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{{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/22 Greatest Voices in Music}}
{{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mossy Oaks Elementary School}}
{{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mossy Oaks Elementary School}}
{{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Kreese}}
{{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Kreese}}

Revision as of 20:58, 11 August 2007

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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

22 Greatest Voices in Music

22 Greatest Voices in Music (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This was tagged as speedy for nonsense, but doesn't qualify so I took it off the chopping block. I'm bringing it to you, the kind people, to decide this one. I would have PROD'd it, but it is actively being worked on. the_undertow talk 20:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Alright, I'll list a few. Without secondary sources, this is inherently POV (as it stands, the list is presented as The Truth, the article would need a secondary source to assess this list somehow). Without secondary sources, this is also a copyright violation. In order to qualify for fair use, there would need to be critical commentary, of which there is none (Wikipedia policy further dictates this missing critical commentary must be attributable to a reliable, independent sources). People come out with these "Greatest Evar" lists all the time, how is this list notable? --Phirazo 17:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those are very valid points. I was never implying that the article be kept (this is, after all, the intellectual property of MTV and Blender Magazine— there is such a list that was aired on TV in 2003, and is reproduced here). I was just troubled by the fact that people were voting "delete" without citing specific reasons (as if simply trying to get in on the discussion). You are the only one here who display any knowledge of our policies. Orane (talk) 00:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pointing out that a particular user is the 'only one' who knows policy is belittling to others. It would be best suited to 'congratulate' users on their knowledge of policy on the respective talk page, instead of a public handshake. As the nominator, I'm responding to your comment about my 'failure.' I made it very clear that this did not qualify for a speedy deletion, so I brought it here. I made quite sure that I DID NOT assert an opinion, and went as far as stressing that I am leaving it in the hands of others. Many times when an article doesn't quite fit PROD or Speedy deletion, it is taken to AfD in the spirit of debate and discussion. the_undertow talk 05:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • First off, I did not state that the editor was the only one who knew the policies. I stated that he was the only one who "displayed" knowledge of the policies. There is a difference. In any case, I see nothing wrong with a well-deserved public handshake. Yes, you stated that the article did not qualify for speedy deletion. However, that's not nearly enough. When you are nominating an article for deletion, you are supposed to state why the article should be deleted— i.e. what policies and guidelines does it fail to meet, and how it fails to meet these policies. Otherwise that defeats the entire purpose of the discussion (you can't lead a discussion if you don't know what to discuss). Moreover, people stating "delete per nom" makes the entire process more confusing. As a closing Administrator, I definitely wouldn't delete the article. The least I could do is ask that people restart the discussion process. Orane (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to the school distrit mentioned. I'd say merge but what's at the district is what's at the article. Wizardman 22:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mossy Oaks Elementary School

Mossy Oaks Elementary School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

notability-this article has not seen significant changes for two years since its last review, essentially another "this elementary school does the basic things an elementary school is supposed to do." Wikipedia is not a list of everything Chris 20:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete — Caknuck 14:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John Kreese

John Kreese (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Notability and in-universe perspective. This article is about a fictional character from the movie The Karate Kid. Does not meet WP:FICT and portions are Patent Nonsense. Clubjuggle 20:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete I would've suggested merging into the article for the movie, but this is just bullshit. "Source: Korean folklore"?--Sethacus 21:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete A look through the previous versions shows this article to be largely a complete fiction. At best it is a good faith but made up biography of a character in a film, at worst it is a hoax. Either way it has no place on Wikipedia, even if it were edited to be a factual account of the Karate Kid character I would still question notability.• nancy • 21:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that this article provides a nice basis on a fitcional character whose storyline is largly murky to begin with. It is nice to be able to actually have closure on a character that was vastly underused. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.71.53.19 (talk • contribs) 12:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've been waiting for someone to add John Kreese. How come there's a Terry Silver article but people want the Kreese one deleted? If it's a fictional character how can the sources be wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brady102 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - How can a bio of a fictional character created by someone other than the original author be suitable material for an encyclopaedia? WebHamster 11:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. ¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

7 Lives

AfDs for this article:
7 Lives (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Adding header to incomplete nomination. Seattlenow 20:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Non-notable album, non-notable artist. I'm tempted to brand this a hoax. Anyone else notice the similarity of names between this person and Marshall Mathers, aka Eminem? Apparently, they've also worked with many of the same artists.--Sethacus 20:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 03:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sanos

Sanos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Sanos doesn't have enough coverage to pass the notability guideline. Searching for sanos only finds unrelated links, non-3rd party links and trivial or unreliable (blog postings) references to sanos. --Android Mouse 20:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kurykh 03:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedy delete.--cj | talk 02:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NewOS

NewOS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

NewOS does not have significant coverage to pass the notability guidelines. Searching for NewOS only finds links that aren't 3rd party or are trivial. The only assertion of notability the article claims (note that it or anything else in the article isn't cited) is that it was created by former Be engineer Travis Geiselbrecht, who himself doesn't appear notable enough for an article. This article isn't objective which is why I also feel it is nothing but self-promotion and an ad. --Android Mouse 20:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 02:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Catherine Viado

Catherine Viado (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Part of a recent flood of articles about small-time Filipino writers and academics. This one is making a notability assertion, however... humblefool® 20:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glasgow University Student Television

AfDs for this article:
Glasgow University Student Television (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Notability of subject TorstenGuise 19:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete as copy-and-paste duplicate of older existing article. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of war apology statements issued by Japanese officials

List of war apology statements issued by Japanese officials (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Duplicate. Copy and paste from an older article "List of war apology statements issued by Japan." --Saintjust 18:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 00:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eeyore's Tale of the Missing Tail / Pooh, Light up My Life

Eeyore's Tale of the Missing Tail / Pooh, Light up My Life (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD) Apparently an episode from "My friends Tigger and Pooh" although there's nothing that states that its from that show on the article itself. All it is is a brief plot summary that could probably be merged with the main page if necessary. There's very little other information and only one category. CyberGhostface 18:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 00:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Simon Sunatori

Simon Sunatori (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable Wtshymanski 18:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 00:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Groove Factory Records

Groove Factory Records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable label that fails to establish notability Lugnuts 17:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete and salt. Repost of same nonsense. -- RHaworth 18:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dinosaur behavior

AfDs for this article:
Dinosaur behavior (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Recreation of previously speedied nonsense. Fabrictramp 17:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 06:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Manchester United F.C. season 2006-07

Manchester United F.C. season 2006-07 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Wikipedia is not a directory or dictonary. The page is fancruft also. Davnel03 17:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages for deletion:

Manchester United F.C. season 2007-08 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bristol Rovers F.C. season 2006-07 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Ipswich Town F.C. season 2006-07 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Plymouth Argyle F.C. season 2006-07 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sunderland A.F.C. season 2006-07 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
West Ham United F.C. 2006-2007 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
West Ham United F.C. 2007-2008 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There's lots more than just these, so expect me to add some more.

  • Keep, verifiable, sourceable, notable content. I dislike some of them, especially those ones composed just by the squad and the list of results for that season, but deleting them all is a wrong idea. --Angelo 21:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all per Angelo. I dislike some of these articles too. In fact, I tried to get a fair few of them deleted a while back. However, I believe they can be of use if done well, i.e. composed of a prose account of the season, not just a bunch of statistics, as I am attempting to do with Manchester United F.C. season 2006-07, albeit slowly. - PeeJay 01:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think you should go to a higher-level, such as the Village pump. Or an RFC. The discussion there involved what looks about 5 people. Since this is a subject that'll extend through hundreds of potential pages from Baseball to well, a lot of others. FrozenPurpleCube 20:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, here's the thing, even if there weren't pages (and some sports and teams are more developed than others), this is logically an issue that applies to all of them, thus I believe it would have been appropriate for you to look for them and see what's going on. Now if your issue were with the team itself (I nominated a season article for a college sports team a few months ago), that'd be particular, but it seems to me your argument was more general in nature. Thus my suggestion to bring this up in a wider forum. FrozenPurpleCube 15:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I'm not sure that's a good way to go about things, as there's no way to uniformly standardize articles if done that way. It might be better to move some of the content from that article into year-by-year coverage of the Manchester United. Otherwise we might have arguments over appropriate breaks for history of sports teams. At the least though, since some of the content isn't duplicative, I'd at least say merge. FrozenPurpleCube 01:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedied android79 02:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of kindergartens in Japan

List of kindergartens in Japan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Unneeded and potentially huge list Kww 17:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guiding Light opening sequence

AfDs for this article:
Guiding Light opening sequence (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - as with Another World opening sequence and closing credits, the notability of the program does not confer notability on every aspect of the show. There are no reliable sources attesting that this topic is notable. Otto4711 17:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy deleted by User:Android79, short article with no context.

Kappa 02:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of elementary schools in Japan

List of elementary schools in Japan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Potentially huge, but inherently inappropriate list Kww 17:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Herman F. Zimmerman

Herman F. Zimmerman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - fails WP:BIO. Prod removed by editor saying he'd be back in 24 hours to work on the article; that was almost two weeks ago. Otto4711 17:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak Keep - The editor seems to be working on other articles, and doesn't seem to be interested in this anymore. However, Google hits counts over 900,000, and also has a article on the Star Trek wiki. That may not matter here, but weak keep for now. --Hirohisat Talk 17:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep-Easily fulfills WP:BIO: "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." Zimmerman meets that as a lead production designer for numerous Star Trek tv series and movies. Article needs expansion, but being a stub isn't a reason to delete.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 19:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Has Zimmerman or his work specifically been "the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews"? Lots of people work on series, even influential series, but that in and of itself doesn't meet notability guidelines. Otto4711 22:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that notability requires independent resources. Official Star Trek websites and magazines are not independent. Otto4711 22:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • See Manticore's comment below. I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees. Independent sources are used to weed out conflict of interest, peacocking, spam, and blatant advertising, none of which applies when using material from a Star Trek magazine in an article about a technical production person. The magazine is still independent of the subject which is the key here. It's not like we're sourcing from a fanzine Zimmerman started himself. You wouldn't suggest we exclude from, say, Tom Brokaw all sources from NBC because he worked for them? Wl219 18:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep [5] is an interview on the BBC. Also a tribute to him on the movie DVDs. Which are independent of him, if not independent of Trek. And in this case, I think SPS are viable, given the nature of the franchise. But really, a little discretion in nominations would be appropriate here. FrozenPurpleCube 17:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 23:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rick Ele

Rick Ele (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Art for Spastics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Tagged for speedy deletion but some notability is asserted. Blogger and podcaster. Am also submitting for deletion the related article Art for Spastics about the podcast in question. History suggests a conflict of interest and the tone of the article is fairly promotional. No third-party references provided. Pascal.Tesson 16:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. The article as it stands now has only the "mainstream media attention" it has gotten -- a large Norway newspaper and a blog -- and the same information already available in the Creation Museum article. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 03:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(And redirect to This Week In Science). Sorry about that. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 03:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unicorn museum

Unicorn museum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Tagged as Speedy, I think it's borderline. Bringing here. humblefool® 16:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clarityfiend, that "news story" links back to the main website. That's not an independent link at all. And, for that matter, why would we want to include a non-notable website in the criticism section of creation museum? The Evil Spartan 16:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep A real museum, funded with $27,000,000; occupying 60,000 sq.ft. and only recently opened ("Grand opening" article is dated August 9, which was Thursday), not much more recent than the May opening of the Creation Museum. As such, I think it's too early to start counting Ghits and the like for "notability". Frankly, I think that opponents of both the "Creation Museum" and the "Unicorn Museum" (and I'm referring to protestors, not to anyone who is voting on this article) forget the old American adage, "It's a free country." Bravo to both museums! Mandsford 17:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No it's not. The first paragraph comes right out and says "The Unicorn Museum is a parody website based on the Creation Museum, a $27 million museum in the United States designed to promote young Earth creationism." The 27 million dollars refers to the Creation museum. Sheesh. (And even if it was, we could delete it as a hoax, as there's not a single reliable source verifying this claim). The Evil Spartan 18:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and Thank you to Spartan. I'm not too proud to leave up evidence of my stupidity with a line run through it . Looking back on it, I guess that would have been pretty quick construction.
  • Question Hi all - I'm part of the team that built the Unicorn Museum parody website. I'm not familiar with proper posting practices on Wikipedia, but we'd like to keep this page in the system and will make any changes you suggest to make this happen. With regards to the notability of the site, the site has been live for a little over a week and we've already received mentions in several prominent science blogs plus have elicited commentary from Creation Museum founder Ken Ham. Here are some of the third-party sites currently mentioning the Unicorn Museum:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/but_unicorns_are_real.php
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/08/09/godtm/
http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2007/08/11/breaking-records-at-the-creation-museum-2/
http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=644
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/08/unicorn-museum.html
http://donoevil.netscape.com/story/2007/08/09/unicorn-museum-grand-opening
http://reddit.com/info/2d30z/comments

Can these be used as references to help demonstrate the notability of the Unicorn Museum website? Let me know and I'll make any necessary changes. Thanks User:TWIS 20:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The most I think we could help would be for you to take a look at WP:WEB. It you can show the site passes these criteria, it should be worth a keep. The Evil Spartan 23:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We just got a mention in Dagbladet this morning (one of Norway's largest newspapers) and have been covered by Pharyngula (listed by the science journal Nature as the top-ranked blog written by a scientist [1])User:TWIS 16:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[edit] Additional images

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The result was Keep, nom withdrawn with no votes. Non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 20:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lender's Bagels

AfDs for this article:
Lender's Bagels (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Article on non-notable company created by sockpuppet of banned user--Mantanmoreland 18:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nom withdrawn. My apologies. Was mistaken as to editing history. --Mantanmoreland 19:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Sandstein 05:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Novocastrian Philosophers' Club

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Novocastrian Philosophers' Club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This club only barely makes an assertion of notability when it says "The Club has been accused of being shrouded in myth and noteriety since its establishment.(sic)"

This sounds like a rather small club, the only source given does not mention the club. The group is mentioned on directory sites and a few other smaller references. I don't think this passes our notability standards. This had a CSD tag that I removed. Until(1 == 2) 13:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete I question whether this is a real club as this is impossible to verify. The only references to the subject that I find are to a theatrical event being held at the Literary and Philosophical Society of Newcastle. I cannot find the Novocastrian Philosophers' Press and hence no research publications. I cannot find a register of philosophical societies. Looking at this explanation, it seems clear that it is indeed a theatrical event and not an actual club. This article is either a hoax based on the theatrical event or the club is so not notable that it doesn't warrant a summary of it in the blurb for the event nor in the history of the Lit & Phil Soc.[7]. Either way, delete. --Malcolmxl5 16:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 23:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Under a Blood Red Sky (novel)

Under a Blood Red Sky (novel) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Self-published novel. No apparent press or other indication of notability. Prod tag removed with comments indicating the novel is notable for its predictive properties, but links provided as verification do not mention the novel, making this original research. Recommend deletion. SiobhanHansa 12:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete – Self published Non-Notable. Shoessss |  Chat  13:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom.--Mantanmoreland 15:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Rationale : 1) book was launched at and remains on sale at a reputable chain of bookstores in the author's home territory; 2) the book was reviewed/author interviewed by a national newspaper in Hong Kong; 3) the book was reviewed/author interviewed by a national radio station in Hong Kong; 4) the book was reviewed/author interviewed by a regional newspaper in UK; 5) the book is aknowledged as potentially leading to a copycat hoax incident in New Zealand; 6) the book has been reviewed/commented on by former UK government minister; 7) the assumption that self-published = not notable is invalid. Links to all these items are included on the revised article. The above satisfies the criteria for regional notability. NB I am the author of the article.Drpig39 05:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am sorry, of all the references posted for this novel only three link and mention the author. In addition, the one link, the South China Morning Post, only has a circulation of 104,000! The other newspaper Grimsby Telegraph as you noted is only a regional newspaper, thus making only one reference left. Finally, the book being contributed to as the idea for a real terrorist plot in New Zealand is ridicules. Still not Notable. Sorry. Shoessss |  Chat  10:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response to comment. Several of the references provided are for live radio broadcasts, which cannot be linked to for obvious reasons. That does not mean they were not notable events, being as they were on the national broadcast channel in Hong Kong during prime time current affairs shows. Re: circulation of SCMP as 'only' 104,000. The total population of Hong Kong is less than 7 million, of whom 95% are ethnic Chinese. Of the 350,000 non-ethnic Chinese, most are non-native English speakers (Filipino, Indonesian, Thai, Nepalese). Thus, SCMP is read by the majority native English-speaking population of Hong Kong. You cannot possibly know for certain that the book could not have contibuted to the hoax plot in New Zealand. It is more reasonable to assume that as the book was available from internet retailers prior to the event and had been recently publicised in the region (Asia-Pacific)(NB Hong Kong has a large Australian/New Zealand ex-patriate community) that it could have been the source - which is all that I assert. Note that for inclusion in Wiki - global renown or notability is not required. Merely regional - again, which is all that I claim. If appearing in national media (newspaper / radio) and being commented on by a former UK government minister are not enough to satisfy notability - please indicate your minimum acceptable criteria. Surely notablility in this context means being supported by publicly available evidence, which has been provided. You should not let bias against self-published books blind you to other evidence. As the Wiki entry on self-publishing shows, there are many reasons authors opt to self-publish. As the list of self-published works in that article indicates, they are not all without merit. Thanks.Drpig39 05:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Update. The book has also been discussed in the context of the origin of the UK 2007 FMD outbreak.[8] The author was interviewed and stated clearly his views on the likely cause of the outbreak (i.e. accidental not deliberate). The notability of the book has therefore been clearly established.Drpig39 05:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 06:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lotus Kids

Lotus Kids (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article, which amazingly is nearly three years old, refers to a single mention of a term in one line of a Red Hot Chili Peppers song. Seems mostly to be supposition about what the term means and its context in the song, I haven't managed to find any verification of its contents. Canley 11:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was DELETE - Nabla 11:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Spriters Resource

The Spriters Resource (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable website that has nothing to assert any possibility of improvement. Its claimed references in a magazine are nothing more than small credits at the bottom of a page that used sprites, which is nothing short of trivial. TTN 11:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Why delete it? It might as well be here for its popularity and since there's so many articles on Wikipedia, having a page like this isn't hurting it at all. Even if the article shouldn't be here, what are the chances of it getting noticed by many people anyway? I say it should stay the way it is.
  • Comment. Well, it certainly isn't non-notable, but it isn't notable either. The magazine credited them for using the sprites, which in itself might be trivia, but look at it in a different light. The site is noticed and known by Nintendo. It is respected enough to be used in the magazine. Surely it doesn't constitute a gigantic article, but a reference is a reference.
The Spriter's resource has become something of an internet thing, much like 4 chan. Go to most, if not any low scale game making or developement forum or site and you will clearly see many things linked to TSR. Go look at Nintendo's official forum, game makers official forums, and gamespot. All three I have found numorous links to TSR, and while online forums are not considered sources, they can be used to show signifigance. Running a google check will show several pages of references to the site.
Pixeltendo on the other hand, has been on TV! Or rather, it will be. It is making an appearence in the show, Untitled on the BBC3. The signifigance of the site is large in an internet world, and some well known web comics (and even some Wikipedia articles mind you) have used things from TSR. The article itself can be cleaned up, and made more formal.
Or would it be acceptable to redirect [{Spriters Resource]] to Spriting, where it is listed as a "external link"?Balladofwindfishes 13:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment.tSR has also had it fair share of notice from professional development groups. The lead animator of BioWare (Creators of many large scale games) has said on many occasions that he uses the site for references and inspiration for animation styles and such like. It cannot be denied that tSR has had a large impact on the spriting community as well as the gaming world in a whole. Not only that, but the artistic community, and even marketing. On several occasions I have seen sprites used as advertisement in small independent retailers, and when asked, mentioned tSR. Giptum 14:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As much as I love TSR, I feel it is not noteworthy enough to warrant an article. I have seen many more popular and important websites have their pages pulled, so I don't see why this site would be any different. The S 03:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless sources are found to give notability to this site. I came up empty Corpx 06:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete.I support the deletion of this article. Wikipedia is something which a grade 6 kid would look at for information for his school project, or where someone needs reference material for a survey or experiment, or something out of plain curiosity. There is no actual practical value of the knowledge of a pixel art archive on wikipedia, the tSR article only had been created solely for the purpose to flex its muscles.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.142.55 (talk • contribs) 10:15, 12 August 2007
    • Comment. Last year there was 4 Business Studies essays based on the independence of tSR, and the way that it is maintained and run privately and through a community. This is information is only found through the fact that I received 4 emails from teachers, checking on the details given of the business. I believe that if there are people who can hand in information on the business for school work that gives them a qualification, I think it deserves a Wikipedia page. Giptum 15:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. One could argue that Wikipedia's deleting an article without a good reason is flexing their muscles as well.75.64.175.14 17:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Although not notable enough for it's own article, could a section in Spriting be acceptable, discussing sprite sites in general, with references to TSR, and the various other well known sites. Balladofwindfishes 15:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to the spriting article, and mention it as an external link. Though it is useful, it's not famous enough to merit its own article. Well, unless you find more sources, that is. I'm not opposed to an article, but by Wikipedia standards it's not notable enough.--ZXCVBNM 01:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not delete the page! Heck, many websites have Wikipedia pages!!

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The result was delete. Kurykh 00:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christmasology

Christmasology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
Funkology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Contested prods. Non notable terms, and the wording of both articles is like an advertisement. I removed a link to iTunes from Christmasology -- lucasbfr talk 11:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy deleted (band was speedied 10 days ago). Pascal.Tesson 23:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not to Be Fucked with

Not to Be Fucked with (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

PROD was contested without any rationale, concern was "album by (apparently) non-notable band". I still stand by this, as the band who wrote the album have no Wikipedia article. - Zeibura (Talk) 11:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 03:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OpenLab GNU/Linux

AfDs for this article:
OpenLab GNU/Linux (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable super-secret-SCOX-IP-free Linux distro, no evidence of third party coverage. MER-C 10:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nabla 11:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • relisting - The second linked text shown by Android Mouse reads «there are hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of Linux operating system distributions already available» but also that «[OpenLab is] installed in hundreds of school and community computer labs across Africa.». Just another distribution? Or one worthy of an article? - Nabla 11:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice catch. This made me doubt about my recommendation, but I could find a few reasons why that figure may not make OpenLab "that notable":
  • It's unsourced and could be inexact.
  • African schools have fewer computers. Being on 5 computers per school in 200 schools is only 1000 installs.
  • It was true when the article was written, but it's not anymore. OpenLab seems to be dying.
  • The vendor provided incentive to use OpenLab, hence the userbase would be particularly fragile.
Since the full name ("openlab GNU/linux" -wikipedia) only gets 92 Google hits, I'm standing by my Delete.--Chealer 02:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was redirect to White House. Some content has already been merged, it seems. --- RockMFR 05:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

202-456-1414

202-456-1414 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This information is too trivial and not notable, Wikipedia is not a directory. T Rex | talk 09:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related page because it is trivial/non notable as well.:

202-456-1111 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • Delete as Wikipedia is not a telephone directory. Pablo Talk | Contributions 10:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/merge into White House. Marginally useful information if anybody wants to call. Wl219 11:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and don't merge - non encyclopedic information. WP:NOT#DIR. KTC 12:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As the White House phone number, it's actually, one of the most recognizable; but like "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue" it's not the basis for a stand alone article. Nothing to merge, really. I didn't know about 456-1111, which is kind of an answering machine for the president, but same comment. I'm surprised that there isn't an article about the official telephone numbers for places like the White House, 10 Downing Street, etc. Please note that you cannot reach President Bush directly by calling 456-1414, although you can attempt to get the switchboard to put you through. You might try 202-334-4775 however. Mandsford 14:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to White House. A search of Google News should several stories in which there was much more than a directory listing, talking about the number and the volunteers and operators who field thousands of calls. Over the decades it has been a common rhetorical device for newspaper editorial writers around the world to urge their readers to call the number about issues of war or the economy. Secretary of State famously urger Israel to call the number in 1990. One editorial criticized Reagan for believing that calls supporting his policies reflected the public's views. It is at least as deserving of a paragraph in the White House article as the existing section on the White House web site. Perhaps the section there could be "White House switchboard." 71.57.125.95 15:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Agree. I remember a Daily Show interview where Jon Stewart asked Tom Brokaw if he had the phone number for the White House, and Brokaw replied with 202-456-1414 (and Jon wrote it down eagerly...) Wl219 18:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikipedia is not 555-1212 Rackabello 22:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge A somewhat notable phone number, but not enough for its own article. A sentence or two in White House would probably suffice, and wouldn't burden that article greatly. --Phirazo 04:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete & Redirect to White House. No notability established for this number Corpx 06:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep on the basis of the google news accounts. "white House Switchboard" would seem a better title, as suggested by the anon. DGG (talk) 06:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 01:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dead Season

Dead Season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable band. fails WP:ATT for attribution, has weak sources and valid CSDa7 Leonardobonanni 09:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 00:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PilotLinux

PilotLinux (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable Linux distribution, no evidence of third party coverage. At least it's free of SCOX proprietary IP. MER-C 09:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete Ryan Serrant, Cuss, Crossley, Smith & Darville, Nomination withdrawn for Carl Serrant & Grant. — Caknuck 14:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ryan Serrant

Ryan Serrant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Player has made no fully professional appearances therefore doesn't qualify for an article as per the notability requirements on the Football WikiProject

I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reason:

Paul Cuss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Ryan Crossley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Deleted previously twice with one AfD
Carl Serrant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Gareth Grant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Nick Smith (footballer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Liam Darville (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Speedy keep Carl Serrant (has played for Newcastle!) and Gareth Grant; both have played professionally. Mattythewhite 08:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies I didn't check these players on soccerbase, i was just looking at their stats on wikipedia, I've checked the rest and removed Carl Serrant and Gareth Grant from this AfD — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chappy84 (talk • contribs) 08:54, August 11, 2007
  • Comment Why keep Smith? He's never played in the Football League, he may have been on the books of an FL team but he was released without ever playing, which also applies to two of the others, who you say should be deleted??!?! ChrisTheDude 20:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Smith, yeah you made your point. Davnel03 20:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. Singularity 01:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christina Carrea

Christina Carrea (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Seems completely non-notable. humblefool® 07:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - The subject itself seems non notable and the article fails to assert any kind of notability. -- Caribbean~H.Q. 08:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete copyvio from here. — BillC talk 12:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result wasspeedy closed Luna Santin (talk · contribs) suggestion was in response to the article being WP:CSD#G11 spam. This article has been the subject of an on going edit war 4 AfD nominations and at least 6 CSD tags inside 10 days. It has also been subject to 4 other AFD nominations prior to this round of edit warring. Its also difficult to AGF the nomination by an editor new to this page today (11 Aug). Gnangarra 10:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Railpage Australia

AfDs for this article:
Railpage Australia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Despite weeks to change the text no attempt has been made to clean up the advertising. This is being taken to AFD as recommended by Luna Santin. Fundie Busters 06:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak delete This nomination should be let to run its course. I suspect in the second nomination for deletion there was voting fraud. The later part of the current article is borderline advertising (Digital River) see hosting services [11] and a vanity write up with no proper referencing of individuals involved.

If weak deleted there should be some mention in the article that Railpage is a commercial venture. Railpage seems intertwined with its owner [12]. I have asked other users to provide evidence for Railpage "non commercial status" [13]. To this date they have not.

Asking for "donations" by a commercial organization like Railpage Australia [14] , is technically a "voluntary payment for service". There is no transparent disclosure process where the donated money actually goes, and any "donations" would be classified as income generated by Interactive Omnimedia Pty Ltd [15] and subject to tax. I have even tried to compromise, stating "Commercial - Yes, Free membership, Voluntary payment for service"[16]. If a weak delete is supported the box in the top right hand corner should be edited as follows.[17]

Tezza1 08:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

    • Tezza, an AfD is not the place for a content dispute ("Commercial or non-commercial?"). If you include discussions like that here, you may very well cause the debate to be closed. There is one place for that debate,and that is in the Railpage Talk page.Johnmc 08:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, so I can't argue for a weak delete? I still think the current nomination should run it's course.Tezza1 09:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • You can certainly argue for a weak delete, as you did in your first sentence. It's just that arguing over content (as you did in your second half) has no real bearing on the debate. The Railpage article is not going to be deleted over whether or not Railpage Australia is a commercial or non-commercial organization. And I don't think it should run it's course, simply because it is by the same person (the aus.rail "Nomen Nescio/George Orwell/Anonymous Sender" character) who has made the last 5 nominations, and that any Railpage article AfD made by him is tainted, and should be nipped in the bud, pronto. If you wish a *proper* AfD, then wait a respectable period of time (say a month or two), and nominate it yourself. Johnmc 09:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Whatever the original nominators intentions (i suspect his/her intentions could be the opposite to what people immediately think) I still think this nomination should be run till end,Tezza1 09:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Occupation Magazine

Occupation Magazine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

A clear case of Wikipedia:Spam and Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies). This is a non-notable, virtually anonymous website with a Wikipedia entry seems to be nothing more than an advertisement the site. GHcool 06:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was early closure and delete—clear example of WP:SNOW. — Deckiller 23:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Crystal Clark

Crystal Clark (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
  • Delete article about a single contestant on Who Wants to Be a Superhero? for lack of notability. Almost none of the other contestants have their own articles. Wryspy 05:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Sandstein 05:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MSM-03 Gogg

MSM-03 Gogg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
File:MSM-03.jpg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (added by closing admin)

No reliable secondary sources to establish notability or provide real world context Jay32183 05:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete Granted, I'm not familiar with this Anima thing, but this seems to be an article about a fictional company, that created a fictional armor suit, for a fictional cartoon character? A Google of the Zeonic Company comes up with nothing (aside from WP). A Google for MS-06M Zaku comes up with some hits, as does MSM-03 Gogg. (about 800 each, give or take) However, they all seem to be not reliable sources, (is Ebay a reliable source? *grin*). Again, I don't know about the whole cartoon Japanese industry, but it seems to me that any relevant information contained in the article, could certainly easily be put into this Mobile Suit Gundam article? Ariel♥Gold 05:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless sources are found to establish notability. Looks to me like this belongs in a specialized wiki somewhere Corpx 06:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete To satisfy WP:N, there would have to be multiple independent and reliable sources with substantial coverage of it. In this caase there is only one ref, and it appears to be a fan website, which does not satisfy WP:RS. 71.57.125.95 16:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/Merge to a list of Zeon mobile suits or something like that (I think one exists but I can't find it right now). The stats (for this and other mobile suits) could be incorporated as a wikitable in said List article. Though this is one of the few Gundam entities that does have some real world significance, most sources are not in English and I don't have access to the Japanese sources. A stand-alone article is not suitable with the article as written. A redirect is preferable to outright deletion so that a new article would not be created by new editors who might wonder why there is no treatment at all of this. --Polaron | Talk 20:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was no consensus. Jaranda wat's sup 02:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AfDs for this article:
Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The original AfD for this article proved very controversial. Stated briefly, many members of the Wikipedia Mathematics community felt deprived of the opportunity to share their views and expertise in the discussion. DRV determined that a relisting was in order to satisfy those concerns. Deletion is on the table here (as many feel the article violates WP:NOT), as are creative solutions (merging, etc.) that might make use of the content in a different way. Xoloz 03:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

N.B. - the article was extensively rewritten during the discussion below, and many of the comments refer to earlier versions of the article, and not the current version. Please bear this in mind when reading through the comments. Carcharoth 12:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Battle of Stalingrad in the media is not a list of trivia. That list includes extremely notable examples, and is informative and educational. It is a good resource for anyone wanting to read about the battle, or watch films or documentaries on the battle. I suspect the video and board games trigger the warning signals, but if those can be verified, they shouldn't be ghettoized. Please don't think 'delete' before considering options such as: (a) improving the article; (b) trimming the article; (c) merging the content back to the main article. Delete should only be considered after these options have been tried. Carcharoth 10:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Run-of-the-mill pop culture article with no explanation of its actual significance to pop culture. The long and painful process to relist this didn't produce any new material to solve this issue. Someguy1221 04:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unimportant, irrelevant trivia. Violates WP:NOT#IINFO. --Eyrian 04:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment Could you please clarify? irrelevant to what? unimportant for whom?(Igny 04:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep (1) This mathematical proposition is widely known primarily because of its transmission in popular culture rather than because of its transmission in the classroom. (2) It aids the reader whose knowledge of the matter is vague in the understanding of allusions in literature. (3) The story about it published in The New Yorker in 1940, listed in this article, was found worthy of inclusion in the four-volume World of Mathematics, generally held in high regard. If in its present form it is not good enough, it can be edited. Michael Hardy 04:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel reluctant to pontificate on articles to which I have no intention to contribute. However, I don't agree that all items in the article are trivia and hence should be deleted. For instance, the great writer Borges apparently has a short story in which this is a central plot element. I think this is such a strong connection that it transcends the trivia category. I hope that people will read the whole article before concluding that it's all trivia. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 05:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC); edited slightly 10:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - See comments by Quale below. The article as it stand is a trivial list, and or a list of trivals. If the subject on popular culture is significant, then there should be an article written in prose citing reliable sources on why its been significant. In the case of example such as Borges that you mentioned, the content should rightly go into the The Library of Babel article, because that's where it is significant, with a link to Infinite monkey theorem where a reader can find out more on the topic if wished. A summary on significant or noted appearance on popular culture can also appear in a section on the Infinite monkey theorem article itself. The list however, is just a list of trivial. -- KTC 05:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The first AFD result was arrived at correctly. The page can and should be edited—anything important or non-trivial on it should be edited into the main article and this page should be deleted. In particular, mention of a New Yorker story that was reprinted by Newman should go in the main article, not ghettoized in a "... in popular culture" page. These "in popular articles" are most often a bad idea and non-encyclopedic unless the the effect or significance of the subject on popular culture has been studied and has WP:RS sources. Sure, the infinite monkey theorem has appeared in pop culture a lot. What is needed are WP:RS reliable sources that examine what these mentions tell us about pop culture or the theorem. This requires secondary sources, not primary sources. The Foxtrot comic strip is a reference to the fact that the theorem was used in that strip, but that primary source alone doesn't make an article unless a reference can be found that describes the significance of the theorem's appearance in a comic strip. Quale 05:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trim severely and merge. The article subject is as valid as any other in popular culture content. However, It is nonsensical to list every passing reference to the theorem, as they are far too numerous and have no secondary source material. Once the listcruft is removed, only a very few items should remain, hopefully resulting in an uncontroversial merge. ~ Booya Bazooka 05:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or merge - the article already amply appears to cover most of the major popular uses of it. This collection of trivia is a disservice to the well-written attempt to give the popular culture of it an encyclopedic treatment in the original article. Perhaps a very short "modern use" section could be trimmed out of this collection of trivia and added to the article. --Haemo 06:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or trim severely and merge. Most of the trivia is just OR, but I'm sure there's one or two sentences that deserve a mention in the main article. Singularity 06:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't merge. I don't really care if it's deleted or not (the main reason I'm commenting here is that I supported overturning the first AfD at DRV). But I don't want this content in the main infinite monkey theorem article -- I thought it was a huge improvement when it was split off.
  • (continuing remarks) I will say on that point that the essay WP:BHTT is just wrong. This sort of content really is Better Here Than There. When the content is off in its little corner with a long name and few incoming links, the usual deletionist arguments about cluttering of indexes and damage to WP's reputation lose most of their force, and the content is available for those who really want to find it, which surely has some value. --Trovatore 07:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Of course, its "little corner" could be a page that's not on Wikipedia. I've heard there are actually other webhosts out there. Now if we're going to say better there than here, I'd be entirely inclined to agree. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The point, as a practical matter, is that the AfD voters, following their triumphant deletion, go off to seek another victory, and aren't generally going to be around to help keep the content from creeping back into the main article, or argue with those who put it there. Whereas if the spinoff article exists, one or two editors can generally get away with moving the content there, and those who want to add it will generally accept that. So I say again, the essay is just wrong. Sounds good but doesn't work. --Trovatore 08:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Unfortunately, that's exactly how these "...in popular culture articles" work. See WP:IPC for more information. This meaningless trivia should be kept in check in the main article, and not allowed to grow without any kind of restrictions Corpx 08:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Note that [[WP:IPC] is again an essay, not policy or guideline. However this time I find myself largely approving of the essay (at a brief glance) in descriptive terms. Note that the essay is primarily descriptive and does not come to a conclusion as to whose arguments are better.
          • My feeling, clearly, is that the first group of arguments, the pro-spinoff ones, are better. Yes, the spinoff is likely to be extremely crufty. But the cruft does much less damage there. In the end it's a net win. --Trovatore 08:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per list of trivial mentions that are strung together in a list form. The first AFD ran for well over a 10 days and everyone had plenty of time to chime in. I do not think this should've been re-listed Corpx 08:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Serious metions of this in pop culture are rare if existent, we don't need a list of jokes based on a quasi-serious theory, there is also the fact that the Trivia articles almost always represent a encyclopedic problem based on their nature, its better to delete it before we have a list that is to long to handle. -- Caribbean~H.Q. 08:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - a polite request to not close this per WP:SNOW until everyone has had a chance to contribute to the discussion. WP:IPC says: "If properly sourced and consistent with policies and guidelines, popular culture articles can attain quality and be a quality part of a topic." I intend to edit the article to provide the necessary sources (secondary source talking about the cultural phenomenom, not primary sources to examples of the phenomenon), and to bring the article in line with policies and guidelines. This will hopefully demonstrate what might be possible. This will likely invalidate most of the delete votes above and below, which is unfortunate, but I think editing an article to improve it is better than deletion. WP:AfD says: "If you wish for an article to be kept, you can improve the article to address the reasons for deletion given in the nomination. You can search out references, and diffuse the deletion arguments given using policy, guidelines, and examples from our good and featured articles. If the reasons given in the nomination are addressed by editing, the nomination should be withdrawn by the nominator, and the deletion discussion will be closed by an admin." Possibly there will be insufficient content once the editing has finished, in which case a merge of what remains may be the best solution. I intend to start the editing tomorrow, and invite those participating in the debate to contribute. Thanks. Carcharoth 09:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • As a start, what do people here think of this PDF? It includes material like "The Internet is home to a vast assortment of quotations and experimental designs concerning monkeys and typewriters." and "Monkeys with typewriters” jokes reveal themselves to be one of the ways the mathematically minded like to take an ironic look at their own work and its astounding effects.". I also found Mathematics and Literature, which apparently mentions the Infinite Monkey Theorem (could someone with JSTOR access provide a quote of the relevant bit?) This took about 10 minutes to find, so there is probably more out there. Carcharoth 09:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's in an image caption: "The mathematician's obsession in extending a simple thought (having chimpanzees reproduce great literature by chance using typewriters) to absurd limits (calculating how long it would take for "Dear Sir" to appear) is the source of ridicule in Russell Maloney's Inflexible Logic [28].This illustration is reproduced from How to Take a Chance by Darrell Huff, illustrated by Irving Geis," It doesn't make much sense without the picture, I'm afraid. There is also a discussion about Borges' stories. Do you want me to send you the PDF by email? -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 10:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Possibly, it depends on what I find elsewhere. For the moment, it would be best if you and others who can access it, use it as a source for pointing out that the topic of 'mathematics and literature' has been studied in a serious manner. Carcharoth 08:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is some merit in in popular culture segments as it reflects the impact outside of mathematics of a particular theorem. References to 1729 (number) are few so that they all deserve a mention. When the number of references become large, such as here, the significance of each reference diminishes. Some of the references are significant, such as borges The Library of Babel, which has been studied by philosophers in some detail, other less so. The question is where should the line between trivia and significance be drawn. WP policies could be brought in here, if a particular occurrence has third party sources discusses it then its worth including. If not then its trivia. Applying this rigiriously would result in a smaller section. On the whole I would say trim and merge including only those where there is third party sources. --Salix alba (talk) 09:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The justification given in the article, "...an unusual case of a mathematical proposition that admits a precise statement and proof being widely known among non-mathematicians because of its transmission through popular culture..., is a poor excuse for creating a never-ending list of examples of usage. If this is the justification, then a half-dozen examples are enough to illustrate the point. There is also no attempt to explain the significance - if any - to pop culture. I am open to change if the article is edited in such a way to address these points (just drop a line on my talk page). --Malcolmxl5 11:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This article is nearly the same as many other articles on Wikipedia. Compare with Batman in popular media, Battle of Stalingrad in the media, Christmas in the media, Media in Grand Theft Auto, and many others (just search for the damned in media). Unless you cite me a policy which addresses all of these "popular" lists, and begin treating these lists without discrimination, I vote for keep. But I believe you are not strong enough to fight them all in bulk, so you are taking on them one by one, right? (Igny 14:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Some of us have been. --Eyrian 16:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed, some 40% of the articles in that article have been deleted in recent weeks, along with chunks of the content of various of the subcategories. Otto4711 16:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge. At least some of this content is encyclopedic. Most of the notability of the Infinite Monkey theorem rests on its circulation through popular culture, so some of this content needs to be somewhere. However this article as it stands needs work (but of course that is not a valid reason for deletion). I think we should follow Carcharoth's suggested way forward, and see what can be done with this article to improve it, discarding bits that cannot be sourced. After which we should see what remains. If there is only a small amount of quality content, then it can be merged, otherwise it should be kept as its own article. Many of the problems mentioned above are valid but fixable. Articles that can be fixed should be. Paul August ☎ 15:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - yet another dump of every time someone mentions a bunch of monkeys typing. The notion that this should have been kept to allow people from a particular Wikiproject or community weigh in is ludicrous. Commenting on AFDs is not a right. They have the same chance as anyone else to speak up during AFD and if they didn't for whatever reason that's too bad. I was on vacation for a week in April and I didn't get to comment on any AFDs. Should I get have everything relisted? Otto4711 15:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all non-encyclopedic content, which is almost everything. Information like "Online there is a game mocking the theorem called "Mojo the Monkey", in which a monkey types random keys that show up on the screen. When the monkey types an actual word, you highlight it and save it to the website's server and highscore list" is really non-encyclopedic. Jakob.scholbach 15:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete. I would like to see an article that, through appropriate secondary sources such as this paper, explores the history and development of the infinite monkey idea in literature and popular culture. This article isn't it, and without secondary sources the aggregation of references that it represents must be regarded as original research. —David Eppstein 16:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak keep after Carcaroth's revisions. I still would like to see a greater emphasis on secondary sources and a lesser on primary, but the organization as a timeline of cultural transmission of ideas, rather than as a grabbag of factoids, is a big improvement. —David Eppstein 17:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (redirect) and perhaps merge a tidbit or two to Infinite monkey theorem which already has a section on the popular culture around the theorem. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am still not convinced that this needs a separate article. I'd prefer that the most relevant facts about this theorem in popular culture be just in a section of the article about the theorem itself. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We do have Category:Mathematics and culture with some rather neglected articles such as Mathematics and art. Films are fairly well covered, with articles on most of films with significant mathematical content. I've placed this article and the other maths in popular culture article in the category. There is certainly scope for a Mathematics in popular culture article. --Salix alba (talk) 09:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. The full list of such articles I was able to find seems to be: Mathematics and art, Music and mathematics and Mathematics and architecture. Regarding films, I fear some of the people participating in this debate might not appreciate List of films about mathematicians. Could those commenting here on the unfeasibility of Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture, please give their opinions on the feasibility of a future Mathematics in popular culture article. NB. Such 'visualization', in an attempt to determine the potential of an article in its 'best' state, is an important part of AfD. If anyone participating at AfD can't do such visualizations, then their AfD !votes are merely commenting on the present state of an article, not its potential (or lack of potential) for improvement. Carcharoth 13:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless Carcharoth manages to add sufficient references about the infinite monkey theorem in popular culture can be found. Lists of popular references to the theorem are not suitable for Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Although the article has been significantly improved, I still don't see WP:RS that it's a cultural phenomenon. That seems to be what's necessary for the article to be retained. I believe such sources exist, but I believed sources existed for another article which was recently deleted, so perhaps my opinion shouldn't count. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete now that the mathematicians have added their say, it isn't any different from a minimally sourced laundry list of things that to someone's POV and OR reference or kinda relate to the subject at hand. However, the article can be morphed into the proof of the theorem, if we just kept adding all content from articles that get speedy deleted as nonsense, it will end up as a FA. This should occur in someone's user space (I think there was a volunteer last time) rather than posing as encyclopedic content. Carlossuarez46 00:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as another listcruft trivia article with some merge of the sourced elements.--JForget 02:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep per Michael Hardy and Paul August. Mathmo Talk 02:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I feel that it is important to keep popular culture articles because they inherently demonstrate the notability of the parent article while at the same time keeping the parent article more streamlined. Mathmo Talk 03:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Strong Weak Delete - Putting stuff together like that satisfies OR. Wikipedia is not for OR. Brusegadi 02:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC) It needs better sourcing. The strongest link you have is the one under external links; but that site could be owned by anyone, including the creator of the article. Unless better more reliable sources are found, the article verges on OR.Brusegadi 03:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC) My plea for deletion was based on the fact that the source I viewed as strong seemed unreliable (eg. it could have been written by the person who started this article.) Yet, you do have a source so in the name of good faith I will change my view. Finally, I feel that the article can be cleaned and you should try to find a couple more sources. Brusegadi 03:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a notable popular culture meme and deserves an article in Wikipedia. Nondistinguished 04:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As with most of these articles, there is no encyclopedic reason to be trying to list as many examples as can be found. In theory, the concept of the Infinite Monkey Theorem as it appears in popular culture could be the subject of an article, but given that no one apparently studies this topic outside of Wikipedia, I don't think this belongs. In other words - while sources may be able to prove that individual entries are accurate, there are no secondary sources at all on this topic, or even that discuss it significantly. Therefore, this topic isn't notable. As to merging: please don't merge - what to include at Infinite monkey theorem should be up to the editors of that page. Mangojuicetalk 04:49, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course, I mean that sources are lacking that deign to discuss whether or how the infinite monkey theorem is important to popular culture. Surely, there are many that discuss the "theorem" itself. Mangojuicetalk 04:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trim and then either refactor into the main article or keep depending on the substance of what remains. --Cronholm144 05:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • What makes you think I haven't WP:AGF? Michael Hardy's big claim in the DRV which brought about this waste of time was premised on exactly that allegedly special knowledge the "math community" was supposed to bring to the table, and so far it's been bupkis. --Calton | Talk 13:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having a wider discussion isn't necessarily a waste of time, even if all it reveals is that those who know mathematics won't necessarily love this kind of trivia more than those who are merely house trained. --Mark H Wilkinson (t, c) 14:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep People, please look at this article again--it specifically discusses the applicability to popular culture, with several dozen well sourced examples. I don't think one of the really weak pop culture articles would have been relisted (or even taken there). The people who think this encyclopedic are not trying to defend lost causes, or to say that everything with the subtitle is presumed notable. (unlike those who seem to say that everything of the sort is presumed non-notable). This is used --and often reasonably correctly at that-- as a key element of the popular understanding of probability. DGG (talk) 07:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For those who would like to discuss the in popular culture articles in a more general forum, I have posted at the Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#In_popular_culture_articles.--Cronholm144 07:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Based on what you say, I did look again, but I guess I'm not seeing what you mean? The article isn't a general discussion of the thing's impact on popular culture, and I can't find anything that does discuss the impact of this on popular culture. The only sources I see are basically the "sourcing" of mentions to a primary source. If there were any source which actually discusses this concept in relation to pop culture, I'd change to keep in a second, but right now it looks like a short original research intro followed by "It appeared here, and here, and here, and...". If a pop culture article is composed of more than half bullet points or other form of laundry list, and there aren't any sources listed that discuss the thing's impact on popular culture, it's generally unimprovable and a trivia collection. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The article can obviously be improved, and I applaud some of the specific ideas brought forward to do that. AfD should address primarily the suitability of a topic for a Wikipedia article. This topic is perfectly good for an article. Those commenting on the current content please think this through. Charles Matthews 07:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or possibly merge. This does not seem to be the normal "in pop culture" list, and actually has some noteworthy information. I was actually surprised. -- Ned Scott 07:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - since this appears to be a high-profile AfD (I'm hoping that people who vote delete on lots of popular culture articles will return here and see this), I'm posting details of a journal that does discuss popular culture, and is a good place for sourced discussion and commentary: The Journal of Popular Culture. From this page, we can see that it has been published since 1967. There is a free issue available at the moment to those who don't have a subscription to back issues (like me). It is the February 2007 issue. It has an example of Harry Potter and the Functions of Popular Culture. (Warning: after a certain time has elapsed, this 'free' issue will likely become 'subscribers only' again). Of course, there will be many cases where "one source does not an article make", and papers like this should be used to buttress existing popular culture subsections, rather than separate articles, and the lists of trivia will still need to be ruthlessly pruned to notable examples only (my rule of thumb is whether you could write a Wikipedia article on the example). Carcharoth 09:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update - I've been adding dates where available, as a prelude to investigating each entry on the list. Some entries are too general to have dates, or will require further investigation. This initial stage will be followed by searches for independent commentary of the form "look at this example of the infinite monkey theorem", illustrating the spread of the topic. I'd also urge people here to look at this site (the article's bibliography), and what it says about the usefulness (or not) of the collection:

    "What is wrong with this page: 1. It relies too much on WWW documents; 2. It relies too little on the printed word; 3. It should have a citation for each decade between Eddington and the present, instead of a zillion silly citations from the last year or two."

    Much of those comments apply to this article in its current state. I will note though that many of the seemingly trivial examples are nothing of the sort, and many are not mentioned in the article on the subject. That is something that should be done (importing the examples and their references outwards if the article is deleted). The article has also greatly expanded on the list by Jim Reeds (which says it was last updated in 2000), and both lists would be fertile ground for anyone wanting to submit a paper to The Journal of Popular Culture... (I know, that's no argument for keeping it on Wikipedia). Anyway, back to searching out more details and verifying what is there, before looking for sourced commentary to justify it (the last part). Carcharoth 10:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all "X in popular culture" articles and subsections. Factoids of this kind that cannot be worked into the main article such as to add real value there have no place in an encyclopedia at all. They should be deleted from the main articles, and there is no reason for them to reappear in a trash-can article of their own. –Henning Makholm 10:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Now that is an extreme viewpoint! :-) I do understand where you are coming from, but you maybe forget that some subjects have such a long history that any sections detailing that history may need to be spun off into its own article (I'm not saying that is the case here). Additionally, subsections sometimes deal well with aggregating examples until they can be integrated into either the article, or into other Wikipedia articles. Have a look at Ernest Rutherford#Impact and legacy. "Named after" is an example of something that can get out of hand, but can often be justified. Booker T. Washington is another interesting example. His article has "Numerous high schools and middle schools across the United States have been named after Booker T. Washington." - and this links to Booker T. Washington High School and Booker T. Washington Middle School. To my mind, the Booker T. Washington solution, which uses disambiguation pages, is elegant. To use some examples with a longer history, have a look at Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, Cultural depictions of Julius Caesar and Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great. Let me be frank here and ask you whether you found those last three articles informative and educational (you may have to ignore the trivial additions that haven't been removed yet). If you don't, it may surprise you to learn that many people do find that sort of article informative and educational. Another example would be Ptolemy (name), which is a mish-mash of a disambiguation page, the history of a name, and some more trivial references (down the bottom). It may be that the same information can be presented in the separate articles, but many articles on Wikipedia present the same information in different packages. This repackaging of information is sometimes a bad thing, but sometimes it is perfectly acceptable and increases understanding on the part of the reader. So in essence, your view can be rejected as over-simplistic, as there are many exceptions to what you propose. The point is that good sourcing to secondary literature is needed, not blanket removal of certain classes of information as unacceptable. Carcharoth 12:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing does not make the individual factoids notable (notability is distinct from verifiability; something can be easily verifiable without being notable). If there is respectable secondary literature that provides a scholarly overview and assessment of the impact some concept has had in popular culture, then that information certainly belongs – but where it belongs is in the main article! However, nonwithstanding the possible existence of such secondary sources, an indiscriminate list of random occurrences does not belong in an encyclopedia, neither in the main article or in an "X in popular culture" article. Since neither kind of information belong in a "X in popular culture" article, there is nothing that does belong there, and therefore it has to go. (I might also add that the current Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture contains none of the overview and synthesis material that one might expect to find in secondary sources, so deleting what there is now loses nothing of that kind). –Henning Makholm 22:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm aware of all this. I realise that reading through the entire AfD may be a bit much, but I'll quote what I said in the previous subthread (and elsewhere): "Anyway, back to searching out more details and verifying what is there, before looking for sourced commentary to justify it (the last part)." But I'm also now wondering how "in popular culture" articles compare to "timeline of" articles. The former would seem to be about a topic in popular culture, and would therefore, as you say, require secondary literature that assesses the existence and characteristics of the cultural phenomenon. The latter (the timeline idea) would seem to be merely a history of the topic. There are plenty of sources out there that survey the history of the topic, and mention specific examples, without being comprehensive. Would extending such a timeline, with sources that clearly state that some dateable event is an example of the phenomenon (without explicitly discussing the impact or nature of the cultural phenomenon) be OR? Also, there are many sources that make clear that this is a phenomenon. I'll explain some more in a separate post, as you seem to be more responsive that some here, and I'd appreciate an objective assessment of the sources I've gathered that may address the "secondary literature" concerns. Carcharoth 23:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've finished assessing the secondary sources. Please see Talk:Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture#Assessing the sources. Comments here (for those participating) would be great. Thanks. I'm also posting this at the end as well, to make sure it doesn't get lost in the noise, so you can reply down there if it is easier. Carcharoth 01:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As with many (though not all) IPC articles, the contents of this article clearly warrant its notability and special meaning independent of traditional wiki-guidelines. Any article can be called a collection of loosely associated information -- look at the Bush article for instance, which talks about Bush the cheerleader and then goes on to detail his position on social security. Policies like WP:N were not meant to apply to all of 2 million+ unique articles; that's why we have WP:IGNORE. If the contents of the article are substantially notable (keeping in mind that WP:N has no application to article contents, so we have to use a bit of WP:SENSE), and they are meaningfully connected to a common theme (Inf. monkey theorem IPC), then that topic is notable whether or not someone has written a book with an identical title. — xDanielxTalk 11:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep; crappiness is a natural part of the article improvement process. -- Visviva 15:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even more strongly than I said the first time Delete pop culture article. abuse of DRV. The few relevent worthy things are duplicated in the main article. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 17:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • How exactly could this be an "abuse of DRV" anyway? Note:
        • First there was the accusation of wheel warring when the article had been made to appear to have been improperly speedily deleted, but this DRV would still have happened if that had not.
        • Then someone decided to go ahead and reopen the discussion without DRV; if they had not done that, this DRV would have happened earlier.
        • Then there was deception by one of the people who claimed to support reopening the AfD without going through DRV. But this DRV would probably have happened anyway here.
        • Then we have someone saying I alerted people I knew would support me. I had notified two WikiProjects that this disussion was happening, without urging them to vote "keep" or to vote "delete", and somehow someone thinks I knew they would agree with me, as if they were slaves subject to my orders. How could I have known anything of the sort?
        • Then we have people thinking that this AfD discussion is an appropriate forum for those accusations. That is clearly improper. Michael Hardy 00:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those reasons are all irrelevant. Obviously articles about popular culture can be encyclopedic. Whether DRV was abused or not is clearly beside the point. Inappropriate duplication of material can be dealt with. Paul August ☎ 17:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely wrong, they are quite relevant. This article was deleted once with a clear overwhelming consensus for deletion. Pop culture articles are sometimes encyclopedic: this one clearly is not. It's a duplication of material elsewhere, in a valid article, which means we don't need this tripe. And now we're in a ridiculous abuse of process, initiated because of a wheel war from someone who believes that doing so is perfectly ok. This article needs to go. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 19:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If' there was a clear overwhelming consensus for deletion among the few somewhat confused people who weighed in that discussion, or even a clear overwhelming consensus for deletion among well-informed people, that's not relevant to this present discussion. And how many times are you going to repeat your "delete" vote, thus creating an appearance to anyone counting them that there are more of them than there are? Michael Hardy 19:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This verbal sparring is not helping anyone's case. The hyperbole on both sides is rather transparent and should stop. Both sides have elucidated their opinions, and now is the time to let others speak.—Cronholm144 20:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Cronholm. SWATJester has only voted once, so I think Michael has misunderstood something there. SWATJester may not realise, but his comments seem to imply that he is saying "this article needs to go because there was an abuse of process" (please correct me if that is not what you meant). Regardless of whether there was an abuse of process or not, it is incorrect to make the article pay for that hypothetical abuse of process. If the article has been improved or greatly changed, SWATJester, Michael Hardy, and others need to be able to step back and view the article with fresh eyes, and to disregard the emotions they may feel about this. Carcharoth 20:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exemplary of the bad faith involved here. I've voted once. I'm pretty sure basic counting skills are required by admins.⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 22:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, maybe you voted once; I actually relied on the fact that you said "the first time". Michael Hardy 00:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. You wrote "Even more strongly than I said the first time Delete". You have only voted once in this AfD so you must refer to another place (maybe DRV since you didn't vote in the first AfD), but maybe Michael assumed you referred to an earlier vote in this AfD. PrimeHunter 23:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I was referring to DRV. Checking before making such allegations would have been nice though. Especially since after making such an outrageous claim the response is maybe you voted once. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 05:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the record, SWATJester's first edit to this page was to opine "Delete" [25]. Then in response to a comment of mine, he changed "Delete" to "Even more strongly than I said the first time Delete" [26]. It seems clear to me that "the first time" refered to his first edit here. Paul August ☎ 18:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Is it a coincidence that Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc is about to be delisted from the featured status? Is it the first step to ultimate deletion per the same reasons as brought up here? (Igny 18:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]
    • I would say the nomination for delisting is not related at all, apart from the nominator being someone who has voted delete for 'in popular culture' articles in the past, and that I've been mentioning Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc as a good example of a list article of this type. But that is an occupational hazard of pointing to good examples in ideological clashes like this. That list certainly does need improvement, but I ask you: read the article, and then come back here and say whether you have learnt anything or not. On the specific question, de-featuring simply means it no longer meets the required standards for featured lists, not that there should not be a list article on the topic. Do note that list articles are somewhat different in their requirements and structure compared to prose articles. See Wikipedia:Lists, and Wikipedia:Featured list criteria. The main criteria is that the list be: useful, comprehensive, factually accurate, stable, uncontroversial and well-constructed. For two other examples of cultural lists, of a different sort, see List of cultural references in The Cantos and List of cultural references in The Divine Comedy - which are essentially glossaries for their respective works. Not a common type of Wikipedia article, and essentially the converse of the 'in popular culture' articles, but still informative and educational. Carcharoth 19:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further update - I'm making slow progress, as I'm still in the verification stage. I have eliminated some entries as unverifiable or peripheral, but I also found other examples in the process, and I've found plenty of sources to use for verification. I also found several examples of independent, secondary sources discussing the history of the infinite monkey theorem and mentioning several of the examples on the list. The best one so far was this one. The progress so far is charted at Talk:Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture (the bottom three sections as at the time of writing). The other big change is turning this into a list of dates. My feeling is that if the original research concerns prove difficult to overcome, it would be feasible to limit this material to the rigorously verifiably ones, restructure it even further by date, and move it to Timeline of the infinite monkey theorem. For examples of how timeline articles are constructed on Wikipedia, have a look here. An example of a featured timeline is Timeline of tuberous sclerosis. What do people here think of the Timeline of the infinite monkey theorem idea? Carcharoth 20:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not opposed to it, and since you are the primary editor I say be bold if there is no opposition...What exactly would happen to this AfD if such a change was made?—Cronholm144 20:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We may find out... :-) Seriously, given a few more days of editing I'll have come to the end of what I can achieve, and at that point I'll present the new article and ask for a reassessment. In the past when I've done this, the closing admin has relisted the AfD, though I can understand why dragging the process out still further may not help here. As far as I know (I don't really try and salvage articles at AfD very often - it is a mostly thankless task), editing of articles at AfD is OK, but merging and/or moving shouldn't be done while an AfD is in progress (this can be very frustrating at times, especially when merge is a blindingly obvious answer and you see wave after wave of unthinking delete votes from people who may not even be aware of how merging works). Anyway, we will see. Oh, and I don't consider myself the primary editor, just the current editor, and I'd be deliriously happy if others joined in to help. Carcharoth 23:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trim and merge. Besides being an editor interested in Infinite monkey theorem, I'm also the primary author of the guideline Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections. The first thing I'll say is that this is clearly not a trivia section, in the sense of an unorganized and unfocused lists of facts - quite a bit of apparent effort has gone into categorizing and organizing this list. On the other hand, section forking of this sort is bad, removing essential context and motivation from the primary article and creating a new article that can't stand on its own without the background of the primary article. The best solution is to remove any particularly tangential or insignificant references and merge back into the main article. We should also be careful of the references that aren't explicit references, as some of these may constitute OR. Dcoetzee 21:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final update (for today, anyway). Please see Talk:Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture#Assessing the sources for a collection of secondary literature on the topic. Any problems, please discuss here for the benefit of those participating in the AfD. Carcharoth 01:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As most of the "X in pop culture articles" go, it has no encyclopedic discussion on the topic of this theory and its use in popular culture, but rather is a list of times it has appeared in a movie, a television program, and so on. If a few examples of this in the parent article would be cluttering it up because it doesn't belong there, it doesn't belong here either. Trivia is trivia. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 02:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Would you be willing to return in a few days time and see what the article is like then? Even in its current state, I'd disagree that this is trivia. Take a look at WP:TRIVIA: "What makes a section "trivia", regardless of its name, is that it contains a disorganized and unselective list. A selectively-populated list with a narrow theme is not trivia, and can be the best way to present some information..." (my emphasis). I have also just finished gathering secondary sources (see Talk:Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture#Assessing the sources), and intend to use these secondary sources to write a proper introduction to the article, which is now more like a timeline than a list of trivia. Do you see how the changes this article is undergoing are illustrating the difference between disorganised, random collections of unsourced trivia, and a tightly-focused thematic survey based on rigorously sourced examples backed up by overview discussion in secondary sources? Carcharoth 02:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wrote the quote above and agree that it's not trivia, but still favour merging strongly - whether or not the list is trimmed. The popular culture references and description benefit from colocation - the references provide the explanation of notability and source of interest, while the description provides background that explains why the references are in fact references. A person reading just the description would think, "why do people make such a big fuss about this?" A person reading just the references would think, "Huh? Monkeys and typewriters, what's all this about?" These shouldn't be separated.
      • As for trimming, I find it difficult to quantify what makes an entry notable or insignificant, but I think it has to do with some combination of how important the reference is to the work as a whole, the impact of the work as a whole in popular culture, how explicit the reference is, and how vivid or detailed the portrayal is. This is something that can be worked out on talk pages through the usual process. Dcoetzee 04:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not quite sure I understand your colocation comments. If you mean put the references on the talk page into the article, of course that will happen during the course of my rewrite. If you mean the text and its references should be colocated with the main article, I'd be happy to do that (with the usually size caveat), though there is at least one editor of the main article who wants to 'ghettoize' the list rather than maintain it. My feeling is that if this becomes a full timeline (my favoured solution), it will be too long for the main list, and should be placed in a separate article. The introduction (which I haven't got round to yet) would then, of course, briefly describe the IMT, as well as linking back to that article. Carcharoth 11:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • We should really avoid lists that don't have clear inclusion criteria. Yes, I suppose, a number of editors could try to reach a consensus as to whether or not the Colbert Report reference belongs in the list. But that would be a waste of time, especially considering that there are dozens of other references to be considered as well. So many editors get involved in discussions (like, hey, this one, and the previous AfD, and the DRV) over something very unimportant. This is why we shouldn't have lists with vague inclusion criteria. And also, normally, this kind of judgement is the kind of thing we leave up to the authors or reliable sources, but in this case there are none to draw on. Mangojuicetalk 06:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Actually, the inclusion criteria would be (fairly) simple. The examples would need to contain a reference to either monkeys on typewriters/keyboards, or another form of random generator, producing a work of literature (usually Shakespeare, but sometimes "a great American novel", or the Bible, or in some cases an infinite library). References purely to monkeys typing, or to a single monkey typing, would not make the cut, unless independent sources opined that it was such an example. You can see two examples on the talk page that were rejected as 'peripheral'. The Colbert Report example easily makes it into such a list, as it refers to lots of monkeys typing, and refers to Shakespeare and other works of literature. The trivial examples can be excluded by a criteria saying that the example needs to link to a Wikipedia article in some way. If the publisher, author, comedian, show, book, or whatever, doesn't have a Wikipedia entry, the example is considered trivial, unless the entire example is about the IMT - this would allow examples such as the short stories heavily based on the concept to be included, but would exclude Mojo the Monkey and Desencyclopedie (no articles on them). I will trim the list on this basis, and on the points that Dcoetzee raises (important to the work as a whole, impact on popular culture, explicitness, vividness and detail). Carcharoth 11:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • All of which must be documented via independent sources. --Eyrian 04:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
          • Documentation by independent sources is required to establish notability for individual entries, but not to verify the example. There are many facts included in articles on Wikipedia that would fail your strict notability criteria, but which are accepted as part of a larger article on a topic that is considered notable. Official sources (which are not independent) or independent sources are adequate to verify the examples:[27], [28], [29], [30], [31]. The notability of the topic as a whole is established by independent publications documenting the history of the topic: [32], [33], [34]. Carcharoth 11:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I know this is not a !vote, but for those who want a quick snapshot of community opinion at this time, there are appx 23 people saying delete, appx. 10 saying keep, and appx 5 saying something else, mainly "trim and merge" . These numbers are only approximations, based off two quick run throughs at the time of making this edit. They do not reflect the strength of the deletions or keeps (for example, a strong delete with a good argument might hold more sway than a weak keep because of a false argument.) These numbers are presented to give you a quick snapshot of where the community's views lie in a nutshell. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 05:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • As you note, that is opinion "at this time". My rewrite is not yet finished, and I would have appreciated it if you had acknowledged that. Furthermore, trim and merge is identical to keep in terms of the page history being available (delete loses the page history), so if you want to play with the numbers, that comes out at 23-15, which is 60% delete. For balance, I think it is only fair to also point out that a strong keep with a good argument might hold more sway than a delete that expresses concerns that may or may not have been addressed by a rewrite of the article. Carcharoth 10:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment (Actually an AfD is a "!vote"; it is not a "vote".) It is worth remarking that the volume of opinions, and their diversity, is considerably greater than in the original AfD. This corroborates the wisdom of the DRV decision, that the AfD should begin anew to allow more interested parties to participate. I also point out the irony of lambasting keep votes as ILIKEIT, while many of the delete votes are severe IHATEIT: they are generic opposition to IPC ("in popular culture") content. Since at this moment the likely outcome appears to be "No consensus; keep by default", perhaps those violently upset by the existence of the article should augment their opinions by suggestions for improvement should it remain. I don't see anyone advocating a sprawling mass of trivia; but popular culture is too important to ignore. (How many millions of dollars worth of velvet paintings of Elvis Presley have been sold?) --KSmrqT 10:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    About the !vote issue, people may get confused because WP:!VOTE and WP:VOTE direct to the same location, and there is no explanation there of what !vote means. Carcharoth 11:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, I implied it was silly to play the numbers games, so I won't give actual numbers, but my reading of the !votes yields quite different figures to those supplied by SWATJester. Whether the (now out-of-date) tally is left there, updated, expanded, or removed, I'm happy to leave up to SWATJester, unless others have strong opinions. Carcharoth 12:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, trivia, not encyclopedic. >Radiant< 09:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Such statements are considered unhelpful. To quote from WP:UGH: "… some editors hate trivia, but what constitutes trivia is a subjective opinion and as things stand there's no concrete policy setting down what is and is not trivial, nor is there a policy stating that trivia should be deleted. … Arguments that the nature of the subject is unencyclopaedic (for example individual songs or episodes of a TV show) should also be avoided in the absence of clear policies or guidelines against articles on such subjects." --KSmrqT 10:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • To quote from an actual policy instead of that essay you're citing from, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. HAND. >Radiant< 09:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      If you do not wish to make a substantive argument, that is your choice. However, the policy you cite mentions only five prohibitions (by consensus), and trivia is not among them. And since it is precisely discussions like AfD that determine what is and is not appropriate for this encyclopedia, your "not encyclopedic" claim is circular reasoning. The purpose of the essay is to help editors like you be more effective in AfD discussions. As it correctly states, there is no consensus on what constitutes trivia, nor a consensus on what is appropriate. We are trying to establish a consensus with respect to this article, and !votes like yours are not helpful. I am not denigrating your opinion, nor those who would equivalently say ILIKEIT; I am trying to help you help us reach consensus, by stepping beyond a popularity contest. --KSmrqT 22:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not all trivia entries are subjestive, in any case if this survives it needs severe cleanup, no one will argue that one five second mention in Family Guy is not trivia. - Caribbean~H.Q. 10:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would argue that it meets the inclusion criteria I am proposing, in the same way that the Simpsons entry does, ie. it contains a clear reference to the theorem: "Put enough monkeys in a room with a typewriter, they’ll produce Shakespeare". This quote is from the official show website: [35]. It also vividly illustrates the concept. A list with inclusion criteria should not automatically be considered trivia. See the comments by others above. Carcharoth 11:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Interesting illustration of the tension between teleological and mechanical explanations of natural phenomena. DavidCBryant 11:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, cleanup (and possibly rename). If the truly trivial references are removed and the article is improved using the secondary sources Carcharoth mentions, it will be worth having. Interested editors should have that opportunity. Once it is cleaned up, maybe it should be renamed to Infinite monkey theorem in culture or something -- it should have an analysis of "high" culture such as literature, not just "popular" culture. -Fagles 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. An admixture of trivial content is no reason to delete an article that contains notable content. While I agree that most of the references from the last decade or two, especially, ought to go, the development of this idea in various texts over such a long period beforehand is certainly notable. Carcharoth's collection of secondary literature provides proof of this if any is needed. Wareh 18:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep In addition to the reasons Michael Hardy & Paul August have given, I believe the efforts of Carcharoth to rescue & improve this article is tangible proof that this subject should be kept. Carcharoth is an established & respected (well okay, more respected than me) Wikipedian, & if he is willing to spend the time & effort to address concerns about "trivia" & "primary sources" raised here to make this a valuable article, then we should respect his efforts & good faith. -- llywrch 20:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the vote of confidence, llywrch, it means a lot. I feel I should add a caveat though, making clear that I would be the first to say that any discussion on Wikipedia should be about the substance of the debate and the issues, not the people involved. The rewrite should be judged on its own merits, regardless of who wrote it or how much time was invested (though I do tend towards a liberal view on userfications if someone really wants to try and work on something that was deleted). I'm also careful to try not to get too invested in an article. Even if this one does get deleted, the equally important thing has been the discussions that have taken place here. And speaking of time invested, not a lot of time has been invested tonight, so far. I have the overall plan still in mind, so I will finish up tomorrow or the day after. Carcharoth 22:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • You bring up a good point, Carcharoth. I haven't commented in this AfD as to the fate of the article, and I do not currently intend to comment, but I am strongly in favor of userfication if the closing administrator decides that the consensus is that it should be deleted. The article has improved significantly under yours and others work, and I think it could improve further (and possibly meet the more rigorous standards of inclusion of some editors) with more work. If it is to be deleted, userfication, and later content review, is in order. --Iamunknown 07:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Always glad to offer a compliment, Carcharoth. However, my point is that when an established or respected Wikipedian undertakes the effort to rescue an article considered for deletion, then it's only fair that we give her or him the time & a minimum of pressure to finish the effort. Hopefully, the end result will not only be an article worth keeping but a valuable one, too. And I hope this is a principle that the closing Admin will agree with, too. -- llywrch 18:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just read the current revision of this article. What a turn-around. IMHO, if it survives AfD, I feel that it should seriously be considered for Featured Article status! Adequately footnoted, with numerous examples (perhaps a little too many examples), & all it requires are a few more images -- preferably under Free Use licenses. -- llywrch 22:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete because Wikipedia is not a directory of loosely-associated entries. The article fails to make any claim of notability through independent, secondary sources to reflect the phenomenon's impact in popular culture. The information is not verifiable in providing any real-world context about each occurrence. "1989 - In the comic strip Dilbert, Dogbert tells Dilbert that his poem would take 'three monkeys, ten minutes'." So what? What does this provide in an encyclopedic sense? Look at this PDF that I found: "The Internet is home to a vast assortment of quotations and experimental designs concerning monkeys and typewriters. They all expand on the theory often attributed to Henri Poincaré which contends that if an infinite number of monkeys were left to bang on an infinite number of typewriters, sooner or later they would accidentally reproduce the complete works of William Shakespeare (or even just one of his sonnets)." This is the kind of content that needs to reflect this subject, and depending on how much of this significant coverage of the topic is available, the content should be included at Infinite monkey theorem until it needs to be spun off per WP:SS. Listing random mentions is just not encyclopedic, and there needs to be real-world context behind it to qualify for Wikipedia. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • You do realise that you've just found one of the sources I'm using in my rewrite, right? :-) Have a look at Talk:Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture. At the moment, people are commenting on an article that is in the process of being gutted and rebuilt from the ground up. It will look significantly different when I've finished with it. I will be using the quotes given on the talk page that talk about the examples, along with some quotes of the examples. Another thing to note is the distinction that could be drawn between an article about the theorem in popular culture, and a timeline on the history of the theorem. If you change the title to "timeline of the infinite monkey theorem", does that subtract the need to find sources that talk about the impact, rather than sources that talk about the history (I have several of the latter, but only one or two of the former). Carcharoth 16:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • To reiterate, I feel that my argument still stands despite the revisions. I do not believe, per the reasons I have given, that it is appropriate to subjectively preserve passing mentions of this topic just because it has been covered significantly elsewhere. It seems to be a form of synthesis in which the significant coverage is provided in a certain manner, then original contributions are made to further back this stance. The article is still inherently a trivial list, and I think that only the significant coverage of independent, secondary sources about this topic should be kept. Entries like a segment on The Colbert Report or a sentence in a Dilbert comic provide no real-world context for this topic. This is a topic that is broad -- perhaps too broad -- for true article development, as the topic could range from the core of a fictional novel all the way to a passing mention in the lyrics of a song. I would strongly suggest keeping any preservable items in the main article, which is not that long, and I presume that the popular culture items were spun off because of their length. What seems best to do is to remove any and all original contributions like the examples I've mentioned, unless the concept is inherently notable (like a book with this concept at the core, as opposed to passing mentions). —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep with reservations, pending the overhaul currently being performed by Carcharoth. However, the textual part (before the list) needs to be expanded, with references to secondary sources if possible, and the list severely trimmed, based on more stringent, perhaps, impact based, inclusion criterion.
As Paul August and others have commented above, the Infinite monkey theorem has a somewhat special status, since, unlike most mathematical results, the general public is quite aware of the statement of the theorem through popular culture references (and not through formal education). Hence the article should not be summarily deleted solely on the basis of being an "IPC" type entry. Also, given the low quality of the artilce Popular culture (which, for example, uses the term synonymously with pop culture in the lead, then gives multiple conflicting "definition", yet fails to make clear whether literature is covered under any of them), it may be best to remove the word "popular" from the title. Arcfrk 19:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment moving the article would certainly be in order, but that is of course a separate discussion. I note that those bringing these deletion are not bothered by the title, but the contents. But it certainly would deal with a more widely shared general impression of lack of seriousness. DGG (talk) 19:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete nn topic, total trivial fork. We need to make overview articles, not include every thing that has ever happened. This is total cruft. Violates various aspects of WP:NOT and turns this place into a total joke. Biggspowd 05:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Popular culture, or any culture, offends some editors. So does eating meat; but that does not mean meat is inedible. This article is at least as important as its parent article, if not more so. Frankly, the theorem is a minor observation in mathematics, but the idea behind it is powerful, and has clearly had a lasting impact on the public consciousness. This article documents that impact; and as Carcharoth is showing, beyond the countless allusions to the theorem there are also numerous solid sources of comment about its use. Finally, consider the famous lines
     Know then thyself, presume not God to scan,
     The proper study of mankind is Man.
      — Alexander Pope, Essay on Man, Epistle II, line 1 (Emphasis added.)
    To reject consideration of the expression and influence of ideas among ourselves is hardly worthy of a great encyclopedia. --KSmrqT 07:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Having read the debate with interest, and also considering the article on its own merits, it is much better than many "X in popular culture" articles, and is a well-sourced reference for the development of a notable meme. Gandalf61 10:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Weak delete, WP:TRIVIA. CRGreathouse (t | c) 23:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable, well-written, relevant, and extremely well referenced. —METS501 (talk) 23:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Which revision of the article are you looking at? In the current one I still only see an indiscriminate list of random occurrences of the concept. No encyclopedic content is evident here. It is still true that encyclopedic content about the subject might be produced at some time in the future, but if so, it will belong in the main article, and not in an "X in popular culture" trashcan. –Henning Makholm 23:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm looking at the revision dated 18 August... Looks much better than the current one. :-) More seriously, I am still planning to add that sourced introduction. I suppose now would be as good a time as any, as I think the 5 days are nearly up (feels less than five days, for some reason). Carcharoth 00:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    The unencyclopedic cruft-attractor of a list that occupies the page now must go. Then the hypothesized "sourced introduction" can be added to the main article, where it belongs. –Henning Makholm 00:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    The introduction is now finished. There is a footnote giving the criteria for the list, and (after tightening the list up some more) I will happily watch the article to prevent cruft accumulating again. I actually think that when an article is in good shape like this, it discourages the addition of cruft. ie. badly-written article attract cruft, but people are more reluctant to dump stuff on articles that have been worked on. That's my theory, anyway. Would you be happy to test the theory with this article? Carcharoth 03:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final update - well, when I say final, I still hope to be able to continue working on this article after the AfD closes! :-) What I want to do here is just bring things up-to-date. During the course of this AfD, I've been doing lots of work on the article (and also on the talk page), gathering sources, trimming the list, verifying some examples, rejecting others, and gradually building up towards a reasonable introduction and summary on the topic, using secondary sources. In the course of around 100 edits to the article, from 12-16th August, I've rewritten the article from this to this. The change can be seen here. I hope that, with the introduction in particular, I've managed to address some of the concerns raised at this AfD, and I hope that even those who disagree with the idea of such articles will agree that the article has improved. Please take the time to read the article again, with fresh eyes, to look over the sources and footnotes, and to comment either here or at the article's talk page. Thanks. Carcharoth 02:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closing admin: One of the major additions to the article was the introduction, which was added after all the comments and !votes above, including those that talk about the revisions being insufficient. In other words, those that came back to assess the state of the article later, didn't reassess it in its final form. I would be grateful if this could be taken into consideration in the closing decision. My initial comments on my plan to rewrite the article during the AfD can be found here. Carcharoth 03:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Everyone should be asked whether the new form of the article is a reason to reassess their opinions. Michael Hardy 05:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant keep. Well, the lead section is much better now - and it really is what "In Pop Culture" articles should have been from the beginning, and Carcharoth deserves a lot of credit for taking the time to try and make something encyclopedic out of this. I still find the bulk of this article objectionable, as there is no reason to include so much trivia in the form of "Here's as many instances of the theorem showing up in film/tv/etc that we can find". The list should be pared down to a few salient examples instead of attempting to catalogue every sundry reference. Nevertheless that is an editorial decision, and the effort to bring this up to at least acceptable inclusion standards has been made. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 15:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Whatever the outcome, I'd like to see at least a few references to literary works based on the whole "infinite monkeys" concept, especially the 1970 short story "Been a Long, Long Time" by R. A. Lafferty. — Loadmaster 18:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – although I could also live with "merge back onto main article". The topic itself is definitely worthy of encyclopedic attention. The article needs more work, but – thanks to the hard work of Carcharoth – is acceptable in its present form.  --Lambiam 18:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The infinite monkey theorem exists, and as has been pointed out above by Carcharoth, its impact in popular culture has been documented to a certain degree. So, in some way or another, popular culture needs to be included in Wikipedia. There are two options: keep the article separate, or merge it to Infinite monkey theorem. Now, there is no way to merge them without making the trivia overwhelm the mathematics of the theorem itself, so keep them separate to accomodate Summary style. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Nomination withdrawn.. Navou banter 06:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Highlands High School (Kentucky)

Highlands High School (Kentucky) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not sure how this satisfies notability. Disclosure: I placed a CSD A7 tag earlier. Navou banter 02:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Should pass, and does pass are different. I had difficult in locating these sources. Navou banter 04:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I found sources: [36], [37], [38]. Most of these are behind paywalls, but you should be able to read enough from the previews to confirm that those players attended Highlands. Zagalejo 04:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Just about any mainstream American high school can be proved notable with enough effort. This particular school has been around since 1888, and there are tons of newspaper articles available as sources. Zagalejo 04:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Probably not notable to the majority of readers, but the fact that it has been around since the 1800s is enough for me to consider it notable. Add to that several sports figures, and I'd say there should be enough references out there to expand it to be a worthy keep. Ariel♥Gold 06:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Delete. Tim Vickers 03:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Light bubble

Light bubble (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:OR. Google search comes up with zero references to such a technology, and indeed, the article itself says it is an "idea" for future space travel. The entire article discusses the concept in terms of "future" (lab tests would have the object...). Google search for "Light Bubble Space Travel" returns only Wikipedia articles. It is as yet, untested from what I can see, unverifiable, and no references since July. If indeed it is real, I'm sure the news will cover it, when that time comes. In the mean time, perhaps this is closer to a CSD issue, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Ariel♥Gold 02:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC) Ariel♥Gold 02:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NNS movies

herga derga —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.43.164.16 (talk) 16:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


NNS movies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Possible hoax movie company. IMDB comes up blank for the movies listed here. ~ Infrangible 02:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy deleted as blatant vandalism. android79 01:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dinosai

Dinosai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Obvious attempt at a humoristic article. Doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Enzo Aquarius 01:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

James Spaulding (Guiding Light)

James Spaulding (Guiding Light) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-appearing fictional character. Originally this material appeared when an anon IP simply replaced the material at James Spaulding with this. When I discovered it I separated out the histories, as you can see here. But I think this one should be considered for deletion anyway. Chick Bowen 01:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete IMDb suggests this character appeared once on the show, played by twins, which suggest a minor child/infant character.--Sethacus 03:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per lack of sources attesting to the notability of this character Corpx 06:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The character is already mentioned in the Guiding Light (1990-1999) article. Last sentence: Their dalliance produced a son they named James. In the last few years, James has hardly been seen.. Out of simple curiosity (my mother used to religiously watch this show) I did some digging, and it seems that two main characters, while married to others, were in a plane crash, thought they were going to die, and, well, this child was conceived. It should be noted, that most of the "soap fan" sites have separate pages for each character, and none of them did for this child. I'd say mention him when/if they decide to age him by 15 years overnight, and he becomes an actual part of the show. Until then, I don't see a reason for an entire article about him. Ariel♥Gold 06:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A not-notable fictional character with nothing of substance to write about. --Malcolmxl5 11:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete No reliable secondary sources. Jay32183 01:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. You guys say "there needs to be something here eventually" yet I see no proof or reason of that. It's only two sentences anyway, and I doubt anyone will type this in in hopes of getting there. You're welcome to develop the article at the town, but there's pretty much nothing to merge, so I'm using the policies of notability over what appears to be consensus here.Wizardman 22:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Edison Middle School (Sioux Falls, South Dakota)

Edison Middle School (Sioux Falls, South Dakota) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Average middle school in South Dakota with no assertion of notability, except presumably the deprecated idea that middle schools are inherently notable Nyttend 01:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 23:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gavin Lowe

Gavin Lowe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable per WP:N or WP:PORNBIO. SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New Hope Wesleyan Church

New Hope Wesleyan Church (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Article about an average church in North Dakota. Nyttend 01:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Merge. There is a consensus that this content does not deserve a stand-alone article, but not a consensus to delete the content outright. This is the logical compromise, with substantial outright support below to bolster it. Xoloz 16:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Bridge School Collection, Vol. 1

The Bridge School Collection, Vol. 1 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable and blatant advertising. Ward3001 01:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CitiCat ♫ 01:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reading University Canoe Club

Reading University Canoe Club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable - no external sources included to show notability TheIslander 01:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 23:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inkulab

Inkulab (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable, Google Search returns on Wiki results. PEAR (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was beginning to wonder about that--As I said, it needs specialist knowledge. But could you explain further? Is his name then a pseudonym to make use of the slogan? DGG (talk) 05:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I asked WikiProject Tamil Nadu to comment on this when I made my earlier comment, but nobody has responded yet Corpx 05:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 01:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lock Soc

Lock Soc (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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The result was delete. Jaranda wat's sup 23:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Love in October

Love in October (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Band is not notable. No assertion of notability. Only links are to band webpage and myspace page. No external sources, no verifiability. Created by spamgle purpose account. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 19:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kurykh 23:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of Cardfighters Cards

List of Cardfighters Cards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

A checklist of cards collectible in a video game. (Note that none of these are characters in this game; they're characters in other games, appearing only as inanimate cards in these games.) This is a game guide, something Wikipedia is not. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Withdrawn by the nomination; lists per WP:CSD#G7 per author's request instead. Non-admin close. --Haemo 02:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of investment bankers

List of investment bankers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is a poorly-written article of non-encyclopedic information. --Ratiocinate (t • c) 00:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep. CitiCat ♫ 01:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Crefeld School

The Crefeld School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Complete absence of encyclopedic content. POV-written. No assertion of notability whatsoever. Húsönd 00:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. -- Bduke 00:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment-it's a high school, so will probably be saved in the end. As it is written, it is flaming crap. Chris 02:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I hope I have improved it a little. It appears to be notable. -- DS1953 talk 04:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Doesn't appear to be notable in any way whatsoever, aside from having a third floor which is restricted for students. ♠PMC♠ 04:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment normally on a public school with only primary sources we would merge it to the locality. Since this is s private school in a major city, there is no obvious place to merge it. Dhaluza 10:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: let's see the non-trivial independent references. I'm going away next week, so please discount my !vote if some are found. David Mestel(Talk) 14:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I knew nothing about this school, but in a quick skim of their website I found a news story about a notable young alumnus: M. K. Asante, Jr., who describes in the news article how the school changed his life.[39] I believe that qualifies as a non-trivial independent reference to support notability.--orlady 18:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, this article [40] and this one [41] look very much like nontrivial external references, which would make 3. Kappa 01:49, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Sources free or paid are sources, and to the extent that a commercial source is the best one, it not only can but should be used. The refs above are from the Philadelphia Inquirer, the major Phila. newspaper, which is a source, not an external link, and are absolutely acceptable. There is a particular problem about Philadelphia local sourcing, because the Inquirer is about the most restrictive of all major city publications. It should be checked whether it is available from the Drexel University site--some of their articles are. It's unfortunate that the Inquirer is not more concerned about encouraging knowledge about its own city, or the widespread use of its material, in favor of selling a few back articles. But we use it nevertheless. The rule against linking applies only to external links used as representative places, or convenient collections, or similar non-essential uses, not to article sourcing.DGG (talk) 07:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • External links and sources are virtually the same thing on Wikipedia as an external link here is only valid if it's a valid source. There is nothing in the limited content provided by the two links above that establishes any remote notability to this school. I'm not paying to see the rest of the content. You see, there's a good reason for why pay-per-view websites are to be avoided: if any information that might constitute a source can only be viewed after paying for it, then the subject is hardly any notable because if it were in fact notable then free links documenting its notability would certainly abound. Húsönd 15:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree that a free website providing the full content of an article providing a source is always preferable. However, the Wikipedia policy requirement is that a source is verifiable, not clickable. There is no obligation to provide a full-text website; the sources provided -- even if the links don't work for you -- provide the title of the article, the publication it was found in and the date the article was published, which fully satisfies the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy to the letter. Alansohn 15:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • External links and references are completely different things. References are essential, and external links are optional for starters. External links are only suitable if they provide relevant information, but that does not make them sources. To apply external link criteria to sources is completely off base. Everything in WP must be verifiable, but there is no requirement that you be able to verify it without getting out of your chair or for free. Your arguments are far off the mark. Dhaluza 22:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
weak delete I think there is something here... it just hasn't been brought out to the level necessary to keep.Balloonman 04:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete.--Fuhghettaboutit 02:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Silent Movie Records

Silent Movie Records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

contested speedy, would likely be contested prod as well. Asserts that one band formerly signed with them has gone on to (some modicum of) notability. That doesn't make this label notable, and then per WP:MUSIC any of their past or current bands that have 2 albums issued by these guys get instant notability too. Also fails WP:CORP. Carlossuarez46 00:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect; nom withdrawn. Singularity 04:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Joan Quagmire

Joan Quagmire (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

A very good description for this character is offered on the List of characters from Family Guy, but a one episode character certainly doesn't need their own article.Saget53 00:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Redirect a character that was only in one episode, and only to move the plot, is nowhere near having their own article. Redirect it to the list --Lucid 01:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I agree with redirecting the article, however, shouldn't we get rid of the actual character article? Maybe I'm missing something. Saget53 03:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly. I see you're concerned about deleting this article, but really, there's no need, unless there's a problem with the content (which there isn't in this case). Is it going to save space? Not appreciably. Wikipedia has terabytes of storage space. This article? It's not a significant section of the capacity. It's roughly a kilobyte in size. No big deal. Even throwing in the image it's not that much more. This text of this discussion is probably going to be bigger than that. Is there any problem with the content? No, not really. It's not defamatory, it's not vandalism, it's not nonsense. Heck, there's thousands of diff's of pages with reverted material that's not going anywhere. In this case, a redirect would have been simple, not controversial, and it's quickly done. Basically, unless there's objection to a redirect, or a problem like libel or copyright violation with a page, there's no reason to have a discussion in AFD. Just make the redirect and move on. FrozenPurpleCube 04:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. A redirect makes more sense. This one can be closed. Saget53 19:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Singularity 01:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amy Crowhurst

Amy Crowhurst (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Tagged as speedy but does make an assertion of notability. Listed here to decide if it's enough Daniel Case 02:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Singularity 03:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested clues for the rumour "Paul is dead"

Suggested clues for the rumour "Paul is dead" (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Completely unsourced. I don't even know if you could source most any of this stuff. Filled to the gills with dubious "clues" such as the assertion that "if a mirror is placed horizontally across the flowers [on the cover of St. Pepper] that spell "BEATLES", a message can be seen that seems to say "BENICE3." What BENICE3 has to do with Paul McCartney's supposed death, I don't know, but the article is a haven for uncourced crap like that. Weasel words like "could be" and "have been suggested to be" abound. Half of the clues contradict each other, then fall all over themselves trying to rectify the contradictions. Was he high on LSD? Was he distracted by a pretty girl? Maybe he was distracted by a pretty girl on LSD! No one knows, but this article has "clues" for every possible interpretation. The absolute gem - a veritable diamond of ridiculous - of the article's clues regards a picture from the liner notes of Magical Mystery Tour - "if the viewer holds it sideways and squints, it appears to be the image of a crushed skull." Does this crap really belong in Wikipedia? ♠PMC♠ 04:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - So what is Wikipedia going to do with other unsourced urban legends? Porterjoh 09:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Better move fast then. Start with the Hotel California Satanist rumours...Porterjoh 10:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep. CitiCat ♫ 02:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glenn Murphy Jr.

Glenn Murphy Jr. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Individual was the subject of a prior AFD and deleted at that time. Since then, the only thing that has happened is a revelation that he was arrested but not charged with a sexual assault in 1998 and recently arrested on a similar charge. The bottom line (and sad commentary on society) is that there are hundreds if not thousands of sexual offenders arrested every day. Being arrested doesn't make them notable. Subject was a minor political activist before and resigned from the only office that even had a snowball's chance of making him notable, Chair of the Young Republicans. Montco 14:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per WP:N, which could be argued against, but really, it just doesn't work. J-stan TalkContribs 16:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not notable per WP:BIO. WP:BLP also applies, "...it is not our job to be [...] the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives." --Malcolmxl5 17:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete He was a national Republican official, but did not hold public office, so this falls into allegations of misconduct by private individuals. Could be deleted based on WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:BLP. Edison 18:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep While this entry might not stand on its own, it provides context and more in-depth information for other entries (e.g., Young Republicans). This entry does not exist merely to make an allegation of misconduct by a private person nor to spread titillating claims. This entry provides accurate, relevant information about leadership changes at an influential, important public organization, without cluttering or placing distractions on that organization's main entry page. While the subject may be a private person and while the charges may be entirely personal, the leadership changes at a public organization are relevant and deserve full examination. A separate entry for the subject is the best way to provide a full explanation of those leadership changes and their impact on public policy. Glenn Murphy has earned an entry not because he got arrested, but because he worked for a public institution and resigned under circumstances that have implications for that organization, for electoral politics, and for an ongoing public policy debate. There is no point providing information (i.e., the fact of leadership changes in the Young Republicans organization) if we cannot provide full information. We cannot and should not edit out relevant, true facts just because some people find them inconvenient or embarassing and others find them titillating or salacious. As soon as Glenn Murphy's private problems resulted in leadership changes at the Young Republicans organization and sparked a debate about public policy, it became worthy of a full entry explaining the details of those changes and debates. Additional note: How is this entry any different from those for Mike Jones or Fawn Hall or Donna Rice or Divine Brown? Really, I think that there is ample precedent for the validity of this entry. Do any of the pro-deletion contributors want to explain why this entry is any different from the others I cited? Demesne Lord 19:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Clearly passes WP:N as the elected president of a major national political organization (Young Republicans) and an important local political figure (chair of the local Republican party) who is the subject of a scandal receiving significant news coverage from newspapers across the country (e.g.: [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47]). Fireplace 19:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Addendum The AFD nom says that except for the sex scandal, nothing has happened since the previous successful AFD. That's incorrect: during the interim, Murphy was elected president of the Young Republicans. Fireplace 08:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The President of the Young Republicans would I think be notable in any case. But the article should be rewritten to simply provide the key information about the charge, not the details of the sex act in question. Unnecessary details of that sort in my opinion fall under BLP. If anyone wants them, they're in the sources.DGG (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep he is notable Harlowraman 05:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Kurykh 23:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ferite

Ferite (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The language appears to be non-notable to the point that it would be impossible to find reliable secondary-source information about it, because no such sources appear to exist. A search for it at the ACM digital library turned up nothing that I could find. No wikipedia article links to it, except for trivialities like "list of programming languages". There are no Google search results for it except for the project's own web pages and copies of the WP article. The ferite-users mailing list has seen no traffic since early 2006 and has fewer than 80 messages in the five years before that. Dominus 20:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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  1. ^ Top five science blogs. 5 July 2006; accessed 3 September 2006.
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