Talk:Boerboel

Fresh start

Good idea Samir?

To be honest I thought the entry was fine until Van Tucky got involved. It is a bit of a mess now, but all is not lost. I have had no time to contribute for personal and time reasons, but honestly now it seems it will involve too much of that time to contribute effectively, i.e. turn it back into a credible entry, more time than I have to spare. Perhaps it is best left as an imperfect thing.

But for what its worth: The word Boel, The phrase, Boel is not a problem but to be accurate it means the following. This is "bully" in its original English adjectival sense of "fine, excellent," itself from the Dutch "boel," meaning "brother, friend, good fellow" , Afrikaans in the main being derived from Dutch, and us Afrikaaners that gave you this breed of dog, it simply means "farmers best friend" , Boerboel, no more no less.

Hope that helps some Frikkers

Okay I'd like to go over issues with everyone one paragraph at a time. I've protected the page again in the interim. I understand that VanTucky has asked for an RfC, which is a good idea. -- Samir 04:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

RFC response

Howdy! I've come here in response to the RfC - yet I don't see a question directly posed for RfC'ers to respond to. The debate appears to be about how the intro to the article should read, in which case, my only comment at this time is that we should avoid circular references. As such, the use of boer in the explanation of boerboel without defining 'boer' means that the reader likely still doesn't know what it means. It seems that Samir has a suggestion that might address this and other issues, so I would encourage parties to work towards a common solution using his starting point. Have fun! —Mrand ^T-C 18:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The RFC was for a general edit war going on over several issues in the article, including the above intro, images, external links, and the content of the infobox. I urge all responders to stick around and help reach a consensus on all the issues as we go through them, since the fundamental impetus for the continuation of the dispute was a lack of outside participation in the article. VanTucky ^Talk 18:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

• Let's start with the introduction. VanTucky suggests the following:

The Boerboel is a large working molosser-type breed of dog from South Africa. The word boerboel is Afrikaans for "Boer's dog". The Boerboel was developed as a guard dog,and retains strong protective instincts. It is intelligent, dominant and confident by nature.

• Frikkers suggests the following:

The Boerboel is a large working molosser type breed of dog from South Africa. The word boerboel is Afrikaans for "farmer's dog".

"They are obedient, intelligent, self-assured and bred to have an extremely strong guard-dog instinct in a domestic situation. A natural and selective practical breeding ethic has created a very functional working dog, that is very dominant but thrives best in a responsible family environment with correct and careful training where he can put his natural protective instincts into action when required."

• The last is a direct quote from http://www.boerboelclub.co.uk. Let us work for a compromise between these two. First question: is Boerboel Afrikaans for "farmer's dog" or "Boer's dog"? Any references? -- Samir 04:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Not off the top of my head. I'll look tommorrow. The reason I changed it was because Boer has much larger cultural connotation than simply farmer, even though that is the literal translation. Translating as "Boer's dog" gives a much clearer and more informative indication of the dog's origins. VanTucky ^Talk 04:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Could we go with: The word "boerboel" derives from "boer", the Afrikaans word for "farmer"; boerboel thus translates as either "farmer's dog" or "Boer's dog" in Afrikaans. -- Samir 04:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
      • That's acceptable to me. VanTucky ^Talk 18:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Excellent, I shall await Frikkers -- Samir 05:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
          • Though one of the uses of boer (probably the last one, as it is grammatically the most obvious use in the general, not literal, context) needs to be disambiguated with a link. VanTucky ^Talk 07:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
• Okay, no response yet from Frikkers, so we shall move on: The lead should be longer, but I am in agreement that we can create a GFDL-friendly intro without having to directly quote anyone. I also think that the focus of the article should be "The boerboel is..." as opposed to "The boerboel should be...", which connotes a breeder's POV. Finally, I think that we can safely omit references in the lead for now, as long as the same statements are referenced in the body of the article (unless especially controversial; see WP:LEAD).
• VanTucky and Frikkers, what are key points in the body of the article (origin, appearance, registration, characteristics/temperament) that should be in the lead? My amateurish version would be something like this:

The Boerboel is a large working molosser-type breed of dog from South Africa. The word "boerboel" derives from "boer", the Afrikaans word for "farmer"; boerboel thus translates as either "farmer's dog" or "Boer's dog" in Afrikaans. There is a lengthy history of breeding the boerboel in South Africa, where the dog was bred with the purpose of defending the homestead. While it is uncertain from which breeds the dog was originally bred from, it is postulated that the dog derived from interbreeding of indigenous African species with breeds brought from Dutch, French and British settlers. The dog is a heavily built mastiff breed with characteristic facies and a large-for-proportions head, and a height that varies from 64 to 70 centimetres for males, and 59 to 65 centimetres for females. They are obedient and intelligent, and have strong guard-dog instincts, particularly in domestic situations. By nature, the Boerboel is confident and dominant in its environment, but requires human companionship; if left alone for regular extended periods, they can become destructive, reckless and dangerous.

• Please tell me what needs to be added or changed. -- Samir 06:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your general estimations above, here is my version of the intro above (I like the basic format of it mostly).

The Boerboel is a large working molosser breed of dog from South Africa. The word "boerboel" derives from "boer", the Afrikaans word for "farmer"; boerboel thus translates as either "farmer's dog" or "Boer's dog" in Afrikaans. There is a lengthy history of breeding the boerboel in South Africa, where the dog was bred with the purpose of guarding the homestead. While it is uncertain from which breeds the dog originated, it is postulated that the dog derived from interbreeding of indigenous African species with breeds brought from Dutch, French and British settlers. The dog is a heavy mastiff breed with a characteristic black and tan coloration, and a height that varies from 64-70 centimetres for males, and 59-65 for females. They are obedient and intelligent, and have strong territorial instincts, particularly in domestic situations. By nature, the Boerboel is confident and dominant in its environment, but requires human companionship; if left alone for regular extended periods, they can become destructive, reckless and dangerous.

How does that look? VanTucky ^Talk 22:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a good summary to me -- Samir 00:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Small point, but you need to disambiguate either to [[Netherlands|Dutch]], [[France|French]] and [[UK|British]], or to [[Dutch people|Dutch]], [[French people|French]], [[British people|British]]. The choice is yours - both ways are OK, IMO. HeartofaDog (talk • contribs) 10:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture

Okay, we've given it some time on the lead, and Frikkers has been invited to participate in this discussion, but has not. Regardless, let's move on to the next point of contention, which is the picture for the infobox. VanTucky suggests Image:Hunt Hill Boerboels Male.jpg and Frikkers suggests Image:HuntHillBoerboelGunston-6.jpeg. Both are free use. I've placed them below:

• 
  Image:Hunt Hill Boerboels Male.jpg
• Image:HuntHillBoerboelGunston-6.jpeg
  Image:HuntHillBoerboelGunston-6.jpeg

• Comments? -- Samir 04:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
• My objection to the original image (the one at right here) is that is of very poor exposure and definition, as well as having an unsightly colored border. It is simply too substandard an image to use in the lead. From Frikkers previous talk arguments, it is my summary that he felt the image I switched to (at left here) was unsuitable only because it was a dog that did not exemplify the breed standard (I think the comment was: the dog has weak hindquarters). I tried to explain that favoring an image based on an arbitrary breed standard, rather than how well it illustrates the subject, is a violation of NPOV. There are many conflicting standards for breeds, and there is considerable debate among boerboel enthusiasts over the ideal appearance of the breed. There are multiple boerboel associations, each with their own standard. Even if we were to consider this factor, as sometimes happens in breed articles where the standard is, well, fairly standard in acceptance and usage, the first priority is simple photographic quality. As you can also see in the Commons gallery and previous talk, I have tried to suggest over images I found on Flickr, but these were rejected. VanTucky ^Talk 06:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

RfC response

I agree with VanTucky's argument that the picture does not have of a show quality dog, but to be honest, I don't care for either picture. While the picture that we display on the page most certainly doesn't have to be perfect, the one on the left has many shadows which masks coloring and the dog is turned strangely. As VanTucky mentions, the one on the right is lacking in overall quality and I'd add that it doesn't have a high res version available. If push came to shove, I'd probably use the one on the left for the moment, with the intent on finding another one.—Mrand ^T-C 11:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point Mrand.....only there is no such thing as a "show Boerboel", showing in the sense of dog beauty pageant is not done with the Boerboel. The picture on the right is a good picture with just fine quality. However this picture has never been an issue for anyone on any edits???? See edit history, just Van Tucky again???

Frikkers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.246.52.34 (talk) 04:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, per the statements by Mrand, I am not the only who recognizes that the image on the right is unsuitable. VanTucky ^Talk 02:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Picture break

Image:Boerboel.jpg

• How about we move this one into the infobox. Looks like a pretty good representation to me -- Samir 04:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• I can accept that. At least it's better than the image Frikkers wanted, even if it looks a little funny. VanTucky ^Talk 02:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, let's go with that. -- Samir 03:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Disengaging

The article's now been unprotected and I think we've made a good start toward consensus. Let us consider this to be a consensus version up to now, and I will disengage from the process. Hopefully the editors of this page will be able to work through improving the article even further. Cheers -- Samir 03:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Further disruption

I've issued Frikkers (talk · contribs) 4th block following this further image switching against above discussion/consensus, removal of interwikilinks and adding of mispellings. Could other editors look please at some of the addition external links provided in Frikkers' edit to see if any of these were useful.

I've done a little copyediting and sorted out the manually applied numbered references which had no corresponding links in the article itself. David Ruben ^Talk 02:13, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Wow this page has recieved alot of attention and seems to have a few active contributors to it. If you are going to put this much effort into maintaining it and have already reached a concensus on the page you want, then you people should have some citations so it becomes a better wikipedia article. TeePee-20.7 (talk) 04:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Dubious--discuss"

Would whoever placed this tag next to the weight range please explain why so something can be done about it? Exploding Boy (talk) 06:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Boerboel is like one person with a gun he protect the family and he like kids —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.215.212.83 (talk) 16:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

"somewhat improved"

agree with the comments on weight. - also far too wide a spread in my view. Generally acknowlegded weight are from 130lbs to 200lbs but haven't found any reliable sources for this. article still looks much improved from my last view. at leats the refrences to kids feet being chewed off are goneSimonjonesmjb (talk) 05:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

never heard of blsck being acceptable in the breed standardSimonjonesmjb (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2009 (UTC)