Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 59

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Rewrite and copyedit of Sam & Max

I've just uploaded a full rewrite of Sam & Max. I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could copyedit it for me, as well as post any feedback they may have on the rewrite. Its not the typical video game series article, as its grounded in comics and has a TV series attached to it, so although I've had some feedback while I was writing it, I'd appreciate feedback on this end version. -- Sabre (talk) 15:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Just as a note (and in general for LucasArts games) there's a new book, "Rogue Leaders" that includes much of LucasArts games division ([1]). This might help for this article. --MASEM 18:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd nominate it for GA and let any further comments help bolster that push in the meantime, there's nothing there which should stop it sailing through. Someoneanother 00:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Aye, I'm just waiting for one of my two current GAN's to be reviewed, then I'll shove it up. I don't like clogging the system with more than two GAN's from me at a time. -- Sabre (talk) 00:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

A-Class priority

I think that the A-Class priority should be lower than GA. It's rarely used, and it's odd to have a split between B and A with GA. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

GA and A are intended to be independent of each other though. An article that's ranked A can still be a GA. In addition so many other projects make use of A like this one: reducing it's weight on the system would result in confusion with the templates for subjects that fall under multiple projects.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, they are independent. A-class is project-specific. Gary King (talk) 01:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The question is, though, will it be used any more if this is done? The existing sub-GA classes seem adequate enough to me. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 02:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

A-class seems less strict, and yet it's treated as meaning an article is better than GA class. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Is A-class even used for WP:VG? If not, then there is no point to this discussion. Gary King (talk) 02:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It is, actually. Many projects use A-class, just not many go through the process of requesting an A-class assessment for an article over just making the leap to FA-class. It's actually more restrictive than GA too when you think about it: at least two editors are required for A, while only one is needed for GA.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

A-class serves its purpose of denoting an article that's complete in structure, referencing and content, bar minor issues or foreseeable stability problems before being sent to GA or FA. Its not a competitive rating to GA. They are given separately, through different processes and for different reasons. -- Sabre (talk) 02:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Only 21 articles out of 21458 in WP:VG are A-class, so I wouldn't really consider it a class that's "in use". Considering the fairly low number of A-class articles, I'm assuming that the class was not assigned through a formal VG process, like they do at WP:MILHIST. Gary King (talk) 02:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Its not properly formal like MILHIST, it just requires two assessors to agree. Not many people out there put things in for assessment any more, thats probably why its not more widespread. Its still active, some were assessed A-class recently. -- Sabre (talk) 02:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that few people adhere to A-class' policies - on Paper Mario TTYD, it was rated A-class without any discussion. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The assessment guideline states that two editors have to agree on promoting an article to A-class for it to pass. Myself and SomeoneAnother both posted in favor of it on the Assessment Request page, which is the policy according to the page and used by other editors. I don't really know where this stuff about requiring a discussion is coming from, but to my understanding (and again, apparently others), it just takes two editors to give a thumbs up and approve the article's quality as such.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

There was never any indication though that this article would be up for A-class assessment. A-class should not be more laid-back of a class than GA class. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

What indication are you really expecting? The Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Assessment/Requests page clearly states "Note that while the formal process for attaining an A-rating is currently not active, it is recommended that at least two assessors agree on rating an article as A-class before declaring it as such."--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Assuming we're gonna keep it around, I agree it should be "lower" than GA / FA. ... even if something can be A and GA at the same time. Randomran (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Knock all(!) 21 of them down to GA-class and retire it. There's very little participation at assessments which is why it's so little-used, and considering Paper Mario is the second article that's had a question mark drawn over it since I supported A-class promotion I'm disinclined to rate any more articles as A. It's a hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth, and no further classes lower or equal to GA are needed, C-class was sorely needed and is now in regular use. If guidance is need on an FA-run then that can be sought via peer-review. Someoneanother 00:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

There are a few potential issues with just dumping it though. The first one being that FA and GA standards have changed significantly as time goes on, to the point many editors have openly questions the current slew of GA articles and the class as having lost significant meaning, especially when you consider in these cases it takes only one editor for a GA. So a buffer between FA and GA ends up a bit more necessary especially considering that even with discussion two editors at least still have to be involved. Secondly this looks more like a case of rather than disagreeing that the target articles are A quality it's disagreed that there was no discussion: a reboot for any undiscussed articles sounds like a better bet and then rework it from there with citable discussion for each one. The last issue is cross-project bits with the class: if one project rates an article A, what's that make the article for the VG project?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm inclined to agree. Even though three articles I worked on are affected by that, I tend to agree that C-class fills in the gap, and we don't have much activity at the assessment department anymore (if you discount GamerPro's regular requests for status promotion on articles I'm pretty sure he doesn't work on either before or after assessment) to properly rate things as A-class. -- Sabre (talk) 00:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The problems with A-class articles stem from the rating's lack of use and the lack of this project's interest in it, which is why this "here's a solution, let's find a problem" discussion began and why complaints are being raised about our (non) system for using the rating. Historically (it seems) this project has been about peer-review, we also have a hardcore few contributors who are the ones raising articles to GA+ standards by and large. Because the hardcore don't use A-class, in terms of requesting A-class assessments and participating in the assessment process, it's stuck in limbo. Instead of throwing good money after bad, or trying to twist it into something else based on what other groups of editors use it for, I think it's best to accept that A-class does not serve this project's way of working. Those who really want to get articles past acceptable GA standard can and do seek input from the editors they already know are interested in helping out in such cases, skipping A-class altogether. Other editors, the vast majority, struggle to get articles to B-class, which is no mean feat for anyone inexperienced, non-academic (me) or short on time. Other projects' ratings do not affect ours and shouldn't be allowed to, the chances of one project holding a more in-depth A-class review of an article in VG-space is minimal, and even if that was the case it doesn't hurt anyone to leave our rating at B or GA. Someoneanother 03:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, after reading through the thread, I'm a bit confused. What is the issue here? Is the current A-class assessment process excessively flawed? Do we want to get rid of the whole class for VG articles all together? Are the current A-class articles undeserving of their rating? There seem to have been some things brought up that never got answered/discussed to a conclusion before moving on. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC))

I'd support getting rid of it altogether, since its usage isn't clear, and seems kind of redundant. (I'm not sure there is a real use for it. But if there is, then we haven't been practicing it.) That said, if we keep it around, it should be below the two "honorary" statuses -- GA and FA. Putting it between them is kind of confusing and counter-intuitive. Randomran (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Start lengthy rant/discussion/thoughts/whatever- Did a bit of reading and found out some things that may clear a few things up. A-class ratings may be assigned by WikiProjects, but they appear to also be a Wikipedia-wide practice that is simply handled by projects. The Version 1.0 editorial team has written A-Class criteria that describes an A-Class article as an article that "approach the standards for a Featured article (FA), but will typically fall short because of minor style issues. The article may need minor copyedits, but it should be comprehensive, accurate, well-sourced, and reasonably well-written." (This is why I assume it's placed between FA and GA, and we should maintain this placement.)

That being said, I don't think we should abandon A-class for the VG project. As a WikiProject with an assessment department, we've agreed to assess articles using the Wikipedia-wide scale, which includes the A-class. However some tweaking to our process may be in order. Since we do not have a formal A-class review process, we should be following something similar to the Basic method on the A-Class criteria. The Assessment page can be the starting point for the process, but a section should be started on the article's talk page to determine if A-class is appropriate. The discussion should be conducted among two uninvolved editors (the assessors) with major contributors answering any questions or issues brought up by the two assessors. The whole section can be comprised of anything from a very short approval to a few days of back and forth discussion.

On aside note, it sounds like this issue stems from the major contributors at the Assessment department lacking participation from the rest of the Project. Do we have any volunteers willing to help lighten the load? Anything from a few assessments here and there to a regular assessor; every little bit helps. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 17:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC))

Flickr photo upload clarification

I just need some clarification on uploading a photo I found on Flickr. This is primarily to make sure I'm doing this right, as I've not had much experience with free images. I came across this photo, which is labelled as "some rights reserved". Its not the best image for the subject on Flickr—others had Michael Stemmle and Steve Purcell in, which would obviously have encyclopedic brownie points—but its the only one I've found meaning I may be able to avoid working out how Flickr works to contact copyright holders who reserved all rights. The image is licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0, which according to this is ok for use. So I should be able to upload it with {{Cc-by-sa-2.0}}, make a point of noting the author on the image page and its fine? -- Sabre (talk) 12:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, writing it out made it make sense for me, so I uploaded it to Commons here. If anyone can see any problems, please let me know. -- Sabre (talk) 12:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Everything seems to be fine. It's such a shame that there are so few images with those licenses. Oh well... The Prince (talk) 13:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

So some person over at Commons has decided to delete the image unilaterally, despite its free license and the fact it had already been reviewed and approved. His argument claimed that I can't upload it as it portrays a copyrighted character in some form, despite the fact we have entire categories full of similar images for both video games (Lara Croft and Master Chief) and in various other areas of Commons, all with similar licenses and sources. Is there any way I can appeal this? I'd really appreciate some help from regular Commons users here, this seems to be something of a double-standard considering all the other images available on Commons of a similar nature. -- Sabre (talk) 14:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you talk to image people such as User:Elcobbola and then bring it to commons help. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I've contacted both Elcobbola and Jacoplane, hopefully I can get to the bottom of this. -- Sabre (talk) 17:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Help needed with discussion about an FA

I could use another voice or two at Talk:The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. Eisai Dekisugi is making some changes that in my opinion negatively impact the neutrality of the article. He refuses to follow WP:BRD, claiming that my reversion of his changes is the BOLD part of BRD and not his original changes to this article, even though no one else has supported him on the talk page so far and my version of the article passed FAC and FAR successfully. At this point, it's mostly me and him going back and forth and is not productive. Any additional voices in this discussion would be very welcome. Pagrashtak 14:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

MobyGames ranking

Should the MobyGames aggregate scores be included in articles? I think Game Rankings and Metacritic is plenty, and I don't see the need for MG. I'm having a dispute at Mario Kart Wii about this matter. Any thoughts? The Prince (talk) 02:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

They do tackle some sources that GR notably does not, namely many foreign magazines. On the other hand though, more than two aggregate scores is unnecessary easily over singular reviews of a subject.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia is not owned by CBS Interactive, so we need not include game rankings, and I don't see the need for GR. Their selection of reviews is a bit pointless.--Kukule (talk) 04:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The whole point of using Game Rankings and MetaCritic is to give a general idea to a reader of what critical reaction was; specific reviews are then used as specific examples of the reviewers and their opinions of the game. It's not like we're citing them for specific examples of the game like we do with other reviewers, just the overall view of critics. As far as I go, I follow the VG sources page. And that page tells me that those two sites are reliable for articles; I really don't think it matters too much who owns those sites. -- Nomader ^(Talk) 05:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

MobyGames has been a touchy subject on here before. Given that it is not owned by an company that practices some kind of oversight, I've always been inclined to avoid them unless they filled in some gap, like a hard to find source or external link that offers something the article is missing. Basically, if we already have Metacritic and Game Ranking, what do we need the MobyGames score for? Maybe if a specific Moby score included some different foreign scores as Kung Fu Man says, then it'd make sense to use it. But as far as general usage goes, I don't see the need to include it. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:18, 8 December 2008 (UTC))

MobyGames is more comprehensive than Metacritic and Game Rankings. Metacritic and Game Rankings do not have reviews of games for old or minor consoles, but MobyGames has. I don't see the need to include Metacritic and Game Rankings.--Kukule (talk) 18:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

You're right about older games, and a MobyGames aggregate might be a good fit for them. However, if given the choice, I wouldn't use them because Metacritic and Game Rankings satisfy WP:RS better. (Guyinblack25 ^talk)

I agree. In the case of an NES game, or another game system not covered by Game Rankings and/or Metacritic, MobyGames would be an acceptable substitute. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

No. Per its FAQs, MobyScores are compiled with the inclusion of user scores. This is no different than the user-submitted scores of GameSpot, IGN, and Amazon. Including them would be going against the principle of setting professional or expert reviews as the benchmark. MobyRanks could be considered, although I would still say MobyGames has only been referred by reliable sources as only reliable for its ludographies (never has it been used for aggregation scores). Jappalang (talk) 01:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

What? Game Rankings and Metacritic also have user scores. This is no different than the user-submitted scores of GameSpot, IGN, and Amazon. Including them would be going against the principle of setting professional or expert reviews as the benchmark. MobyRanks are professional average scores so they are used in wikipedia.--Kukule (talk) 09:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Please show that Game Rankings and Metacritic aggregate scores are taken from user-submitted scores. Jappalang (talk) 12:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute. I thought the MobyRanks don't factor in user submitted scores. The user-based scores are the MobyScores. Right? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC))

Correct. That is what I was clarifying in my post above (with the bandying of "Moby scores" around, it is better to clarify that MobyGames have two sets of scores). MobyRanks is a new feature by MobyGames after Metacritics and Game Rankings have made their mark in the industry. My objection to MobyRanks is based on its non-usage in the industry (show which reliable sources are using them). Jappalang (talk) 22:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Cards in Pokémon Trading Card Game Set Base Set

Is stuff like this permissible? I'm leaning on it not being so (since I recall similar lists were deleted in the past per WP:NOT#INFO). — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 10:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's the related discussion by the article creator...though does the card game fall under the video game project?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I would say it's tangentially related. It was here or WP:ANIME and I thought here was a bit more relevant. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 11:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Definitely gameguide and fails policy. --MASEM 13:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Even more so with the color coded table which corresponds to element "Green = Grass". Why is this not been listed at AFD? Salavat (talk) 13:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that the article's creator, according to the contribs, the list's edit history, and the block log, we got ourselves a winner — ownership, incivility, and all. MuZemike (talk) 14:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The list looks like something that would best be addressed with an external link in Pokémon Trading Card Game. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC))

Now even more so with the huge image violation from the uploading of the pokemon card logo's, ie the lightening bolt from the electric cards. Salavat (talk) 00:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

So AfD it instead of sitting around and actually discuss it with the guy on the pokemon project talk page why this is a bad idea.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

:::::::First to do it becomes a "pro deleter wiki user!" MuZemike (talk) 01:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Cards in Pokémon Trading Card Game Set Base Set is up. TTN (talk) 01:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

omg, TTN you are such a "pro deleter wiki user!". Shame on you:0 Salavat (talk) 13:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Salavat for the record instead of waiting for someone like TTN, you should have just done the dirty work yourself. All this event did here was to make you appear to be a "wiki troll", for lack of a better term.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

You totally missed the sarcasm there, I think. Look at what MuZemike said 10 hours earlier than Salavat. --Izno (talk) 01:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

For reference, I was referring to this edit. Sorry, I should have provided the diff earlier. MuZemike (talk) 01:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeh that was totally a follow up joke after MuZemike's comment, im hardly a wiki troll, maybe someone with a sense of humour. Salavat (talk) 01:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, mocking someone was inappropriate and something I need to refrain from doing. Sorry, I'll try to be more serious from now on. MuZemike (talk) 02:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguate UMD

Hi. UMD is a disambiguation page with incoming links, and many of its incoming links intend Universal Media Disc. These links need to be changed from [[UMD]] to [[Universal Media Disc|UMD]]. I have changed about 10, and would appreciate your help changing the rest. Thanks! --Una Smith (talk) 17:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. I ran through the pages in Category:PlayStation Portable games using WP:AWB and made about thirty edits. -- クラウド６６８ 23:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! Now the list is down to about 40 articles. Some look like video games that should be in Category:PlayStation Portable games. See list. --Una Smith (talk) 23:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, didn't come to mind that I could use the the what links here page to make the list. I guess if no one will, I will run through it later. -- クラウド６６８ 16:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

FYI- Every article on that list looks like they use UMD as Universal Media Disc, but I'd double check some of the titles to make sure they aren't meant to go to a different UMD on the disambig page. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC))

Request for copyedits and pairs of good eyes on Super Columbine Massacre RPG!

I've been rapidly editing Super Columbine Massacre RPG!, but I think it's more or less complete in terms of sourcing. However given my rapid pace, I'm sure its flow, spelling, and grammar leave much to desire. I would open a peer review at sometime, but I think right now it just needs more general love and attention. If some people can help out, I'd be most appreciative; if you have concerns, leave them on the article's talk page. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Kudos on the interesting article choice. I'll try to copy edit it this week. I think I have a few magazines with some articles that may be able to add a bit more as well. I'll have to dig for them though.

If you do peer review it, don't forget to announce it on WT:MILHIST as I think they'd give some good outside comments. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC))

Good point, thanks for any help :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 16:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Video game list size issues.

Looking at some lists, particularly PSP, Wii, PS3, and 360, are too large. However, with 360 and Wii, I've hit a wall when it comes to removing content, and I cannot imagine any other way besides splitting, which should be a last resort. Comments? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

They are not nessasarily too long for lists. List of Super Nintendo Entertainment System games is still longer.じんない 07:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

But that list is never going to have another new game added. The 360 and Wii will have games added consistently for at least a few more years, and it'll add up. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

But on SNES games, that list needs to be split. There's nothing that can be done anymore that would reduce it enough anymore. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

It does not need to be split. The length is a guideline and some articles cannot be split or condensed below that level. Lists are usually the most common suspects.じんない 07:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

What? I never said it had to be split - in fact, I specifically said it was a last resort. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Basically just try to condense it, if you can't condense it enough, don't split it and leave it as it as 1 list. That's what i'm saying.じんない 08:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, there's no content that I can remove that people won't have issue with - the only content left to remove would be the two release dates, and that's violently opposed to. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Then I would say unless you, or someone else, can figure out a way to restructure the article to use less space, ignore the length size until it reaches somewhere ~400k whereupon almost any some last-gen browsers has issues displaying pages that length. Make a note in the make page or talk page that this article is a list of all [insert console here] games and thus likely to exceed the maximum recommended article size.じんない 08:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)