Talk:United Kingdom

Country?

Sorry but for how long has the UK been a singular country? I swear last time I checked it was a collection of countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.56.188 (talk) 19:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're simply trolling or not, but this is a space to discuss edits, not to ask questions about the subject at hand. Needless to say, it should be fairly obvious to anybody that the UK is a country. --Breadandcheese (talk) 21:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an old and tiresome debate now. I suggest users new and old coming to this issue (whether again or for the first time) ought to be pointed to the old debates in the archives -- Jza84 · (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a fair object of discussion on this page. Sure, we've discussed it before, but it someone wants to revive it, why not?--Gazzster (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course, and they have the right to do so per WP:CCC, but I do think it more than sensible that they at least be aware that this has been discussed, and discussed, and discussed again with each occation leading back to the same consensus. Certainly it would negate need to have to re-argue old points as well as avoid edit wars and the like between two or more users who may not be aware that this issue has been tackled several times before. -- Jza84 · (talk) 23:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we have this 'worn out' discussion at the bottom of the talk-page? GoodDay (talk) 23:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually a refractured version pointing to a full discussion would be better. Benjiboi 01:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've never actually seen this discussion take place, only the discussion be dismissed on the basis that the discussion has already taken place. Was there ever a discussion? How long ago was it? Can we have a link to it from those fortunate enough to have lived at and seen that great and wise time? --sony-youth^pléigh 03:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been involved with a lengthy one once (it may have been at England though, I forget) which agreed with country, but I was specifically pointing to the discussion in the archives (top right) specially prepared under "Country/State debate archives". -- Jza84 · (talk) 03:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

per Missing Information template

I came here trying to find an overview (and maybe a mainarticle link) for the flora and fauna of the U.K., which seems to be completely missing. I don't think that's GA-class work, and it should be included. The plants and animals of the nation are at least as important as climate and geography. VanTucky ^talk 03:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It has been a week now, and no one has responded to this, so I will.

I don't agree with the claim that the lack of flora and fauna coverage makes this less than GA work. I base that on the fact that of articles in Category:Geography and places good articles relating to countries, states, or provinces, more do not have much or any discussion of flora and fauna.

It may be this information should be included. Scotland has this information, but, as far as I can see, England and Wales do not. If flora and fauna are going to be included, perhaps they should be added to the constituent countries' articles and summarized here with "see also" or "main article" links to the relevant sections.

The other option is to ignore the suggestion and remove the template from the article. Does anyone have an opinion. -Rrius (talk) 02:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in a F&F article for the UK, or even a breif (emphasis) section here (or on Geography of the United Kingdom. Of course it would have to be verifiable and MOS compliant, but I for one have no knowledge on the topic in hand. Is there a flora and fauna related Wikiproject we could approach for advice perhaps? -- Jza84 · (talk) 02:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

As I state above Rrius, it's my thought that not even once mentioning the plants and animals that inhabit the UK is a grave mistake. I'm very surprised their isn't an article on this topic already. GA doesn't have to be as long as FA, but it still has to cover all the basic topics in some fashion. As this article stands, kids might think it's palm trees and polar bears. Even if you make individual England and Wales articles, you still need a paragraph with main article links to summarize. VanTucky ^talk 03:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure you read what I wrote. I never took a position on whether the lack of flora and fauna info is a mistake. I challenged your assertion that GA needs flora and fauna after I checked other Category:Geography and places good articles and found that many, if not most, roughly similar articles either barely mentioned the topic or do not mention it at all. You did not say "it was a grave mistake" or "surprising"; you said it made the article less than GA. That may be your opinion, but it does not seem to be the opinion of people assessing these articles. As I said, I took no position on whether it was a mistake ("grave" or otherwise) not to have a section on flora and fauna. I did propose alternatives for how to deal with the issue. If you had more carefully read what I wrote, you would have seen that coupled with my suggestion of handling flora and fauna in the England and Wales articles was a suggestion that those sections be summarized here and links provided back to those sections. Please take the time to read the suggestion next time before criticizing it. -Rrius (talk) 03:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I've reviewed dozens of GA candidates and I know the criteria backwards and forwards. Articles listed as GA aren't the barometer of what is GA, the criteria is. Articles often deteriorate with time, or may not have been reviewed properly to begin with. Besides, it is relative. For a city, state or province flora and fauna isn't a vital subject. For a country like the UK it most definitely is. I wouldn't pass the Russia or Canada article without some mention of their flora and fauna, so I don't think this article should be called GA if it doesn't mention it substantially. All talk aside, if no one adds a section then I'll be filing a reassessment for the article. VanTucky ^talk 05:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I only included state/constituent-country/province level because there were flora-fauna references there, and I did not include cities or regions or the like. Down to business:

(1) This is a serious question and not a dig: is the flora-fauna thing specifically included in the criteria, or is just your opinion that flora and fauna are as among the basic topics that any country article should address?

(2) Is it your position that all the country articles without flora-fauna that are currently listed as GA must have previously had flora-fauna included even if they do not now (including this one)?

(3) Will you be placing the flora-fauna template on the other GA country articles that do not currently have flora-fauna sections and request reassessment for those that do not comply?

(4) If the issue is, as seems clear from your previous comments, so important to you, why don't you add a brief guide to the flora and fauna of the UK?

-Rrius (talk) 06:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) (1) No, the criteria does not get that specific. It is my interpretation. (2) There are no absolutes, what I care about right now is this article. I came here looking for some very basic info, and it was missing. But to answer the question: I don't know. Most reviewers focus on improving what is in articles rather than thinking about what's missing, so it's a distinct possibility that it could be either way. My best guess would be that most GA country articles had or have some mention (if not a section) on flora and fauna. (3) Again, I care about this article. This isn't part of a sweep of all GAs, and doing so after or while I deal with article seems a little pointy to me. (4) Because I don't have source material, I'm working on other things, and I don't know anything about it. It's a problem for me because I came here to learn about it, and it wasn't available. I don't have the time or inclination to add a section right now, but preserving the sanctity of GA is always important to me, thus the mention of delisting. VanTucky ^talk 17:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

don't think it's very relevant to include as the uk is a political entity, not a geographical one. the fauna of northern ireland is different to that of great britain (no snakes in NI for example). the right place would be the Great Britain and Ireland articles. currently the ireland article covers f and f, the great britain one doesn't--Mongreilf (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I now understand that this flora and fauna thing arises solely from your individual belief that a discussion of flora and fauna is so basic as to be necessary for a country article to have a GA rating. Based upon the state of other GA country articles, I am confident that this is not a widely held view. I am also confident that if this article were to fail a reassessment, it would not be the result of a consensus that it lacks flora and fauna treatment.

If a significant amount of time passes with no consensus to the contrary or meaningful action taken, I will remove the missing info template from the article. It is not clear that the information requested is necessary or even relevant.

Having said all that, it is not my intention to discuss this further (aside from defending or explaining myself) until more people have spoken up because the discussion is only useful if more people get involved. -Rrius (talk) 20:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

External Links

Resolved

Propose "Countries within a country" from the Official Website of the British Prime Minister. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 21:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend taking a look at Wikipedia's guide on External links. I'm concerned that that page doesn't quite meet the guide on what should be included. -- Jza84 · (talk) 00:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Financial Treatment of UK Senior Citizens

My wife and I are deeply concerned with regards to the treatment we are getting with the current government pension allowances. Over the last four or five years our annual increases have not covered for the annual increases in our everyday living costs and we are suprised that as a group nothing has been said. We are in our early seventies and have three daughters now in their middle forties. We were brought up from very poor back grounds and have worked hard through our life my wife finished work to bring up the children and I enjoyed a very hard working life both in the UK and abroad. Our three daughters have grown up and become very professional in their jobs for which we are very proud. We have all worked very hard in life and not sponged the authorities for dole or any other allowances. I feel that because we have done everything right and unfortunately was unable to save for a very large personal pension we do struggle to make ends meet and it is gradually getting worse. We see the television and read the daily papers where all these criminals , elegal imigrants and the unemployed who are getting much more money than we will ever get , please tell us if this is fair and why can there be nothing done about it to improve our lives? We are very suprised that Senior Citizens party can not have a greater say in improving life for people like ourselves. We would be interested in your thoughts and look forward to a response. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.37.99 (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok....To the unsigned comment on pensions: Wikipedia is not some kind of Q&A site, nor do we actually have those answers. We're not some political entity that can be relied on as a source for political information. Signed by Scryer_360, who doesn't sign in out of spite for the sign in loading times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.148.162.191 (talk) 18:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Your question about pensions could be posted at Wikipedia:Reference desk but the above poster is correct that this might not be best place to get information along these lines. Benjiboi 11:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I completely sympathise with your situation, and that of all those like you. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is probably not the best medium to use to get answers, support or help, as the website is an encyclopaedia whose main purpose is to provide information. Perhaps I can suggest that you visit another website, such as http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ for petitions or http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/discuss/index.cfm for similar discussions. 86.146.142.35 (talk) 19:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Talk page clean-up please

The talk page is way too long and any old or non-needed discussions should be archived. This benefits editors who want to find out what the current open discussions are as well as users who may have slower internet connections. Please consider tagging items with {{resolved}} for closed discussions and {{stale}} for topics which are no longer of interest to the current editors. All items tagged can then be added into the archives; please start a new archive page if needed as those too should not be terribly lengthy. Benjiboi 09:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Benjiboi 11:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Flora and fauna

With its mild climate and varied soils, the United Kingdom has a diverse pattern of natural vegetation. Originally, oak forests probably covered the lowland, except for the fens and marsh areas, while pine forests and patches of moorland covered the higher or sandy ground. Over the centuries, much of the forest area, especially on the lowlands, was cleared for cultivation. Today only about 9% of the total surface is wooded. Fairly extensive forests remain in east and north Scotland and in southeast England. Oak, elm, ash, and beech are the most common trees in England. Pine and birch are most common in Scotland. Almost all the lowland outside the industrial centers is farmland, with a varied seminatural vegetation of grasses and flowering plants. Wild vegetation consists of the natural flora of woods, fens and marshes, cliffs, chalk downs, and mountain slopes, the most widespread being the heather, grasses, gorse, and bracken of the moorlands.

The fauna is similar to that of northwestern continental Europe, although there are fewer species. Some of the larger mammals—wolf, bear, boar, and reindeer—are extinct, but red and roe deer are protected for sport. Common smaller mammals are foxes, hares, hedgehogs, rabbits, weasels, stoats, shrews, rats, and mice; otters are found in many rivers, and seals frequently appear along the coast. There are few reptiles and amphibians. Roughly 230 species of birds reside in the United Kingdom, and another 200 are migratory. Most numerous are the chaffinch, blackbird, sparrow, and starling. The number of large birds is declining, however, except for game birds—pheasant, partridge, and red grouse—which are protected. With the reclamation of the marshlands, waterfowl are moving to the many bird sanctuaries. The rivers and lakes abound in salmon, trout, perch, pike, roach, dace, and grayling. There are more than 21,000 species of insects.

As an outside observer I'd like to interject that this is a great start to its own article and since the rest of the United Kingdom article is well developed you might best be served by developing Flora and fauna of United Kingdom or similar complete with references. Then other editors can assist in developing that article as well as coming up with a concise summary for this article. Benjiboi 01:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am mostly interested in knowing new things. I think that a sub-topic about the flora and fauna of the United Kingdom should be included in the topic, and if the topic is very diverse, then it should be listed as a separate article. However, the main article should still contain a brief description about the flora and fauna. Thanks. (Raheil 18:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mullahraheil (talk • contribs)

France has outranked the UK as world's 5TH economy

According to the FINANCIAL TIME, the size of the British economy has slipped below that of France for the first time since 1999 thanks to the slide in the value of the pound.

The US, Japan, Germany, China and France all had larger economies than the UK in the third quarter of 2007 – and in 2006.

The figures represented a “political economic cataclysm” for Britain, said Martin Weale, the director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, who noted that the UK government often boasted of Britain’s being the fourth largest economy, and then the fifth largest when China overtook the UK in 2005.

The UK’s demotion to sixth place will put pressure on the government’s reputation for economic competence, particularly as it is Britain’s ancient rival, France, that is moving ahead.

Mr Weale said that, although the change in rank had no immediate effect on British living standards and the UK still had slightly higher gross domestic product per head, the falling exchange rate would crimp income growth compared with overall growth in economic output.

In 2006, the GDP of France was €1,792bn (£1,353bn) compared with £1,304bn for the UK. With sterling worth €1.47 on average in 2006, this put the UK economy comfortably 6.7 per cent ahead of the French economy.

But with sterling’s more than 10 per cent fall against the euro in the past six months to €1.32 to the pound, the UK’s economy in 2008 is now 4 per cent smaller than France.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/abe2ffc4-c08b-11dc-b0b7-0000779fd2ac.html

THANKS TO WIKIPEDIA TO UPDATE ITS DATA !!!

Frederick CARLES-FONT (carlesfjf@yahoo.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.66.9.250 (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2008

I've restored this section as I believe it was added in good faith, though I could be wrong. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 21:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The relative standing of the UK and French economies have interchanged quite a bit in recent years. Probably will continue to do so. All to do with exchange rates doesn't mean a great deal. nethertheless it is factually correct so merci Mr "CARLES-FONT". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.64.125 (talk) 22:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

the UK rank's slip to #6 is available in French in the reliable French newspaper Figaro here. it quotes the Financial Times. Cliché Online (talk) 08:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't use capital letters, we're all capable of reading normal text. That the UK has slipped to sixth place is documented in a very credible source, so I've changed the article to reflect that. As the change took place already in novembre, it's about time to do so. JdeJ (talk) 12:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

novembre eh? Sarah777 (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Commenting on every typo and language mistake on Wikipedia? Nice hobby. JdeJ (talk) 21:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Sarah777 (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Cool, I have to remember how to make that :) Well, you know how it is. The world would be a much happier place if everybody would keep to speaking French and Irish ;) JdeJ (talk) 22:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Why in Gods name did you have to make it seem like an insult to people of UK? (80.42.133.29 (talk) 17:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC))

Economy of the United Kingdom

I don't believe that the United Kingdom's economy has slipped behind France's for any more than while the Pound is currently at a low, which will probably last all of weeks or a month or so. The UK has consistently had a higher GDP growth rate than France over the past several years so it's rather foolish to jump on one particular article published which says the UK's economy fell slightly behind that of France while the Pound is at a current low and take it as the UK's economy is now permanently behind that of France, especially considering the UK's economic growth rate remains higher than France's. Also I couldn't help but notice the sheer numbers who seem to have taken this as fantastic news if you read just above this. Weird, mind you one is French and the other is Irish, enough said. Signsolid (talk) 19:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You may be right or you may be wrong, but speculations are of little interest. If the UK economy outgrows the French, of course the article should be changed to reflec that. May I also ask you to leave people's nationalities out, it is completely irrelevant. JdeJ (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Implying that French or Irish nationality is a negative attribute is neither helpful or courteous. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's not irrelevant to include editors nationalities as many editors are influenced by their nationality. Are your edits not influenced by being French? I noticed from your contributions history that they appear to be so. I don't refute that mine aren't. Besides finding one particular article on the whole of the internet which says the UK's economy has fallen slightly compared to the French economy while the Pound is at a current low seems more speculative to me than using the traditional lists of countries by GDP published by such likes as the World Bank, CIA, International Monetary Fund. Signsolid (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you could cite some sources that assert the claims you make? This would help. The other document is verifiable at this moment in time. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

To begin with, I don't know who this French user you are referring to is. I'm certainly not a French citizen and my nationality is, once again, completely irrelevant. As for your attempt to downplay the source, well, not much to say. It's your own invention that it's "one particular article". I managed to find others in 20 seconds, I merely added the most authorative one. Or are you denying that the Financial Times is a good source for things related to the UK economy? JdeJ (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not deny that the Financial Times is a reliable source but I do dispute that the UK's economy has fallen behind that of France's for any longer than while the Pound has fallen against the Euro. Also this edit reactionary to market forces and since November when the article was published there's no telling where the UK's economy currently stands compared to the French economy considering how much currencies fall and rise against each other every day, and it's likely the week that article was published the Pound was at an unusual low and has since recovered. Signsolid (talk) 19:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:CBALL. So you didn't even bother to read the article? Then you would have known that it was published last Friday, not in november. France overtook the UK in november and I very much doubt the FT would have failed to notice this if it had not still been the case when the article was published five days ago. I must admit that I don't really get your point. All you've done so far is to claim that the edits has been done because of my nationality, that it's not factual despite being sourced in the UK's (and the world's) leading business paper, that it's outdated despite being less than a week old and to offer your own speculations. JdeJ (talk) 19:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC

May I also point out List of countries by future GDP estimates (nominal), and this source. All of which seems to undo your claim of the UK's economy being smaller than France's? Signsolid (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the last contribution. I've tried to assume good faith this far, but now we can be rather sure that you're just trolling to disrupt Wikipedia. Or are you actually suggesting that we use the home page of an unknown Greek guy, who himself says that his home page is outdated, instead of the Financial Times?!? Please excuse me for not taking this seriously. JdeJ (talk) 19:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the International Monetery Fund the UK's economy for 2007 is 2,660.658 US$ Billions and France's is $US 2,401.443 Billions Signsolid (talk) 20:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

As you didn't provide any working link, that's rather hard to prove or disprove.JdeJ (talk) 20:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I will not be told I am trolling to disrupt Wikipedia. I have just given the International Monetery Fund's 2007 GDP report which proves the UK's economy is larger than that of France instead of some news article about the UK's economy in November last year reacting to ever changing currency values. I'm changing the article now according to this more reliable source. Signsolid (talk) 20:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

So you still didn't read the article. See what I wrote above. The only working link you've provided is to the home page of an unknown Greek individual. Please provide a more recent and more authoratice source than Financial Times last Friday if you intend to change the article. Thanks JdeJ (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have now edited the United Kingdom and France articles and given them working links to the IMF 2007 GDP report. Signsolid (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Guys, please be mindful that WP:3RR applys. Please discuss content before adding it. -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have given a link to the IMF 2007 GDP report next to my edit and a report by the IMF on countries GDP is more reliable than a news paper. Signsolid (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we can find other sources to add weight to claims? Remember, statistics (especially fiscal statistics) can be "spun" in different ways. -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we should go with the IMF's 2007 GDP report as the IMF will always hold much more weight on GDP matters than a news paper. Signsolid (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I was asking for additional third party sources to back claims and counter claims. It is fairly clear you are alleged to the IMF report, but if you have others, this would help with verification. -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Simillarly, this isn't vandalism as such, but, however, removing citation outright mid-discussion isn't helpful either. -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I think as the IMF report carries more weight than news papers the IMF report should be continued to be used as it was before a few days ago when the Financial Times article came up. More verification needs to be given to the Financial Times article before IMF figures are abandoned. Signsolid (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Definitely, as soon as the IMF publishes a report over 2007 it will make an excellent source. But what you have reverted to over and over again is not an IMF report. It's an estimate for 2007 and 2008 made in April last years. As I've pointed out to you many times already, estimates may turn out to be right or wrong. This one turned out to be a bit wrong. Once we have the facts of what really happened, the estimate certainly doesn't take priority. But once more, as soon as we have an IMF report over 2007, I'll be the first to insert it as a source. In the meantime, an article in world's leading business paper is the best source we have. The same info has been reported on BBC, MSNBC, Le Figaro and Financial News to name but a few other reliable sources. JdeJ (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that these are good sources, but we're now left with the problem that the infobox says that the UK has the world's 6th largest economy, but when you click on the link it takes you to a page that has the UK listed as 5th. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's a bit of a problem. I'm not sure what the best solution is. It's a fact that the French economy is larger than the UK's as by the end of 2007, but we still don't have the data for all countries at the end of 2007. Changing the rank of just the UK and France in the list of countries by GDP is not a very good solution (better to change all countries at the same time). Keep on saying that the UK is the fifth largest economy in this article when we that it's not the case is no good solution either. I'm very interested in hearing your and other users' comments! JdeJ (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Changing the ranking for the UK and France without updating the GDP ranking lists to 2007 only throws out the whole ranking system for GDP. Countries' GDP rankings change all the time and to change only the UK's and France's GDP ranking for 2007 while leaving all other countries's GDP rankings for 2006 has thrown out the ranking order. The ranking for the UK and France should have been left until the IMF updated the whole world GDP ranking list. Signsolid (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Precisely, that's why I suggest not changing the article on GDP ranking lists until the IMF report for 2007. When doing a comparative lists, the same source should be used for all entries. In the individual articles on France and the UK, it's a different matter. As we don't explicitly compare them with other countries and we known that France is the fifth and the UK the sixth, it's natural to update the articles with new and reliable information once we've got it. JdeJ (talk) 17:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't even know what the 2007 GDP figures are for the UK and France are and going on just what's been in the news lately with the pound falling to a low. It seems a bit like a desperation jump on this news as quickly as possible maybe for political POV reasons. Signsolid (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I certainly agree that the GDP lists need to use a single source, even if individual articles use more up-to-date data, but this means that they will almost certainly disagree at times. Perhaps the GDP list articles could be renamed to make it more explicit that they're for 2006? Doesn't exactly solve the problem but it might reduce the scope for confusion. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea, I'm all for it. JdeJ (talk) 18:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Theres a serious problem with the report. It uses the economies' own currencies as opposed to the international dollar that are used by the Wikipedia lists. Short term fluxuations in the currency doesn't affect GDP PPP. josh (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

As already stated, the Financial Times is as good a source as one could possibly get on the UK economy. And in this case, there are lots of secondary sources to back it up. I will allow time for a further discussion, but it should probably be inserted again. Please allow time at the talk page in the future before removing sourced content. JdeJ (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how good the source is. It refers to a different GDP measure to the ones used in the infobox so cannot be used to change it. The report is based purely on the fact the pound has dropped so dramaticly in the last 6 months. Since the report the pound has recovered to €1.35. If this trend continues then the positions will be reversed again within a month. josh (talk) 00:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Josh the UK's nominal GDP, which is tied to the strength of the Pound, only fell to an unusual low for a brief period because the Pound fell to an usual low against the Euro for a brief period and so caused the UK's nominal GDP to fall slightly behind France's nominal GDP for a brief period due to a fleeting combination of an unusually low Pound and usually high Euro. As the Pound has since recovered some what since the time the article was written the UK's nominal GDP is probably higher than that of France's nominal GDP once more. I would also like to point out that British news papers are renowned for jumping on bad news but casting aside good news and most more than likely the UK's nominal GDP slipped behind France's nominal GDP for all of a week while the Pound on that week fell to an extremely unusual low and won't report on when the UK's nominal GDP again surpasses France's nominal GDP. Now that week is over and the Pound has again risen against the Euro the UK's nominal GDP is most more than likely once again higher than France's nominal GDP. I would like to point out as well that the UK's GDP growth has remained consistently higher than France's GDP growth and so is more or less impossible for France's GDP to remain higher than the UK's GDP. It is irresponsible for an encyclopedia to base all its sources on ever changing and conflicting news articles than on reliable expert sources such as the IMF, World Bank, and CIA. Signsolid (talk) 01:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The Pound is now worth €1.34 up from €1.32 when that article was published and up from when the UK's economy had only just slightly fallen below France's and so at £1 to €1.34 the UK's is now probably once again higher than France's. Signsolid (talk) 01:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That is entirely possible, but still speculation. Please source it to avoid WP:OR and WP:BALL.JdeJ (talk) 09:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The article seems to be a filler piece for a quiet news day. Its not backed up by a report from any financial organisation or give any details of the current GDPs. Neither is it picked up by any major news agencies. We shouldn't be overturning IMF or World Bank research on the basis of a piece of jounalism. The point Singsolid and I are trying to make is that the article cannot be relied upon for creating an encyclopidia that should be based on long term data not short shifts in the market. josh (talk) 09:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that when writing about the UK economy, the UK's leading business paper is not a good source? Not even when backed up by leading business news agencies in other countries? You're of course entirely entitled to your view, but I dare to claim that 95% of all references on Wikipedia are less reliable. JdeJ (talk) 10:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Not when it contridicts the IMF and World Bank. I'm not doubting the reliablity of the source but the data that backs it up. What you are suggesting is replacing data from two major financial organisations that have used a published methodology that is applied worldwide with an article that doesn't give any new figures or information other than "the UK is now 6th". If we had no idea where the UK economy ranked the article could be used but because this is replacing another source it you can't justify it by saying its reliable. It has to be as good and give at least as much information as the original source(s). josh (talk) 10:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, you've misunderstood this. There is nothing conflicting about the report. The IMF data is the best we have, but it is almost a year old. Updating all articles related to economy only once a year, even when we know that the content of the article may no longer be correct, is not an ideal option. JdeJ (talk) 10:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a news site. Using reliable and complete data that's a year old is preferable to using a news report that gives no new figures. There is no way of the IMF data sitting alongside this report. If we state in the article that the UK is now 6th it contradicts the infobox. If we change that then it contradicts the figures and due to the vague nature of the article we have no new ones to put in.

We don't know that the IMF figures are no longer correct. There has simply be a article that has contradicted them. If you changed the position of every country's economy based of news reports there would be chaos. Apparently brazil became the sixth largest economy last month[1] and Britain now has higher GDP per head than the US[2]. Next month another boffin will do another bunch of sums and find that X now beats Y who beats Z while another one will realise that Z beats X. The IMF figures are known to be reliable and can be used by anyone to get an idea of which economy is where. This ability will be wrecked if editors insist of changing articles on the basis of A found out that B is now C last week. josh (talk) 11:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The report which Josh mentions claiming that Brazil has become the 6th largest economy in the world is wrong. It's based on a World Bank study of PPP GDPs which was published last month, but the study says Brazil is the 10th largest economy, not the 6th. If, however, it had indeed become the 6th largest economy in the world, it would be legitimate to write it in the Brazil article, and consequently to write in this UK article that the UK economy has slipped to 7th rank (chuckle). Wikipedia is not a news agency, but we regularly update information, otherwise it defeats the purpose of Wikipedia which is to be more reactive and up-to-date than paper encyclopedias. When New Orleans' population was decimated by Katrina, it was reflected in the New Orleans article. We're not waiting for the US Census 2010 to write that New Orleans population has halved. It's the same here with this GDP figure. Keizuko (talk) 12:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The UK's GDP is not below Brazil's GDP and in seventh place Keizuko. You might want to read the article more closely. And by the way what's with the (chuckle)? It's nonsense these editors who are desperately trying to vandalise the UK's economic ranking are not motivated by a hate for the United Kingdom. Just take a look at how this was started with FRANCE HAS OVERANKED THE UK AS WORLD'S 5TH ECONOMY !!! Need I say anymore? Don't get me wrong I'm all for having correct figures over wrong ones and it's not that I don't accept the UK's GDP may or may not have fallen behind that of France's or may have since overtaken again with a recovering Pound but the way certain editors here have tried absolutely everything they can in an outright blitz on this article and on the France article smashing all other opinions. It's nonsense that some here are not motivated by hate for the United Kingdom and frankly some disgust me. Signsolid (talk) 17:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I've got no interest in continuing this, everything of any value has been said.I'd like to point out, though, that unlike Signsolid I don't accuse a single other person becuse his nationality. I believe that most English editors on Wikipedia are just as fair and responsible as editors of any other nationality. Signsolid's attacks about "hate" and "disgust", just as all his vandalism edits and his repeated personal attacks on other users and their nationalities, don't reflect badly on any other editor, just on himself. As we're no longer discussing the UK, I hope this discussion comes to an end. JdeJ (talk) 18:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

UK economy slips behind France, additional sources

As some users refuse to accept this, I add some additional sources to the Financial Times article, msnbc [3], Financial News [4], Le Figaro [5]. As I've pointed out again and again, the source that Signsolid is replacing Financial Times with is not an IMF-report. It's an old IMF-estimate and we now know it did not predict the growth in France and the UK correctly. I find it slightly baffling that I repeatedly have to repeat that facts based on what really happened are more reliable than predictions made almost a year before they happen. JdeJ (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This material looks strong and reliable. I don't think the material found by Signsolid stands up to these sources. I'd be inclined to use this in the article, but worded with care. -- Jza84 · (talk) 13:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%. In my version, I haven't even mentioned anything about the UK "falling behind France" or even mentioned France at all. That could be seen as provocative. All I've done is to change the sentence that said that the UK has the fifth largest economy to say that it has the sixth largest, in accordance with the source. JdeJ (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The FT articles is wrong in that it extrapolates on the back of 2006 numbers. I think for discussing economics, official statistics should be used instead of journalistic opinions. The most recent comparison of European GDPs in a common currency (euro)has been provided by Eurostat on the 9th of January 2008 and portrays the situation as of the end of Q3 2007. It appears that at that moment of time the UK economy was about 9.5% larger than that of France in nominal terms (in PPP terms the depreciation of the GBP has had no direct impact in any case). http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PGP_PRD_CAT_PREREL/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008_MONTH_01/2-09012008-EN-AP1.PDF

Forward-looking, it is indeed the case the GBP may continue to weaken versus the EUR and the French economy effectively overtakes the UK economy in nominal size. We cannot be sure about this though because the GBP/EUR depreciation from 30/09/07 until 31/12/07 more or less matches the GDP nominal size differential. We'll have to wait until Q4 2007 GDP figures have been released to know which economy is larger. Hence it would be more appropriate to wait to make the adjustment, if any is required, until the preliminary Q4 2007 statistics come out in early February.

This is just an economist's view; I have not changed anything in the article and leave that to you to agree on. I notice most of the debate above is driven by nationalistic feelings rather than by an attempt to represent facts. Don't assume everything you read in newspapers to be true, even if it is the FT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.154.204.179 (talk • contribs)

You're right that most of the debate above appears driven by nationalistic feelings. That's my impression too. Apparently some people's chauvinistic feelings have been hurt by the fact that the UK economy has slipped behind, God forbid!, "the France", so they're using all sorts of dilatory arguments to have the information removed from Wikipedia. In particular User:Signsolid seems to have an obsession with UK vs. France. I discovered this priceless edit he made a few months ago for instance: [6]. Anyway, one way to try and find common ground between reasonable people would be to say something like "in recent years the UK economy has been the 5th largest in the world according to the World Bank and IMF, but some economists now think that the recent depreciation of the sterling pound vs. the euro has shrunk its size to sixth largest behind France". Keizuko (talk) 12:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That wording sounds sensible to me. It doesn't help with the infobox, but as for the main text it sounds sensible. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, it may not satisfy some rabid nationalists but most sensible editors could hopefully agree on that. JdeJ (talk) 18:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Keizuko, note it is not economists but journalists who claim that UK nominal GDP has slipped behind that of France. As economists we tend to look mainly at PPP GDP. In that respect both France and the UK have slipped two places the last few years as China and India moved up on the list. That has been an important event and was not some discussion about a few basis points difference between France and the UK. Personally I think that your approach to referring to the most up-to-date IMF data is the best approach though. This does mean that Wikipedia does run behind on the effective events, but trying to report events by means of guesswork opens up to a lot of subjectivity. Is the US in recession or not? We don't know. We will only be able to tell as we get the data. Yet if you open up Wikipedia for this kind of debate, then the whole anti-american population will find hundreds of newspaper articles it is and the pro-american popultion will find hundreds of newspaper articles its is not. The result is a "Battlegound Ecyclopedia" between nationalistic camps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.154.204.179 (talk) 15:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think there's some misunderstanding here. It's not a journalist at the Financial Times who woke up some morning and decided that the UK economy had slipped behind France. It's actually a study by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research that found that out, and the Financial Times merely reported the findings of that study. Also, it is a mischaracterisation to say that economists tend to look mainly at PPP GDP. In fact economists use PPP GDP for some purposes, such as comparing standards of living, and they use nominal GDP for other purposes, such as comparing the sheer size of economies. Keizuko (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah. The clever tricks of a journalism. The journalist created the story then got quote off the director of NIESR saying how its a "political economic cataclysm" to give it a nice edge of credablity. At no point does it reference any research by them. josh (talk) 19:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you perhaps come out and say plain English whether you think that the UK's leading business paper is unreliable as a source on the UK economy? JdeJ (talk) 23:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have read the discussion and here is a solution that I think will satisfy all of you. Instead of relying on one source (which is a media one) and make it the only and sole reference, the Wikipedia reader should be just informed about it in respect of one policy. To make the encyclopaedia consistent and coherent, I suggest relying only on the IMF source for official results (which is used with all countries; why France and the UK are exceptions), BUT nevertheless we should tell the reader that some reports (which are media-based reports, I have not find any research source; tell me please where you found it) indicate that the UK's economy is weakening lately and is slipping behind France. We should tell him the cause too as indicated in the FT. This way, we are making all the articles coherent (List by GDP) and at the same time, it is informing the user of latest possible changes (may be in the form of a notice in the economy section). One final note, please do not try to exaggerate in discussions using special styles or forms which make your comments non-credible (the use the caps letters above). Bestofmed (talk) 02:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There are fundamental differences between the British and French economies which make them difficult to compare. Any numeric comparison must be measured in a specific currency, and the value of pound fell significantly relative to the euro in 2007. Viewfinder (talk) 06:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather odd that the issues around the ranking only arise when the UK economy is tanking and the French soaring. I suspect POV is rearing its ugly head here. Sarah777 (talk) 18:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

If, for whatever reason, a Frenchman prefers to buy from an expensive domestic supplier, he will contribute more to his national economy as measured by GDP, but he may not be better off. Still, whether we British like it or not, the claim that the UK has slipped to sixth is attributed to a reliable UK source. Perhaps if the £ recovers, a more up to date source will be found that will overturn this claim. Meanwhile we might like to ask if we have too many line managers and money/asset shufflers and too few producers. We might also like to remember that the likes of Wikipedia contribute considerably to a better informed world but contribute zilch to GDP. There is more to quality of life than GDP! Viewfinder (talk) 07:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Addressing the specific proposal put by Bestofmed, I agree. Using the IMF ranking to be consistent with other articles has obvious virtues. It also seem sound to me to say that the UK economy is 5th in terms of X and 6th in terms of Y, having recently fallen behind France due to the pound's weakening against the euro. -Rrius (talk) 21:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

user:Sarah777 are you sure it's not actually yours and user:JdeJ's POV rearing its ugly head considering you've both been the main ones behind making sure everyone accepts what many have here have come to see as an anti-British pro-French POV on GDP rankings being forced upon the article. Whether the fact you're Irish and he's French has anything to do with it I don't know but I suspect it's not British nationalism here that's the problem but French and Irish nationalism which has always been anti-British. Signsolid (talk) 22:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought I would add this to the discussion. An article in the very serious French newspaper Le Monde today about France and the Indian economy started with this sentence: "La France, cinquième puissance économique mondiale, ne se place qu'au huitième rang des investisseurs en Inde." ("France, the fifth largest economy in the world, is only the eigth largest investor in India."). Source: [7]. So it seems the fact that France has overtaken the UK and become the fifth largest economy in the world is now widely accepted, Le Monde being rather conservative with new data in general. Keizuko (talk) 14:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This debate cannot be used as an excuse to change the infobox. That data is based on and linked to the IMF figures and changing it would make it inconsistent with that page. We also have no new figures with this alleged change so we can only make a half cocked update with the figures not matching up with the position.

Referring back to the article itself. It contains the following paragraph -

In 2006, the GDP of France was €1,792bn (£1,353bn) compared with £1,304bn for the UK. With sterling worth €1.47 on average in 2006, this put the UK economy comfortably 6.7 per cent ahead of the French economy.

Its a while since I did maths but when I did we were taught that 1,353bn was more than 1,304bn. Also 1792 divided by 1.47 is 1219. 1304 is 6.9% more than 1219. How can we use article about economics as a reliable source when the person who wrote it can't even do basic maths? How do we know hes got the new figures right? josh (talk) 07:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

This debate is now mute. The 2007 CIA figures are are in [8]. The UK is still ahead of France and unlike the above article they give the figures. josh (talk) 07:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The 2007 CIA figures were compiled before the fall of the sterling pound in recent weeks, so they are outdated. As for the Financial Times article, it seems you didn't understand it properly. What they wrote is that in 2006 the GDP of France was €1,792 bn, which was indeed £1,219 bn with sterling worth €1.47, but which is £1,353 bn with sterling worth €1.32, i.e. higher than the UK GDP which was £1,304 bn. Not that complicated to understand. Keizuko (talk) 14:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The FT article states 'The US, Japan, Germany, China and France all had larger economies than the UK in the third quarter of 2007' The CIA figures (updated on 24 January) are for the whole of 2007. As for the FT figures it clearly states that the figures are in 2006. If he is using 2006 economy figures and simply adjusting to account for a change in the exchange rate then it is yet another reason not to use the FT as a source. Economy sizes have changed since then (the UK faster than France) making his figures out of date. The CIA figures account for the increase in economy size. BTW An exchange rate of €1.32 to the pound would make it £1,357 so it still doesn't add up. josh (talk) 14:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Try and make an effort to understand data instead of dismissing things so lightly, otherwise it's hard to have a serious discussion. The exchange rate the FT referred to was €1.3244, but obviously they didn't write the four digits in their article, they just wrote €1.32. Again, the CIA figures were compiled BEFORE the recent fall in the sterling pound, so their real GDP figures are outdated (their PPP GDP figures are not outdated, of course). The FT, on the other hand, used the current exchange rate after the fall in the sterling, so their figures are the most up-to-date. Since 2006 of course economy sizes have changed, but even though the UK economy is growing slighly faster than the French economy (3% vs 2% in 2007), this is not enough to compensate for the sharp depreciation of the sterling, so the FT's assertion that the UK economy has slipped behind France is still valid. Keizuko (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The CIA figures were updated on 24 January 2008 so they could have used any exchange rate up to that date. You insisted on the inclusion of the FT article on the basis that it is the most recent source. Now the CIA is therefore the FT article is "out of date". josh (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"I" did not insist on anything. It is several users who think the information from the FT article should appear in the UK article, and you are removing it despite consensus to have this information. As for the CIA World Factbook, what they do is they use the average exchange rate in a given year, so their 2007 figures use the average 2007 exchange rate which doesn't reflect the sharp depreciation of the sterling pound given that the bulk of this depreciation occured after December 15. Keizuko (talk) 15:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Whereas the FT article delibratly uses the point at which the pound was weakest[9]. The reason an average exchange rate is used is to eliminate such anomalies. The FT article is a piece of opportunistic sensationalist journalism that has no place in encyclopedia. Do you think that when they next compile Encarta or Britannica they will think well the IMF, World Bank and CIA all say the UK is fifth but I think i'll go with this London hack who obviously has his finger on the pulse.

We also have the problem that the article as it stands contradicts itself. The article says that the UK is sixth by GDP while the infobox says its fifth. The article gives no figures to update the infobox with so we're stuck with a article that contradicts itself. Just so someones POV can be pushed on to it. josh (talk) 16:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It’s pathetic the way people make all this economy business sound so personal... (80.42.209.111 (talk) 12:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC))

There are several different sources that all appear to be reliable and quote different rankings, and there is clearly no concensus on this talk page, so I believe that we should revert to the status quo before this statement was added. Also Josh makes a good point that the FT article is based on figures from when the pound was at its weakest - it has since recovered significantly. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 22:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I love the way Dan1980 tries to eat the cake and have it. There's no consensus so we have to select and version, his version. POV-pushing at its best. The statement in question has been in this article for at least a year, so the status quo would be to keep it. The only thing that has changed is the size of the UK economy. I also love the accusation of sensationalism here, it's the first time I've heard the Financial Times being accused of that. What is more, Financial Times is just one of the many sources that reported this. Lastly, all speculation about how the situation is with the pound being recovered is WP:OR and of no significance whatsoever. It can be pointed out that France overtook the UK already in November and still was ahead when the article was published in the middle in January. What has happened during the last weeks is pure speculation in the absence of any source.

I can't help thinking that the English users who are all too eager to ridicule the Financial Times, MSNBC, Financial News and other leading news agencies would be singing a very different tune had it been the other way around. JdeJ (talk) 16:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, your comments are bordering on personal attacks - why can't you be civil? The version that I reverted to was not my version, I only recently became involved in this to try to put an end to the continuous edit wars, and have found myself harassed for my efforts. I also do not appreciate the insinuation that I and other edits that have reverted your edits are racist.

Just because an article appears in the Financial Times, does this automatically exclude it from being sensationalism? Also, correct me if I am wrong, but don't all of the other sources that you quote cite the same FT article?

The statement in question was changed a matter of weeks ago - the article that it cites was only published on 11 January 2008, so your argument that it has been in place for at least a year and is the status quo is also invalid.

Finally, regarding the "speculation" about the recovery of the UK economy in recent weeks, Joshurtree posted a link to evidence of this in the discussion above if you would care to have a look.

I have added a RfC to the talk page in an attempt to resolve the current situation. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 18:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Currency

on the weblink it say 57% not 55% Against the euro —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.231.38 (talk) 12:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I checked that out - if you carry on reading it will say that, if the Government recommended that the UK join the euro, how would you vote? There it clearly shows 30% for, 55% against. The 57% one is if the UK voted now (2005), who would support/not support. 86.142.110.249 17:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been reading about a current analysis on UK GDP which should see the current Nominal updated Analyst Oxford Economics said the UK's GDP per head of population will reach £23,500 this year that is $46,331 the weblink for this is here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7174372.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.57.0 (talk) 13:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the Financial Times, the UK has slipped behind France at 6th biggest economy in the world instead of 5th previously, because of the weakness of the GBP against the Euro: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/abe2ffc4-c08b-11dc-b0b7-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1. This should be edited here and on the France article. Michros (talk) 18:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, a single editor has deleted this information from the article despite consensus to keep it. I'm restoring it. Keizuko (talk) 16:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't the fact that the euro is widely accepted in Northern Ireland be mentioned in this article?

As the euro is also widely accepted in London, Zurich and Geneva and the pound is widely accepted in Calais? Not sure about the relevance... 160.83.32.14 (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Dispute regarding UK economy

Is the UK currently the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world?

The answer? Probably 5th with the occasional slip to 6th due to exchange rates. But, well, why not just say it is rated as the 5th or 6th, depending upon exchange rates? Really, is there any need for all this pollava? Narson (talk) 18:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hm... a bit of misunderstanding here. It's not like the exchange rate is widely changing every other day. Bottom line is, until September last year the sterling pound was in the upper 1.40s euros (and it was so for many years), and the UK had the 5th largest economy ahead of France, but since the sharp depreciation of the sterling that started last September the sterling is now in the lower 1.30s euros (it has been in the lower 1.30s since the beginning of January; 1.32938 euros as I'm speaking now), and so the UK economy has slipped behind France (the UK's real GDP has shrunk relative to France, Germany, and all other Eurozone economies). Experts predict the sterling could fall even further (due to the UK current account deficit), so it's not as if this depreciation was just temporary and the UK's GDP was going to overtake France's again anytime soon. As for GDP growth, in 2007 the UK had a 3.1% growth of its GDP vs. an expected 2.0% in France (4th quarter figures should be released in the coming days), so the growth difference between the two countries wasn't enough to offset the depreciation of the sterling pound. Keizuko (talk) 20:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, so the exchange rate does not fluctuate widely from one day to the next, but the point is that the FT article was based on figures from a 52-week low point. Most reliable reports on GDP take an average over a year to avoid such anomolies. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 20:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It's likely that the UK's high 3.1% GDP growth rate compared to France's mediocre 2% GDP growth rate means the UK's high economic growth rate has offset the slight fall in the value of the Pound considering that the UK's GDP has grown 1.1% more than France's GDP almost certainly offsets the effects of a mere 8 cent fall in the value of the Pound against the Euro from £1 = €1.40 to £1 = €1.32. It's also irresponsible for an encyclopedia to source its rankings from different press articles as different press sources will give differing results and it's likely press articles reporting the UK's economy had slipped behind France's economy due to a fall in the Pound hadn't taken into account GDP growth rates for both countries. Press articles are also problematic for use as sources as their many goal is to sell news not inform like the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, CIA do. However, the real problem here is many editors have pro-French sentiment and have seized on an opportunity to rank the French economy as higher than the UK's, which conflicts with all International Monetary Fund, World Bank, and CIA factbook predictions. Signsolid (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

For some reasons, some editors keep referring to this as something very recent and just depending on exchange rates. That's not the case, the fact is that France overtook the UK in November and has kept the lead since then. Of course that's a recent change, but it's not just about changing exchange rates. I would also like to add that any speculation by any of us regarding how the exchange rate and the economy has developed during the past weeks is original research. I'm the first to welcome new and fresh articles, but please let's keep our own speculations out of this as it's not relevant. On the other hand, I agree with Dan1980 that this is not the best possible report on GDP. It is, however, the best one we have at the moment. Once the IMF-figures for 2007 are known, we should of course use them, no matter what they state. The problem is that we now have to decide between very old figures or new figures. I hope that everybody can agree that, as sources go, the Financial Times is the most reliable economic newspaper and that a UK paper is highly unlikely to have an anti-UK agenda. JdeJ (talk) 21:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

As for Singsolid's usual whining about the pro-French sentiments of editors, I'm not French (well, I'm a mix of many nationalities and French isn't the most prominent) and some of the other editors who have made the same edits as I are, as far as I know, not French at all. Making all this talk about pro-French sentiments rather weak. As Signsolid decided to bring up that nationality issue, to the best of my knowledge every editor refusing to have the UK as being behind France is English in sharp contrast to the so-called "pro-French" camp. To his credit, though, Signsolid has chosen a very wise and neutral current wording and I thank him for that JdeJ (talk) 21:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I would say that until more reliable data is available, the solution suggested by Narson and currently used in the article should remain. We shouldn't use data that is likely to be inaccurate just because it is more recent than the known reliable data used previously. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 22:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I support Dan's suggestion above. Perhaps we could add a sentence making it clear that the report from IMF says this and the Financial Times wrote that. In any case, we should all be able to agree on not agreeing and making that clear in the article. This is a temporary solution untill we have the IMF figures. JdeJ (talk) 22:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching this since the matter was first brought up but intentionally staying away. It sounds to me like a lot of nationalist feathers have been ruffled. In my opinion, the UK is currently the 6th largest economy by GDP. (Saying that this is "only" because of currency rates is irrevelent - 1) both currencies are converted into a third, US dollars, before their compared, 2) the relative prices of their respective currencies was responsible for the previous rankings as well, you know? 3) the change in currency rates reflect the change in the size/importance of economies, anyway).

However ... the figures infoboxes link to the page showing the 2006 data and we don't have "official" figures for 2008 to update that page. Until that happens, the infobox should stay to reflect that article, otherwise we will end up with different "results" across all pages as everyone picks something to suit themselves.

Worse, we don't *know* what rank internationally France and the UK occupy - it's unlikely but while we do know that France has overtaken the UK, we don't know that both countries haven't been overtaken by Italy. If we are to "update" the 5th place in the infobox, we would need to re-compile a new rankings table of world economies. That would be original research, or at best a synthesis - which in WP terms is the same thing.

Consensus across WP appears to be to go with the 2006 IMF table until something better comes along. In fact, consensus even appears to be to go with the 2006 IMF table over the 2006 World Bank where a conflict occurs (e.g. Sweden and Switzerland).

The recent change regarding the French/UK economies can be commented on in the article itself. For the infobox, stick with the agreed rankings table until that is updated. --sony-youth^pléigh 22:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually no, "the change in currency rates reflect the change in the size/importance of economies" is not an accurate statement. Size and importance of economies is one factor that influences exchange rates but by no means the only one. Interest rates, politics, safe currencies, central bank manipulation, the price of commodities... all these and more also affect exchange rates. Exchange rates are not the most reliable indicator of economic strength. AJKGORDON«» 14:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Any measure of GDP or GDP per capita used for comparative purposes should use figures based on Purchasing power parity. Please refer to List of countries by GDP (PPP), where the UK is ranked as 6th.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe all the country articles use nominal GDP rather than PPP. It is something that should be taken up with the relevent wikiproject (wikiproject on countries) I imagine, they will likely know if it has been discussed. Or are you saying that is the standard? If that is the standard now, then it avoids the whole debate. Narson (talk) 10:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

That the individual country articles use nominal GDP is irrelevant. The standard for comparison in academia and policy analysis is PPP, and has been for some time. Relata refero (talk) 12:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevent as we are discussing GDP in an article..strikes me that when discussing what GDP should be used, then what GDP is used could not be more relevent.. I'm not arguing in favour of either system, I'm not an economist and I don't care whether the UK is ranked 5th, 6th or 101st (Providing that we have refs). I am merely stating what the standard seems to be, from a quick check on wikipedia, for use in infoboxes etc. The infoboxes are, generally, maintained by the wikiprojects as while wiki pages arn't sources or precedents for each other, we do try for some degree of consistancy. There seems to be some disagreement as to the UK's ranking in the various system so, why not list them both in the prose part of the article? Considering the articles length already, the extra sentence won't kill us. Narson (talk) 13:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec)::::::::::No, we're discussing how the comparison should be made. If you want to keep the figures in GBP, that's fine; but any comparison should be in purchasing power-adjusted figures. Relata refero (talk) 14:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Didn't say it should be put in GBP, as I believe the standard for GDP nominal is still to convert everything to dollars for comparison? My understanding is that PPP is simply adjusted for buying power using an index based off the prices of certain key goods? Narson (talk) 14:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The question is one of ranking. Ranking of economies is complicated and not all authorities apply the same criterion. Are there sources that apply a ranking on way or another, or both? If so, what are those sources and what precisely do they say? My concern would be converting raw data into a conclusion, which would be original research. On the other hand, if reliable sources assign a ranking (or rankings) then the current dispute is resolved as simply as having the article state whatever these sources say. It would not be unusual for different sources to arrive at different rankings of economy. In this case the article should express this rather than declaring one rather than the other. If sources and statements from these sources can be supplied I am willing to take a look and offer my observations. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• I have read this article from the Financial Times, but since current estimates of GDP are being continously revised, I would say this is an unreliable source. I am inclined to use OECD statistics for 2006 as the most consistent basis for comparison, as the 2007 numbers will not be "firm" yet. The PPP USD number for 2006 is $1,996,983m for the UK (France $1,962,072m), while the nominal number is $2,395,483m (France $2,247,975m). I also prefer OECD numbers over those of the World Bank because you can drill down into the numbers.--Gavin Collins (talk) 16:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Any straightforward calculation shows the UK economy should still be larger than the French economy (nominal terms) in Q4 of 2007. This is the most recent period for which it can be calculated because Q1 2008 has not yet finished. Eurostat Q3 2007 GDP: UK Q3 2007 GDP = EUR 514,110.1 mio; France Q3 2007 GDP = EUR 469,988.9. GBP-EUR FX rates 30/09/07 = 1.43590; 31/12/07 = 1.35710. Assuming 0% inflation and 0% growth in Q4 for both UK and France (whereas the sum of both is expected to be slightly in favour of UK in reality), then at the 31/12/07 FX rates, UK GDP = EUR 485,896.52 mio; French GDP = EUR 469,988.9. This means that without other mitigating effects (i.e nominal GDP growth to be higher for the UK than for France in Q4 as is expected per economists' consensus), the UK economy remains 3.4% larger than the French economy as per 31st of December 2007. Also with todays FX rate the UK economy is still larger than the French economy. Source: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PGP_PRD_CAT_PREREL/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008_MONTH_01/2-09012008-EN-AP1.PDF 217.42.88.237 (talk) 01:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: It seems to me if economic ranking is used in the article it should 1) have a year attached and 2) it should be specific about the economic measurement factor. For example,“As for 2006 the UK’s had the fifth largest GDP in the world according to the Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development.” If there are secondary sources offering remarks about the historical economic position of the UK in relation to other national economies this might be useful information, too. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 14:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If the UK's 2006 production was higher than France's, a fair comparison has to convert those figures to a common currency using the exchange rates prevalent at the time. The ordering will be the same whatever currency is used. (If X has more dollars than Y then he also has more yen, whatever the exchange rate, so long as they convert to a common currency before that spot rate moves.) The important thing is to convert at the right time, which I believe is the time the goods and services are produced. I don't think it makes sense to reverse the order on the assumption that the UK invested the money raised from selling that output in GBP whereas France kept its proceeds in the stronger EUR. If you are going to apply that logic then you also need to take into account the UK's higher interest rates, and possibly forward exchange rates for hedging purposes too. Certes (talk) 19:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't the currency for GDP ect be in £ ??

Look here all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Which_one_to_use

Why is our page using USD? Last time I checked my wallet I had GBP in there ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by UberBicep (talk • contribs) 22:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Because USD is the standard currency used for international comparisons. No point in using everyone's local currency for their local economy. It would make it much more difficult to compare economies. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately it also introduces significant distortions to quote a figure in dollars, presumably based on calculations made in pounds, when the exchange rate fluctuates so markedly. What exchange rate is assumed in the calculations? shouldn't the pound equivalent be included also? A dollar value is frankly useless to anyone in the UK who might want to use this figure for some purpose, or even understand it. It needs to be in pounds to be usefull to anyone other than Americans. Even to americans it must be misleading unless the assumed exchange rate is also stated. Isn't there a wiki policy of using national conventions according to the appropriate nationality of an article? Sandpiper (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. No one's denying there are problems, whichever currency you choose. But the fact is that, hardy son of Britain though I be, I would find estimates of China's GDP in dollars more meaningful to me than estimates in yuan. Likewise I am sure that an interested Chinese would find estimates of the UK's GDP more meaningful if quoted in dollars than in pounds sterling. That is the basic reason why all articles on countries should be quoting GDP in dollars as a minimum. Of course there's nothing wrong with stating the GDP using the local currency too. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Literacy

I just noticed the article claims an official literacy rate of 99%. Recent news items and indeed gvernment campaigns would suggest that a significant proportion of children manage to leave school without learning to read effectively. I don't know what that figure is, and indeed 1% in this situation is frankly shocking, but I got the distinct impression it is bigger than that. Sandpiper (talk) 19:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Some sort of citaion would be needed. This seems to be one of the tabloids' favourite shock stories, but if you can find a reliable citation feel free to change the figure. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 01:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added a recent citation for the 99% figure from a source independent of the UK. Certes (talk) 19:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Lead

OK, there's been a few changes to the lead in the last week or so, some I'm quite keen on, but I would just like to get some input on some issues that I think need discussion (all pertain to the first paragraph):

1. The UK has a land border, so is it strictly, technically or otherwise verifiably an island country?
2. Is the UK commonly known as Great Britain? Is "commonly known" best practice here?
3. Surely Europe (or rather Mainland Europe) ought to be linked?
4. Are the Scottish Gaelic and Welsh translations necessary? Why just these, and not Cornish, Irish Gaelic, Scots... or even Urdu, Bangla etc (which are also commonly spoken languages in the UK)? (I'm implying that these should go!).
5. We've lost mentions of sovereignty (sovereign state) and the cited "countryhood" in the lead, ought these go back in?
6. Does the land-border with the Republic really need three citations?
7. Great Britain is linked twice in the first paragraph.

Input welcome here. -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

2. If my memory of GCSE Geography serves me correctly, Great Britain refers to mainland Britain (Great as in the largest island of the British Isles), whereas the UK also includes many of the smaller islands and Northern Ireland. (i.e. the statement is incorrect)

3. I agree, either stick to English which is the official language, or include all minority languages, which would be very messy indeed.

6. No, it's common knowledge, so one should be more than enough.

7. The second link should be removed as per WP policy. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 01:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

1. In that it is not on a mainland or continent, yes it is as per the definition in the article island country.

2. Speaking as an Australian, reference would commonly be made to "Britain" and the "British", but not Great Britain. Not sure how you would cite it though. --Michael Johnson (talk) 02:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts

- 2. the UK is an island nation as all its territory in on islands. Other examples of island nations with land borders include Indonesia and Haiti.

- 3. Welsh and Scottish Gaelic have a different legal status to other minority languages. Indeed, for naturalization purposes, a knowledge of English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic is required.

Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 16:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

1. The UK is an island country (as is the Republic of Ireland).
2. According the the Oxford English Dictionary, either Great Britain or simply Britain can refer to the UK (although contrary to WP consensus, the OED takes Britain as referring to the island and Great Britain as referring to the "political unit" formed by England, # Scotland and Wales, so no doubt WP will take it's own unique spin on how Britain, great or otherwise, might refer to the UK as a whole).
3. Forgetting to mention the Continent strikes me as a little bit of Fog in Channel-ism.
4. Welsh and Scottish Gaelic are official languages of the UK. Irish, Cornish and Scots are not. Per norm they should be included.
5. Consensus appears to be for "country" [*grumble* *grumble*] over (the far more accurate) "sovereign state*.
6. There doesn't need to be any refs for the land border with the Republic. Who challenged that assertion that they were required in the first place!?
7. Per the manual of style, only the first reference to Great Britian should be linked.

Some other things, I would change:

• Change "Commonwealth realms" to "16 other countries" as it is easy for a reader to gloss of Commonwealth of Nation and Commonwealth realms thinking that they are the same or at least very similar in make-up.
• Saying that the "UK was the world's foremost power during the 19th and early 20th century" is a little liberal with the truth. Only in the late 19th century did the UK emerge as the foremost power, and even then it's not as if it's was streets ahead of everyone else. More accurate is to say that the "UK was one of the world's foremost power during the 19th and early 20th century".
• We could also do with dates for the British Empire. As it is, we don't know when it existed. Although, this is also a matter for the main body of the article, which give abysmal treatment to the topic, only referring to it obliquely.

--sony-youth^pléigh 17:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to action some of the changes suggested here. Let me know if there are any objections or tweaks needed please, -- Jza84 · (talk) 12:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

There isn't that big of a consensus to remove Great Britain from the 'commonly known as' part in the lead; however, it's not a big deal to me so unless other people feel it should be there as well I'll leave it be. LonelyMarble (talk) 20:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The comment from User:Sony-youth about Britain emerging in the late 19th century as the foremost power is wrong. The defeat of Napoleon in 1815 left Britain without any serious international rival (apart from Russia in central Asia). See Pax Britannica. If anything by the late 19th century the gap between Britain and its rivals was closing, with the rise of Germany and the United States. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 21:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"Are the Scottish Gaelic and Welsh translations necessary? (I'm implying that these should go!)" - British Nationalists upset about their economy declining to only 6th largest can be reassured that the UK is still No. 1 for xenophobia at least. Perhaps the lead should read "The United Kingdom is made up of England and a few unimportant bits which we need not discuss here as this is the English Wikipedia"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.22.97 (talk) 17:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

While I disagree 100% with the tone in the message above and will point out civility policies to the user, I understand the response. Suggesting to have versions in official minority languages in country removed is what we sometimes might see in tense regions such as the Balkans by extreme nationalists. And while I disagree with the way the user expressed himself and consider his/her conduct wrong, the conduct of Jza84 could also be questioned. If you make such an extreme suggestion, coming very close to the views of those who want to deny/oppress national minorities, I don't think it's very honest to remove replies from hurt users. Like it or not, the suggestion you made here does smell of extreme nationalism. I don't believe it was intended that way and assume that you're only unaware of which language are spoken and official in different parts of the UK. JdeJ (talk) 19:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed that comment because he/she misappropriates my comments. "Are the Scottish Gaelic and Welsh translations necessary? (I'm implying that these should go!)" is not what I said, I was actually questioning why Scots, Cornish, Irish etc are not also used? Not only that, I was merely querying it (discussion - quite politely too). It is not an "extreme suggestion" and does not oppress national minorities (whatever they are?); on the contrary I was (without realising these two languages had a specific legal distiction - which hasn't really been elaborated on as of yet) asking for a little more social equality for other minority languages, or they should've all gone. You may care to note that I was asking for some consensus on the issues I raised and once feedback was given, I used an edit summary explaining the change and noted it on the talk page! Also, I did not remove this from the article either. On these grounds I'm a little stunned by the use of language here JdeJ - I did everything by the book and had the article's best interests very much at heart. Oh and for the record, I'm not even English! -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

And... nationalism is against the UK, I'm a unionist!... and using language that asserts I'm a xenophobe and oppressor (despite my userpage stating I'm for ethnic-equality and that I speak a minority language myself) is neither helpful, engaging or civil, and strictly against WP:CIVIL. I certainly standby removing it. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, I've never believed for a second that you would a nationalist in any way, I've seen far too many edits from you and know you to be a very responsible editor. I was merely trying to explain that to someone not familiar with your edit history, such a suggestion might easily be interpreted in that way. As I already said, I'm sure it's only because you're not familiar with the national minorities of the UK. Once again, sorry if I gave the wrong impression above. JdeJ (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I accept your apology. I still fail to see however why you thought that contribution should be reverted back in, what useful commentary it includes and how mentions of the economy dispute should be linked with my username when I merely aided with mediation. Leave it in for all I care; I thought I was doing the page a favour by removing it. Clearly re-adding it has taken the focus off how to improve the article, and onto a timewasting issue of unsigned, anonymous factually incorrect personal slander. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Incase anybody else has any doubts:

• This was my edit to the lead section.
• This edit removed the Welsh and Scottish Gaelic translations.
• I've since done some copyeditting, which I declared in the edit summaries and on this talk page below.

If anyone finds any of my far-right British nationalism, please let me know. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Population figures

I would like to point out that the population figures for the UK are from mid-2006 and are in desperate need of updating as they are the oldest population figures for a country on Wikipedia and the UK's population has been growing quite quickly since 2006. Signsolid (talk) 02:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mid-2006 is the last official estimate by the UK statistical office, so any more recent estimate is original research (see WP:OR) The new official estimate (mid-2007) will be published in the end of August this year. Keizuko (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Constitutional monarchy?

I would like to politely argue the fact that the UK is stated to be a constitutional monarchy, when actually it does not have a constitution and is therefore a parliamentary monarchy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riidster (talk • contribs) 18:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The UK does have a constitution though – it is merely uncodified (i.e. not in a single document). See Constitution of the United Kingdom. Rossenglish (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the UK is described as a 'Constitutional Monarchy' as opposed to an 'Absolute Monarchy'. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 19:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

In truth, the terms constitutional monarchy and parliamentary monarchy are both applicable to the UK – they are even on the same wikipedia page. Rossenglish (talk) 19:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Would a country the constitution of which gave absolute power to the monarch still be a constitutional monarchy? TharkunColl (talk) 19:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect not on the basis that, by definition, a monarch with absolute power would be 'over' the constitution rather than 'under' it. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Red-herring discussion. We know it is a constitutional monarchy - no need to discuss it further. Given the huge amount of work that is needed on this page a little focus might be good - e.g. start formatting those citations and add new ones where required. John Smith's (talk) 12:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Red herring. --sony-youth^pléigh 21:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Article size

Does anyone else think this article needs some serious hacking. Its now up to 125k with 30+ sections. We need to reduce it down to a summary prose. As all of it will be backed up by sub articles anyway. I don't think we need a separate section for different religions or sports. We also have 4 sections about cities. We should look at the article with the philosophy of "would someone wanting general info about the country be looking for X". josh (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. Lots of copyeditting is needed really now in my few, the prose being "mature" if nothing else. Wikipedia:Article size is probably a good start to look at, whilst Wikipedia:COUNTRIES#Sections might also have some pointers too. Finally, as part of this, WP:PR might give us some clues where we can reduce our article size via the culling of grammatical redundancy and other un-needed formatting. -- Jza84 · (talk) 00:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just checked the size of the USA article - it is much bigger! Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 17:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Quite right, and well spotted! I had a quick scan through the prose earlier today too (removing some redundancy!), and the text isn't too bad at all. There are some listy sections post Culture that need addressing but other than that, it's not too bad. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Subdivisions and local government - proposal to remove irrelevancy/duplication

Why are the following two paragraphs in the "Subdivisions and local government" subsection? (bolding added by me)

"The Crown has sovereignty over the Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey. Collectively, these three territories are known as the Crown dependencies, lands owned by the British monarch but not part of the United Kingdom. They are not part of the European Union. However, the Parliament of the United Kingdom has the authority to legislate for the dependencies, and the British government manages their foreign affairs and defence.

The UK has fourteen overseas territories around the world, the last remaining territories of the British Empire. The overseas territories are not considered part of the UK, but in most cases, the local populations have British citizenship and the right to abode in the UK. This has been the case since 2002."

The Subdivisions and local government section at this article is clearly for the subdivisions and local government of the United Kingdom, and not of anywhere else.

In addition to the illogicality, I object to these two paragraphs also on the grounds that it is just duplicatation of the same information featured more concisely in the introduction:

"The Crown Dependencies of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, formally possessions of the Crown, are not part of the UK but form a federacy with it.[11] The UK has fourteen overseas territories,[12] all remnants of... "

And a third objection: neither of these two paragraphs even mentions the subdivisions of, or the local government systems of, any crown dependency or overseas territory. --Mais oui! (talk) 07:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

What in particular is the issue? Seems legitimately encyclopaedic to me, to avoid confusion if for no other reason- compare and contrast with the situation of France, where overseas departements are to all intents and purposes considered parts of mainland France (correct me if I'm wrong on this). Mentioning that these are not local sub-divisions of the UK, where there could legitimately be confusion, is surely still encyclopaedic. It doesn't immediately seem illogical to me. Badgerpatrol (talk) 08:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is called "United Kingdom". It is therefore about precisely that: the United Kingdom. Its subsections: Geography, Politics, Transport etc are for the geography (etc) of the United Kingdom, not for the geography (etc) of anywhere else. The crown dependencies and overseas territories are not part of the United Kingdom, therefore they are not mentioned in any other subsection (religion, transport, law etc), but suddenly they make an appearance under the "Subdivisions and local government" section. Why? The crown dependencies and overseas territories are not subdivisions of the United Kingdom. They are not even part of the United Kingdom. --Mais oui! (talk) 09:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. They get a mention in the introduction that points out they are not included in the UK - they shouldn't be mentioned again. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 09:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this material could just be trimmed down and/or moved within the article rather than removed outright? Remember the lead also serves as a summary of the rest of the article. I don't think it does any harm as such, but agree its depth and position is a little objectionable. -- Jza84 · (talk) 11:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

UK no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why the **** did someone unite us together!!!!!!!!!!!! We are last in the Europe alphabetical order,and its Illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone send a letter to the president of the UK to de-unite us. Fila7345 (talk) 16:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)