Talk:INTP

Please Refrain from Directly Copying Articles

Third reason I hate Wikipedia, 70% of the material is plagurized from the first three articles a person gets from searching for material. There is also the OR problem (as seen below). Seriously, the trash people spew.

• Agreed. Way to spell plagiarized correctly. --24.170.176.52 08:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Please Refrain from Adding Personal Experience

I just removed/edited the following section from the Si description: In life, an INTP frequently is completely oblivious to certain subtle changes such as the date, unless they are called to their attention. An INTP will frequently leave something lying on a desk, counter, etc., and it will become all but invisible to them until it is in the way or is needed. This is informed solely by the experience of the contributor and not by typological theory. Please try not to add "stuff you do, being an INTP, ya know". Morgansutherland 02:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This was not merely personal experience, I have added the following to the refferences, it is a link to a series of essays on the personality types, specificaly the one on the INTP by Paul James, very in depth.--Scorpion451 04:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

http://intp.org/intprofile.html --Scorpion451 04:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Thats OR on his behalf (What can you really say? It's overgeneralization (as many of the points are... after breifly scanning it)). More importantly, after doing a narrow range scanning... I failed to find anything that remotly resembled what you said. Now IF it is there, your examples are CLEARLY invalid (It's OR to makeup examples) because none of the examples got any hits (if it isn't in the article, it can't be in here) make thing more fun... "I am an INTP and I speak from experiance... you're wrong" But that makes this NPOV rejecting both our oppinions.

• If it's in an article, and it's citable, it is acceptable on Wikipedia, and does not constitute original research on behalf of wikipedia. Research has to come from somewhere, duh? --24.170.176.52 08:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I've read that before... in multiple places... and INTP communities tend to agree. So what's the controversy? Or did it already blow over? Chainedwind 22:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Misc

INTPs tend to develop their S more as they get older. This is similar to how ISTPs N tends to develop more with age.

stub for Myers-Briggs Type Indicator

INTP should have its own article, not just a redirect to myers briggs.

Carl Jung, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and just about every famous mathematician were INTPs.

INTPs excel in the world of abstract thought and are excellent at recognizing patterns in what seems to be chaos. The world of computer programming is a haven for INTPs. In fact, the concept of a Wikipedia was probably dreamed up by one. Richard M. Stallman is a classic case of INTP. Insightful, quiet, logical, and rebellious.

Er.. RMS's diehard devotion to his cause makes him seem like maybe an INFJ. Definitely doesn't seem like an INTP.

INTPs tend to develop their S more as they get older. This is similar to how ISTPs N tends to develop more with age.

INTPs, always open to new and perhaps even crazy ideas (see Dr. Emmett Brown in Back to the Future), push the limitations of scientific thought and architecture. The frontiers of science are almost always discovered by INTPs. In this way, they are very similar to ISTPs who push the boundaries of the physical world.

Whew, this is begging for revision..... LOL

On the diehard devotion of some INTPs- this is the manifestation of our ESFJ shadow, our undeveloped and thus somewhat childish side--Scorpion451 22:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

---

Stuff moved from the article:

INTPs can be good in science and technology, especially IT. They can be very creative but have trouble following up on their ideas. They have little interest for practical applications anyway. A good way to employ an INTP is to put him or her in an office with a computer and books, and visit him or her regularly to fish for ideas.

INTPs are scientists. Practically every great scientist is an INTP. e.g. Newton, Einstein, Galileo. The definition of an INTP is a logical thinking, introverted visionary that bucks the trend. (I know, crudely put for wikipedia but what the hell, someone else can nuke this or fix it up. In fact by including this sentence will 100% guarantee that it will happen)

INTPs tend to have a special relationship with ISTPs. The Wright brothers were an ISTP/INTP combo. One cooked up the idea that a plane could fly and the other actually did it. Also, the Warchawski brothers that directed the Matrix are a modern day example of an INTP/ISTP combo. The abstract idea of going into the Matrix was probably the INTP idea and all the Kung Fu was totally ISTP.

I can't find much here that goes beyond the information in Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Perhaps a redirect would be enough. Kosebamse 06:13, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I mentioned this on the MBTI talk page and called for consistency in the way we treat the different types. Some types have their own articles, others had redirects. There really needs to be a consensus right across the board. Jammycakes 22:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Some suggestions towards improving the INTP definition that can be applied in part to all 16 types.

I am unfamiliar with that which goes into appropriately editing Wikipedia articles. So rather than edit the article, I thought posting to the discussion area would be better. Particularly given that some of what I have to say is opinion and not necessarily fact. And for that which I believe to be fact, I would prefer there be a concensus.

Concerning the 16 types, there are indeed multiple schools of thought. How they do (or do not) interrelate I felt could use greater clarification. The more popularized versions began with the work of Carl Jung. Upon Isabel Briggs Myers reading Jung's writings on the subject, the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) was born. Upon learning of the MBTI, David Keirsey Sr. developed his "Temperament" theory which disregards the MBTI's Jung inherited notion of extraverted/introverted functional hierarchies (Ne as notation for extraverted intuition for example). Keirsey instead favored grouping preference patterns and forming a hierarchy from that (SP, SJ, NF, NT, and the 4 sub-types of each). Also, Keirsey's book refers to several other variants which supposedly pre-date Jung's work. [Opinion: Both approaches have merit yet paradoxically clash in the structuring of the functions. I think Keirsey's division of SP, SJ, NF, NT is less chaotic than the MBTI approach which groups by dominant e/i functions which for example would place ESFJ and ENFJ together because they share the dominant function of Extraverted Feeling (Fe). Though many may argue this point, the models of Jung, MBTI, and Keirsey are more similar than dissimilar and are variants on the same school of thought. More specifically on Keirsey, I personally avoid using his labels in the interest of clarity. His labels are explicitly defined in his book and make sense with definitions in hand. But his labels employ common words each already with strong and well established implied meanings. Subsequently, most people become confused by the labels applying the conventional implied meanings. I would recommend that if the labels are to be used that their meanings as defined by Keirsey be included. Frankly, each of the Jung/MBTI/Temperament variants of the 16 types really deserve their own independant dedicated pages.]

Socionics differs greatly from the Jung/MBTI/Temperament school of thought. The functional notations are assigned different values and so a Sociology INTP is really a Jung/MBTI/Temperament INTJ. [Opinion: I am not fond of Socionics and strongly feel its credibility must be questioned. Its use of the same notation assigned different values creates confusion among many (including Wikipedia). The most notable injury to its credibility, Socionics asserts that each of its 16 types exhibit very particular physical characteristics whose descriptions border on the absurd and even insulting <www.socionics.com/prof/intp.htm>. And a more minor red flag to the credibility of Socionics; the What is Socionics? page <www.socionics.com/main/intro.htm> includes an image of Jung holding a book <www.socionics.com/main/common/graph/jung.jpg> that has clearly been Photoshopped to say "Socionics" on the cover. (Here is the original) I suggest that if Socionics is to be included at all on Jung/MBTI/Temperament pages that it be as not much more than a footnote which identifies it as differing enough to cause confusion to any person not inclined to taking a deeper look.]

Lastly, you may want to include a deep link to the "Long Description" of the INTP written by Paul James. Not only is it the best description of the INTP available, it is probably the single best type description among any of the 16 types.

I hope this will be of use to Wikipedia editors. Keep up the good work. :)

-Michael (And yes, I am an (Jung/MBTI/Keirsey) intp.) :)

The functional notations are assigned different values and so a Sociology INTP is really a Jung/MBTI/Temperament INTJ Thats not true. Function are interpreted diffent in MBTI/Keirsey and Socionics, so you can´t just swap the types. --Gronau 14:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Function are interpreted diffent in MBTI/Keirsey and Socionics, so you can´t just swap the types. You may not realize it, but you are confirming my assertion. I am not switching the types. The types are defined by their descriptions and by their functions. They are not defined by their labels. I am pointing out that the labeling/notation system differs between Jung/MBTI/Keirsey and Socionics. You simply cannot say that an INTP as labeled for Jung/MBTI/Keirsey is akin to a Socionics INTP. That is what would be an untrue assertion. If you are profiling an INTP, you must entirely separate between the Jung/MBTI/Keirsey systems and the system used by Socionics. Wikipedia already supports my assertion. "A socionics ENTp could well be an MBTI ENTJ and vice versa, although this controversy is more regular in introverted types." --Michael 09:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree thoroughly. The whole fields of MBTI, Keirsey, and Socionics need to be completely reconstructed on Wikipedia. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 01:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the above comment I had not read entirely. I do not agree with the initial user's comment that Socionics is not as viable as MBTI/Keirsey, and I do not agree that Socionics is not aligned with Jung as is MBTI/Keirsey, as the first user seems to indicate. Nonetheless, this matter, like all others with these personality theories, must be treated in a NPOV manner. What I do agree with is the idea that these theories cannot be construed as identical.

I agree with the NPOV. You'll note that I was careful to devide my personal opinions away from my NPOV observations.

and I do not agree that Socionics is not aligned with Jung as is MBTI/Keirsey Again I'll emphysize that I am not making any suggestion that the theory is malaligned, I am saying that the notations are malaligned which again I point out is already supported by Wikipedia (and the sources Wikipedia would have cited in the first place).

Thank you for the acknowledgment to the need for separation. --Michael 14:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The notation problem is very real. MBTI and Socionics switch introverted and extroverted functions so that INTP in MBTI is NeTi, but NiTe in Socionics, which is INTJ in MBTI! Far too confusing. INTP is not NiTe. INTP extroverts intuition and introverts thinking. INTJ extroverts thinking and introverts intuition. Working in an office w/two of each, that is quite plain. Ne and Ti are right-brain functions, which is consistent with the all-at-once INTP. Ni and Te are left-brain functions, consistent with the sequential nature of INTJ. INTP just flatly is not NiTe, nor is it TeNi. These concepts are difficult enough to understand and follow without offering inconsistencies at the outset of learning about them. Recommend separating MBTI and Socionics and referencing each to the other with links in the appropriate place at the end of the article. The real peri winkle 16:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Further, the Sensing of the INTP is ALSO extraverted. INTPs in general cannot remember what people say to them, cannot remember what they ordered in restaurants the last time they were there, and cannot remember details at all. We are also notoriously inaccurate with arithmetic in our heads. All of this requires introverted Sensing. Our memories are based on our extraverted iNtuition, which provides a sort of "gestalt" memory of relative position. For instance, I can always remember where a fact was on the page or where I left something in relation to where I was standing, but I can't remember what the page said or exactly where I was standing. Further, we can be VERY good at using tools--knives, paintbrushes, etc.--which requires extraverted Sensing, and when we lose something, we "scan" the room "looking" for it, rather than the introverted Sensing approach with is trying to remember where we had it last. So, the idea that INTPs have introverted Sensing just isn't borne out in any of my experience of myself or ANY of my INTP friends.RSGracey 19:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an incorrect statement- I am an INTP who has studied extensively on this subject: The introverted sensing is a tertiary attribute, thus less developed. If we were good at it, we would have it as a primary or secondary. The extroverted would be if, as my brother an ISTP does, wildly run out and embrace new experiences and are able to memorize phone numbers in the middle of a conversation. The extroversion or introversion describes how we experience things. It has no bearing on how good one is at it. The extroverted thinkers are maligned by this also: Socratese is a perfect example of an extroverted thinker; involving others in his thinking process actively. The refference to the use of tools and knives is an incorrect statement also, we deal with these in an extraverted intuitive manner. I never look at instructions, I figure out how it goes together and use my tools however works. Again, this contrasts with my brother who seeks a precise and detailed description of the use of each tool before using it exactly as it is meant to be used. Needless to say, I often frustrate him with my use of the handle end of a screwdriver to hammer a lid back on to a paint can because I opened it with the screwdriver and already have it, rather than using a hammer, which is meant for this purpose.--Scorpion451 22:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Type Descriptions

I just deleted the descriptions on all of these personality types. A lot of them were copyvios from different sources, several of them being from http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/ , where they may or may not have been copied from other locations. Nonetheless, the three theories of MBTI, Keirsey Temperaments, and Socionics are quite different and require different descriptions of types, functions, relations, and other concepts. Socionics especially differs from the other two. The three theories should all be expanded upon in Wikipedia, but it is impossible to do this while there is a conglomeration of these three theories and they are treated as one and the same. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 01:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

A lot of them were copyvios from different sources I suggest going to the official sources and getting permission. For MBTI, http://www.myersbriggs.org/ is the official site of the Myers & Briggs Foundation, http://www.aptcentral.org/ is the official site of the Association for Psychological Type, and http://www.capt.org/ is the official site of the Center for Applications of Psychological Type. For Keirsey Temperament, http://www.keirsey.com/ is the official site of the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, another credible resource is Linda V. Berens who worked with David Keirsey Sr. Her site is http://www.tri-network.com/ for Interstrength Associates, formerly Temperament Research Institute. I do not have any suggestions for official sources on Socionics. I hope this helps. --Michael 15:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome

I've seen some websites that say there's a possible overlap between Asperger syndrome and INTP. That makes sense to me, but I don't know if it's been proven.

See Talk:Asperger_syndrome/Archive04. --Max 02:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Along with INTJ (the second rarest type—INTP being the rarest). I haven't come across scientific proof for this but would be surprised if somoeone with a diagnosis for AS was not in these two types.

—Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley _{talk contrib} 14:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The people with asperger syndrome I've met are INXX, rarely ENXX and never XSXX. CrazyEddy 12:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

INTP's do share traits with aspergers sydrome, and there is some testing to see if certain disorders like autism and aspergers may be linked to personality types take to the extreme. It isn't necessarly a sentance to have aspergers, however, I deal well with people one on one, but social occasions still make me very uncomfortable.--Scorpion451 22:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Spock paragraph

This paragraph strikes me as very "trekkie" and not very informative, but it does introduce some new ideas. Perhaps we can salvage the good ideas but get rid of all the geekspeak and references to specific Star Trek episodes. What do you think? Davemcarlson 09:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm open to suggestions. How would you do it? It's often helpful for people in understanding types to refer to well-known fictional characters. "Spock" is certainly a durable fictional image, given the global popularity of the "Star Trek" saga, at least as well-known as, say, Ebenezer Scrooge (INTJ, at least as portrayed by George C. Scott). The important issue to illustrate is that there is always the dynamic tension in the INTP between the ultra-logical and the ultra-relational. RSGracey 20:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Dave, I agree with you re the Spock paragraph, so I've deleted it. In tone, it's almost laughably Comic Book Guy. It's also unencyclopedic; unreferenced and reading like a personal reflection. RS, if it's important to illustrate 'the dynamic tension in the INTP between the ultra-logical and the ultra-relational' please do so with reference to reliable external sources. SpaceyHopper 08:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So how does one get to be a "reliable external source?"--If the information is true and easily understood, who cares about the "tone?" Did you understand it? Do you know anything about INTPs? If so, is it true?

Link to INTPCentral.com

Someone deleted the link I placed to INTPCentral.com, which is by far the largest INTP forum. There is a link to a different forum at the top of the article, which is not the place for it. I am deleting the link at the top and adding the INTPCentral link back at the bottom. Please do not delete it without discussing here. Thanks. Tokipin 12:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Personality description" formulation(s) completely unencyclopedic

It basically quotes verbatim snippets of various online personality test results (I happen to be familiar with these, having taken pretty much all of them in another, brighter period of my life, before I learned what pseudoscience is). Issues of copyvio aside, it is completely out of place to have this prominent chunk of text rambling on the nature and characteristics of the INTP as if they, or this "type" existing at all for that matter, were some sort of established fact. I call for this section and its analogues in the other type pages to be either re-written from an encyclopedic perspective or axed entirely. --AceMyth 14:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)