Talk:Hillary Clinton

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Opinion on how things are being handled here

From user: Greenwinged: I suggest you people restore John Bolton, 7F, and others' comments. Trying to censor them only shows you are trying to censor the article. People can make up their own mind if the censored comments are any good or not —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenwinged (talk • contribs) 02:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments by sockpuppets of banned users trying to evade their bans are to be stricken from Wikipedia, regardless of their merit.Read the banning policy. Tvoz |talk 03:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Greenwinged is obviously the newest incarnation of Derek. Turtlescrubber 04:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The striking of 7F/MD12752/whatever sock manifestations is fine. I am less comfortable with Turtlescrubber's removal of John J. Bulten's comments. Yes, he obviously has a hang-up about HRC and it shows. Yes, he admitted he was trying to derail the FAC. Yes, even when he has a legitimate point about something in the article, his tone is uncivil-unto-obnoxious. But we've heard out worse than this guy in these talk pages; by its nature, this article isn't always going to attract model WP citizens. Unless it can be show that Bulten is editing in completely bad faith — such as being a sock, and while I agree his lifetime edit history is a bit suspicious for a purportedly new user, I haven't seen any real evidence for sockedness – it seems to me that we can deal with him here. Wasted Time R 11:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I think. Worry not, I don't have immediate further designs on this page. I tried to make a condensation-only edit in good faith, which speaks for itself, but not everyone regarded it as condensation-only. I will see y'all after I get through the Ron Paul suggestion list. But as I said, I did come on a shade too strong at the start, and I have apologized. Considering the Biblical careers of Jezebel and Athaliah might illumine your understanding of my discontent. Ciao. John J. Bulten 12:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, your condensation-only edit of the lead section, which people can see at [1], read like a Who's Who entry, trying to cram the most information into the fewest words possible. Or, as Tvoz said, like a telegram. While the article's prose no doubt needs to be tightened in numerous places, this was going too far. It also, as Tvoz said, introduced several errors, including suggesting that HRC was the country's ambassador to the UN and other countries and subsuming the cattles future controversy into the Clinton administration. I agree with Tvoz's backing out of this version of the lead. Wasted Time R 13:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've now restored the John J. Bulten comments in question. Wasted Time R 00:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter Paul

Considering his ties with the clintons, including allegedly being defrauded by Hilary, don't you think this article shoudl mention Peter Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_F._Paul) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.74.177 (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering that Paul's lawsuit against Hillary was thrown out for lack of evidence, and considering that Hillary's finance director was acquitted of charges, no it doesn't merit inclusion here. It is covered in the United States Senate election in New York, 2000 article, however. Wasted Time R 10:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Michael Lerner

Why no mention of Michael Lerner and Hillary's adoption of "The Politics of Meaning"?. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 04:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Very good point! I've recently been adding material on the evolution of her political thinking, and I was planning to include this. Will be in shortly ... Wasted Time R 10:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Now done. Wasted Time R 23:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm a member, why can't I edit the page?

Does someone have an answer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cromptonenator (talk • contribs) 08:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Cromptonenator, and welcome. It looks like you have a new account, and only accounts at least four days old can edit semi-protected articles. Until then, if you see something that needs changing, you can suggest it here on the talk page. --Bongwarrior 08:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

so true Hillarious Clintonista (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Lead

The lead section appears to be way to long, and way to detailed. How about something like this:

That's "too" long and "too" detailed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 19:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

"Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton (born October 26, 1947) is the junior United States Senator from New York, and a candidate for the Democratic nomination in the 2008 presidential election. She is married to Bill Clinton—the 42nd President of the United States—and was the First Lady of the United States from 1993 to 2001.

A native of Illinois, Hillary Rodham began her career as an influential lawyer after graduating from Yale Law School in 1973; she was named the first female partner at Rose Law Firm in 1979. She served as the First Lady of Arkansas from 1979 to 1981 and 1983 to 1992, during which she was active in a number of organizations concerning the welfare of children.

As First Lady of the United States, she took a more prominent position in policy matters than many before her. Her major initiative, the Clinton health care plan, failed to gain approval by the U.S. Congress in 1994, but she helped establish the State Children's Health Insurance Program and other legislation, notably the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997. During her tenure, Clinton's travels were extensive; she holds the record as being the most travled First Lady. She later became the first First Lady to be subpoenaed, testifying before a Federal grand jury as a consequence of the Whitewater scandal in 1996. She was never charged with any wrongdoing in this or several other investigations during the Clinton administration. The state of her marriage to Bill Clinton was the subject of considerable public discussion following the Lewinsky scandal in 1998.

Moving to New York, Clinton was elected to the United States Senate in 2000, the first time a First Lady was elected to public office and the first female Senator from that state. There she initially supported the George W. Bush administration on some foreign policy issues, which included voting for the Iraq War Resolution, but now opposes the administration on the Iraq War and most domestic issues. Nevertheless, she was re-elected by a wide margin in 2006. Long described as a polarizing figure in American politics, during 2007 she has consistently been the front-runner in polls for the 2008 Democratic nomination for President."

This is more concise, yet still provides a very thorough overview of the article. She probably was an influential lawyer, but that can be summed up without going into detail about her being one out of 100 (put that in the lawyer section). Plus, the "almost any before her" was POV and needs a cite; "many" works just fine. Ambassador abroad? Talk about pickling words! She traveled more than any other FL which definitely should be said (here's a cite: http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=38 - you have to scroll down a bit), but characterizing her as an "ambassador abroad" is just POV. Best, Happyme22 02:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Happyme, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, everyone has conflicting opinions about what should be in the lead, how much detail vs. generality it should have, whether it should have cites or merely summarize cited material in the article body, and so forth. During FAC I got comments that it was too vague and the User:BQZip01/FA Tips guidelines say to keep cites out of the lead (which I agree with). Furthermore, I hadn't yet gotten around to backing out some unwarranted additions that K157 had made to it. Anyway, I've now pulled some stuff and I've put your broke-travelled-record cite into the body of the article (can't be sure she still holds the record though, maybe Laura Bush has travelled more). Wasted Time R 17:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand; just wanted to help with the article. Thanks for listening. Best, Happyme22 01:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is editing ?

According to an article I read, Wikipedia is a very important web site among those giving information about our society etc, among the most visited. And I read that for Wikipedia articles where some organisations are very interested in what is written on major news and info sites, professional PR people might be editing. It is well known that the most important way of doing PR for something is making press and media write positive articles. Wikipedia is a kind of media where the readers edit themselves.
So, how many people that are professional PR people or at least getting paid for it are editing articles about the president candidates ? [13:25, 18 October 2007 BIL]

It's impossible to know for sure, but I don't think much editing is being done by PR people. You have to be pretty familiar with WP rules and customs to be successful on these kinds of high-profile articles; crude beginner attempts to delete or spin unfavorable material or to insert fluff usually won't stay in for long. And the content discussions and edit wars that do happen on these kinds of articles have the same "feel" as on all other kinds of WP articles, indicating it's regular WP editors who are involved. But I could be wrong; on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Wasted Time R 13:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

But to be really honest, I think he has a bit of point there. The article reads so smooth, hardly any edges appear, and its very (too) long too... :( Reads like an idealized "description" to me (but then again this is just my impression, I may be wrong) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.103.172 (talk) 23:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The person most responsible for the current state of the article — for good or for bad — is me, and I guarantee you that I'm not associated with the Clinton campaign or any other campaign, I'm not a PR person professional or otherwise and never have been, I don't work in the media or any related field and never have, and not only am I not getting paid for this, I have "spent" (euphemism for "squandered") many countless otherwise potentially useful or valuable hours on it. But thanks for your glowing assessment nonetheless. Wasted Time R 00:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

After all the polishing that's gone on, it's good to know that "hardly any edges" appear to a new reader. Good work, Wasted. (As for dogs on the net, woof.) Tvoz |talk 05:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe you, WastedTime, but isn't that what any intelligent PR person would write here? A little pointless to write that "guarantee"? 153.1.30.135 (talk) 12:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

infoboxes

Consensus was reached (see Talk archives) to not have infobox entries for LSC, CDF, or anything other than Senator/First Lady US; the bottom boxes also would not inlude all of the legal posts, but would also include the FL of Arkansas. Having the others bogs down the page, making it harder to find the really notable material. There is ample mention of these posts in the text - they should not be re-added to the boxes unless a new consensus is reached here. I removed them to conform to the discussions that took place here. Tvoz |talk 01:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I believe a new conversation should be started in regards to the infoboxes. Donna Shalala and other CDF and LSC Chairs have info- and succession boxes that are quite similar. The LSC - a role in presidential admins. - seems quite prominent as does the national CDF. These are imporant legal - and in the LSC's case, quite political - offices and are usually broght up in writings about Mrs. Clinton.ILDB 03:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Only because the editor(s) campaigning for these infoboxes and succession boxes put them there! Indeed, such editor(s) have created stubby bio articles for LSC and CDF heads, just for the purpose of having blue links in these boxes. I don't quite understand the compulsion in this regard ... no one is denying that LSC and CDF are important, and the HRC article gives them their weight. That doesn't mean they are box-worthy. Wasted Time R 03:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I moved it out of Donna Shalala's infobox into the text where it has appropriate weight. As for Hillary, I don't understand the compulsion either, but feel strongly that simplicity and streamlined is the way to go here for infobox and the bottom boxes (what are they called?). Infobox entries should be limited to the most significant positions an individual has held - in this case, clearly Senator and FL of the US. LSC and CDF are given their proper weight in the article. Tvoz |talk 05:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we can find a compromise that both sides can agree on. I propose LSC Chairwomanship in the infobox, but not board member. Board member and CDF Chair can go in legal offices in succession box. It is an important office, and only Senator and First Lady of Arkansas and U.S. is in the succession boxes. I believe that has much more to do with her husband's carrer. Those other offices are very prominent and deserve space in the succession boxes.K157 02:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree, again - we went over this a while back, and this is not a matter of compromise. Neither LSC nor CDF should be in the infoboxes or the succession boxes. Her political career is defined by First Lady and Senator now - at this stage those other posts recede in importance, and it's not clear they ever would have been "infobox-worthy". They are covered in the text appropriately and should not be in the infoboxes or succession boxes. It is too hard to find the really important information when minor positions are included. And I don't think we need to worry about her career being eclipsed by her husband's. Tvoz |talk 03:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If Ark FL deserves two boxes, then LSC and CDF definetly do, if only succession boxes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 02:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Both deserve space at the bottom boxes. LSC definetly merits an infobox at the top, at least the chairwomanship. Perhaps also Legal Counsel to U.S. HoR J C; it's often listed with sen. FL and LSC as a political office. Sometimes only w/ FL and Senator; Mdmp888 02:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This is adequately covered in the article's text. Tvoz |talk 02:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this consensus? ILDB 13:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this merits inclusion in WP:LAME for "Lamest thing socks were created for ever!" Wasted Time R 13:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is consensus - it is agreed that we should include infoboxes and succession boxes for LSC Char and CDF Chair; by the way, if Lynne Cheney is important enough to get an infobox for 6th Chair of the National Endowment for the Humanities! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 01:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

No, there is no consensus for these additions - what is agreed is that this material does not belong in infoboxes or succession boxes, and it is also agreed that sockpuppetry to support oneself is a blockable offense. Tvoz |talk 09:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Why can't these be included?

Assignments

1. Committee on Budget (2001-2003)
2. Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001-present)
   Subcommittee Assignments: Clean Air, Wetlands, Private Property, and Nuclear Safety | Fisheries, Wildlife, and Water | Superfund, Waste Control, and Risk Assessment
3. Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions(2001-present)
   Subcommittee Assignments: Aging | Children and Families
4. Committee on Armed Services (2003-present)
   Subcommittee Assignments: Airland | Emerging Threats and Capabilities | Readiness and Management Support
5. Special Committee on Aging.
6. Chairman of Steering and Outreach Committee (2003-2007)
7. Vice Chairman of Committee Outreach (2007-present)
8. Chairwoman of the Senate Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (2007-present)

I thought the purpose of Wiki was to provide accurate and thorough information?

If you want citations, just say so, they are readily available. My goal here to provide the most accurate account of Senator Clinton's career, not just selectively choose what I should or should not put in the article. [01:31, 23 October 2007 MasterRegal]

The issue was one of space. However, I am in the process of splitting out the Senate section into a separate article, and I am including your additionsa above into the new article. Wasted Time R 02:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the Democratic caucus committees need to be separated from the Senate committees if they're to be included - it's really apples and oranges. Tvoz |talk 03:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Now present in Senate career of Hillary Rodham Clinton#Assignments. Wasted Time R 13:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

inclusion of campaign logos

from the text i submitted when requesting temporary unprotection of Fred Thompson:

having reviewed the articles for the 2008 presidential candidates, i realized that the majority of the articles did not have campaign logos inserted in them. a minority of articles do have them. a campaign logo/poster/image, by definition, is intended to promote the candidate. promotion implies POV. the inclusion of these images is inherently POV. i've removed these images from a handful of articles, and would like to have the image removed from this article - in that way, all candidate articles will be represented equally, in service to NPOV.

with the re-inclusion of clinton's campaign logo, hers is now the only presidential candidate biography that has such a logo. i assert that either all candidate bio's have such logos, or none. the latter is better, per the justification above. Anastrophe 18:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Using the campaign logo is simply using an image associated with the campaign and candidate. It helps illustrate the article, and these articles are often in need of such illustrations. Yes, the logo is intended to promote the candidate, but so what? We put corporate logos on articles about corporations and we put albums covers on articles about music albums and we put movie posters on articles about films, and they're all designed to promote as well. The promotion involved is innocuous and does not constitute the article endorsing the campaign; it's merely using the image to describe the campaign. In some cases the logos are informative, such as this one just using one word "Hillary", which commentators have noted; you get to see what the candidates are trying to stress. As for your argument that not all candidate articles have the logo in them, a better solution is to add the logo for those that don't! Not all corporation articles have logos ... if Coca-Cola had one and Pepsi-Cola didn't, that wouldn't be an argument for deleting the former. Wasted Time R 18:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

noted, and these are good points. however - for one thing, not all candidates even have logos (mostly the minor party candidates). as well, i'd submit that later in the campaigns, as the candidates winnow down to just a few, we're likely to have more pointed illustrations in the heat of the campaigns - "vote for Hillary, she won't destroy the country like Giuliani" (pure speculation on my part obviously). that would be 'just an illustration' from the campaign. but it wouldn't be appropriate for inclusion, unless it were notable above and beyond the mudslinging that inevitably ensues in such campaigns. re your comment on my talk page on seeking consensus, i appreciate that, but this also falls into the WP:BOLD realm, and has started such discussion, which is a fine way for things to evolve, in my opinion. i'm not going to do any more reversions of images. i see your point, though i still lean towards exclusion of the images rather than inclusion - if only on the previous consideration that at the time i edited the articles, only eight of eighteen major party candidates had logos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anastrophe. (talk • contribs) 18:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The logo in question is historical - it was used for her 2006 senate reelection campaign, and has nothing to do with her current bid for president. --Stephan Schulz 18:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

'nothing to do with' is a bit of an overstatement. her presidential campaign poster differs only in the inclusion of "for president". the logo otherwise is identical. Anastrophe 19:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

If you aren't familiar with American politics, campaign logos remain positive, even if the campaign gets into mudslinging, negative ads, etc. Furthermore, your argument that all the candidate articles have to "be the same" with respect to this or any other criteria doesn't really work. This being Wikipedia, the candidate articles are all different: some are well-written, some are a mess, some are much longer than others, some are FA or GA and most are not, some have broken out 'Political positions' articles and some do not, and so forth. If your boldness extends to removing all aspects of articles which are not present in all the others, your lowest-common-denominator result at the end is going to be pretty threadbare. Wasted Time R 18:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

i am familiar with american politics, having voted in every presidential election since 1980. yes, the articles all differ in quality, that's not at issue, nor is making all articles match the lowest common denominator a fair summary of what i did or plan to do (and is an unfair characterization, IMO). campaign posters and logos are created for what purpose? to promote the candidate. they are not synonymous with company logos - when a new company is being formed, do they generate a logo, then once they're established, eliminate it? the logo's purpose is the get the candidate's name into people's consciousness, and by the very common practice of saturation presentation of these logos (plastered everywhere), it's explicit that the point is to promote the candidate. if every article had a logo, and all were the same size, and in the same position in the article, then it would be approaching NPOV. what initially started this for me was seeing the logo on the mitt romney page increased in size - and finding an assortment of sizes on other pages. in the mitt romney article, it was clearly pushing POV, as at one point the entire presidential campaign portion and logo were moved by an editor to the top of the page. Anastrophe 19:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Apologies for misunderstanding who you are, your user page said you are a professor in Belgium ... then it says you are somebody else ... I dunno what it says. But your description "get the [entity]'s name into people's consciousness, and by the very common practice of saturation presentation of these logos (plastered everywhere), it's explicit that the point is to promote the [entity]" is exactly what corporate logos do - look again at Coca-Cola or NBC or Allstate - we've all seen these images zillions of times. Same purpose, yet we include them in those articles. And if the articles can't show the logos, are they also forbidden from quoting campaign slogans and speeches? Your understanding of NPOV in this context is faulty; User:Morphh below has it right. Wasted Time R 20:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

sigh. i understand your point re corporate logos; but the argument doesn't map 1:1. my concern is editors attempting to subtly push their candidate through inclusion of what is essentially a form of 'swag' - shall we have images of 'hillary for president' lapel pins, bumper stickers, screen savers, etc etc? they all are also just 'illustrations'. more candidate articles do not have logos included than do have logos included. if all articles have logos, all logos are precisely the same size, and in the same part of the article, then it's appropriate, and not pushing a POV. i still maintain it's better to not have them than to have them - the logos add no information to the article that is of any particular value. my understanding of NPOV is not faulty; other editors have demonstrably pushed POV by such actions as making the logo enormous. i'm trying to err on the side of avoiding such temptations to push POV. as i've stated, i'm not going to involve myself in actually removing or restoring logos. the discussion has been valuable in my opinion. hopefully either all articles or none of the articles will have logos, eventually. Anastrophe 21:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My post from Huckabee's article - Images don't have to be "neutral". If they illustrate the content of the topic under discussion, that is sufficient for inclusion. I'm sure many articles would like to pull pictures because they present the topic in a positive or negative light, but the purpose of the image is to illustrate the content. The content is what falls under NPOV policy and even then the NPOV rule simply does not prohibit the use of biased sources, biased images, or biased material, as odd as that may sound. The NPOV rule instead means that Wikipedia itself does not take a position within the article that "this source is correct" or "that source is wrong". NPOV relates to how the material is presented. Your removal of the image is inappropriate and uniformity across candidates is not a justification for such a removal. Each article grows at its own pace and there is no rule on uniformity for you to assert such. Morphh ^(talk) 18:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Morph and Wasted on this - the inclusion of campaign logos is appropriate, regardless of which other articles have them. There is an assumption here that is false: that the articles are here to promote the candidacies. For example, I actively edit articles on at least six individuals who are running for President - and occasionally edit at least another 6 or 7 - plus the associated sub articles, spouse articles, parents' articles, etc.: not as a supporter, but as an editor. As Wasted said, the articles vary greatly. I think it would be great if they all were up there at GA or FA quality, but that takes an enormous amount of focused work and not all of them receive that amount or quality of attention. We shouldn't remove material from one because another one doesn't have something similar - we will end up with a lot of poor articles rather than a few brilliant, many average, and a few mediocre. I think anyone editing these articles responsibly wants to raise the level of the mediocre ones, regardless of who the subject is, and that's a good place to focus some attention - but not by removing elements of the good ones because the poor ones don't have them. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about supporters making logos too large in any article - from what I've experienced, that wouldn't last too long, because of all of the eyes watching. Tvoz |talk 03:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

the discussion on the huckabee article however has dovetailed with fair-use, and lack of same for the logos. you may wish to read that discussion as well. i will add that i'm not sure who you believe is assuming that articles are here to promote the candidates. i never said as much, and i don't think any other editor has either. what we have suggested is that articles are fodder for supporters to attempt to promote the candidate, however subtly or ham-handedly. Anastrophe 03:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look at Huckabee, thanks. Sorry, I misunderstood you when you said "my concern is editors attempting to subtly push their candidate". The only point I wanted to make about that is that I don't look at these as articles about "candidates". I look at them as biographies of individuals - their whole lives and careers - whose presidential campaigns are only one aspect. So I don't view the inclusion of these logos as partisan - I support their inclusion on Thompson and CLinton, and any others where the editors want them. Tvoz |talk 04:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

i share the same view of the articles myself. i'm not partisan for any of the candidates, major or minor - i've seen enough presidential elections in my lifetime to know that the 80/20 rule applies: 80% of what the candidates say during the campaign is, for lack of a better term, crap. so i ignore the campaigns almost entirely, almost until the end, being rather more interested in their record on policy before they were seeking new office. but, that's a metadiscussion for another time. i see the use of logos as just opening the door for partisan abuse. all the logos are trivially easy to see by simply visiting the candidate's websites, if one so desires. they add nothing of particular informational value to the article. Anastrophe 06:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, we haven't had that particular problem here - we have lots of people watching the article, and reverting when needed. So - Anastrophe, you said that you are not going to get involved in removing or restoring logos any more, just want to discuss it - that's always welcome. The 2006 Senate race logo that was on this page, it seems to me, really doesn't even have much relevance to this conversation (although admittedly it doesn't say "Senate" on it) - it was from the Senate campaign site, available for download. No one has raised any fair use problems with it. ThuranX came over from Huckabee where there are indeed some big problems going on (about POV editing) and removed it from here without discussion, despite the edit summaries that preceded his/her edit - I object to that. Whatever the real issues that are going on over there, and there are some big ones, don't seem to be relevant here, and this logo has nothing to do with it. In fact this article has been in FAC discussions for the last few weeks and no one there had any problem with that logo, and that is a pretty thorough bunch who were going over every pixel, comma, and space. So I reinstated the logo where we had it - the sense here seems to be that it is ok. But of course we can continue discussion. Tvoz |talk 06:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

NPC Sorority

Didn't she belong into a sorority in college? If so, I think it is notable in mentioning it in the article. Miranda 06:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Didn't belong to one, as far as I know. Wasted Time R 11:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I think she was, because she was offered honorary membership into Alpha Kappa Alpha, but declined due to an unknown reason. There is a rule that members of NPC sororities can't apply to NPHC sororities. Maybe it's in her biography? Miranda 00:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have Living History out of the library right now, so I can't check, but you're welcome to do so ... it doesn't seem like something she would have done. Wasted Time R 00:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

TooLong Quite long

I think the article is a little bit too long. I understand that you want to provide a lot of information, but its a bit hard to read... maybe different sections can be pulled out into standalone articles? [23:18, 29 October 2007 80.108.103.172]

We already have at least eight standalone articles out of this one, as you can see by searching for occurrences of "Main article:" in the text. But I take your comment seriously, it reflects some of the FAC comments as well. Wasted Time R 00:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Propose to add a new section titled 'Controversies'

There have been several controversies surrounding Hillary Clinton. For ex: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUtFgO8foY5-Gy8CFMqcRyGxtxJQD8SJ7AV00

There are more controversies, which are important to mention, in the interest of NPOV.

Please respond if you see a reason not to add the controversies section. TwakTwik 03:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed at great length and tried several ways: the consensus reached (see the archives) was that we do not want a separate controversies section or article - it was agreed that reliably sourced controversies should be integrated into the text and notes of the main article where appropriate and in separate daughter articles where appropriate. This has been done, and many, many controversies both big and small are included and well-integrated in the set of articles. Tvoz |talk 04:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Like she said. Regarding your particular issue, the Peter Paul/Hollywood fundraiser/Paul v. Clinton business is discussed in several places: United_States_Senate_election_in_New_York,_2000#Hollywood_fundraiser (which now includes the AP article you cite), Gala Hollywood Farewell Salute to President Clinton, Paul v. Clinton, and if you want background on the figure at the center of this affair, Peter F. Paul. Wasted Time R 11:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. "Controversy" and/or "Criticism" sections are almost always ill-advised and usually become troll-magnets. Hillary Clinton has a long deep public history, and having a "controversy" section is just going to be an invitation for Clinton-bashing trolls to insert absolutely every alledged (and substantiated) controversy and criticism of her. And while I agree that there is a lot to criticize about her, and she has been involved in her share controversis, for this encyclopedia entry, we can and should mention only the most relevant of these. Detailing every single controversy, criticism, and praise of her would make a great book, but a bad encyclopedia entry. Yilloslime (t) 15:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Its very interesting that the leading Republican candidate Rudy Giuliani gets a long Controversies section, but the leading Democratic candidate is protected from controversies by Wikipedia . I see it as POV. TwakTwik 21:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Huckabee gets a nice long controversy section too. "Funny" how Hillary gets her's whitewatered ... er ... whitewashed here. --24.6.29.122 08:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Mactographer, the solution for this is to dismantle the Huckabee controversies section. In fact, looking at it, it's a really bad one: the two biggest subsections, 'Fiscal record' and 'Illegal immigration', don't belong even if you believe in controversies sections — they are policy disagreements! By definition, virtually everything a politician does is opposed by somebody, that doesn't make it a 'controversy' in this sense. Ugh. You've proved our point — controversies sections tend to be awful, and no one should have them. Wasted Time R 12:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm just sayin'... if Wikipedia wants to TRULY be NPOV, they have to practice it with all the presidential candidates. They should even bend over backwards to do it. But since it's edited by every Tom, Dick and Schmoe (myself included) it's probably impossible. --Mactographer 07:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no "they" in this case. There is no guidance from on high (User:Jimbo or anyone else) on what presidential candidates' articles should look like. All that you see now — the "XYZ presidential campaign" subarticles, the "Political positions of XYZ" subarticles, the "Controversies" sections or subarticles or lack thereof — was cooked up by individual editors working on individual candidates' articles, and copied to one degree or another by other individual editors working on other individual candidates' articles. There's little consistency across the "XYZ presidential campaign" articles, for example — Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2008 and Mike Gravel presidential campaign, 2008 go into great detail about each debate appearance and media appearance of those candidates, while John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 and John Edwards presidential campaign, 2008 have almost nothing in that area. And so on. So if you are waiting until "they" dismantle and disburse the Mike Huckabee controversies section, you'll have a long wait; you should do it yourself. Wasted Time R 12:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's bad that they are handled differently. I would support the dismantling of the Giuliani controversies section and daughter article to integrate the appropriate contents into the mainline of the articles, as was done here. But you are wrong to say that Hillary is "protected from controversies by Wikipedia": they are all here, from senior thesis to cattle futures to Whitewater to Travelgate to Suha Arafat to Norman Hsu and many more, it's just that they are just in the Hillary articles in their appropriate chronological and subject matter place. It's just like you were reading a regular biographical book on her. Wasted Time R 21:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You are talking about changing majority of biographies, since Controversies seem to be the norm- for ex: check out George W. Bush's page. I think we just need to add a Controversies section to Hillary Clinton's page to make the article NPOV. I would like to add a POV tag to the entire article for now. TwakTwik 23:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the Giuliani or Bush page, and I agree that we should strive for consistency, but I think the solution here is to improve the Giuliani and Bush pages by incorporating the controversy sections, rather than "worsening" this article by creating a controversy section. I also think a POV tag is ill advised at this stage of the game. Where is the POV you see? What's not being covered in the article that should be, or what's given undue weight? Let's discuss first, tag later. Yilloslime (t) 23:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

TwakTwik, controversies sections are not the norm for high-quality articles. Look at Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, Wesley Clark, and Barack Obama, all of which have achieved Featured Article status. Or for older subjects, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, and Theodore Roosevelt, again all FA. Look at Nancy Reagan, which is currently being considered for FA, or Ron Paul, which was recently up for FA and fell short due to other reasons. None of these articles have controversies sections! Indeed, I don't know of any FA article that does have one; I don't think it would pass muster. Wasted Time R 23:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see Bill Clinton, Al Gore. May be the discussion should be about Wikipedia standards - how do we get an opinion on standard?.

Its POV right now, because the controversies are hidden inside longer text for Hillary and seem to protect her image better than other current figures such as Rudy Giuliani.

Given Wikipedia's reputation, many voters will refer to it to read up on candidates, and we should be extra careful to ensure that all current presidential candidates are projected in an NPOV way.

I will not add POV tag yet, but if any other editor also views this as a problem, we should apply POV tag.

TwakTwik 00:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, the solution is to bring the other articles up to higher standards, not to drag this one down to their level. And slapping a POV-tag onto this article b/c it lacks a controversies section would be an improper use of that tag. Yilloslime (t) 00:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

And quite pointy... There is nothing POV about integrating the controversies related to an article's subject into the existing prose of the article... Matter of fact it is more NPOV as it does not give undue weight to either the positive or negative aspects of the subject. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? There is such an obvious bias and agenda schema between the numerous political entries. It is rather embarrassing to read. Please reconsider the standards policies. I have a general policy mandated to my graduate students - which is - to refrain from using Wikipedia references in the bibliography section of their papers - largely because of the inconsistencies. I've just edited some nonsense (jibberish; non-political) from the John Bolton site. We need to stop placing politicians (all persuasions) on pedestals ... the OxfordDen ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxfordden (talk • contribs) 03:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Your policy towards your graduate students is correct: Wikipedia articles are not appropriate as references for academic or scholarly work. But I would be interested in your pointing us to some real scholarly works that have chapters named "Controversies" that are collecting grounds for all negative material or allegations about historical or political figures. Most scholarly works I'm familiar with integration such material into mainline narrative text, just as we do here. Wasted Time R 12:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it's worth noting that the Controversies of Rudy Giuliani article is currently being has been dismantled, which will alleviate the complaints of User:TwakTwik and others that the existence of controversies articles is aligned along party lines. Wasted Time R 12:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Wasted Time R 18:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not see any reason to dismantle aticles, such as the Controversies of Rudy Giuliani. To the contrary, one should create article Controversies of Hillary Rodham Clinton or even Citicism of Hillary Rodham Clinton. Let's keep readers informed. That is the purpose of WP.Biophys 20:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:Five Pillars does not establish an unfettered goal of "keeping readers informed." Wasted Time R (talk) 12:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Article title

Just wondering, why isn't this article located at Hillary Clinton. Official naming conventions are (WP:NC) to use the most common name, unless it conflicts with something else. Now maybe it's just me, but I don't think I've ever heard any news source refer to Clinton as "Hillary Rodham Clinton" (just as "Hillary Clinton"). So why the long name? Hillary Clinton doesn't conflict with anything else. Just to demonstrate, Google shows 7,310,000 hits for "Hillary Clinton", while showing only 1,640,000 for "Hillary Rodham Clinton". - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 14:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Hillary_Rodham_Clinton/Archive_5#Requested_move. And you're wrong about news sources, The New York Times always uses the full name in its first reference to her, see today's story for instance, as well as its profile page on her. Wasted Time R 15:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm not wrong. I said "I've never seen it". Which I hadn't until now ;) - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 13:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ghostwriting

Should there not be an entry about the controversial authorship of 'It Takes a Village' and other books - which were not written by Mrs. Clinton? ... Oxfordden 03:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This is incorporated in detail in the appropriate subarticles: Living History and It Takes a Village. Tvoz |talk 08:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Middle name

I am sure this has been discussed, but why is Hillary's middle name used in the name of the article? Most other politicians seems just to have their first and last. KnightLago 13:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's been discussed many times, and several times right above this! Sigh. And it's not her middle name, it's her unmarried name. Wasted Time R 13:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I need more sleep, I completely missed that. Thanks for the explanation. KnightLago 13:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"A new kind of first lady"?

Not really neutral POV. rich 23:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If the section establishes that she was the first FL to hold a post-graduate degree, the first to have her own professional career up until entering the White House, the first to have an office in the West Wing, and the first to hold a formal policy portfolio, then why is this section title not accurate and neutral? It doesn't mean she was a good FL, or a bad FL, just that she had several characteristics that no previous FL had had. Wasted Time R 00:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"An uncharacteristic First Lady" might be better. "new kind" is actually inaccurate - she was a female and wife of the president, so clearly she was not a "new kind" of first lady. "Differences with past First Ladies" would be even more accurate. Anastrophe 01:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"An uncharacteristic First Lady" it is. Wasted Time R 01:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

new direction in 2nd term

During her 2nd term, unlike the 1st, she is being accused of flip-flopping a lot. So I have tried to use the most neutral language and the most reliable left or center news sources to document it. That's really the fairest thing to do rather than paint a glowing picture of the senator. Truth is better than untruth. It doesn't have to slam her.Jessica Bell 01:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Campaign to-and-fro belongs in Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008, probably under the "Campaign developments" section. And the drivers-licenses-for-illegals business is already covered in there, under the "Poor debate performance" subsection. Be aware that "flip flop" charges in recent political campaigns are dime-a-dozen; only the ones that seem to cause real damage to a campaign need be mentioned. Objective accounts of HRC's varying views on an issue may be covered in the appropriate section of Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton. Wasted Time R 02:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This one seems notable. The sources are reliable. The person (Tvoz) who got rid of it did not make any attempt to explain why he got rid of it, not a good excuse nor a lame excuse. Jessica Bell 18:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree Tvoz should have given a better explanation; maybe she was in a hurry. But I've given you an explanation above. The main article is focused on Hillary's life as a whole, and not much on the 2008 campaign. That is covered much more in a separate article. In particular, recent charges of inconsistency are dealt with in Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_presidential_campaign,_2008#Poor_debate_performance_in_Philadelphia. Wasted Time R 18:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

To be further clear, the inconsistencies you raised don't have anything to do with her being a senator, first term or second. They have to do with her possibly being a president (Iran and torture), and have to do with a "what do you think of" debate question (NY state drivers licenses for illegals, which as a federal figure she has nothing to do with). That's why they don't belong where you put them, or in the way that you framed them. Wasted Time R 18:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

She said these things while she was a senator. So it's senate related. Also you are listed as a person who is guarding the article about sources. All the sources listed are solid. If you don't like the sources, please say so. If you don't like neutrally phrased semi-negative information, then look at Wikipedia's rules about editing. Thank you. Jessica Bell 18:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quibbling about the sources, nor am I objecting to negative material — I wrote the whole section in the campaign article about her lousy debate performance and its consequences. I'm saying you are not aware of the structure of the HRC articles. Her positions on Iran and torture belong in Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton, included pointing out any contradictions. That's what that article is there for! The Senate sections in the main article, and in Senate career of Hillary Rodham Clinton, are for votes she casts, committees she belongs to, stuff like that. The drivers license issue belongs, and is already covered, in Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_presidential_campaign,_2008#Poor_debate_performance_in_Philadelphia. You need to look around all the HRC articles and see where any new piece of material is most appropriate. Wasted Time R 18:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Right, I was in a hurry and should have spelled out what the problems were. At least one of the sources was blank when I looked at it and another was a transcript of the debate, not a third-party analysis of it which is what I meant by OR. I didn't look at the rest because it was clear that the whole section was misplaced and wrong for this article. Tvoz |talk 22:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

And, as I suspected when I saw the edit and comments, this is yet another sockpuppet of Dereks1x, now indefinitely blocked in evasion of his ban. Striking his comments now. Tvoz |talk 04:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

And just as an FYI to those that are not familiar with Dereks1x, expect two or three more socks to appear in the coming days. That isn't to say anyone that appears wanting to add negative information to the article is a sock, but just expect more socks. If anyone is interested in finding out how to identify Dereks1x socks, take a look through his checkuser requests. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There's always a first time...Tvoz |talk 05:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

statistics in "political positions' section

I think we're reaching diminishing returns with these statistics - perhaps it should be converted to a prose sentence or two with a footnote that has the numbers, or move it out of here altogether. But I think the section as it now is is losing comprehension. Tvoz |talk 23:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I aggregated the Almanac numbers into averages across the four years, and moved the yearly numbers into a footnote. (Had previously done the same for some of the interest group rankings.) I don't believe this section should be prose, it's much easier to parse like this. And I like the section in general: it takes a different angle to the subject than its daughter article does, giving extra interest and variety to the reader. Wasted Time R 02:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I like the aggregation - much improved. I agree with you about not turning the whole section into prose - I just was having some trouble with reading the statistics, so I added some words in there: see what you think. If I inadvertently changed the meaning, or you think it's too many words, I'm not insisting on my edit, but I do find it less cryptic this way, even though it's a little repetitive. My eyes glaze over when a run of numbers are presented, but maybe that's just me. Tvoz |talk 05:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Your changes definitely improved it, thanks. Wasted Time R 11:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Missing info

The policy section of the FL sec. is shockingly short. It neglects to mention her chairing of the Foster Care reform (Foster Care Independence Act of 1997) or any of her foreign policy (i.e. South Asia tour). Perhaps a new page is needed such as the one showing her senate career.ILDB (talk) 02:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Fine, create a new page. But the main article is already too long and cannot bear the additional weight of documenting her "foreign policy". Wasted Time R (talk) 03:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hillary not an usual spelling

Wikipedia itself lists 10 women other than Hillary Clinton with that first name, but only two figures with the name "Hilary," both saints. The US Census Bureau lists Hillary as the #788 most popular female name in America and Hilary as the #733. That is not a significant difference, and I don't think makes Hillary THAT unusual of a name. Hillary as a last name is #23755 and Hilary does not show up in their records. You can explore yourself here: http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/namesearch.html. We don't have room here for for Hillary's "foreign policy" but there's room to note an unusual spelling that's not really all that unusual? Apartcents (talk) 21:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

We have two sources that say that "Hillary" was an unusual spelling for a girl in 1947, when she was named. Your Census Bureau stats don't directly contradict that; naming practices change pretty rapidly in America. As for Hillary's "foreign policy" when she was First Lady, I'm still skeptical that there was one or what its significance was, but am willing to be convinced otherwise by appropriate citings. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you're right. It could have been vastly different in the 40s. There are still three contemporaries of her with the spelling: Hillary Carlip, Hillary Smith, Hillary Waugh, and none with Hilary. Nonetheless, I suppose its not all that important. If I come across 1940s census data I'll be sure to let you guys know. As for the foreign policy stuff, its not a big deal for me, but if I come across something that would indicate there was something serious about her foreign policy as First Lady or Senator I'll let you guys know too. I wonder if Obama and Edwards pages have foreign policy sections. Something to look into. Thx! Apartcents (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

As senator, sure. Such sections are usually in daughter articles: see Political_positions_of_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton#Foreign_policy, Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama#Foreign_policy, and Political_positions_of_John_Edwards#Foreign_Policy. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep I actually finished checking those out before, thanks for the links. I thought about the names some more, 1947 is the front-end of the baby boomer generation, and people born in her generation make up a vast majority of the U.S. population? I think the Census Bureau data (which is from 1990, which in this case makes it more relevant) would trump the New York Times and Snopes. What do you think? Apartcents (talk) 22:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Where's the balance?

The GWB article is nothing but a long list of negative unsourced BLP violations, why is it that this page paints hillary as a saint like figure like the kind propigated by the media?--—(Kepin)^{RING THE LIBERTY BELL} 22:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering: have you actually read the article? Whitewater, senior thesis, her clothes and appearance, talking to Eleanor Roosevelt, Travelgate, cattle futures, failed healthcare, being an enabler to her husband's infidelity, poor debate performance, Norman Hsu, polarizing, unfavorables - and I didn't even look at the footnotes or the subarticles, and am sure I didn't get them all in any case. Saint-like? I don't think so. If you are unhappy with the George Bush article, discuss it on its talk page. This article is sourced and balanced. Tvoz |talk 00:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and Hillary's negatives are all buried in the body of the article. Purposely made so you have to hunt for them. GWB has his put in a tidy little category with sub-categories AND poll graphics. Same goes for Huckabee and Tancredo and used to be the case for Giuliani, McCain, and most of the others. Could it be some of the Clinton sock puppet staffers are keeping busy over here too? --Mactographer (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to hit the digital player that contains the standard answer to this response. A criticism section is an indication of a poorly written article and the articles in which such a section exists should have a discussion started to integrate those sections into the other sections of that article. There is absolutely no reason why a criticism should exist at all, they are little more than glorified trivia section and should be treated in the exact same manner that trivia sections are treated here. If you have an issue with the layout of other articles, please take it up on the discussion page of that article and don't bring it up here. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I withdraw the ill advised portion of my comment. For the rest of my reply, go here.--Mactographer (talk) 00:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)\

I left a longer version of this on my talk page,[2] but the short version is.. It is not the responsibility of the editors of this article to fix the problems on other articles, it is up to the editors of those articles to fix them. However, if you wish to take it upon yourself to improve those other articles, let us know and we'll be glad to assist you. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. I've dismantled the 'Controversies'/'Criticisms' subarticles/sections on six 2008 presidential candidates — Clinton, Giuliani, McCain, Biden, Hunter, Richardson. Three Dems, three GOPers. I've done heavy biographical work towards improving the articles of five political figures who are candidates — Clinton, McCain, Giuliani, Gravel, Hunter. Again, no partisan alignment. I've done all sorts of grunt work for keeping the presidential campaign subarticles up to date, including for Obama, HRC's mortal enemy. I wrote the Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_presidential_campaign,_2008#Poor_debate_performance_in_Philadelphia section, which covers in great detail the moment when HRC's campaign began to falter. I've argued with the Ron Paul editors and that's more difficult than any of the rest of this! I don't work for any campaign and I don't volunteer for any campaign and I haven't contributed to any campaign. And for my troubles I get called a "Clinton sock puppet staffer". I picked my username three years ago and it's still just as accurate now. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts, Wasted Time. Just for the record, I wasn't directing my sock puppet comment to ANYONE in particular, least of all you. --Mactographer (talk) 10:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I'm closing this request, as it doesn't seem to have been made through WP:Requested moves and thus no admin is going to close it for us. It's been open for two and a half weeks now, with diminishing new input. Those opposing the move outnumber those supporting it by about 2 to 1; there is clearly no consensus to move it. This is a result consistent with previous requests for moves, such as this one, which was made through RfM and closed by an admin. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

---

Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton — Most people refer to her as just Hillary Clinton. That's what she now refers to herself during the primary campaign. Most media refer to her as Hillary Clinton. Other women on WP don't have their maiden names in their titles. —Tocino 02:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support I'm the person who requested move after all. -- Tocino 02:03, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose This has been discussed before; a request for move was done earlier this year and decisively defeated, see Talk:Hillary_Rodham_Clinton/Archive_5#Requested_move. Hillary Rodham Clinton is her official name, see her official Senate page and her signature there. This was also the name she announced that she preferred when she became First Lady in 1993, see [3]. Regarding the current presidential campaign, she's been trying to keep it short, and while sometimes she does use just "Hillary Clinton", in fact in most of her literature she's just "Hillary", no last name at all, for example see her campaign bio at [4]. The serious media generally refer to her as Hillary Rodham Clinton on first mention, see for example any New York Times article, such as [5]. The Times also uses Hillary Rodham Clinton to title its profile page on her. Wasted Time R 05:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose For all the reasons Wasted Time R has summarized. This has been discussed at great length and nothing has changed - her official name and signature are Hillary Rodham Clinton. Hillary Clinton is of course a redirect, so anyone leaving off the Rodham gets directly to this page. This is not a question of including a woman's "maiden name" - this is the name she goes by, as many women do. No valid reason for changing this has been given.Tvoz |talk 07:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose First, because Hillary Rodham Clinton is her own preferred naming, second, because it is the name of initial mention in the news and so will be the standard naming for reference and archivng of news and information. A weak third reason: this has been voted on before, and settled, and the previous voting result should itself carry weight. CouldOughta 14:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Based primarily on her signature as used in the Senate. --StuffOfInterest 15:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose It is her full name that she prefers to be called Blaze33541 (talk) 05:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Per the naming conventions, which say that the article should be named what the greatest number of people would recognize it as and suggests just first and last names. It does not matter how she signs or what she calls herself, most people call her just Hillary Clinton. KnightLago (talk) 04:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Per KnightLago's reasoning. Slydevil (talk) 23:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Wasted Time R. She goes by Hillary Rodham Clinton. This should be the end of the story. Yilloslime (t) 01:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Per New York Times and herself. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 16:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support Per KnightLago's reasoning. Jaxfl (talk) 03:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Legal name she's using over our opinion of what her name should be. Mbisanz (talk) 09:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support - Per established naming conventions, "Hillary Clinton" is more popular. ~ UBeR (talk) 09:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Wasted Time R. Ironically we wouldn't need to be having this discussion were it not for the attitude of people from Arkansas in the 70-80s but anyway Nil Einne (talk) 17:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Google hits: 13,800,000 results for Hillary Clinton. Just 1,770,000 results for Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Google News hits: 41,966 hits for Hillary Clinton. 21,154 hits for Hillary Rodham Clinton. --Tocino 17:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Google hits is not a determinant by itself. We call our article Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, even though Google hits for that are easily outnumbered for Google hits for Jacqueline Kennedy, Jackie Kennedy, and other variants. Wasted Time R 17:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Christine Todd Whitman is another example. Gets more Google hits as Christine Whitman or Christie Whitman, but those are not what the article is named. She, like Hillary, retains her original last name as part of her current name, and so do we. Wasted Time R 23:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Christine Todd Whitman is a poor example because most people call her by her full name. That is how she is known. This is not the case for Hillary. She is known by most people just as Hillary Clinton. KnightLago (talk) 00:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No, when she was governor of New Jersey most people called her Christie Whitman. That's why she gets more google hits that way. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If you say so. I am not from New Jersey, so I have always known of her with all three names. KnightLago (talk) 21:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Her campaign website is Hillary Clinton.com KnightLago (talk) 21:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As explained above, her campaign is trying to use the shortest name possible, usually just "Hillary". Dollars to donuts, if she gets elected, she'll make it clear that she's President Hillary Rodham Clinton, just as upon arriving at the White House in 1993 she announced to the press that she was First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton. If she doesn't get elected, she'll return to being Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• This seems partially a debate about whether to defer to the article's subject herself (she clearly prefers all three names - see her autograph, signature, or preprint signature) vs. the most common usage (only two names are preferred by the public and most media). I don't know which one trumps the other, but it should be noted that this is also a discussion about sexual gender politics. Hillary's continued use of her maiden name is seen by many as a significant statement, refreshing to some and controversial to others. - Tobogganoggin ^talk 02:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK the primary reason were having this discussion is indeed because of gender politics although not so much modern day attitudes (at least as far as I know most people don't care if she prefers to stick with her maiden name at least outside the US) but because she changed her name because of the situation in the 70s - 80s. If she had stayed with Hillary Rodham there would be no discussion but unfortunately this did not happen Nil Einne (talk) 17:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article length

I must say, this article is, in the words of another editor, "grotesquely too long". We are currently pulling up at 130KB. It took me about 30 seconds just to add the {{very long}} tag, simply because it took the server forever to parse it. According to WP:SIZE, the ideal length is 30-50KB (I will concede this is a bit small), >60KB means probably should be broken up, and >100KB means almost certainly should be divided up. We're a full 30KB over that. This article needs to have several sections moved into subarticles. The Evil Spartan (talk) 07:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to actually read WP:SIZE, particularly the portion that says "of readable text". This article has at most 53kb of readable text. A little outside WP:SIZE's limits, but definitely not grotesquely so. The remainder of the page's size is due almost exclusively to the 285 citations. So, no. This page does not need to have several sections moved into sub-articles. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 08:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, thanks for informing me of what I need to do. I'm glad we all respond so well to constructive criticism around here, instead of taking things personally, as if they're personal attacks. In any case, as I'm sitting here trying to load the page to verify your claim (I got 58K), it took literally 30 seconds to do so. Upon looking at the article, it also appeared clear to me that (*gasp*) 285 citations is a bit much (as in, do we really need 5 citations per sentence: Clinton set records for early fundraising,[219] which Obama then topped in the following months[237] before Clinton later regained the money lead;[238] but Clinton generally maintained her lead in the polls.[239][240]) - perhaps we can consolidate some of those so the page doesn't take 30 seconds for users to load. The Evil Spartan (talk) 09:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Right now, per [6] , her article is the 209th largest article on the encyclopedia at 133,859 bytes (includes wikimarkup, etc). The largest non-list article is History of South Africa in the Apartheid era, #24 at 197,990 bytes. I've been tackling and will continue to tackle that page to help make pages more usable, but given the notability of the subject, I'd say to wait until after the primaries to split the page or pull out refs. Come March 2008 either this page will be so expanded that we'll need to split it or it will fade into a Bob Dole like existence. Mbisanz (talk) 10:07, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Right. Most of those articles are lists (and, BTW, they need to be shortened too; think "if Johnny jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"). Granted, many Wikipedia articles have been getting longer, but that doesn't mean they don't need to be split up. Splitting up an article, just because of its prominence, does not mean it will worsen the article. In fact, the whole point of splitting it up is to make it easier to read, and to take less time to render, and easier to edit (if your computer is anything less than pretty modern, try to edit the page as a whole; you will fail). The Evil Spartan (talk) 10:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

No, splitting will not, in and of itself, worsen an article. On the other hand, doing a major split of a current events, contentious BLP would probably invoke many editor complaints. Also, its easier to split and article when there are not as many news stories on it occuring. I hear the trying to edit a large page. After my first attempt at Special:Longpages, I installed the edit section 0 monobook to add the split tag without crashing.

That being said, where would you propose to split things out? If its something thats not that contentious, I wouldn't oppose it. The Arkansas years look like they might be split without issue. On the other hand, I would oppose removing any citations, since this is a BLP and sometimes multiple citations reinforce th verifiability of a point. Mbisanz (talk) 10:22, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that there is Senate career of Hillary Rodham Clinton as a main article, the corresponding section could and should be cut down to about 5 sentences, with no subsections. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is a problem with the loading time of this article, but it's due to a Wikipedia technical issue with how long it takes to parse and display references that use the {{cite}} template. I'm hopeful that at some point the MediaWiki template implementation will improve. Failing that, I can try to write a converter program that unrolls the {{cite}} usages into "manual" equivalents. There are several biographical articles now that are slow to load due to this effect, and where the converter would be useful, not just this one. As for some of the other suggestions, reducing the number of references is easy to say, hard to do; when this article was up for FAC, everybody wanted their little sentence or clause that they doubt, explicitly sourced. And even outside FAC, there are some editors who just love to come along and stick {{Fact}} tags in. Regarding reducing the Senate career section summary, I already got howls of outrage when I tried to move one parenthetical sentence to the daughter article! Everybody thinks the daughter articles are second-class citizens and that by moving something to them you're hiding it. The best answer is to fix the technology that's making the loading slow. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the heading 'Presidential campaign of 2008'

Regarding the heading 'Presidential campaign of 2008', is the 2nd paragraph really needed? Does it contribute to anything about either candidate? I had to read it twice to get it. I see it as ... Clinton led first ... then Obama and Edwards were close ... then Clinton led again decisively ... then Obama topped her ... then Clinton beat Obama again ... and now she's winning still. ........ Perhaps someone can re-write. My vote is too remove it (Oxfordden (talk) 02:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)).

1. Writing a history of a campaign as it's happening is a fool's errand.
2. Nevertheless, that is what we are trying to do. It will get re-written later in retrospect, but this is what we can do for now.
3. The sequence that you give accurately describes the up-and-down-and-up nature of a two-year-long political campaign. But at least you get from this that Clinton has consistently been at or near the lead the whole time she's been running. The comparable John McCain or Mike Huckabee sections would read very differently, as would the Mike Gravel or Duncan Hunter sections. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it would have better flow if the section stated the consistency (in one sentence) as you've pointed out in item #3. In addition, is there a difference in 'consistency in maintaining a lead over two years' and 'a consistent surge in the poles during the Iowa Caucuses'? I will grant that continued edits during dynamic developments are neither efficient nor worthy, however; I see my proposed reduction in prose (as initially suggested) to: (1) not diminish the quality of this Wiki;(2) mitigate other concerns over length of the article. Cheers! (Oxfordden (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC))

I'm not sure what you're saying about Iowa caucus polls — they are notoriously hard to get a consistent pattern on, since the voting sample is small and the caucus rules make the end result more complicated than polls can easily reflect. Iowa polls at best reflect a crude sense of who the front-runners are, and for the Dems that's been the big three all along. As for length, there's really only two paragraphs on the horserace in this section, and I don't think that's inappropriate. The "prior year" is when most of a national primary campaign happens; typically it's all over by mid-February of the election year. I've been pretty ruthless about moving material out of this section and into the campaign daughter article, which goes into much more detail on the events of 2007, as you can check for yourself. To say, as I think you want to say, just that "Clinton has been ahead during all of 2007" is an oversimplification: the Clinton camp was worried in mid-year when Obama was out-fundraising them and out-mindsharing them, and they have been very, very worried in the past month and a half, when indeed some pundits had their whole campaign collapsing. Just in the last few days it looks like their poll numbers are stabilizing again, but we'll see if that's for real or just a blip. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a real big fan of poles and pundits which is why I moved toward voting to remove the cyclical discussion (although I do agree that the length is relatively small). However, I don't see how it greatly contributes to anything - and therefore again - seeking to remove non-essential material to alleviate the on-going length discussions. there is little impact whether it remains or is removed - so - if there is no burning need to prune - leave it as is ... but I still vote to remove :-) (Oxfordden (talk) 23:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC))

"the junior United States Senator from New York"

Shouldn't it be "the junior United States Senator _of_ New York"? 153.1.30.135 (talk) 12:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No. You are elected by your state, then you go to Washington, D.C. to actually join the Senate. Hence you are "from" whatever state. See [7], or if you are located in the U.S., watch C-SPAN 2 for a few minutes. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Need of re-write

This article is in serious need of re-write for neutrality. Don't mean to criticize those that have worked on this article already.Bothsidesspin (talk) 00:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You need to be a lot more specific about exactly where you think neutrality is currently lacking. Please be aware that this article is GA, has been through FAC, and a lot of editors have looked at it. Also, the change you made, to begin the article with a long digression about how she did or didn't get her name, gives WP:Undue weight to a minor point that correctly belongs in the footnote it's in. I have reverted that change. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Lewinsky scandal ("cigar testimony") needs more attention

The scandal was an important aspect of Mrs. Clinton's public exposure during her time as First Lady. It is important to reveal the extent of the President's bizarre sexual activity which she had to deal with because her chosen way of dealing with it is an important part of her own record of decision making. The readers can not adequately understand the dynamics of the situation at the time without the famous "cigar" testimony which has become as historically memorable a part of their time in the White House as has JFK's trist with Marilyn Monroe in a closet. It is not sufficient to simply refer to it as an extramarital affair or even a "scandal" without including some details to provide context for the First Lady's handling of the matter. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

yes, it is sufficient to simply refer to it as a scandal. the details offer no specific value to this article, and violate WP:BLP. Anastrophe (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please specify what part of WP:BLP is violated. It is not sufficient to make unsubstantiated claims of policy violations. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

presumption of privacy. yes, she's a well-known figure. the problem is, the events you are describing are not events in which ms clinton participated. the specifics are relevant to the bio of bill clinton and the bio of monica lewinsky. the specifics are not relevant to ms. clinton's bio. you're welcome to include well-sourced material describing the anguish mr. clinton's proclivities caused ms. clinton, but including the specific details is merely sensationalistic, and violates ms. clinton's privacy. Anastrophe (talk) 21:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The Starr report is well publicized and circulated. Anything in it is non-private and not subject to a presumption of privacy. The top paragraph explains why the details are important to the reporting of Mrs. Clinton's time as First Lady. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 21:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please allow others to comment in order to reach a consensus on this matter before reverting again. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

no, you're simply performing WP:OR as your justification for adding it. find a source that describes ms. clinton's reaction to the material, and it'll fly. right now you're just adding tittilating content for no justifiable reason whatsoever. controversial information should be held back until consensus is found, not left in a WP:BLP until enough people point out what i have above.Anastrophe (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Anastrophe is completely correct - and in fact we are required to remove material that raises BLP concerns, which this clearly does. Tvoz |talk 21:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is getting an accurate and believable account of what HRC thought or felt. It's reasonable for us to guess that the sordid public discussion of the Bill-Monica acts on 24x7 cable news made her more miserable than past presidential wives may have been from the classical "discreet" affairs of their husbands that the press didn't report ... but to do this in a way that passes WP:V is tough. But even if we did add something to this effect, we can do it much more tersely than User:Mr.grantevans2's contribution did. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

True, but lack of terseness is not the only problem - it seems to me that this was an attempt to include the most salacious detail possible, for purposes that anyone can speculate on. Those details about alleged acts between other people just don't belong in her article unless she commented on them, or similar. I'm also not convinced that what a person felt at a given moment in time is encyclopedic on its own - but your point about verifiability trumps that anyway. Tvoz |talk 23:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I must not have communicated very well. I do not think the way she felt about the Bill-Monica acts is encyclopedic but I do think the way she reacted as First Lady is encyclopedic: the reason being that the First Lady position carries with it a certain amount of authority and responsibilities (think Elanore Roosevelt) as well as moral leadership. I have no opinion about her way of dealing with it but some might see it as co-dependency or stand by her man or even practical, goal oriented persistance and any event which has the potential to portray any of those characteristics is important in terms of an encyclopedic presentation. Also, her deflective reference to the "vast right wing conspiracy" has been accepted as encyclopedic and so I think her reaction to the details of the Starr report would also be. But in order to include her reactions we need to first include some details to provide context for the event she reacted to, I would think. It just seems to me that the Bill-Monica acts were such a huge media and political deal in the life and coverage of HRC not that long ago as well as the Paula Jones event and today it seems to have faded almost entirely from the public consciousness. However, an encyclopedia should not have such a short term memory. If the consensus is that WP:V is the only problem, then maybe we can concentrate on that? I'm certainly willing to just drop the whole thing if no one else thinks it is worthwhile but I certainly think the way she handled a major political, personal and impeachable event is extremely important to her bio. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 00:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

again, you are sythesizing a scenario under which you believe these details are relevant. but contextually you've provided zero reliable references that would corroborate that scenario. you're merely including an excerpt from the starr report that you find particularly bothersome. we don't know what portions of the starr report may or may not have bothered ms. clinton to any particular degree, because as far as i know, she's never directly addressed it (nor is she required to). you might as well add a description of a scene from a Ron Jeremy film to the article, on the assumption that ms. clinton may have seen it - it has equal standing in terms of being verifiable for inclusion - in other words, none. Anastrophe (talk) 01:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

HRC herself provides verifiability in her book; "Living History". HRC thinks the cigar incident is relevant as she addressed it in her own book; "Hillary Clinton's book, Living History,... also tackles all of the other controversies that dogged the Clintons during their time at the White House, such as ... her reaction to the Kenneth Starr report, which included the most graphic details of her husband's exchanges with Lewinsky, including the story about the cigar."[8]

There are also some other reliable sources indicating the relevance of the Lewinsky matter within HRC's own political life.

• "One of her friends said that whenever he misbehaved, her first reaction was not 'You've been a bad boy,' but, 'How can we get out of this?'"[9]

• "Come the day of reckoning, Hillary Clinton should be named an "unimpeached co-conspirator" for her longstanding role in abetting his illicit sex and ongoing lies."[10]

• "Tom Brokaw: "What many people, especially women, are asking tonight is how much more can Hillary Clinton take? Now the President’s videotaped testimony accompanied by thousands of pages of lurid details of his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. In fact, she seems to be winning more admirers than detractors during this crisis."Kelly O’Donnell: "Today many American women see her in a different light. Not simply as the First Lady, but now as the first defender, first protector of her family. A role no President’s spouse ever played before, thanks to excruciatingly painful revelation’s about her husband’s infidelity. A role no American woman would envy."O’Donnell played soundbites of women sorry for her followed by a mother daughter contrast with the daughter saying it’s great she stands by him and the mother suggesting that means we all might as well be stomped on.O’Donnell: "Counselor Sue Berger says woman’s anger toward Mrs. Clinton is more of a reflex than a recommendation of what the First Lady should do."After a clip of the counselor O’Donnell went a swim fitness class in Glendale, California where "some here personalize her pain and know the damage caused by infidelity."One woman insisted sympathy for Hillary is well deserved and another urged her to dump him after he leaves office.O’Donnell concluded: "But that choice is her’s alone. For now Hilary Clinton’s public face projects a quiet dignity, while many women who support her say that speaks volumes."[11]

• "The strong negative feelings about Senator Clinton focus on her role as Bill's wife: they date back to the Clinton relationship during the Monica Lewinsky imbroglio. Those who dislike Hillary don't approve of the way she responded to Bill's priapic escapades. As a result, they don't trust her. Our dinner companion asserted that Hillary should have divorced Bill; her logic was if she couldn't control her husband, she wouldn't be able to control the country."[12] Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 04:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Other talk page???

Has anyone realized that there is a whole separate talkpage under just plain Hillary Clinton, without the Rodham. Im guessing a copy paste instead of move?71.174.200.210 (talk) 22:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Huh? At [13] I just see a redirect to this talk page. Where exactly is this separate page? Wasted Time R (talk) 23:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

okay then somebody must have fixed it.71.174.200.210 (talk) 04:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)