Talk:2009 Honduran constitutional crisis

Coup or a legal act?

Can this event be considered as a military coup as the Supreme Court of Honduras ordered (according to the BBC) the Army to remove the president who refused to cancel his illegal referendum and to reappoint the Army Chief as ordered by the same court. I deem that this is not coup but a constitutional removal from office ordered by the Court and executed by the Army. --80.222.253.214 (talk) 17:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The BBC article does not say that the Supreme Court ordered the army to do anything at all. All the article says is, "The Honduran Supreme Court said it had ordered the removal of the president." That doesn't necessarily mean the court wanted the army to do anything at all. Ratemonth (talk) 17:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

After reading a translation from freetranslation.com of http://www.elheraldo.hn/Ediciones/2009/06/28/Noticias/Fuerzas-Armadas-han-actuado-en-base-a-derecho-dice-la-justicia-hondurena I think that perhaps 80.222.253.214 is right; it does appear the court may have given the military some legal authority to do this, but I am not sure exactly what the court approved. Ratemonth (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The Acting President, Roberto Micheletti said that since Zelaya's acts were unconstitutional, the military was defending the Constitution, so I guess it's a legal act and not a coup 200.26.166.6 (talk) 20:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure, the international community was quick to condemn the 'military coup', a was I. But if really the Supreme Court ordered the president's removal and its legal, then there was no coup...then there was a legal removal of the president. I also read some BBC stories about Honduras the last days and it seems that the ousted president wasnt following the Rule of Law. If there is more reliable references about the legal aspect of the sack of the president by the Court, we should replace 'Coup' with 'sacking of the president'. 80.127.58.65 (talk) 20:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Did the Supreme Court have the legal power to remove the president? I know the Congress was preparing to impeach Zelaya. In many countries legally removing an elected leader is done by the legislature, not by the courts. Does anyone know what Honduran law says about this? On the referendum article, someone linked to a copy of the Honduran constitution. Unfortunately I don't read Spanish, so I can't go and look for the answer. The link is http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html if anyone wants to try.Ratemonth (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

If the supreme cout would have had the legal power to remove Zelaya from office then it would not have been nessesary to do it in such "coup styled" way, I mean

1. few hours until a referendum
2. Deport the president (are they not going to judge him)
3. Sorround the presidential recidency with military
4. Do actions againts the ambasadors of other countries.

Well I dont speak Spanish, but there is Google translator... I found in the 'President section' nothing about removal of office. I did found this in the 'Supreme Court section':

ARTICLE 319 .- The Supreme Court shall have the following powers: (...omission by me...) 2. Meet the offenses of both officers and senior officials of the Republic, when Congress has declared the formation of a cause;

I dont know if president is a 'senior official of the republic', but I suppose he is, and Congress did plan to impeach Zelaya. And Zelaya was kinda breaking the law by not following the court orders. About the post above me, I also found it all a bit fast. Normally you would expect a trial. But about the ambassador of Venuzuela that was kidnapped and beaten: all that I found about this was a statement of Hugo Chavez, president of Venuzuela. I do not think that we can have Hugo Chavez as a reliable source for anything, IMHO. (And I am a moderate leftist European, if you are interrested in my political views :)80.127.58.65 (talk) 20:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no question the congress are saying it is not a coup d'etate and therefore the name should be changed to fit our NPOV policy. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 20:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely not a coup, in Ratemonth's link I found that article 239 of the Constitution says:

"El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Designado.

El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos, y quedarán :inhabilitados por diez años para el ejercicio de toda función pública."

In english, that is

"Any citizen who has served in the Executive Power will not be able to be President or Designated

He whom breaks this or proposes it's reform, as well as anyone who supports them directly or undirectly, will be discharged immediatly from their respective charges, and will be disabled for ten :years for the exercise of any public position" 200.26.166.6 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC).

The fact a completely anti-democratic element of their constitution allows them to remove him doesn't change the fact he was removed with military force. Many coup-prone states have introduced laws or articles in their constitutions that essentially authorize coups. A coup doesn't need to be illegal in the country in question.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately the English text given here has a critical error in the translation of the Spanish. It actually says "... will cease immediately to occupy their respective positions and will remain ineligible for 10 years for the exercise of any public function". Note it does NOT say "will be discharged" or "will be disabled", which would imply more directly that someone (e.g. the army) has the power to remove them. Benwing (talk) 22:26, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

A constitution being anti-democratic or having some anti-democratic clause will not make a constitution action becomes a coup. The word "coup" applies to non-democratic governments as well, even the person who made a coup has raise an democratic election later.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 23:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

For one that specifically applies to someone proposing an end to term limits, which is only what his opponents alleged not what actually was being suggested. For another if this was purely a legal action why would they send in military forces to remove him, send him off to Costa Rica, flood the streets with troops, close down media stations, impose a curfew, and arrest everyone loyal to him even if they aren't part of government? Face it, this was a coup d'etat. I find it completely amazing that the absurd objections of a few editors is preventing us from calling a spade a spade.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

President Roberto Micheletti just stated that the Supreme Court and the Congress ordered the military to capture Mel Zelaya. Chupu (talk) 21:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Note that Roberto Micheletti is recently sworn as President. While judges have no authority to decide who may succeed Zelaya, the Congress should have that authority under virtue of rule of law. Of course this practice could be questioned because it is non-democratic.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 02:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's an opinion piece. I keep seeing it called a golpe de estado, which mean coup, in the Spanish media. -- Rico 03:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

This action doesn't fit the dictionary definition of a coup d'etat. The army did not take power, the people who ordered (Supreme Court) the removal of the President neither assumed power themselves nor decided who assumes power, and lastly this was not an inside job. I would also like to mention that, unlike some editors on this page have alleged, there is no violence in the street now, and there has not been any since the army moved on the Presidential residence. I am in contact right now with my family members in Honduras (I'm Honduran), and they tell me the streets of the capital are deserted except for army patrols. Manuel Zelaya has been on CNN proclaiming that the Honduran people are rioting in the streets to get him back. This is simply not true. The majority of us are glad he's gone. Is it really a coup d'etat when the people are backing it? 193.134.242.13 (talk) 09:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey CIA-spooks, don´t get ridiculous. A coup´s a coup. Even if it´s in your favour. Or do you wanna call it a "velvet revolution"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfingstochse (talk • contribs) 11:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Get a dictionary. There was no change of government, the people supported it, it was legally ratified by the Supreme Court beforehand and Congress afterwards, and it was in response to illegal actions by the President who was deposed. The dictionary definition of a coup d'etat contradicts every single one of those points.92.104.255.201 (talk) 11:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

you can't say, "the people" support it, when there is a significant minority against it! More accuracy, pls. Also, pls check the Wikipedia article on coup d'etat. I don't see the contradiction you claim. Gray62 (talk) 15:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on coup d'etat does a shoddy job of defining the term, it only lists three examples (all of which this action in Honduras does NOT conform to). I was thinking more the Merriam-Webster definition of a coup. Look it up. As for your request to qualify my statement regarding "the people," you're right, there is in fact a minority who want him back. We done now?92.104.255.201 (talk) 16:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

How does the Inter-American Democratic Charter affect the legality of this action? VanGrungy (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Legal process

It appears to me that the arrest is a legal process, and the army has only done to enforce an order of law court. The remaining question is, whether the arrest order is constitutional and acceptable under rule of law. This is important. An order of law court should not automatically considered as constitutional, and an arrest with order may be unconstitutional as well if its legal basis is faulty.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 23:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the constitutional justifications come from Article 239, which seems to say that trying to change the constitution to permit re-election results in the immediate cessation of office for the offender, and Article 42, which appears to state that citizenship can be revoked for supporting the continued governance or re-election of an executive. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've translated article 239 in a footnote. Note that it is a general prohibition: ANYONE who tries to reform article 239 "will cease carrying out their office" and is ineligible for any public charge for 10 years. If such a person were anyone but the president, then it's clear enough that the president should fire them; but when that person IS the president, there's no indication of how they are supposed to be removed.

IMO, even if this reading is valid and Zelaya is not president, it is still a coup, as there is no constitutional basis for the army to send him into exile. The supreme court justices may have told the army to do it, but if they did then they were not speaking with the authority of the court, as the supreme court had no official session in which they found Zelaya in violation of article 239. Homunq (talk) 02:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you translate article 42 for us as well? My Spanish sucks, but I beleive Article 42, section 5 says something to the effect that they can revoke citizenship for supporting the re-election of a president. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 04:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm a native Spanish... here is the translation: Article 42:

ARTICLE 42 .- The quality of citizen is lost:

[...]

5. For inciting, encouraging or supporting the continuity or re-election of the President of the Republic.

[...]

In the cases referred to in paragraphs 1) and 2) the declaration of loss of citizenship will file [...]

For the cases of paragraphs 3) and 6) the statement will be made by the Executive Power by a government agreement, and for the cases of subparagraphs 4) and 5) also by governmental agreement, after the sentence handed down by the competent courts. Mercastan (talk) 09:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That is the translation of Article 42. I will not interpret it.

Have in mind that sending someone into exile seems completely out of frame with the process of impeachment. Another thing worth noting is that there's still a LOT of military activity running in the streets, there were people rioting as of a couple of hours ago and a curfew was sound for today and tomorrow by the de facto president. I live in a country that has seen both legal removals and military coups (Argentina), and this is nothing like the former 201.253.68.198 (talk) 02:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You are right that there is some illegal element on the military actions. However, forcing someone who are no longer rightful President to leave his country cannot be a coup. This is illegal, but it cannot be called a coup. The question is, whether the military action to remove the President backed by law court order, whether the law court order constitutional, and whether the order acceptable under the natural concept of rule of law (that is, it is completely possible the law court has staged a coup because it has made an order violating rule of law, and in that case, I call it a coup assisted by army enforcement).--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 04:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Nah, it is still a coup. First, if it quacks like a duck... Second, the Army is not a police force. Third, does the Supreme Court even have the power to "arrest" the president? Some Latin American countries -- like Argentina, my own -- state that elected country officials cannot be arrested while still holding office. They must be first stripped of their office by an act of Congress, which is something that doesn't happen overnight, and also Congress may not act "after the fact", like it did in this case. For democracy to function, no country official can be arrested overnight and expelled from the country without due trial! Finally, historically most military coups seek legitimacy and claim they have the support of some sector of the people (bloodthirsty dictatorships in Chile and Argentina claimed so, for example). Any way you spin it, this is a nasty coup. 190.191.237.21 (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

As an Honduran, I can tell you Argentina's case with los Coloneles and Honduras' case are nothing alike. In cases that involve the protection of the Constitution of Honduras, the army takes responsibility of running everything. This is why the Supreme Court ordered them to remove Zelaya. As for whether the Supreme Court can or cannot arrest him, the constitution does not explain what should be done when it is decided that the President needs to be removed. There is no clause in it that allows for impeachment. Basically, the Supreme Court decided what it thought would be best. Lastly, it can't be a coup when the people support it. If the media tells you it's a duck, it's probably something else. Watch less CNN193.134.242.13 (talk) 10:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, the article he wanted to change is an "articulo petreo," IE. set in stone. Even suggesting that it be changed is an act of treason. The article, which prevents any President from being reelected, was written specifically to prevent autocracies like Chavez's current and Zelaya's intended ones. According to Honduran law, treason against the nation-state falls under military jurisdiction, so the police COULDN'T have arrested him. It was the army's responsibility. Personally, I think Zelaya should be on trial for treason, facing the death penalty as a traitor.92.104.255.201 (talk) 10:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Even though this is just an opinion, the proposed change was fine to me. If Chavez is still in government it is not because he forced himself in but because the Venezuelan population voted for him everytime in a democratic way. I believe the people's got the ultimate power to decide those things and that was what Zelaya was trying to do by conducting a poll on whether there should be a fourth urn. Making the constitution "unchangeble" doesn't seem quite democratic to me neither. Your comments on Zelaya deserving death penalty are really showing who's the facist here. Oh, and try watching independent media, not so much the CNN... The popular support seems to be a lot more on Zelaya's side. Otherwise a curfew wouldn't make any sense to me at all. Neither all the military activity. (edited, I forgot to sign it). Facundo from Argentina 201.253.66.139 (talk) 14:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're an idiot. Nowhere in that post was Zelaya accused of being a fascist. And as for the death penalty, that's the standard sentence for a traitor to the state. Also, as a Honduran, and a member of Mel's party, I can tell you the number of people who want him back in office are a minority, and even his own party regrets his election.92.104.255.201 (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

What,is Chávez too good to hold fraudulent elections every time? Especially when he controls all branches of government,including the electoral office?

190.77.117.50 (talk) 15:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Right, hold onto what I said about Chavez just so that you can pretend I didn't say the other half of the message and simply ignore it. Second, who are you to judge whether those elections are fraudulent? Stop getting your news from CNN buddy, Facundo from Argentina 201.253.66.139 (talk) 15:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

In Honduras, it looks like even proposing reform of term limits results in the cessation of public office. Chances are that when the Supreme Court drafted whatever order they gave to the military, they rules Zelaya was in violation of that article and as such, no longer president. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 05:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that because he violated article 42 Zelaya lost his Honduran citizenship, therefore he had to be deported? ☆ CieloEstrellado 11:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Anyone involved in treasonous acts against the constitution has his or her citizenship revoked and is expelled from the country. I'm assuming that's what will happen to the 150 supporters who threw stones at the army during Zelaya's arrest will face. Quite rightly.92.104.255.201 (talk) 11:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually I accept your "no due trial" arguments and other arguments based on rule of law. I do not accept the arguments based on use of force, because use of force does not necessary means a breach of constitutional order. I must stress that the reasoning (legality) is more important. Some people just want to use to word "coup" to describe an anti-democratic military action, that is plainly wrong to me. --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 05:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Does Honduran law empower the military to arrest a president, whether the president's serving as president violates the constitution? Does the Supreme Court have the power to ask the military to remove a president by force? -- Rico 05:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Own research?

Can we make a argument and decide, as important Wikipedia editors, that we either will or won't call it a "coup", based on arguments like, "I call it a ..."? Are there reliable sources (NY Times, Washington Post) that call it a "coup", or have published that it is not a coup? -- Rico 05:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Coup is a very strong word. It criminalizes the opposing faction. In this case the criminal is the ex-President and not the "coup" conveyers. I suggest avoiding the term coup because of its connotation. Chupu (talk) 05:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you're missing my point entirely. -- Rico 05:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Both the NYT and Washington Post called it a coup. Rsheptak (talk) 05:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Are there reliable sources, of the reliability level of the NY Times or Washington Post, that have published that it is not a "coup"? -- Rico 05:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

NY Times: Honduran President Is Ousted in Coup -- Rico

Washington Post: "The coup was condemned throughout the Americas." -- Honduran Military Ousts President -- Rico 05:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Washington Post: "Chaos erupts after Honduran Coup" [1] Rsheptak (talk) 05:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

In light of Wikipedia policies/guidelines, I disagree with everything you've written here. As Wikipedia editors, we do not avoid strong words just because they're strong. We do not avoid words, based on opinions that they criminalize. If that were true, we'd have to refer to criminals as law-abiding-challenged. We do not determine who the criminal is based on own research or personal opinion. We do not avoid words because they have a connotation. If they're the right words, they are the words we use. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post refer to it as a "coup". -- Rico 06:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with this. As soon as I started to read the discussions, it occured to me that most of the discussions were OT. It doesn't matter whether editors believe this was a legal action. This is also not the place to discuss theories even referencing the constitution etc about whether it was a legal action. The only thing that matters for wikipedia is what the reliable sources say. If the vast majority of reliable sources call it a coup, then so should we. If most haved avoided the term, then so should we. If several sources suggest the military may have acted legally, then we should mention this. If not, then we don't. Nil Einne (talk) 06:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a relevant Wikipedia policy quote:

The Wikipedia neutrality policy does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views such as pseudoscience, the claim that the Earth is flat, or the claim that the Holocaust never occurred. If that were the case, the result would be to legitimize and even promote such claims.

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view

-- Rico 06:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Have someone noted that this event is on going, and the majority of the press (like, NY times, who posted that thousands of protestants went to the streets armed with sticks, which is false) is still on the grey? But, objectively, this was, on the grey side of my country's law, not a coup. It was handled as one, though. He shouldn't have been thrown out of the country, specially not by the military. That's a coup's way. They shouldn't, by any means, shut down the media (we are still not receiving CNN, surely because they were fast to condemn the events). They shouldn't, either, call for a curfew. That's about 4 human rights violations right there. They came up with this obviously fake resignation letter. He was being unlawful. And he was out of the Rule of Law. Law dictated his impeachment, because he was a threat to the Constitution. But then, again, matters were awfully managed. And, yes, according to law, it was the Congress that dictates if a President if out of the Rule of Law, and, if there is no President nor Vice-President (the Constitution establishes three Delegates, but this has fallen in disuse, don't know why; now the sole political charge of Vice-President is used) is present to perform as the Head of the Executive, then the President (understand, speaker) of the Congress shall be signed for the rest of the term. The problem is that law doesn't explicitly recite how is the President impeached... So yesterday's events can't be deemed anti constitutional, this would mean against the Constitution. They would be better described as semiconstitutional.

Lastly, the key players on this, whether you call it "coup" or "impeachment", are hardly a pseudoscienc-y minority. (190.53.202.228 (talk) 09:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC))

NPOV and "reliable" source of viewpoint

I wish to stay away from the discussion of "coup or not". However, I have a deep concern on viewpoint of RicoCorinth over NPOV. Rico is right to say that majority viewpoint and minority viewpoint should not be treated equally. However, he must propose that whether the crisis is a coup is just a matter of viewpoint instead of a matter of fact. If he does not give up the claim that it could be a matter of fact, the extension of NPOV policy is simply manipulation of majority viewpoint.

To write a viewpoint in NPOV style, we cannot say "It is a coup". We have to say "Most USA media (or English using media) says it is a coup" to make it NPOV. I don't think it is true intent of Rico.

To make it a fact of matter, build a consensus. Ask people to say their standpoint (coup or not), the reasons behind their standpoint and ask them tell us what kind of evidence they need to make them think it otherwise. There is always some people who made a belief out of his political interest, or just because they could not master reasoning. That people is willing to give their reasoning, and only this process we can rightful ignore them. Labeling anyone "pseudoscience" merely because of his viewpoint will not work. That is a way only be offensive and bully. --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable compromise. However, make that "Most international media and heads of state call it a coup by the military". I haven't read about a single head of state yet (uh, legal head of state, excluding micheletti, of course) who doesn't call it a coup. And media here in Germany calls it a coup, too. Aand all other media reports I found. Gray62 (talk) 15:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

No misunderstanding, I only support this compromise because there seems to be no consensus in Honduras to call it that way. Otherwise, imho the intenrational opinion is unambigious enough to justify the usage of that word here. Gray62 (talk) 15:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, after checking the definition of coup d'etatin Wikipedia, I'm now against that compromise. We shouldn't support political doublespeak, and propaganda here. This incidents fits the description of a coup, so it should be named as such. Gray62 (talk) 15:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Developments

Tanks? Does Honduras even have any tanks? Do far all I've seen pics of are armoured cars.©Geni 21:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Typical mistake. I was saying they most likely had APCs or IFVs but after looking I'd say they mostly were armored cars. Similar mistakes are made there since they all have turrets of some kind mounted on top.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Alvis Saladins from what I've seen.©Geni 22:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

We do have tanks, though. And, remember, it's normal for undeveloped nations to have weaponry. Perhaps it's that bad priority system that made them undeveloped, aye? Haven't seen them on footage from yesterday, if I find, I will post them here. (190.53.202.228 (talk) 09:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC))

Many sources are calling this a coup - move article back?

Wikipedia is not supposed to avoid any loaded language that's in dispute. It's supposed to base its language on the commonly-accepted language in the sources. I've seen "coup" and "golpe" in a lot of places. I'd support moving this article to 2009 Honduran coup, but I'm not going to do it myself. I'd like to see both sides argued here. Homunq (talk) 03:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I would not suggest changing it until it the constitutionality of the act is determined. I have yet to see one source calling this a coup even address the subject of Honduran law surrounding this matter. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 04:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a court of law. It simply uses the most-commonly-accepted phrase. "Coup" is in the title of the top three hits for Honduras in Google news. Please cite sources calling it anything but a coup. Homunq (talk) 04:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It uses the most commony accepted phrase, unless that phrase jepoardizes the impartial tone of the article. Coup is a very loaded word, and without some source explaining why this is a coup, the term should probably be avoided in the title. The fact that most nations are calling this a coup is already included, as is the dispute that this may have been a constitutional move. Articles that call it a coup but ignore the relevant issues are hardly reliable in determining whether or not this is a coup. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 04:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

A senior Honduran official addressed the subject of Honduran law surrounding this matter.
"... a senior Honduran official ... said the country's Congress had appointed a commission Thursday evening to investigate whether the president's referendum was in line with the constitution. The commission reported back Sunday afternoon that the president had violated the constitution, and the Congress voted to remove him. That procedure is "within the constitution," said the senior official -- although the coup that occurred hours earlier was not, he acknowledged." (emphasis added)[2] -- Rico 08:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with coup is that those in Honduras who havedeposed Zelaya are very much denying it is a coup and we must havea neutral title that embraces both major points of view - that it is a coup and that it isnt't - the current tile does this whereas, IMO, coup does not. We should, of course, present the viewpoint thatit is a coup within the article, just not in its title. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 04:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Right. Keep in mind most military coups deny they are a coup, and claim some form of legitimacy. Name almost any coup in history and you'll notice this ;-) 190.191.237.21 (talk) 04:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a coup, no matter how you try to justify it. There was no legal process under the Honduran constitution; Zelaya was captured by hooded troops who then forceably exiled him without due judicial process. However, I think the title of the article is appropriate...this isn't over yet, so its an ongoing crisis, not just a coup. Rsheptak (talk) 04:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There obviously was some kind of judicial process, because the Supreme Court ordered the military to remove him. The contstitution appears to have some absolutely brutal laws regarding people who try to extend executive power past the allowed term. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 05:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There are clearly two sides to this arguemnt. As wikipedia we should remian neutral between the two. The military have clearly not taken power here. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 05:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Gotta disagree with you Squeakbox. Micheletti spent most of thursday night/friday morning closeted with the military command according to Honduran press reports. And I have to disagree with the user above who thinks there was a process. The court issued a press release claiming there was a court order, but has yet to provide the order itself, either in its press release or on its website. Congress spent most of the day trying to find a justifiable reason for impeaching Zelaya, despite the fact the the Honduran constitution lacks any means for impeaching a sitting president. A court order is not a judicial process, only the start of one. Rsheptak (talk) 05:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree to it is a coup but I think it is important to think what message is delivered by the word "coup". This is about Wiki consensus, and we must to try build consensus whenever dispute is found. This word, in my view, is not about what is right or what is moral. This word is not even about democracy. This word is about constitutional order. We must decide whether constitutional order is breached and who breach that. The word "constitutional order" is not just Constitution of Honduras, but we have some common sense on rule of law which is applicable globally. --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 05:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

We shouldn't accommodate every dispute because there's always someone to dispute something especially when dealing with politics. Whether we go by most commonly used term or the simple nature of this action there is no reason why we shouldn't call this a coup d'etat. The fact there is some provision for removing officials if they propose changing term limits doesn't give them legal cover to detain those people and force them into exile. I mean, they even tendered a phony resignation! How is this not a coup?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I say move the article back. Most criminals claim to have not broken the law. At some point, we give undue weight to a minority viewpoint that is such a minority viewpoint, that it's ridiculous to pay it too much never mind. Zanu-PF says things in Zimbabwe, too. It doesn't mean the rest of the world buys into it. Giving weight to minority viewpoints, in the interests of neutrality, is not to be overemphasized to the extent that we're afraid to call a spade a spade -- not when that's what the reliable sources are calling it. The fact that the military is claiming that they weren't guilty of a coup, because the Supreme Court authorized the coup, can still be discussed in the article. -- Rico 06:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

This is definitely a coup. Just because it may have some popular support doesn't make it any less of one. I haven't seen one media source that hasn't described it as such. --Tocino 06:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Move back to coup. That's what it is.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 07:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

At this point it is much broader than the military booting the Zelaya out of the country. The "coup" is only a part of the events relevant to this article. 71.110.162.192 (talk) 08:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that the justification that every wrongdoer claims otherwise isn't enough for this discussion. The fact is that the whole thing was coupy. But, I do agree with SqueekBox and 71.110.162.192. This is more than just the impeachment/coup. It certainly includes the unconstitutional proceedings before the impeachment/coup, that is, Zelaya's unlawfulness. So, now, in Honduras, both sides are illegal. Nice :( 190.53.202.228 (talk) 09:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Remember that many newspapers, goverments and myself included first learned that the military arrested the president. That sounds like a coup. The newspapers/Reuters/Governments condemd it. Only, after the arrest, the Supreme Court said it ordered it. And after that, news came that Congress removed the president officially from office. Now I really wonder if you can say if this is a coup or just a constitutional/political crisis. We will have to wait what the independent media and governments are saying today about it. There may be some hesitation: some western nations strongly condemned the action by the army; it will be awkward to say suddenly that didnt know all the details and then will not condemn it but ask everyone to be peaceful...80.127.58.65 (talk) 10:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, survey says: coup. But there is some justification for saying that Zelaya's own illegal actions are part of the crisis but not part of the coup. So, I guess the choices are:

• Honduran coup of 2009 ... doesn't cover the lead-up.
• 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis ... better than "political crisis" because it's more specific, but avoids the more common "coup"
• 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis and coup ... wordy.

Homunq (talk) 14:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the second and that we merge the constitutional referendum article. Certainly there is a serious current of opinion that says Mel's actions were illegal and therefore he could not continue as President and this view neeeds to be respected in the title as does the view that it is a coup. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 14:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There can be no serious doubt that a coup was conducted. However, keeping under "political crisis" broadens the scope to include events before and after the coup, which I support, and we should merge in the referendum. (By the way, there's no serious argument that "he could not continue as President" legally; even if the referendum was illegal, simply breaking the law does not mean you automatically stop being President.) <eleland/talkedits> 15:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There's no doubt it was a coup, but there is a serious argument that he could not continue as president. As the article states, article 239 of the constitution could be argued to say that, although it of course does not suggest he be deported in the morning twilight by masked soldiers as communications are cut and his resignation is forged. Homunq (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Right, I think we're in agreement. It's reasonable that the Supreme Court could have come up with some legal process to remove him, possibly under article 239, but they clearly didn't. <eleland/talkedits> 16:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

POV pushing

Just a heads up here. User:Unmentionables is putting in edits such as "The rest of the world cannot tell Hondurans how to run itself" [3], "Hondurans by and large support the ousting of the President" [4], "Every Latin American country is socialist and publicly condemned the removal of the president despite the popular support of the decision by the Honduras' own people" [5]. The only source he has for all of this is an editoral by the Wall Street Journal. User:Allbertos was making similar edits earlier. Both of these users are brand new (their first edits have both come within the past 6 hours and all of their edits are related to this coup). I suspect sockpuppeting. --Tocino 07:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

This is the latest edit by User:Unmentionables: "and perpetuate his reign as it is similar to the method employed by Hugo Chavez in order to establish his fascist rule over Venezuela, and has since been employed by many other Latin American rulers who wished to do the same and are allies of Hugo Chavez." (link here = [6]) --Tocino 07:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you recommend we check and see if they're sock puppets or request full protection of the article? Using an editorial as a source is a clear Wikipedia policy violation, and you may remove it. -- Rico 07:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I would recommend we check to see if they're sockpuppets, but I would be against full protection for now. I would request a background check myself, but it's 2:30 AM here and I am ready to go to bed. I just hope that some editors will be watching this article for similar POV edits, so they can be quickly reverted. --Tocino 07:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, agree with Tocino. If this is full protected now, it would be bad, as it's on going. But, seriously, this guys need to stop putting their opinions and start posting the facts. 190.53.202.228 (talk) 09:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Better to block people than full protection. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 14:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I second that view. If those guys become a problem, block them. But so far, the resulting article seems to be surprisingly reasonable, so don't go to the length of restricting editing yet, pls. Gray62 (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Using op ed as sources

"ALBA bloc leaders' main obsession: indefinite rule" is an op ed. -- Rico 09:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciamento?

A lot of debate seems to be centered on whether or not to call this thing a "coup d'etat." What about calling referring to it as a "pronunciamento?"

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d'état#The_Pronunciamento

..in that the military did not assume control but rather instated another civil government, or at least head of government. Pr0me7heu2 (talk) 09:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That's not really what a "pronunciamiento" is about. A "pronunciamiento" is just an euphemism of coup d'etat used by the coup leaders. ☆ CieloEstrellado 09:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Its still the same thing as a Coup d'état.--86.26.110.119 (talk) 09:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Pls check the Wikipedia article on coup d'etat: "“A coup consists of the infiltration of a small, but critical, segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder”, thus, armed force (either military or paramilitary) is not a defining feature of a coup d’État."! See? It isn't restricted to the military taking over. And in the case at hand, there is also the Supreme Court of Honduras involved, and probably Congress leader Micheletti, too. Gray62 (talk) 15:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Any news on human rights abuse or sign of abolish of furture election?

I am not hinting that there is human rights abuse nor abolish of future election, and I do not think information is available within 2 days or anytime soon. However, I wish editors could pay some attention to this area, and there should be a respectable portion in this crisis once information is available. I think there are some international concern in this area instead of who has won the crisis. --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 10:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

What the acting President said moments after his oath, was that he will pass on the baton to the next President on due and already set moment. That means that as soon as the term ends, he's handing it over. I just hope this doesn't escalate to more. Now, I'm pretty sure he won't retain the office. Not because I trust him (IMHO, the guy is a crook); but because the coup/impeachment was already condemned by virtually everyone, even when Manuel Zelaya was out of order. Imagine is he kept the office? It would be like, "Well, I will still be Presid-" --overthrown. 190.53.202.228 (talk) 10:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, sry, but the November election has already been irrevocally harmed. Cesar Ham, a presidential candidate of a left wing party, has been killed. He most probably wouldn't have had any chance to win, but this sure will influence the results. If the more liberal candidate will lose by a few percentage points, it could very well be that Ham would have made the decisive difference by endorsoing that candidate! Gray62 (talk) 15:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Sry, ignore my point above! Cesar Ham is alive. I apologize for falling for a news hoax. And now excuse me pls while I remove the egg from my face... :-( Gray62 (talk) 15:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

¿IS IT LEGAL TO DEPORT A PRESIDENT WITHOUT A DUE PROCESS, EVEN IN THE EVENT OF ACTING UNLAWFULLY?

I'm following the whole story, and conceding that President Zelaya was about to act unlawfully, I seriously doubt that deporting was a legal action against an unlawful president, as well as dismissing him without any due process, or impeachment, or whatever, before taking such a dramatic measure.

I think this is a coup, and this article should be renamed subsequently.--88.2.216.152 (talk) 10:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Reference error

This article contains an error in the references, shown by a red message in the list, but I do not know how to fix it. Someone help!--DThomsen8 (talk) 11:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

What is this, SOA-pedia?

I've never seen such a blatantly, unabashedly biased hit piece. <eleland/talkedits> 15:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

On whose behalf? ☆ CieloEstrellado 15:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

When I wrote that it was pure pro-coup propaganda. We're fixing it rapidly. <eleland/talkedits> 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

IT IS A COUP

I cannot believe we are even having this debate. It's amazing how much Wikipedia is kowtowing to irrational objections. The notion that because the Supreme Court ordered his removal from office it is therefore not a coup is ridiculous. The Supreme Court is part of the coup as is the Congress. Do you really think they unanimously accepted a phony resignation because they had a free and honest debate? Everyone who has ties to Zelaya is being arrested, media and communications cut off, soldiers policing the street, a curvew imposed, and Zelaya himself sent off into exile. This does not smack of a legal removal and is every bit like a coup. The notion that we won't call it that just because one group involved in the coup can give it legal cover is ridiculous.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's quite preposterous. I'm waiting to hear someone defend this ridiculous "not a coup" viewpoint. <eleland/talkedits> 15:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it just so happens that the entire legally-constituted government is out to get Zelaya, not that Zelaya was abusing his power and disavowing court and Congress decisions.190.77.117.50 (talk) 15:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what I've been trying to say somewhere above, but rather clumsily due to my non-native speaker status. Thanks for putting it all in a very brief and concise way. Facundo from Argentina 201.253.66.139 (talk) 15:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Ofcourse it's not a coup if it's actually legal under the constitution, and it seems to me that one article of it clearly states that anyone seeking to change term limits automatically loses any office they may hold and can't be realected for 10 years afterwards. And who else but the Congress and the Supreme Court can decide what is legal and what is not, there is no higher legal authority then that ? Article title should not have anything about coup in it, although the body can obviously state that's what some sides are calling it.--Helixdq (talk) 15:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It is a coup d'etat when the definition of Wikipedia's own article is applied! I was willing to accept a compromise because there is no consensus ammong Hondurans, but I have changed my mind. We shouldn't allow political doublespeak here. Gray62 (talk) 15:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I really don't see how it matches that article at all. It talks about a small group of military outsting the government, which is apparently not what happened here at all. Can you even speak of a "coup" organized by the entirety of parlament ? --Helixdq (talk) 15:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

-- “A coup consists of the infiltration of a small, but critical, segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder”, thus, armed force (either --military-- or paramilitary) is not a defining feature of a coup d’État. (from the article "Coup d’État") --

"small" ? how exactly was this an infiltration of a small segement of the state apparatus, it seems to me like everybody but a few loyal ministers threw him out

You can clearly see the article says military force is not a defining feature. Let alone the fact that the military force seems quite undeniable (the president was arrested by the military, sent into exile by the military, and now the military are policing the streets under the imposition of a curfew). Facundo from Argentina 201.253.66.139 (talk) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's article on coup d'etat is poor and contradicts itself internally. the only clear definition from that article: "A coup consists of the infiltration of a small, but critical, segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder." we SHOULD be arguing about whether the government was displaced, not about when or how. IF THE GOVERNMENT WAS NOT DISPLACED IT IS NOT A COUP, according to wikipedia's article on coup d'etat. And in a constitutional republic, the president is NOT the government. --RhoOphuichi (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The totallity of the government was deposed. They are already naming a new cabinet. ☆ CieloEstrellado 16:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)