Talk:Israel–Hamas war

RfC - Infobox Adding Belligerents (Adding Options - US, Houthi, Iran, Russia, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Hezbollah)

Which of the following countries/groups should be added to the list of belligerents?

United States, Houthi, Iran, Russia, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Hezbollah

Option 1 – Add X
Option 2 – Do not add X
Option 3 – Neutral (no comments) on X
(X = Country)

RfC is not to add all of them as a yes/no, but rather which ones should be added, i.e. seven different and unique discussions. Note: Hezbollah was added to RfC on 28 October after disagreement between editors after RfC started. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• RfC Creator Comment – Depending on conclusion of this RfC, if any countries/groups are to be added to the list, a second discussion will take place on how to add them to the belligerents list. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1 for United States, Saudi Arabia & Houthi, Option 3 for Iran, Russia, and Germany – In the previous RfC (withdrawn for better formatted on here), Ecrusized said it nicely, so I am going to partially quote them here: On Friday, 20 October. U.S. Navy destroyers in the Red Sea shot down 4 Yemeni Houthi missiles as well as 15 suicide drones that were headed towards Israel. According to Axios, the U.S. also sent a 3-star general to advise ground operations in Israel. Additionally, U.S. is reported to have delivered 45 cargo planes loaded with armaments to Israel since the outbreak of hostilities. All of these indicate clearly the US is a belligerent in the conflict (side with Israel) and subsequently Houthi is a belligerent in the conflict (side with Hamas) due attempting to attack Israel, forcing the U.S. to act militarily. Additionally, today, the Wall Street Journal reported the United States is deploying "nearly a dozen air-defense systems to countries across the Middle East". Option 1 for Saudi Arabia as well given the new report from the Wall Street Journal saying Saudi Arabia militarily shot down a Houthi missile. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

  I'd like to point out that half of the western world provided supplies support of this kind to Ukraine, but no source that I'm aware of considers all of those countries belligerents in the war between Ukraine and Russia. eyal (talk) 03:42, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF Ukraine war article has its unique style in many ways. It is not a guideline for every single article. Ecrusized (talk) 07:42, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

In the absence of a clear reliable source consensus that lists the belligerents, we should strive for a consistent definition of "belligerent" across articles. I don't think the Ukraine situation is fundamentally different: There's an armed conflict between two or more entities, and we list the armed groups doing the fighting as belligerents. Everybody else isn't listed as a belligerent. eyal (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Add the US as being supported by, they're doing everything apart from fighting, they're also directly helping Israel by flying drones, which indicates a major support measure. — Karnataka ^talk 09:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment A new report by WSJ states that one of the five Houthi missiles fired at Israel was shot down by Saudi Arabia. Ecrusized (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I just added it to the list of options. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:26, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment 2 NBC News reports that two dozen (24) U.S. servicemen have been wounded in drone attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq and Syria last week. Ecrusized (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

  Comment Attacks in Iraq and Syria (the northern and eastern parts of it, at least) are outside the scope of this article for the time being. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 23:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:PIA — MaterialWorks 01:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option * Countries should be added to the infobox iff they are belligerents. Selfstudier (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

So you don't have an opinion on which countries to add? I am a little confused by what you mean by "Option *". The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

It means the option I want is not in the list given. My comment is clear, countries should only be added to the infobox if (and only if) they are belligerents. In other words, those seeking to include any country need to demonstrate that the country being added is a belligerent. Selfstudier (talk) 20:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Genuine question, how is your option not on the list? It’s a yes/no/neutral question? I may be misinterpreting what you mean, but I’m taking this comment more as an option 3 i.e. no comment/neutral about the options listed, given you said your option “is not in the list given”? You are correct that it is the editor seeking Option 1 to demonstrate that a country deserves to be on the list. Forgive me, however, I truly am not sure how your option is not on the list, given the options are, in short, yes, no, or no comment. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Wait Selfstudier, I think you missed the note under the options. It isn’t a vote on “Do all six of these get added, Yes or No?” Picture this as combining 6 RfCs. For example, focus on 1 country at a time. Does the US deserve to be listed? Yes, No, or Unsure/Neutral? If yes, then the editor shows why it is yes. If no, the editor shows/explains why it is no. Then you move to the next country. Hopefully that clears it up. It really isn’t possible for your option to not show up in a Yes/No question, given there is really only 2 options, with Option 3 (Neutral) being a no comment answer. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I made my comment and I explained it as well. Selfstudier (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Not trying to be rude, but your explanation doesn't make sense. Sorry. Maybe someone else can better understand your explanation, but I personally do not. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:42, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Let the closer worry about what it means. Selfstudier (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter, my understanding is that @Selfstudier would respond your question Does x deserve to be listed as a belligerent? with the answer Only if it can be demonstrated that x is a belligerent. Otherwise, no. I do not believe the user intends to argue one way or another for any particular country or non-state actor - he simply sought to declare this rather circular axiom.

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 23:59, 24 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:PIA — MaterialWorks 01:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah that makes so much sense now. Very smart answer and I appreciate Selfstudier for answering that way. Thank you for explaining it some. Cheers y'all! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:43, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: I think WeatherWriter was confused because, while Countries should be added to the infobox iff they are belligerents. is a wonderful axiom, it is not in the slightest an answer to the question of "what should the infobox say". Walt Yoder (talk) 21:39, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose any being listed as belligerents Being a belligerent means taking part in a war.

I understand that the “supported by” parameter is now nominally deprecated. Pinging @Cinderella157 because he has been more directly involved in that than I was.

It may interest other editors to peruse Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine and its archives, for an interesting case study.

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

RadioactiveBoulevardier, I am glad you mentioned the "Supported by" parameter. Actually, in the first/poorly formatted RfC for this, Parham wiki made the comment that consensus can change. If the community decides to use a "supported by" parameter (as in the parent article Israeli–Palestinian conflict), then it can be used. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

A belligerent is a country fighting a war (see e.g. the Cambridge Dictionary), not one sympathising with a country fighting a war. So currently there are only two belligerents. Bermicourt (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Bermicourt, not sure if you made a typo, but the current version of the article lists 7 belligerents in the infobox, not 2. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:58, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps that wasn't totally clear. I'm happy with the existing list of belligerents in the infobox of the article as they're involved in fighting; I'm opposing adding the others suggested above as they are not. Bermicourt (talk) 08:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose adding any of the other countries mentioned as belligerents at this time. A single stray rocket, or shooting down of a stray rocket (especially when the exact circumstances of that are unclear), does not suddenly aggrandize the actors involved into belligerents. Most of the countries mentioned here are trying to stay well clear and avoid escalation. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose adding most; support adding the US: The US now appears to be putting significant boots on the ground, in addition to its other forms of material and personnel support. There are reports that US special forces entered Gaza.[1][2] And Delta teams are definitely being prepped for hostage extraction.(Biden's administration even moronically posted about it).[3][4][5] The country has clearly crossed the lined into active participation and belligerence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all additions. None of these groups are involved in active combat. Add them as belligerents only when the sources identify them as parties in the war the same way that they do for Israel or Hamas. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment — Iran has now accused (Wall Street Journal article) the United States of “orchestrating” Israel’s bombing campaign. “Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said the U.S. is orchestrating Israel’s bombing campaign in the Gaza Strip. “The US is definitely the Zionist regime’s accomplice in its crimes against Gaza. In fact, it is the US that is orchestrating the crimes being committed in Gaza.” The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:48, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  Governments are only reliable for the view of the government. You are going about this the wrong way, similar to the did Hamas occupy this territory RFC. If you want to say the US is a belligerent then find a reliable source that directly supports that. Not a series of events that you think makes it so this is true, but a source that reaches that conclusion for themselves. nableezy - 16:53, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  I did in my original reasoning. The US is supplying Israel with weapons and has already defended Israel militarily. I’m not going to repost my entire reasoning, as you can read it above. That comment from the Iranian government better supports my claim and reasoning for the US to be a belligerent, at least as a Supported By belligerent. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:56, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  Nowhere in that link does it say the US has joined the war, become a belligerent, or anything related to anything beside potentially "provided material support" to Israel. Again, a source that reaches the conclusion that these actions have made the US a belligerent in the conflict. Not actions you think qualify. nableezy - 17:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  “US military equipment pours into Israel”[6]. That source directly states the US is providing military material support. That justifies a “Supported By” inclusion of the United States. You need to find a source that says military material support does not justify one to be supporting a country in a war for your reasoning. I am WP:COALing out as I made my reasoning very clear and I have supported it in detail. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  It's a matter of editorial judgement, and so far, that judgement is no. Also you are making it rather clear the real reason why this RFC was started. Selfstudier (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

• I think this is rather simple. Identify a country as a belligerent if reliable sources do so. And that doesn't mean drawing that conclusion ourselves based on other reliably sourced facts. --Bsherr (talk) 19:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

  I would agree with this too, we can just follow the reliable sources. BogLogs (talk) 01:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well put. – SJ + 18:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all additions.Countries should be added to the infobox if they are belligerents, as said succinctly by Selfstudier or more explicitly None of these groups are involved in active combat, therefore they simply aren't belligerents. Clearly text should make clear who is supporting whom with hardware, diplomatically or in other ways, but (thank God), there are (as yet) no groups actively engaged in combat except Israel and Hamas and related groups. Isn't that bad enough? Pincrete (talk) 14:57, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
• Addendum added after RfC reopened. All these proposed additions fail WP:V. The sources and quotes cited are dependent on WP:OR or WP:SYNTH and don't come anywhere near the level of coverage or certainty that we would expect if the war had escalated in the manner implied. DFlhb's excellent list of sources outlined later, clearly show that all of these parties, particularly Hezbollah are being treated by the majority of sources from various countries as potential beligerents if the war escalates and any actual present military action is being treated as a 'border incident' or sabre-rattling. As User:DFlhb says If it met WP:V we wouldn't have needed an RfC, would we?. Pincrete (talk) 16:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Add: United States, Houthi, Iran.

Do not add: Saudi Arabia, Russia, Germany. Abo Yemen✉ 13:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all additions until RS states that they have troops actively taking part in the fighting. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Hezbollah, oppose all others as per other users below. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 17:25, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• Note – Hezbollah was added to the RfC discussion as there was a disagreement between editors and agreement to merge Hezbollah's belligerent discussion into this RfC. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:23, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all except Hezbollah. None of these countries have deployed their own militaries for combat, and "supported by" has been deprecated. Hezbollah, on the other hand, initiated a low-intensity war on day two officially "in solidarity" with the Palestinians. ([7]) Hamas has operatives in Lebanon who can only operate with the cooperation and the consent of Hezbollah, and they have done so since the start of the war. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 12:59, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• Add Hezbollah per @Mikrobølgeovn Parham wiki (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• Close RFC there's no way we're realistically getting a consensus from this RFC query, which is simultaneously too complex and also too simplistic (encouraging voting rather than citation of sources that actually describe these entities as belligerents, and inherently inviting false equivalences). These should be discussed group by group. Also, it's worth noting that the situation in this conflict is changing more or less daily at this point so a month-long RFC is going to be a challenge. There should be no rush to get belligerents added, of course, since we're not a newspaper and there's no deadline. VQuakr (talk) 22:00, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• Add Hezbollah per @Mikrobølgeovn and also Add Syria Hezbollah has stated they are fighting in support of the Palestinians in Gaza and the fighting at the border of Lebanon and Israel has been described as a second front in the Israel-Gaza conflict. As for Syria, Israel itself said it is attacking it to prevent Iran from providing support to Hamas. Thus Hezbollah, Lebanon and Syria should be reinstated as soon as possible. Also, as per Wiki procedure, it shouldn't have been removed in the first place since a discussion was first supposed to have taken place, while the contested issue remained in a status-quo from before being contested. EkoGraf (talk) 01:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Editors here are coming up with their own arguments for including Hezbollah (or anyone else) rather than pointing to the many sources recording the escalation - which undoubedly would exist - if sources considered these 'border skirmishes' really were part of (not loosely related to) this war. Doesn't that concern anyone? That editors here have decided there has been an escalation before sources or official bodies have! Pincrete (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, basically every RFC about combatants or status or maps has been a series of exercises in original research. nableezy - 15:58, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

"For Hezbollah, heating up the Lebanon-Israel border has a clear purpose, Kassem said: "We are trying to weaken the Israeli enemy and let them know that we are ready." [...] "Do you believe that if you try to crush the Palestinian resistance, other resistance fighters in the region will not act?" Kassem said in a speech Saturday during the funeral of a Hezbollah fighter. "We are in the heart of the battle today. We are making achievements through this battle." [8] Original research, was it? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 16:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, because all that supports is a Hezbollah leader saying they are in the heart of the battle. It does not provide a third party reliable source saying that to be true as a fact. I dont get how this doesnt make sense to so many people who have been here as long as they have. A source has to directly support the material you want to include in a Wikipedia article. This source directly supports that Naim Kassem said these things. What is still needed is a third party source saying this makes them actively engaged in this conflict. nableezy - 21:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

No original research. Israel itself considers what is happening on the border with Lebanon part of the Gaza war. See here [9]. Title "Authorities name 315 soldiers, 58 police officers killed in Gaza war". The IDF has published the names of 315 soldiers "killed during the ongoing war with Palestinian terrorists since October 7, mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip", they then further expand stating the number includes soldiers killed on both the Lebanon border and in the West Bank. EkoGraf (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel itself considers what is happening on the border with Lebanon part of the Gaza war. No disrespect, but newspapers connected to either of the two main beligerents should not define who is or isn't a 'beligerent'. Were I to suggest that the US - or any other group or nation - should be considered a beligerent because a Hamas source had said so, editors would probably - quite rightly - roll about in incredulous laughter. This isn't a question of reliability, there are very understandable reasons why an Israeli newspaper, addressing an Israeli audience would be inclined to think of all current actions against Israel as being part of the same existential threat. We should require more robust analysis and more explicit and specific claims however. Pincrete (talk) 16:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Fully agree on exercises in original research. We can't add Hezbollah as a belligerent; see "What's Hezbollah's role in the Israel-Hamas conflict so far?" from Reuters: there have been skirmishes, but not a full frontal war. The NYT says Hezbollah has so far been "restrained", has "engaged only in limited skirmishes with Israeli troops", and currently "sits on the sidelines of the conflict"; the article goes into the reasons why Hezbollah hasn't joined the war; it quotes the Lebanese foreign minister saying "my impression is that they won’t start a war". An expert is quoted saying: “Hezbollah today is in a position to inflict pain on Israel if they choose to enter this war,” said Maha Yahya, the director of the Carnegie Middle East Center in Beirut (italics mine). That's as of today! Arguments that are based on OR by definition lack policy basis. DFlhb (talk) 12:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

"These clashes have led to a rising death toll on both sides, sparking fears of a new war front" ... "Which leads to the second front: Israel against Iran and its other proxies. That is, Hezbollah in Lebanon and Syria, Islamist militias in Syria and Iraq and the Houthi militia in Yemen. All of them in recent days have launched drones and rockets toward Israel or at U.S. forces in Iraq and Syria." West Bank a possible 'THIRD front' for Israel

It's not about Hezbollah entering or not entering the war, but whether or not the clashes will cross a threshold of escalation (or "full frontal war", as Reuters put it). As of October 26, Hezbollah had lost 46 fighters. That would have been a rather high death toll for an 18-day period during Hezbollah's first war with Israel. Hezbollah itself says that it initiated these clashes as part of the war Hamas started, and as another editor pointed out, Israel too considers them part of that war. Add in the active involvement of Hamas fighters on the Lebanese-Israeli front, and it is starting to look increasingly absurd that this front is left out of the infobox. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Your first and third source frame Hezbollah/Lebanon as a potential future front, not a current front; they contradict you. The second source is considered generally unreliable. The next paragraph is original research contradicted by sources. It's true that the skirmishes are a response to the Israel-Hamas war, but it is also irrelevant. DFlhb (talk) 21:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

What part of what I wrote is contradicted by sources? Both Israel and Hezbollah consider the clashes as part of the war; the only ones arguing otherwise are seemingly Wikipedia editors. (Also, read again the part about threshold of escalation. There is no contradiction at all. The first source makes a distinction between a full-scale and a limited war.) Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 01:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

We can't include something that fails WP:V, or side with original research over sources; this is sensitive enough that we need to be careful. Sources say Hezbollah has not yet joined the war. That makes them not a belligerent.

• New York Times, yesterday
  • Hezbollah sits on the sidelines of the conflict and will enter the war if... (future tense). That's from yesterday.
  • They quote an expert: inflict pain on Israel if they choose to enter this war (hypothetical)
  • Quotes another expert: The stakes for getting involved are high for Hezbollah (implying they are not yet involved).
• Washington Post, October 29
  • “All Western countries are talking to us, are sending their ambassadors, saying Hezbollah must not enter the war,” said a senior Lebanese official (implying they haven't entered the war yet)
• Bloomberg, October 23
  • Israel’s military spokesperson Daniel Hagari said the fighting with Hezbollah “is mainly in the contact line.” Hezbollah has adopted similar rhetoric, saying the clashes remain within the so-called “rules of engagement,” which limits the battle to Lebanese areas Hezbollah considers occupied.
  • Hezbollah has so far not entered real combat with Israel (as explicit as can be)
• CNN, October 11
  • Senior administration officials do not believe at this point that Hezbollah is likely to join Hamas’ war in force against Israel, and officials think the warnings are having an impact even though there have been some escalation on the border. They're saying Hezbollah had not joined the war, despite the skirmishes.
• FT, October 11 (after the skirmishes escalated)
  • Quotes an expert: If it’s a ground invasion [...], Hezbollah will feel compelled to join [the war] (future tense).
  • Says: Hizbollah’s entry into the war would have profound implications, and Hizbollah’s participation could also trigger, and Joining the war would be (all hypotheticals).
  • You (and others) say the skirmishes make Hezbollah a belligerent in this war. That's WP:OR. The FT describes them as belligerents in a flareup of the separate, decades-long Hezbollah-Israel conflict. You are confusing the flareup being a reaction to this war, with the flareup being part of this war. FT quote two experts who say years-old "red lines" (preceding this conflict) have not been crossed, which concurs with the Bloomberg quote above.
• Bloomberg, published October 11 but still on their main page:
  • if Hezbollah were to enter the war (hypothetical)

Even if you dispute this, logically, if there's any ambiguity, it belongs in the body not the infobox. Note Hezbollah is already listed as a belligerent in 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes, where it belongs, and we describe that as a "spillover" of this war. RfCs based on WP:OR are a waste of everyone's time, and I wish we'd treat them as malformed. If it met WP:V we wouldn't have needed an RfC, would we? DFlhb (talk) 11:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC) edited 12:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Restore Hezbollah to the infobox and add the Houthis - Hezbollah has clearly stated that it is participating in the conflict and is actively participating, there has been sustained combat on the northern border with israel since the war began. The Houthis have also launched attacks.XavierGreen (talk) 21:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Add Hezbollah per users above. W9793 (talk)
• Add Hezbollah since it is directly involved in the war at the North of the country. Houthis can also be added since they openly declared that they fired the missiles. My very best wishes (talk) 23:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Add the Houthis and the United States. The US has stated it shot down missiles heading towards Israel, and NPR (a RS) stated[10] this action "could represent the first shots taken by the U.S. military in defense of Israel".VR _talk 02:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

  "Could represent" does not mean "is". Levivich (talk) 19:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

• Add US, Houthis and Hezbollah. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:56, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose all If any of those named become actively and significantly involved in the fighting, RS will clearly identify them as combattants. This is not currently the case. SPECIFICO talk 16:39, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose all as almost all sources avoid making such obviously contentious statements. This is why we avoid original research. Per DFlhb this is not a good use of RfC energy; @WeatherWriter: please be more careful in how you solicit people's time. – SJ + 18:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose all per DF and SJ et al. The sources don't support listing anyone else as a belligerent, and proposals to add belligerents to the infobox need to come with sources describing the proposed parties as belligerents -- not potential belligerents -- in order to comply with WP:V. Levivich (talk) 19:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

RFC on infobox casualties

How, or should, casualties in the infobox be presented?

1. Attributed with an endnote as in the current version as of this writing
2. Attributed for all numbers inline as in this version
3. Attributed only for Gaza numbers and Israeli numbers for Palestinians killed in Israel as in this version
4. Not in the infobox at all

Nableezy 13:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• 1 - standard across a range of articles, and both sets of data generally get the same level of attribution. Examples: ABC: More than 1,400 people have been killed in Israel, including children, and more than 4,500 people have been injured, Israeli officials said ... At least 3,400 people have been killed in Gaza and more than 12,000 have been injured, according to the Palestinian Health Authority.; WSJ: Israeli authorities said 1,200 had died during attacks by Hamas militants that began Saturday with intense rocket fire and an infiltration of fighters. More than 2,800 have been injured. The Palestinian Health Ministry said 1,100 people had died as a result of Israeli retaliatory strikes on Gaza with some 5,339 injured.; Washington Post: Palestinian authorities said Israeli strikes have killed at least 5,087 people in Gaza and wounded more than 15,200. In Israel, more than 1,400 people have been killed and more than 5,400 injured since Hamas’s attack on Oct. 7, according to Israeli authorities. At least 32 U.S. nationals were among those killed. A wide range of sources attribute Gazan deaths to the Gazan authorities and Israeli deaths to the Israeli authorities, and of course they would because who else would have these numbers? But, as the Washington Post reported, there isnt anything particularly odd about using numbers from the combatants, and for the Gaza ministry "Many experts consider figures provided by the ministry reliable, given its access, sources and accuracy in past statements." There isnt a reason to clutter up the infobox with inline attribution to what is already attributed with an endnote, and there certainly is not cause for treating the figures differently in the infobox as though Israeli numbers are unassailable and Palestinian numbers are presumed suspect. nableezy - 13:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Id like to add in response to the supposed random sampling of sources, those arent sources that are typically focused on Israeli casualties, because they have not largely changed in the past weeks it has become background information to the topic the sources are focused on. But when sources actually focused on casualties report on them they always attribute both Israeli and Palestinian casualties to the respective authorities. For example the UN reporting on casualty counts: "According to Israeli official sources quoted by OCHA, some 1,400 people have been killed in Israel, the vast majority in the Hamas attacks on 7 October which triggered the latest conflict." nableezy - 14:13, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

• 2 or 3, weakly leaning towards 3. We are required to follow reliable sources; if reliable sources agree on something and present it without qualification then we can do so. If, however, they don't - if they disagree, or consistently present it with qualification - then we are required to do the same.

In this case, in a random sample of 20 sources I found that 80% attributed Palestinian casualties; see below for evidence and methodology. It would be highly inappropriate, and a violation of WP:V, for us to go beyond what sources do and present this as uncontested fact.

Sources are more confident about Israeli casualties; in a random sample of 20 sources, I found that 25% attributed while 75% did not; see below for evidence and methodology. As such, it would be more appropriate for us to put those casualties in Wikivoice.

In general, the option of attributed with an endnote is not acceptable; if we need to attribute then we need to attribute in a way that the reader will see the attribution, and while I don't have the figures I doubt endnotes are typically read; I know I rarely read them. and with only one in seventy page views resulting in any engagement with footnotes we know that vanishingly few readers will see them. 16:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

BilledMammal (talk) 13:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I went through the first 10 "Sources for Israeli casualties" and found 90% of these actually attribute them at some point in time, but not consistently, which is why we arrive at different results.

VR _talk 03:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• 3 or 2 this is one of those cases where sadly what would be normal elsewhere on wikipedia, ie using end notes, this topic area doesn't sit comfortably within those norms. There is a distinct credibility question here given past example where casualty numbers have been inflated and when subject to external verification found to be exaggerated. I would imagine this is why so many sources attribute the source of the information. If this doesn't fit then I'd support 4 with a suitable explanation in the article linked to the Infobox. WCM_email 14:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1 for readability. While I understand the credibility issue with the different governments involved, I believe that endnotes are sufficient as readers with inquiring minds will read the notes (I always do). I would guess that most who wouldn't read the endnotes are also those who generally wouldn't pay it any mind if it were inline. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 15:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1 For reasons said by AquilaFasciata. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, stating who the claim belongs in the infobox bloats what is supposed to be a very brief summary of the article. In line notes are going to be seen by whoever is checking the reference as references are placed in the notes. Ecrusized (talk) 15:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  In line notes are going to be seen by whoever is checking the reference as references are placed in the notes. According to a 2020 study, just one in seventy pageviews result in at least one engagement with footnotes. Ideally, readers would engage with the little blue boxes at the end of our sentences - but they don't, and we can't write articles operating under the assumption that they do. BilledMammal (talk) 15:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  Infoboxes need to be KISS, not complicated. If we want to discuss reliability (rather than trying to imply lack of it), then let's do that in the article itself and trust our dear readers read that. Selfstudier (talk) 17:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  If we can't provide all information necessary to comply with core policies like WP:V and WP:NPOV, which includes attribution, without overly complicating the infobox, then we can't include any of the information in the infobox; we should instead direct the reader to a more expansive section which can provide this information. BilledMammal (talk) 01:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• 1 There is no reason to reinvent the wheel for a particular case. If there is some debate about reliability, it can be addressed properly within the article itself, rather than trying to do that in an infobox.Selfstudier (talk) 17:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1. The reliability of the Gaza estimates has been, as it always is, questioned by the two major adversary actors, the United States and Israel. These are political statements. Over the past 4 wars, independent analysts have generally found the Gaza figures quite, if approximately, accurate, and not overblown for propaganda purposes. Cf. Chris McGreal, Can we trust casualty figures from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry? The Guardian 26 October 2023. 1 is how we typically do this, and we should not make exceptions here, where the (d)fog of war also consists in heavy infofare.Nishidani (talk) 17:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  Other sources, like this one, say that while historically the figures have tended to be reliable, recent events have called them into question. Further, there are issues in that they claim all casualties to be "victims of “Israeli aggression.”" - regardless of whether they were killed by Israeli action or Palestinian. BilledMammal (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• 1 - infobox is a place for the best available information, not over-complication. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  Succinct and reasonable, well said. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• 1 Reading the recent Guardian story analysing the claims [11], it seems that the claims from the Gaza health ministry have been historically regarded by the media as reliable, and the deaths are proportionate to the actual volume of destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza during this conflict, compared to the deaths reported in previous Gaza conflicts. Israel is a belligerent in this conflict and its ally the United States cannot be considered impartial when it comes to their criticism of these numbers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1 for: simplicity. Hemiauchenia's Guardian article is a good argument for 1 too (and a good argument against 3). Readers know attribution is available in the footnote, if they're interested in that. But I think it's pretty self-evident that the numbers are sourced to each party. DFlhb (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1. Echoing Hemiauchenia's argument, and the complete absence of any sources that give competing numbers. Inline attribution in this case would be similar to using "scare quotes" or when we use the word "claim" (WP:WTA); in both cases we are not being neutral but we are casting doubt.VR _talk 01:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 2. The doubts regarding the figures do not come only from Israel and the US. The Guardian article mentions the opinion of a former Reuters bureau chief in Jerusalem calling for skepticism. Also, even HRW's Shakir says that the "estimates of death tolls immediately after an attack should be distinguished from calculations based on recorded data." Alaexis_¿question? 07:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

  Shakir goes on to say "“Generally this data is catalogued in a way that there are detailed breakdowns that include identifying information about each person. That’s part of why we believe this to be reliable.” The identifying information includes such details as ID numbers, so any exaggeration or falsehood would be easily detectable. Pincrete (talk) 11:31, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• 1 as it does not clutter up the box so much, but readers can tell where info is from, and determine the trustworthiness of the sources. As I said before, these figures can get much better clarification in the section of the article. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1: Less clutter, and the data seems reliable enough, per the WHO. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 14:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1: per Hemiauchenia. --Andreas JN466 15:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 3 survey of the reliable sources seems to make the distinction only for the Gaza Health Ministry reported numbers, and above all else we really should be striving to follow secondary sources. microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish)} 15:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 4 per User:Meeepmep here, which should be fixed to redirect the "Casualties and losses" to the body of the article. Also OK with 3.5 it seems that option '2' adequately addresses this 2 The sources of the numbers from both sides should be explicitly disclosed in text. During a war, it's typical to view casualty reports and enemy kill counts from both fighting parties with some skepticism. When we include these figures in our text or infobox, we should explicitly identify the source of the numbers rather than concealing the attribution in a footnote. Infinity Knight (talk) 18:30, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 3 Per Joseph Biden, here, "But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using." Me neither. With those doubts, especially from the guy who is not me, we need to be as clear as possible as to the source. Maybe a bit more clutter than some would like, but we're being straight with our readers.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1 (but also voted above): its important to note this RfC question is only about the infobox, not about the body of the article. For the infobox, just like the WP:LEAD, we must necessarily be concise. I support in-line attribution (along with necessary context) for the body of the article, but not the lead or infobox.VR _talk 03:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• 2 The second item (2) looks to be more informative and appropriate for the readers; i.e. "Attributed for all numbers inline..." Ali Ahwazi (talk) 04:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• 1 There is no reason to reinvent the wheel for a particular case. per Selfstudier and there is no reason to think the GHM figures are any less accurate than the 'fog of war' allows - despite what Joe Biden may think. Indeed, HGM according to the Gdn and others "also issued a 212-page list of the names and identity numbers of every Palestinian it says has been killed in the Israeli bombardment. Unless doctors and admins are complicit in fabricating death certificates etc, these numbers are about as cast-iron certain as they could possibly be, and it would easily provable if significant faking or exaggerating were happening. Pincrete (talk) 11:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
• 2 or 3. An explicit attribution of such numbers to the sides of the conflict is important. Version "1" does not really provide such attribution. Even if one follows the footnotes in version "1", it is not immediately clear which side is responsible for which number. My very best wishes (talk) 16:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  If one follows the footnotes, this information is absolutely clear. And it's also clear in the body of the article. VR _talk 23:04, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• 2 is best, as it is NPOV and gives plenty of information without cluttering up the box unduly, and follows practice with other contentious conflicts. 1 is acceptable as gives the full info, but requires more work of the inexperienced reader. 3 is unacceptable as POV. 4 is silly, as it departs from our principles of verifiability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Previous discussions

• Talk:2023_Israel–Hamas_war/Archive_20#Gaza_death_toll
• Talk:2023_Israel–Hamas_war/Archive_21#Casualties_infobox
• Talk:2023_Israel–Hamas_war/Archive_22#"Per_the_Gaza_Health_Ministry"
• Talk:2023_Israel–Hamas_war#infobox_attribution_inline

Discussion2

Feel free to add other options, those are the four that seem to have had any discussion at all from my memory. nableezy - 13:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

@Infinity Knight, Vice regent, Graeme Bartlett, Mistamystery, WillowCity, JM2023, and Hovsepig: Ping all editors eligible to participate who have participated in related discussions and have not participated in this one. BilledMammal (talk) 01:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry Hovsepig, WillowCity; I assumed you were both eligible without checking, but you are not. BilledMammal (talk) 01:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

You missed one off the top of my head, Jayen466. nableezy - 02:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

You're right, I did; I overlooked them at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Attributing casualties at 2023 Israel–Hamas war. (I also didn't ping ScottishFinishRadish, but that was deliberate because they weren't participating as an editor but as a moderator).

Thank you for correcting that; I've gone through the discussions again and don't believe I've missed anyone else. BilledMammal (talk) 02:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources for Palestinian casualties are *only* being provided by the Gaza Health Ministry. The almost immediate pronouncement of 500 dead (and a “destroyed hospital” that later turned out to be a parking lot) has thrown a massive shadow on any numbers the ministry provides and has provided. While I appreciate that the Ministry has generally considered to have been reliable during past periods and conflicts, the sheer nature of this conflict (especially the significance and severity of initial casualties on the Israeli side) gives the Hamas government ample cause to break this precedence and put the reputation of the Ministry on the line.

I see a large list of news sources above regarding Palestinian casualties, and it doesn’t change a simple fact that - as of today - has still not changed: there is no independent verification of casualties happening in Gaza, and we already have a major falsification event having already transpired.

I absolutely do not doubt that there are significant casualties on the Palestinian side, but - given the above information - I can only vouch for a (claimed) tag to be next to any/all Gaza casualty claims until their numbers can be independently verified…which may only happen after this phase of the conflict.

Mistamystery (talk) 07:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

There’s no independent verification for the Israeli numbers either. nableezy - 08:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health figures appear to be confirmed by the West Bank Ministry of Health (which is not controlled by Hamas):[12] As of Monday, more than 5,000 people have been killed in Gaza, and more than 15,000 have been injured since October 7, the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Health in the occupied West Bank reported. VR _talk 17:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources:- Gdn 27 Oct "Can we trust casualty figures from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry? Time 26 Oct"News outlets and international organizations and agencies have long relied on Israeli and Palestinian government sources for casualty figures. While they do so partly because they are unable to independently verify these figures themselves, it’s also because these statistics have proven accurate in the past."AP 26 Oct "EXPLAINER: What is Gaza's Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war's death toll?" "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions."The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis," said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. "But they largely reflect the level of death and injury." In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies." Hard to avoid the impression that the only reason for all the kerfuffle is the hospital explosion. Selfstudier (talk) 12:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

In a war, it's common to take the casualty reports and enemy kill counts from both sides with a grain of salt. For example, the Russians claim to have destroyed more M142 HIMARS systems in Ukraine than were actually provided to Ukraine has turned into a meme. It's important to note that numbers provided by both Israel and Hamas are often marked as "not verified," so attribution is essential when using them. What complicates things further is that Hamas is among the well-known international players. During this war, especially in incidents like the one at the hospital, independent sources had varying results when trying to confirm the numbers. As a result, news outlets like AP began using "disputed" since the hospital count was included in the overall figure. That's why we can't hide the disclaimer in the footnotes. Infinity Knight (talk) 16:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Discuss it in the article. If GHM were up at RSN for analysis, a generally reliable (which does not mean always reliable) result is likely based on the sources above. Selfstudier (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Recent AP John Kirby said: “The Ministry of Health is run by Hamas, and I think that all needs to be factored into anything that they put out publicly.”

Are you saying that you want to use the unattributed numbers from Hamas as those are "generally reliable" ? Infinity Knight (talk) 17:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

The NSC spokesman is a reliable source for the public position of the United States, thats it. nableezy - 17:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Is AP a reliable source? , according to the Health Ministry run by Hamas. That includes a disputed number of people who died in a hospital explosion earlier this week.

Are you saying that you want to use the unattributed numbers from Hamas as those are "generally reliable" ? Infinity Knight (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I dont think anybody has suggested no attribution. See straw man. nableezy - 17:45, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

What's the functional difference between your method of attribution, where our readers won't see it, and no attribution? BilledMammal (talk) 02:25, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I know you posted something on percentage checking footnotes, but I dont know if that also refers to end notes, or if they are more likely to check some notes than others, as in for an ongoing war will they check references more than they would for an article on rainbows and flowers. So I dont put a whole lot of stock in to this our readers wont see it mantra, and I dont see the need to respond to it. But the functional difference is one has an attribution with an endnote and no attribution has no attribution at all. nableezy - 02:28, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

but I dont know if that also refers to end notes If refers to all footnotes.

as in for an ongoing war will they check references more than they would for an article on rainbows and flowers The paper addresses this question; readers are less likely to check references on articles that are above start and stub class (this article is B-Class) and readers are less like to check references on longer articles (this article is very long). Readers are also more likely to check footnotes that are related to people's social and private lives; "baby", "wife", "instragram", etc; readers are less likely to engage with references on this topic than they are on other topics.

The figure I gave above is that one in seventy will engage with footnotes; what I didn't say, as the detail seemed unnecessary, is that for this article that is a hopelessly optimistic figure; this article ticks all the boxes to drag that engagement down. Further, one in seventy engage with any footnote; the chance that those engagements relate to these footnotes is far lower. BilledMammal (talk) 02:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

What I see in the paper abstract is it is discussing citations. And I dont really think you have any way of determining the percentages on this article, but I also dont find it especially relevant. Does it break down notes in an infobox vs footnotes in the lead vs later in the article? Does it break it down by how in the news an article is? There are way too many things that are unanswerable about how a reader will engage with this article that it seems totally pointless to even pretend like it is relevant to the question here. nableezy - 03:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

What I see in the paper abstract is it is discussing citations. The paper is focused on citations but also discusses footnotes.

And I dont really think you have any way of determining the percentages on this article, but I also dont find it especially relevant. It's not relevant that all the evidence we have tells us that readers won't see the attribution when it is in the form you propose? Saying "we know readers don't normally see these, but maybe this article is an exception" isn't a productive or convincing argument, particularly when it is in regards to something as important as compliance with core content policies. BilledMammal (talk) 03:21, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like something you should bring elsewhere for a discussion of infoboxes and reader interaction with them across all articles, seems particularly lacking in relevance here. Selfstudier (talk) 10:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

The question here is whether a particular method of attribution is functional; whether readers will actually see the attribution. Strong evidence that they won’t is highly relevant. BilledMammal (talk) 10:47, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

You have seen my !vote? That's what I am saying viz a viz the RFC, the generally reliable is based on my own analysis of the recent RS (those above + WAPO) debating the question of reliability of GHM in general, not news snippets where there is no consistency, I can easily find articles where they don't say. Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Reuters 27 Oct "Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable Selfstudier (talk) 17:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

See [13] which talks to this in more depth. The source for these numbers has proved reliable in the past. Of course this is not a guarantee and the numbers should still be attributed. The USA gov't consistently lied about deaths in the VN War. "In war, truth is the first casualty." attributed to Aeschylus. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

When incorporating figures from each side into our text, it's important to openly specify the source of these numbers rather than burying the attribution in a footnote. Infinity Knight (talk) 18:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

As suggested by Meeepmep here, I would appreciate the modification of

• 4 change to redirect the "Casualties and losses" to the body of the article

* 3.5 The sources of the numbers from both sides should be explicitly disclosed in text seems like a reasonable choice to me. it seems that option '2' adequately addresses this

Infinity Knight (talk) 19:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Wehwalt, Joe Biden isnt a reliable source, whereas reliable sources have said they do have confidence in the numbers. But regardless, is there a reason you think we should attribute only one set of numbers in text but not the other set? nableezy - 22:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Biden isn't a WP:RS but he has access to a lot more information than you and me. As for the sets of numbers, there seems to be considerably more dispute over one set than the other, and I haven't read of the POTUS questioning the other set in the same manner. Wehwalt (talk) 23:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but why would the political head of an ally of one of the combatants be the person that would determine which set of numbers is in question? nableezy - 23:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I did some additional analysis, looking at news articles published by the New York Times in the past week mentioning "Gaza Health Ministry". Of these, 16 say "Hamas-run" or similar, while just four omit any mention of Hamas' control of ministry. This is additional evidence that we should be attributing these figures to the Hamas-run ministry.

"Hamas-run" or similar:

1. Israel-Hamas War (October 31)
2. Israel Struck a Dense Area in Gaza, Saying It Killed Hamas Militants
3. Israeli Troops Battle Into Gaza as Airstrike Draws Conflicting Claims
4. Israel-Hamas War (November 1)
5. Israel Confirms Deaths of 15 Soldiers in Ground Invasion of Gaza
6. Wednesday Briefing
7. ‘A Very Slow Game:’ Why the Pace of Israel’s Ground Operation Counts
8. Israelis Advance on Gaza City, as Netanyahu Rules Out Cease-Fire
9. Israel-Hamas War (October 30)
10. Democratic Rifts Over Israel Burst to the Forefront in Congress
11. Israel-Hamas War (November 2)
12. Israel-Hamas War (October 29)
13. ‘You Think of Dying at Any Time’
14. Israel-Hamas War (October 28)
15. What We Know About the War Between Israel and Hamas
16. Israel-Hamas War (November 2)

Only "Gaza Health Ministry":

1. After Years of Vowing to Destroy Israel, Iran Faces a Dilemma
2. Blinken Meets Arab Ministers in Bid to Calm Outrage Over Gaza Airstrikes
3. Israel-Hamas War (November 4)
4. 34 Hours of Fear: The Blackout That Cut Gaza Off From the World

BilledMammal (talk) 03:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Israel–Hamas war
Location {{{place}}}
Casualties and losses
11,278 killed 27,620 wounded 2,660 missing 200 captured (inside Israel)	1,450+ killed 5,433 wounded 245 hostages 28 missing
(Full list) 1,500,000 Palestinians displaced in Gaza 200,000 Israelis displaced

I'm realizing that the casualties is just a lot of information that is being pulled into efns in a desperate attempt to be concise. We're specifying the geography of the losses (West Bank, Israel, Gaza Strip, etc.), the primary source, and by the victims (civilians, medical workers, children). It's quite a lot of information, so it might be best to summarize the casualties and link to a table further into the article. To the right is my suggestion for the infobox, and below is a table. SWinxy (talk) 02:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

	Location	Killed	Wounded	Captured	Missing
Palestinian(?)	Gaza Strip (per Gaza Health Ministry)	10,022	25,408 (70% women and children)		2,660
	Israel (per Israel)	1,000+		200 captured
	West Bank (per Palestinian Authority)	153		2,200 wounded
	Lebanon (per Hezbollah, Lebanon and Israel)	87
	Syria (per Syrian Observatory for Human Rights)	16 (14 soldiers, 2 civilians)	12 (7 soldiers, 5 civilians)
Israeli(?)	Israel (per Israel)	1,416+	5,433	245	28 missing
	Gaza	30
	West Bank	4

Reflist and notes
References Notes

Map update

It appears Israel withdrew from Saladin road after a brief occupation https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-october-30-2023 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/gaza-government-says-israeli-tanks-withdraw-from-main-highway-after-brief-incursion/3037802#:~:text=GAZA%20CITY%2C%20Palestine,Office%20said%20in%20a%20statement. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Is it really just me and Levivich that see the issue with this attempt at keeping a real time update for a map of a war? nableezy - 04:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Just you and Levivic. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Also me; it's not as much a problem for wars like the Russian-Ukraine war, where movement is slow and well documented, but the situation here is changing far too rapidly for us to have a map like this. BilledMammal (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria: Updated, thanks. You can also use Inkscape or Adobe Illustrator or any other vector editor to modify the file. Ecrusized (talk) 08:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The map should go, any map like this is dated as soon as made.Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I've removed it, per WP:ONUS; given the opposition expressed here there doesn't seem to be any affirmative consensus to include it. I wouldn't object to a map that didn't try to show details of the current invasion. BilledMammal (talk) 02:12, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I dont think this is an appropriate use of ONUS, but Ive added a map of Gaza, if theres one that also has the surrounding Israeli communities it should be used, I just dont know what that would be. nableezy - 03:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

commons:File:The Gaza Strip & West Bank - a map folio LOC 2011591411-24.tif - the only alternatives I can currently find are from 1993, and I think that is too out of date for us to use here. BilledMammal (talk) 03:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Abo Yemen could you please explain this reversion? nableezy - 13:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

the old "outdated" map was better than the alternative Abo Yemen✉ 14:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

someone just needs to add the map date Abo Yemen✉ 14:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

What if we use this map? It includes more detail about the current conflict, and doesn't have the issue of trying to reflect the minute-by-minute situation on the ground. BilledMammal (talk) 14:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This link shows the arabic version of it (for me atleast). I am okay with using that version Abo Yemen✉ 14:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The english version* Abo Yemen✉ 14:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

fine with this too. Was going to suggest uploading an older version to a new name to use that actually. nableezy - 14:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I swapped it with File:October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict - as of Oct 27.svg (slightly newer than the one BM linked to), which I meant to upload locally but accidentally uploaded to Commons. Levivich (talk) 06:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Levivich: I don't see a consensus or a reason to swap the map with a version prior to the invasion. Furthermore, most users disagreeing with you in the previous discussion were not properly informed of this new discussion. The map only cites the Institute for the Study of War for the Israeli control. There neither a synth nor an OR problem with it. Ecrusized (talk) 07:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Pinging @WeatherWriter, Veggies, and The Great Mule of Eupatoria:

@Miki1234568: Can you explain this reversion? This is disputed material and shouldn't be restored without an affirmative consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 15:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: If users want it restored, that means there is no such consensus to remove it. Also see my comment above. It's not very nice to open a new discussion without notifying those who have supported keeping the file. Ecrusized (talk) 19:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

That's not how this works; this is disputed content, and per WP:ONUS an affirmative consensus is needed to include it. I've removed it again; please do not restore it again without obtaining such a consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 09:10, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: You've restored the map, again. Can you please point to the affirmative consensus required to include it? BilledMammal (talk) 12:03, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

This is the first time I am restoring the map. Multiple users besides me have previously restored it. I think you need to look at yourself before accusing other. Ecrusized (talk) 12:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, you're right; I confused you with Miki1234568. Regardless, WP:ONUS applies; can you provide a link to the affirmative consensus for its inclusion? If you can not you are not permitted to restore it, per WP:ONUS. BilledMammal (talk) 12:09, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

War articles without maps are not a good idea. If it's just the problem of real time update, I think simply adding "as of ..." to the caption can solve it. BlackShadowG (talk) 15:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Precisely. -- Veggies (talk) 16:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

The issue is we don't know that the map is "as of"; we don't have any reliable sources that support the exact map we present - we have reliable sources supporting aspects of it, but not the totality. BilledMammal (talk) 04:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Am I missing something? The map is drawn from the analyses done by the Institute for the Study of War, which is good enough to be cited and published by the Wall Street Journal [14]. What's the problem? -- Veggies (talk) 06:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Our map doesn't match the ISW map. BilledMammal (talk) 06:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course not. It's an SVG with an embedded image of only so much resolution, not an ArcGIS layer overlay on proprietary satellite images. We make the best good-faith effort to emulate what ISW has published and reliable sources have cited. If there's an issue with inaccuracy, you should probably bring that up to User:Ecrusized or myself and we can correct it. But that's not what you've been doing. You've been claiming that the map is per se "disputed" despite other editor's attempts to explain the sourcing to you and you've been aggressively insisting that there's no "affirmative consensus" to include the map. That's a serious misread of the BRD process and smacks of ownership behavior. I would suggest that you take a breather. -- Veggies (talk) 06:51, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

It goes beyond that. For example, our map shows some areas as under Israeli control, while for the same areas ISW only says claimed control. BilledMammal (talk) 06:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Again: that's an accuracy issue, and one that can be easily corrected for graphically. It's also an issue that you did not—until this very moment—bring up, insisting instead on an "affirmative consensus" standard and striking the map entirely from the infobox repeatedly, then demanding that anyone who restored it adhere to your "affirmative consensus" standard. That's not what I call assuming good faith. -- Veggies (talk) 07:00, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Assuming good faith means assuming that you believe the map to be accurate and to improve the article. I believe that to be true; it doesn't mean assuming that the inclusion is policy-compliant when I have reasons to believe it is not. BilledMammal (talk) 07:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

"take a breather" My exact thoughts. After leaving 4 blank canvas template warnings on my talk page after repeatedly telling them to stop bothering me, BilledMamal went through my contributions from the previous week, in bad faith, trying to find edits where I might have violated 1RR and presented them to arbitration board. In an unsuccessful attempt to have me blocked because I reverted them once on the map. Ecrusized (talk) 10:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Yemeni Houthis in infobox

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

WP:SNOW close as consensus against this proposal Mach61 (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Should the Houthi movement be placed in the infobox as a belligerent of this war? I don't think they should. Houthis have fired a few missiles at Israel during this conflict, which have been intercepted. It is WP:SYNTH to place them on the infobox based on this information. Ecrusized (talk) 20:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• RFC above. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Houthi movement should not be in the infobox. However, I'm open to reconsidering if they actually play a real role in this conflict. Right now their involvement is too limited/insignificant and it feels more like a recruitment/PR move than one of serious military support. RisingTzar (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Support - originally I would say oppose, but after the movement reportedly launched an attack on Israel AND various Houthi officials said, such as Abdelaziz bin Habtour, said they were "part of the axis of resistance" against Israel, and vowed additional attacks, it makes sense to include them.--Historyday01 (talk) 02:42, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support - kind of obvious with them literally announcing their involvement and continued interest in being involved. Ultimograph5 (talk) 04:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support - Clearly the Ansarallah movement has announced and begun a missile/drone campaign on southern Israel so this war isn't limited to Gazan factions but I also believe we should re-instate Hezbollah on the infobox since it has caused Israeli combatant deaths in the north as well as civilian in their rocket attacks on the north. They began their campaign on the first day of this war.

It may be even better to add in brackets that its involvement is limited, e.g. Hezbollah (limited) or Ansar Allah (limited) RamHez (talk) 04:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, it doesn't feel right to have Houthis and not Hezbollah when Hezbollah is arguably playing a much more significant role here. That's why this should be opposed as there is no symmetry. RisingTzar (talk) 06:09, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Why not get rid of the 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes page and just move it into a page about spillover conflicts? That way things should be more consistent and the page could discuss Hezbollah and Houthi actions, along with any other new actor if the conflict expands further? RisingTzar (talk) 06:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Because its not "spillover, as articulated by multiple editors above, the actions of Hezbollah and the Houthis are intentional belligerent acts that are a part of the same war. "Spillover" would be something unintentional, like the Houthi strikes that hit Egypt.XavierGreen (talk) 15:04, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

P.S. in that case 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes's infobox really shouldn't be described as "spillover", the actions that are carried out are very deliberate and calculated. RisingTzar (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Support. Add Houthis and Hezbollah. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support of course. They, straight up, just declared themselves an active party to the war in a televised statement as the given Reuters source in the infobox currently states. VintageVernacular (talk) 11:40, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Informal discussion about 2024 renaming

It's almost November now; there seems to be a very good chance this continues into 2024. It is far too early for a formal move request, but let us get just brainstorm a few ideas about what we should rename this article if the war carries on into 2024. That way, we get any major disputes out of the way before the last few days of December. Bremps... 02:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd vote for "2023-2024 Israel–Hamas war" if that happens, or "2023-2024 Hamas-Israel war" if the above requested move/name change happens. Historyday01 (talk) 02:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Just to brainstorm, it would probably be retitled Israel-Hamas war (2023-present) similar to battles in Marinka and Avdiivka that began early last year. Jebiguess (talk) 02:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This one. DFlhb (talk) 08:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This would be the best title to use if it indeed continues into 2024. Simplistic, straight to the point. Nintenga (talk) 17:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

It'll be Israel–Hamas war (2023-present) or Hamas–Israel war (2023-present) per WP:AND Abo Yemen✉ 06:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to move groups except Hamas into a collapsible list in the infobox

Proposed infobox
Location .
Belligerents
Hamas Palestinian Islamic Jihad Other groups: PFLP DFLP Other organizations Houthi movement	Israel
Commanders and leaders
Ismail Haniyeh Mohammed Deif Yahya Sinwar Abu Obaida Murad Abu Murad † Others: Ziyad al-Nakhalah Abu Hamza Abu Jamal Abu Khaled	Benjamin Netanyahu Benny Gantz Yoav Gallant Herzl Halevi Yoel Strick Tomer Bar Yaakov Shabtai Ronen Bar Yaron Finkelman
Units involved
Al-Qassam Brigades Nukhba Others: Al-Quds Brigades National Resistance Brigades Other armed groups	Israel Defense Forces Israel Police Shin Bet Armed Israeli civilians

The purpose of an infobox is to provide a brief summary of the article for the reader. However, in its current form, with all the groups participating, it can be confusing for readers. To avoid this confusion, I suggest moving all the groups except Hamas under a collapsible list. So far, only 1% of the fighting has taken place outside of Gaza Strip and with groups other than Hamas. Therefore, the infobox is creating undue weight of the conflict. Please see the examples provided below. Ecrusized (talk) 12:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I think PIJ was a major belligerent on October 7 and even holds some of the hostages. The rest we can collapse. VR _talk 14:28, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

That could also work. AFAIK PIJ also has a large number of active fighters in Gaza. I don't know the exact number of fighters the left wing groups have. Ecrusized (talk) 15:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support Most of the fighting throughout the war has been predominantly and primarily Hamas. They're a huge component to the war compared to the other groups (with the exception of the PIJ). I think Hamas and PIJ should be the groups that shouldn't be in the collapsible list. Every other group should until one of them becomes more dominant and centrefold to the war. Nintenga (talk) 18:20, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Strong Oppose, this change has been implemented before consensus here was even formed. The collapsible lists serve no purpose but to obstruct information under the pretext of "undue", when in reality both PFLP and DFLP] are operating within the Gaza Strip, and using its tunnel infrastructure, which are claimed as main military objectives by Israel. Also there are no precedents for this in any other Wikipedia article, not even the Syrian Civil War, whose infobox stretches more than the width of the article's prose. Restoring the long-standing version until consensus if formed here. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:13, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: There was a consensus of 4 to 1 here if you count myself and user Vice regent. Now it's at 5 to 2. Is your argument towards not collapsing PFLP and DFLP? The main problem imo is giving marginal groups who are barely involved, such as Houthis, the same amount of highlight as Hamas in this war. Also Syrian civil war infobox is a complete mess. Not mentioning that argument is WP:OTHERSTUFF, it does not include all the belligerents of that conflict, which number over a few hundred. Ecrusized (talk) 21:20, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to start by reminding you that Wikipedia is not a democracy and that Wikipedia:Consensus states "Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." Please argue against my points so we can continue constructively editing the article without discussing other things. Hezbollah, a major belligerent, is in the collapsible list, which doesn't make much sense. The level of involvement of each group is usually elaborated in the strength section. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Its actually more confusing if you don't list all the belligerents, because then it gives the misimpression that only Hamas is doing the fighting, which is obviously not true.XavierGreen (talk) 15:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support all but PIJ. I modified the example to include it. – SJ + 00:53, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Support I believe this is a logical approach and will help organize the information presented and not give undue weight to minor parties. Jurisdicta (talk) 08:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, I think it is essentially WP:OR, unless there are WP:RSs that prove they're not important. ——🦝 The Interaccoonale ^{Will be the raccoon race} _{(talk・contribs)} 01:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Israeli commanders

Some of the Israeli commanders and leaders seem inapt. Yoel Strick is described as a former ground forces commander - till 2021, while Benny Gantz is a former defence minister who joined the wartime cabinet as Minister without portfolio. It's possible that our articles are out of date, but as most of these names are new to me, I'm reluctant to remove them from the infobox without input from others. IMO we should confine ourselves to the two or three political leaders directly responsible for defence plus heads of the major services involved. Pincrete (talk) 13:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

For Israel, I would suggest the three members of the Israeli war cabinet, and remove the rest until we have reliable sources telling us who is in command of the Israeli war effort. Failing that, I would suggest we include Herzl Halevi, Tomer Bar, and Yaron Finkelman, who would appear to be the most relevant military commanders. BilledMammal (talk) 13:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Fair points. I removed a few, leaving in Finkelman and Bar. Do we normally include both service heads and the general chief of staff like Halevi? Shin Bet was included among the forces apparently because they reported 10 active duty or veterans among those killed on the first day; no indication they're otherwise among the forces deployed. – SJ + 00:03, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd support including Halevi again since he had to respond on allegations of intelligence failures in the Israeli Reactions section. Borgenland (talk) 03:39, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi I added 2 sources about Shin Bet, it clearly states that they are active with operations against Hamas. Shadow4dark (talk) 15:06, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Possible synth

The article currently says,

Iranian role and the Israel–Saudi normalization talks

According to US intelligence reports, approximately 500 militants from Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, received specialized combat training in Iran. The training was conducted by officers from the Quds Force, the foreign-operations arm of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. Senior Palestinian officials and Iranian Brig. Gen. Esmail Qaani, the head of Quds Force, were also in attendance.[15]

At the time of the attack, Israel and Saudi Arabia were conducting negotiations to normalize relations. Saudi Arabian crown prince Mohammed bin Salman said normalization was "for the first time real"...

Is there any established connection between the (alleged) Iranian training of 500 militants and the (widely reported) Israeli-Saudi deal? If not, the two should not be connected together as if they are related.VR _talk 01:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

They are not directly related. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the article actually allges that the Iranian training and Isaeli-Saudi deal are related, based on what I can read from your quoted paragraphs in green. All the article did was to discuss the Iranian training in one paragraph, and then discuss the Israeli-Saudi in the next paragraph. Not sure if you can read an allegation of connection between two events, simply because they are expressed in different paragraphs that are next to each other. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 12:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Iranian Propaganda Poster

File:14020810000774638344554359651470 64810 fear of collapse.jpg

Non-English Iranian propaganda poster

We need to discuss this Iranian poster. It's been taken down and re-restored multiple times ([16], [17], [18]) in violation of the 1RR policy by User:Baratiiman—who has outright refused to discuss the inclusion image on the talk page. It's not in English and the "translation" on the caption as of 19:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC) is unsourced. Personally, I think it should be removed. Thoughts? -- Veggies (talk) 19:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Why? Parham wiki (talk) 19:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Aside from what I just wrote above (did you read it?), the image is of dubious copyright status (where are these crudely photoshopped images from?), and it fails to "increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter" per the image use content guidelines. -- Veggies (talk) 19:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't read it. If it is a copyright violation, it should be removed. Parham wiki (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

There has been another poster inserted showing only a translation. Borgenland (talk) 03:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Noting, I just removed the new poster as a potential copyright violation. It was uploaded originally with a twitter URL on November 1 and was later changed to a 4.0 agreement URL which said it was published November 2. Given the date discrepancy, I nominated it for deletion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Baratiiman, I recommend you come to this discussion. In your recent restoration of the poster, you classified my removal as "vandalism". Please see Wikipedia:Copyrights. Since there is a potential copyright violation, we, as Wikipedia editors, have to remove it and ensure that all potential violations are investigated and double checked. If it is a violation, it would be removed immediately from the edit history, if not, then it would be restored. Since there is a risk though, it needs to remain off the article until it is determined that it isn't a copyright violation. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Instead of addressing the concerns, said user has decided to "whatever is the equivalent of sue" on Wiki Veggies on bad faith assumptions on an improper forum. Given how unprofessional this action appears to be, should this be raised to the Incidents Noticeboard? Borgenland (talk) 04:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep. I saw that. Either way, I did some digging. Chances are, the poster is safe for Wikipedia. However, an email verification is probably needed to clear up one minor thing. Basically, the media outlet (CC license says their website is 4.0) published the poster image on Twitter on November 1 (No author). The media outlet then released the poster image on Nov 2, saying it was created on Nov 1 by a person. (1) the person who created it needs to be verified that they work for the media outlet or gave it to them & (2 - piggy backing on #1) determine if the image (posted on Twitter before the media outlet) is truly under a 4.0 license. The Commons license tag says "This is a file from the Ali Khamenei website...4.0..." (key: not all products, only website, mentioned in the CC lisense) and so forth. However, since the image was posted originally on Twitter, not the website, and was uploaded to the Commons using the Twitter source as the URL, the details need clarified. That's the whole issue. I do think it is safe, but until we are confirmed it is safe, it was best to remove it. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Additional: I think it is probably similar to the NOAA/US Gov license where it truly is all products, but since the CC license currently states only the website is 4.0, the risk is still present. And, with copyright, technicalities mean all the difference. Hope that clears up the copyright concern for everyone. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:26, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

My concern with said user is that they make incoherent, grammatically erroneous edits and bare url links and have to be prodded to fix their act. If the poster is to be uploaded again, we will probably need another fluent user to provide an accurate caption and description. Borgenland (talk) 04:27, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

There is still their assumption of bad faith on Veggies and on you. Borgenland (talk) 04:29, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I think I just got my answer ([19]). The user got warned by a Commons admin for uploading copyrighted content repeatedly. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:34, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

My concerns (apart from the copyright question) is that—at least for the "fear of collapse" poster—I don't see a plainly clear encyclopedic purpose for the image. It looks like the cheapest Juche state propaganda. At least the "power of faith determines the battle" poster was less overt and had English-language text. Apart from any copyright issues, I didn't (necessarily) oppose its inclusion. My central issue in this mess is Baratiiman's outright refusal to discuss the issue on the talk page and his edit-warring (of which I'm guilty as well), but primarily his violation of the BRD process. I'm certainly open to including an encyclopedic-quality propaganda poster for use on the article, but not if I'm going to be strong-armed by someone who won't discuss the problems. -- Veggies (talk) 04:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:I agree that the translation shouldn't be included, but I see no reason the poster itself can't be. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Upon looking at the file some more, I agree that the file appears of dubious legality. The file claims to be from a source that is in the creative commons, but the link to the file directly contradicts this. I propose we keep it off until it can be verified. I've started a discussion on the Commons. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:05, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Why do we have so many articles about this war?

We have Anti-Palestinianism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war but also Islamophobia during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, we have articles for any Israeli incursion into the West Bank (October 2023 Jenin incursion, October 2023 Tulkarm raid), we have an independent separate massacre article for pretty much every single Israeli settlement where Hamas militants entered and Israeli civilians died, we have battle articles that even after a month are composed of one or two paragrapgs (Battle of Re'im, Battle of Sufa), we have Jabalia refugee camp airstrikes but also 31 October 2023 attack on Jabalia, we have Taba and Nuweiba drone attacks but also Houthi involvement in the 2023 Hamas-Israel war, we have Violence against journalists in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war but also List of journalists killed in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war.

How is literally everything about this war such a mess in Wikipedia? I would have expected the opposite considering the huge attention it receives. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

It's much easier to create a fork

than it is to distort the consensus of high trafficked y tpages, and the ECP barrier does not apply to page creatiothe Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand. Are you skeptical that all those articles meet GNG or other notability, verifiability requirements? If so, you should probably take your concerns to AFD. Apart from that, I don't see how multiple, focused sub-articles mean that "everything about this war" is "such a mess". -- Veggies (talk) 23:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Are you skeptical that all those articles meet GNG or other notability, verifiability requirements? pretty much. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

"If so, you should probably take your concerns to AFD" -- Veggies (talk) 20:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I merged one and was reverted. Probably most editors are leaving them alone to avoid the drama; they'll get fixed eventually. I wonder if the Ukraine invasion editors faced the same issue. DFlhb (talk) 23:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there's a lot of ferment around major current events, and wars in particular spin out specific named fronts, conflicts, and events at a rapid pace. Often the creators of new articles don't know that others exist. I agree that our general style should be a small number of well-maintained and -read articles; don't be shy about proposing merges. Having a temporary proliferation of stubs can be okay, but we should keep stubs out of the main navboxes or high-profile templates that show up on scores of other pages. – SJ + 01:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

If pages on this topic are created by non-ECP people then they should be deleted. G5 criterion can be used. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I have been active in Ukraine war topics since day one, and while there's been a fair amount of forks, it's been much more organized in my personal opinion. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

In editing the Ukraine timeline, it seems that it takes a minimum of five dead for a single incident to merit its own standalone article. Borgenland (talk) 17:32, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Also Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war and Hate crimes related to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. BlackShadowG (talk) 15:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

ECP talk page notice

I propose adding the following notice at the top of this page

Feel free to copyedit. Any objections? NotAGenious (talk) 06:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Probably a good idea, the talkpage blue-lock is not that obvious. Does it have an end-date, btw? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

No, it's indefinite. NotAGenious (talk) 11:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't say indefinite, just indeterminate; if consensus is formed to do so, the protection will be removed. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 13:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I am just not sure if this is needed. Given the EC protection notice lists Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Edit, as long as you read it properly (Which anyone who wants to make an edit request should be doing anyway). There are already enough notices on this page and adding more isn't the best thing to do. Terasail^[✉️] 13:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

@Terasail likewise, it also says to discuss changes on the talk page. This new ribbon will make it explicitly clear to request changed at that link. — Karnataka ^talk 13:41, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

The page has already been indefinitely protected per this. Also there is a big box at top headed "Warning: active arbitration remedies" including the 500 edits, etc.Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but that is about the article. It's not that common for the talkpage to be bluelocked. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:00, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

It's about the talk page (the indefinite protection). Selfstudier (talk) 14:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Not per my reading:

"The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:"

And the box below states:

"...come here to the talk page to discuss..." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I will copy the link out in full, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war/Archive_25#Talk_page_indefinitely_EC_protected. OK? Selfstudier (talk) 14:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but that thread is not easily visible to editors who arrive on this talkpage wishing to comment. NotAGenious' suggested banner would provide a visible (though not necessarily actually seen) explanation on why such editors can't edit this talkpage.

When I replied "that is about the article" to you, I meant the big box at top, not the link, sorry if that was unclear. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:43, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

They are talking about a possible template for non EC users here that might end up solving the problem (although I have my doubts about people reading any of these different templates). Selfstudier (talk) 14:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully some do notice them. At least they can give regulars something easy to point to when asked (won't apply in this case, since the people who may want to ask here can't ask here). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

One idea could be to make a bigger version of the bluelocks etc with some explanatory text for talkpage use. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:19, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

U.S. reconnaissance drones operating over Gaza

According to the NYT, U.S. MQ-9 Reaper surveillance drones are aiding Israel in its hostage recovery efforts. NYT notes that the flights suggest "a more active American role".[20] Earlier in the conflict U.S. Navy destroyers were used to intercept Houthi missiles fired at Israel.[21] Once again, it might be appropriate to reconsider the U.S. involvement and whether to place it into the infobox. Ecrusized (talk) 09:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's actively running surveillance in the war, alongside numerous other forms of non-combat assistance in terms of logistics and strategic planning. Literally the only thing not confirmed is boots on the ground. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:23, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: Agree with you both. Also, maybe this AP piece is further backing your suggestion. --Mhhossein ^talk 16:16, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Not a belligerent. There is an open RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 18:10, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

clearing?

@Vice regent: Given this edit by you, can you say how the stated source supports "clearing"? --Mhhossein ^talk 16:36, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

No, but this source says "The Israeli army took more time than expected to clear the area that Hamas took in its surprise dawn raid." Would you propose a different phrasing? VR _talk 20:00, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

US support

The US is flying drones to aid the finding of hostages, this is a direct involvement in the conflict, and should be reflected in the infobox accordingly; not to mention the deployment of advisors to the Israeli military, among other things. [22]: "he US military is flying surveillance drones over Gaza as part of American efforts to help Israel locate the more than 240 hostages" Makeandtoss (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Did you completely fail to see the section above that addresses that very same exact issue you're bringing up as well as the open RfC? Why do people fail to read the talk page before opening new, repeat sections? -- Veggies (talk) 22:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

War Spillover organization

Can we figure out how this article (2023 Israel–Hamas war), the 2023 American–Middle East conflict, the American intervention in the Syrian civil war, the Syrian civil war, the Rojava conflict, the American intervention in Yemen, and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict all link up? There is overall confusion between editors specifically for the 2023 American–Middle East conflict, which currently is marked as: Part of the American intervention in the Syrian civil war, the Rojava conflict and spillover in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. However, since it is part of the Syrian civil war, it is unable to be added to the List of wars involving the United States. But if the 2023 American–Middle East conflict is spill-over from this war (2023 Israel–Hamas war) and is part of the overall Syrian civil war, how do we organize it? At the time of writing this, I marked this article as spill-over from the 2023 American–Middle East conflict, but should it be marked as spill-over from the Syrian civil war? Lot's of inter-linking and organization mess.

This discussion was started on this article talk page specifically, since it is more on how do we organize this war compared to all the other conflicts in the same region. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:42, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm lost, why do they need to "link up"? How do you actually do that? Selfstudier (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

The "link-ups" (not sure whatelse to call them) are in the infoboxes are the top. For example, currently, this war article is "Part of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and spillover from the American–Middle East conflict". If you look at the Syrian civil war infobox, it is "Part of the Arab Spring, Arab Winter, the spillover of the War in Iraq, war against the Islamic State, war on terror, Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict, Iran–Israel proxy conflict and the Kurdish–Turkish conflict". That is what I mean by "link-ups". It's a mess trying to figure it out right now. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 23:20, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

and spillover from the American–Middle East conflict Where does it say that? Maybe take a look at the category tree, see where things have been put. Selfstudier (talk) 11:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Lebanese Resistance Brigades using Hezbollah flag?

They are Hezbollah affiliated but not Hezbollah, at least according to Hezbollah. Either way, they have their own flag that could be used instead in the infobox. RisingTzar (talk) 14:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I've made the change now, if someone thinks Hezbollah flag is more relevant then let's continue discussion here. RisingTzar (talk) 14:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Table of foreign deaths

The article had a table with all of the foreign deaths. But it's removed now. Why? Aminabzz (talk) 11:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey there, I was actually the one who initially removed it in an effort to trim the article length down. This table is already present in the linked article Casualties of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war so including it on this page is a redundancy, and adding it back would increase the length considerably. I would also suggest that listing every single nation that has had a death in the main article is WP:UNDUE. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 13:43, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Total Casualties

Should we sum up the casualties in a total casualties section so that all the palestinian in west bank and gaza plus casualties in lebanon and syria are all totalled together in the battle box at the bottom? Mercenary2k (talk) 18:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions to compress the article

The article is rather on the long side. I recommend reducing the size of the "Reactions" section, and creating a new article called "Reactions to the 2023 Israel-Hamas war" (possibly merged with 2023 Israel-Hamas war protests), as was done with the 2014 war. Something similar could be done for the "casualties" section. That would be easier since there is already an article for that. JDiala (talk) 19:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Duration of invasion

This article and 2023 Hamas attack on Israel should say how long that invasion lasted. They both say it began at 6:30am, but neither say when Israel completed repelling all the militants. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 19:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Info on Mohammed Deif

The paragraph of info on Deif with the section about hamas insufficiently sourced. Not all the details mentioned there are found explicitly in the linked Financial Times article, seems there's some SYNTH going on. Regardless, I don't think a single article by a business newspaper is enough to source that kind of overview of a subject. (as opposed to facts, which we can use any reliable source for). Can we just copy in part of the lede from the page on deif? Hydromania (talk) 02:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)