Talk:Israel-related animal conspiracy theories: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Latest revision as of 16:24, 25 September 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Israel-related animal conspiracy theories article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3: 3 months

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

The following additional restriction applies to this article to inhibit the addition of WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS material to this article in violation of the principles of Wikipedia:

No editor may add or readd any alleged instance of a conspiracy theory, unless such addition or readdition has been proposed on this talk page at least 48 hours in advance, and either

No objection was made to adding or readding the content; or
An uninvolved administrator determines that there is a consensus to add or readd the content.

No editor may remove content added in compliance with this restriction, unless the removal has been proposed and discussed in the same manner, and either there was no objection, or an uninvolved administrator determines that there's a consensus to remove the content.
Reverts of edits made in violation of this restriction are exempt from the general 1RR restriction; reverts that are exempt from the general 1RR restriction are also exempt from this restriction.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

Israel Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Animals Low‑importance

Israel-related animal conspiracy theories is within the scope of WikiProject Animals, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to animals and zoology. For more information, visit the project page.AnimalsWikipedia:WikiProject AnimalsTemplate:WikiProject Animalsanimal

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Animals To-do:

Here are some Open Tasks :

Copyedit:
Merge: GLAM/ARKive donated texts into articles about endangered species.
Improve: Photoperiodism, Tool use by non-human animals, Omnivore, Animal suicide, Sphaerium beckmani (a species in family Sphaeriidae),
Requests:
- Mammals:
- Invertebrates: Campocraspedon
- Fishes: Zaniolepis frenata
Merge: GLAM/ARKive donated texts into articles about endangered species.
Expand: Junqueira cow, Atka mackerel
Nominate and vote: Science collaboration of the month, Article Improvement Drive, WikiProject Animals Collaboration

Alternative views Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Skepticism Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Keep, 17 November 2020, see discussion.
Weak keep, 24 September 2012, see discussion.
Keep, 8 January 2011, see discussion.

A fact from Israel-related animal conspiracy theories appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 16 January 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Saudi Arabian officials detained a vulture (example pictured) and accused it of spying for Israel?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/January.

Wikipedia

Nominate for deletion

This article is clearly propaganda 121.45.171.107 (talk) 02:07, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Material removed from article (Rats section) pending verification

In July 2008, the official Palestinian news agency, Wafa, accused Israel of using "supernatural rats" that "can even chase away Arab cats" to encourage Arab residents of the Old City of Jerusalem to flee in panic.^[1]

and

The Irish columnist Ian O'Doherty wrote after the incident: "Terrifyingly, the rats even know the difference between Jew and Arab and they leave the Jews alone while terrorising the Arabs. Further proof, as if any were needed, that these Jews are just too sneaky for their own good. That, or the fact that Palestinian newspapers are perhaps a little biased in their coverage."^[1]

was removed, both give a 2008 article as source ref which is a dead link. A search on wayback turns up http://web.archive.org/web/20141222032347/http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/save-us-from-the-jewish-rats-26465732.html which although apparently the same subject matter, is dated in 2012.

Assuming it is the same subject matter, then the material fails verification because WAFA is nowhere mentioned.Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.swuarchive.com/news/article.asp?id=487 identifies (with quotes) two other Palestinian newspapers (Doherty also says two Palestinian newspapers but does not name them).

Taken together the two sources appear to contradict the assertion in the Jewish Post reference that the material was published by WAFA.

There is a discussion about this at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#The_rat_story

Anyone want to try and clear things up?

Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, it fails verification so I removed it. It also is not a conspiracy theory. ImTheIP (talk) 21:03, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b O'Doherty, Ian (31 July 2008). "Save us from the Jewish rats". Irish Independent. Retrieved 25 August 2015.

what is there to clear up ? As you wrote above, the Ian Odoherty article is about the same incident. the incident is from 2008, and Odoherty wrote about it in 2012. There's no contradiction here at all.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric Ahmet Oğuz (talk • contribs) blocked sock Selfstudier (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hyenas

The section Israel-related_animal_conspiracy_theories#Hyenas is an unsubstantiated allegation. That is not the same thing as a conspiracy theory. Thus, the section should be removed. ImTheIP (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No its not, its reported by WP:RS.Please gain a consensus as per requirement in this page --Shrike (talk) 17:01, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Palestinians accused Israeli settlers of releasing wild hyenas in Jenin." That is an unsubstantiated allegation. But it is not a conspiracy theory. Since it is not a conspiracy theory, it is irrelevant for this page. ImTheIP (talk) 17:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

About the Third Opinion request: The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All conspiracy theories are unsubstantiated allegations. It belongs in the article. Dream Focus 19:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A conspiracy theory requires an imagined conspiracy. The text in question doesn't allege that a conspiracy exists and it is therefore not a conspiracy theory. The source does not claim that it is a conspiracy theory either. ImTheIP (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The top of the page clearly states: Zoological conspiracy theories involving Israel are occasionally found in the media or on the Internet, typically in Muslim-majority countries, alleging use of animals by Israel to attack civilians or to conduct espionage. These conspiracies are often reported as evidence of a Zionist or Israeli plot. So that's what this is. Any claim of Israel using animals in this way, is listed here. Dream Focus 20:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The cited article reads [1]: Ramallah: Palestinians in the occupied West Bank city of Jenin say that Jewish colonists have released wild hyenas into the eastern part of the town. I cannot see how that sentence have anything to do with an Israeli or Zionist plot. It's not a conspiracy theory either. ImTheIP (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish colonists are Zionists. See Zionism. Two people have stated it belongs in the article, one person who wanted to delete the entire article at AFD wants it removed. Consensus is for it to remain. Dream Focus 23:15, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on hyenas as an animal conspiracy theory

The following is a closed discussion of a RfC. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a close review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the RfC was: Consensus against the inclusion of this material (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:59, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does the section about hyenas belong in this article? 06:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

No: 1. The first sentence In January 2016, Palestinians accused Israeli settlers of releasing wild hyenas in Jenin. is only sourced to this Gulf News article which is a very weak source. 2. "[A]ccus[ing] Israeli settlers of releasing wild hyenas" is an accusation not a conspiracy theory. Thus, this is WP:OR since the Gulf News article doesn't claim it is a conspiracy theory. 3. The second and fourth sentences (In 2014, IDF soldiers found an abused hyena in Hebron ...) is not about a conspiracy theory either. 4. If a Daily Mail article describes an Englishman accusing his Scottish neighbor of releasing his dogs on his children would we put it in an article titled British-related animal conspiracy theories? ImTheIP (talk) 08:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No: This doesn't appear to be a "conspiracy theory" per se, but an event (Jenin residents fend off hyenas [1]) which has been presented with a conspiratorial twist by a single source. I couldn't find any source claiming this "conspiracy theory" is a belief actually held by people living in the area. Until a second source can be added, we should treat this as a minor local story given a sensationalist title by one publication. PraiseVivec (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PraiseVivec, There is another Conspiracy source [2] Could be used as primary source --Shrike (talk) 12:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shrike, I missed that. The fact that the two sources are three years apart could be an argument in favour of this being indeed a more widely held belief. PraiseVivec (talk) 12:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PraiseVivec, Would you consider to change your vote Shrike (talk) 18:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shrike, perhaps, but I need to see more arguments for this being a widely-held belief in the region and not just an example of hack journalism. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A page on the domain stopthewall.org with an unknown author is hardly a WP:RS. A Wikipedia article referencing that page in order to build a case about the supposed existence of a widespread conspiracy theory would be an example of impermissible WP:OR. ImTheIP (talk) 15:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Its a primary source a perfect example of Anti-Israeli propaganda--Shrike (talk) 15:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No - Per User:ImTheIP's comments about poor sourcing. NickCT (talk) 18:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes All conspiracy theories are unsubstantiated allegations, its the same thing. You don't need those covering it to use the word "conspiracy". Dream Focus 18:54, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don't conspiracy theories need some conspirators? An unsubstantiated allegation need not have any.Selfstudier (talk) 19:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes There is already two sources that talk about this conspiracy.--Shrike (talk) 07:54, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Yes - there is more than one source for this - e.g - https://www.timesofisrael.comjenin-residents-fend-off-hyenas/. It is easy to find, practically the first result of Google. don't you do a simple search before making these suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric Ahmet Oğuz (talk • contribs) 16:54, 19 December 2020 (UTC) Strike 500/30 Arbpia Selfstudier (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC) blocked sock Selfstudier (talk) 19:46, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No — One weak source is nowhere near enough. The part about an abused hyena is of course nothing whatever to do with the subject of the page and must be deleted regardless of the result of this RfC. And, Shrike, primary sources are subject to reliability requirements just as much as secondary sources are. Zero^talk 08:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do reliability requirements stay in place for primary sources even when he subject is conspiracy theories? By definition the primary source of a conspiracy theory will never be a reliable one. Genuinely asking. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. For example, lots of unreliable sources claim that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from Trump. We wouldn't use those sources but rather more reliable sources that describe what this conspiracy theory is all about. ImTheIP (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, due to insufficient sourcing. Idealigic (talk) 16:04, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, not covered as a conspiracy theory in the sources, and generally minimal coverage anyway. If something is so WP:FRINGE that only a single source mentions the accusation and there's no coverage even discussing or debunking it, the correct thing to do is to not cover it at all. --Aquillion (talk) 15:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No The source used [3] is weak and doesn't mention anything about conspiracy theories. Seems UNDUE and OR. Some1 (talk) 04:24, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

I removed this, despite the ongoing RFC, because it seemed totally unrelated to even the alleged conspiracy theory: In 2014, IDF soldiers found an abused hyena in Hebron and sent it to receive treatment in Israel. Three Palestinian abusers, from the village of Beit Ummar, were prosecuted.^[1] Feel free to restore it if someone can argue that it's actually relevant to the topic, but I'm not seeing any connection at all beyond the word "hyena". There's no mention of a conspiracy theory in that source, no connection to the accusation in the previous sentence beyond both involving hyenas, and (unlike the other part of the section) not even an accusation that could be construed as a conspiracy theory. It feels like perhaps the intent is to convince the reader that the animal abuse was connected to the accusation preceding it (ie. the hyena was mistreated by people who believed the alleged conspiracy theory), but if so then that is unambiguous WP:SYNTH - nothing in the second source mentions the accusations at all or even acknowledges that they exist. --Aquillion (talk) 15:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Erlichman, Erez (October 9, 2014). "Three Palestinians arrested for abusing hyena". Yedioth Ahronoth. Retrieved January 8, 2017.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should be a list

This is not a real subject, should just be a list. Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a bit tenuous. A disparate collection of anecdotal paranoias. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Llamas?

Under “Mammals”, the following statement is presented as fact: “The IDF conducts special operations training with llamas that are able to hide soldiers from heat-detection devices”. There is no source attributed to this claim about super llamas and a search for one isn’t turning up anything. 24.148.73.103 (talk) 16:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[ii-1] O'Doherty, Ian (31 July 2008). "Save us from the Jewish rats". Irish Independent. Retrieved 25 August 2015.

[2] Erlichman, Erez (October 9, 2014). "Three Palestinians arrested for abusing hyena". Yedioth Ahronoth. Retrieved January 8, 2017.

[1]

[1]

@@ Line 119: / Line 119: @@
 :Yes, it's a bit tenuous. A disparate collection of anecdotal paranoias. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 19:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
+== Llamas? ==
+Under “Mammals”, the following statement is presented as fact: “The IDF conducts special operations training with llamas that are able to hide soldiers from heat-detection devices”. There is no source attributed to this claim about super llamas and a search for one isn’t turning up anything. [[Special:Contributions/24.148.73.103|24.148.73.103]] ([[User talk:24.148.73.103|talk]]) 16:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)