Serbian type-writer. Had the Bulgarian orthography been applied to the new language, everyone would take it for Bulgarian (despite the peripheral nature of the basic dialect chosen), just like the dialectally tinged texts by Ludwig Toma and Peter Poseger, which are taken for German ones. …

• K. Misirkov, - "On the Macedonian Matters", Sofia 1903

… I speak bulgarian and I believe that our country is Bulgaria'…

note: K. Misirkov is a bulgarian, however in FYROM (Republic of Macedonia)he is considered to be macedonian, so he "counts", aint he?

• I.Kaliganov - РАЗМЫШЛЕНИЯ О МАКЕДОНСКОМ "СРЕЗЕ" ПАЛЕОБОЛГАРИСТИКИ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.90.0.97 (talk) 15:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Erm, You realise those aren't citations right? A name is not sufficient, I need a reference for where they said it. - FrancisTyers 12:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Common expressions

The common expressions that are in here are so close to croatian is not funny.Is this really bulgarian.Or it should get a mention that this launguage is so closely related to other slavic launguages.--Chaos2501 (talk) 09:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is really Bulgarian. Common expressions are very simmilar in related languages, so no special mentioning is required.

Kostja (talk) 11:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Purpose of Bulgarian words translated section

This is English Wikipedia, so it makes sense to show some sample words and their English translations. From there, why is the article listing equivalents in other languages—even Indonesian? For example, we are told that дърво means tree. Fine. From there, telling us that the Spanish equivalent for tree is árbol and the Indonesian one is pohon is irrelevant, since this isn't an article on How to speak Spanish or Sample Indonesian words. WP:COATRACK applies. I'm planning to remove the extraneous columns, but any comments before I do so? (Yes, I realize they aren't hurting anyone but that isn't the point!) —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering pretty much the same thing when I saw a user adding the words in Indonesian earlier today. Well, I too, think it's quite unnecessary besides maybe the Macedonian and Serbian variants as Bulgarian is quite closely related to the former and to some extend to the latter. --Laveol ^T 20:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, the non-slavic words are no longer there. But I still don't quite see the point of those tables.--Uanfala (talk) 10:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Common expressions?

I'm Bulgarian and I'm not convinced that the first person usually says здравей and the second здрасти. You can start with здрасти just as well. The detailed explanation of "кое си ти" (an obscure expression that you hardly ever hear nowadays) does not belong in the "common phrases" section. The observation about agreement in коя сте вие doesn't either, it should be in the Pronouns section, if not in the main Bulgarian pronouns article. In any case, questions such as "who are you?" are not very "common phrases" at all and sound impolite, I would expect to hear them in the context of trespassing or when you suspect someone to be a thief: "Who are you (and what are you doing here)?" --91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Right. Change "who are you" to "what is your name". —Stephen (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

offical status

offical status is not true...Turkey recognised only Turkish language and Bulgarian language isn't recognised Ukraine...