Talk:2023 New Zealand general election

Revert

User:Onel5969, regarding your revert with the edit summary "Restore redirect - dupe article", which existing article is this one duplicating? Schwede66 03:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Schwede66, the target of the redirect, 2020 New Zealand general election. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

But that was the last election, not the next.  Nixinova   T   C   19:38, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL

Most of the detail in this page is pure speculation - there is a whole info box of party leaders and details about them. None of this is known nor referencable this far out. The page should probably be deleted. Or severerly edited to current facts only. Andrewgprout (talk) 07:34, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

[Leave comments at the deletion nom page instead of here.]  Nixinova   T   C   19:38, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Election date

Can someone verify my calculations for getting 13 Jan 2024 as the last possible date this election could be held? The math seems right but the date just feels wrong.  Nixinova   T   C   02:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi, was just coming to the talk page to raise something about this and saw your question. I was just skimming through the Electoral Commission's report on the last election and referendums, available at https://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-NZ/PAP_111347/5099a2c06fa9cc7049a6ffa217022ec636f5b2b9 , and found that they give a last possible date for the next election of 23 December 2023. (It's on page 63 of the pdf, or page 61 by the report's own numbering). This caught my eye, as I remembered this page showing your calculated date in 2024. The report doesn't go into the calculations behind the December date, so the point of divergence between them and you isn't clear.

One would hope that the Electoral Commission know what they're talking about, but they have made surprising errors before, and it's possible that this sentence of the report was done quickly and carelessly, as it deals with a very hypothetical situation (an election hasn't been held on the last possible date for several decades, and in any case it would be extremely unlikely that one would be scheduled just before Christmas or in January.) I'm no expert, but I can't see an obvious error in your calculations. It would be good if others could check this. MW691 (talk) 06:33, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't match the writ timeline at all but the only ways I could get 23 Dec 2023 are: 1) adding 28 days to 20 November 2023; 2) adding 60 days after 17 Oct; or (3) adding 20 days (the figure mentioned in [1]#2) after 27 Nov 2023 – rounding up to the nearest Saturday for each (I think it's meant to round down though). Weird. I'd like to see the Commission's methodology.  Nixinova   T   C   08:35, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello, picking this up again. While nosing around the more obscure corners of the Parliament website, I found a detailed Parliamentary Library research paper on the 2020 election and referendum results. It looks like it could be a useful source for a number of things, but what immediately struck me is that it confirms your calculations giving 13 January 2024 as the last possible date. I've therefore gone ahead and and cited it. [2] MW691 (talk) 06:17, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! That's a very good source, explicitly laying out exactly what we wanted. Glad my calculations were correct.  Nixinova   T   C   06:19, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Next vs 2023

For the previous discussion on this topic, see Talk:2020 New Zealand general election § 2023 New Zealand general election.

The Elections in New Zealand page says "The Constitution Act 1986 requires new parliamentary elections every three years, unless a major crisis arises or the prime minister loses the ability to command a majority in parliament." The latter isn't possible and the former is more WP:CRYSTAL so I think the idea should be reconsidered in light of an MMP majority making the possible snap election not possible.  Nixinova   T   C   21:03, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I would like to see a reliable source make that conclusion. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:52, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Make which conclusion?  Nixinova   T   C   04:00, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

That an election can only occur before three years from the last one except for the government losing confidence. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:53, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Schwede66: Is it okay if I moved it to 2023 New Zealand general election because the Prime Minister said that election will be held November next year. Villian Factman (talk) 10:59, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Where did she say this? --Pokelova (talk) 11:03, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy new year everyone! I propose that we move the article to "2023 New Zealand general election". Obviously, a 2022 snap election didn't happen. It's theoretically possible that the election will be held in January 2024 but that is simply not realistic. Is there anything that should hold us back making such a page move? Schwede66 21:34, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Pretty much all of the media and politicians are making reference to a 2023 election, at this point we might as well. --Pokelova (talk) 21:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. There does not seem to be any concerns with "2023 election". Certainly, the news media have an expectation that the election won't be scheduled for early 2024. I've added a few quotes to the article that reflect those sentiments. With that, we are in a position where we can move the article to "2023" as discussed here. I shall do so. Schwede66 08:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Populism

Is it appropriate to refer to the Opportunities Party as having a platform of populism? The Populism article describes it as frequently being associated with anti-establishment and anti-political, but although it clearly wants to change things it's never been my impression of TOP's policies that it wants to radically pull apart the political system. It seems to have been inserted by an anonymous edit on 25th July. [3] For the other parties I'd happily apply it to NZ First, which seems to rely lots on the popularity and personality of its leader. I don't know enough about the New Conservative Party. --Izogi (talk) 01:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It depends on what reliable sources say, though my own opinion is that TOP isn't populism. pcuser42 (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Same day as Australian referendum

Is the coincidence of the NZ election being on the same day as the 2023 Australian Indigenous Voice referendum any more relevant here than in Australia (where it is not relevant)? Is it important to the Kiwis? I don't know - I'm an Australian, not a NZer. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:29, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Our election date was set back in January (I think). Long before the referendum date got announced. I don't think that anyone is trying to coordinate anything; it's just a coincidence. It could possibly be covered under "See also", with a note to the timing. Schwede66 05:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

It may be relevant given that tens of thousands of Kiwis will be voting in two things on the same day. Also, it could be noteworthy given that the article I sourced mentions that it could impact the debate around Māori issues in New Zealand. I should also point out that National will be contesting Māori seats for the first time. QLDer in NSW (talk) 11:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Fine. But if it’s mentioned in the prose, it can’t also go into the "See also" section as per WP:NOTSEEALSO. Schwede66 17:10, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay. QLDer in NSW (talk) 01:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Party policies

Hi there, I have placed media coverage of party announcements and policies in the Campaigns section of the article. Was wondering whether it would be better to place these in the issues section of the article. They can then be organised thematically based on issues such as health, law and order, climate change, etc? There is a paragraph discussing Labour, Greens, National and ACT's immigration policies in the issues section but most of the campaign issues are in the campaigns section. Have looked at the 2017 New Zealand general election and the 2019 United Kingdom general election for comparisons. Let me know what you think. Andykatib (talk) 12:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

New Zealand First election manifesto

Andykatib, you wrote: On 6 October, NZ First released its election manifesto, which revised its earlier promise to drop GST on basic foods in favour of a select committee of inquiry. Not quite; this is what happened:

• NZF published its election manifesto immediately prior to last night's minor leaders' debate on TVNZ+.
• When Peters got asked by Jack Tame whether he supported Labour's proposal to remove GST off fruit and veg, he said that he didn't.
• Tame then had Peters on about not knowing what NZF had in its manifesto.
• The party then quickly updated what was on its website to bring it in line with Peters had just stated on live TV.

That's written up in the Spinoff's Bulletin, its daily newsletter. That newsletter isn't online, but you can subscribe to it for free. The relevant passage reads:

GST was also the subject of perhaps the most interesting story to emerge from last night’s TVNZ minor leaders debate. Asked whether he supported removing GST from food, NZ First leader Winston Peters said he did not. Just one problem: the party’s own manifesto, published just moments before the debate commenced, said it would do exactly that. "We will take GST off basic foods including fresh food, vegetables, meat, dairy, and fish,” its policy page read – and you can’t get much clearer than that. Still, Peters insisted that NZ First would only consider removing GST from food, and the web page was quickly updated to reflect this new policy.

I hope that's useful. Schwede66 02:10, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Schwede66: for pointing this out. Will revise that sentence and look for other sources on NZ First' manifesto. Andykatib (talk) 02:31, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I think that referencing the Bulletin should do the trick. It's from a reliable source. Its author is Anna Rawhiti-Connell. Schwede66 02:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Schwede66:, have started subscribing to the Spinoff. Haven't received that particular newsletter. Also not to sure how to cite emails. I also came across an article by Newsroom about NZ First's manifesto. That article stated that: The party had also wanted to remove GST off “basic foods including fresh food, vegetables, meat, dairy, and fish” but again as of Thursday night that had gone, and was replaced with a policy to set up a Select Committee inquiry to find out if that would be worth it, before making any changes. So, that would support the Spinoff newsletter's report that the NZ First manifesto had announced they would remove GST on basic foods but he later changed his position at the TVNZ Minor Party debate that same day. Would that be a fair way of describing what happened? Andykatib (talk) 04:17, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that would do. I suppose what really happened is that Peters had a "senior moment" (he is 78, after all) and simply forgotten what it says in the election manifesto. It was quite a funny incident; I watched the minor leaders' debate last night. With regards to a reference, you can use this: <ref>{{cite magazine |last=Rawhiti-Connell |first=Anna |date=6 October 2023 |title=Another controversy bubbles up from National’s contentious tax plan |magazine=The Bulletin<!-- Daily email newsletter published by The Spinoff; not available online --> |location=Auckland |publisher=[[The Spinoff]]}}</ref> Schwede66 04:41, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Schwede66:, will put it in later. I think Winston flip flopping on the issue of GST on foods exposes his mercurial nature. NZ First is basically his personal vehicle. Wonder what would happen to the party if God calls him home. Andykatib (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Polling booths with limited operating hours

Call it original research, but I had a chat with somebody from the Electoral Commission about this issue. I was told that the limited operating hours are no different to how the 2017 general election was run. It WAS different in 2020 but that was a deliberate effort to provide lots more polling capacity so that voters could spread out, limiting the risk of COVID infections. If this is correct, it's surprising that there is such media attention on something that is the same as it was six years ago. Schwede66 05:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

What one is better?

• 
  Option 1 (current one)
  5,126 × 3,749
• 
  Option 2
  5,126 × 3,749

Kiwiz1338 (talk) 05:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 is the format used for every New Zealand election article since MMP came in. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 05:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Excellent work. Either one works. Option 2 is cleaner as there’s less going on. But whichever we choose, we should comply with MOS:

• sentence case
• dmy dates
• macrons to reflect common names

Any questions, please ask. Schwede66 05:40, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay I fixed up what I saw needed it. How is it? Kiwiz1338 (talk) 06:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems that the situation has already been resolved, but as someone who "uses" Wikipedia rather than editing it, I find the first option far more informational and pleasing to the eye. Canada adopted a style of election maps created by Matthew. As a user, I enjoy that the map provides a wide range of information in one graphic. I understand that it's not the "template that has been used" but the template used by Matthew was implemented on the 2020 election and looks great. Please consider the value of the map outside of the "tradition." Cheers. SununuFan2016 (talk) 14:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Option 1:

• "72 Electorates|49 List Seats|61 for Majority|October 14th, 2023" needs to be "72 electorates | 49 list seats | 61 for majority | 14 October 2023"
• "ACT Party candidate Neil Christensen died on October 9th resulting in the electorate vote for the October 14th general election in Port Waikato being cancelled, a by-election for the seat has been scheduled for November 25th, 2023" needs to be "ACT Party candidate Neil Christensen died on 9 October resulting in the electorate vote for the 14 October general election in Port Waikato being cancelled; a by-election for the seat has been scheduled for 25 November 2023"
• "Due to be filled after November 25th by-election" needs to be "Due to be filled after 25 November by-election"
• "Change in Party vote" needs to be "Change in party vote"
• "Māori Electorates" needs to be "Māori electorates"
• "List Seats" needs to be "List seats"
• "Party List" (4 times) needs to be "Party list"
• "Aukland" is spelled "Auckland" (and I don't know why you have that map twice)

Same with option 2. Schwede66 07:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, I never made the option 1 map. It had already been put on the article so I feel it respectable to at least get some advice and compare what is a better option. I have made the option 2 map, which I believe should be on the article. I should have specified that I was only fixing the map I made. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 08:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I see. I didn't realise that. In that case, I shall ping Matthew McMullin for option 1 fixes. Regarding option 2, it should use sentence case for the captions at the top, i.e. "General electorates", "Māori electorates", and "List seats". Schwede66 09:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll get that done, thank you Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

If I am being honest I find this entire situation really a bit of a cheap shot, I'm a native english speaker from Ireland who spent a good 2 hours crafting this map only now for it to be inspected like a DNA samply under a microscope because I format some words or phrases wrong? Frankly I'm not sure whether I should feel more insulted by the nitpicks about grammar or the fact that Kiwiz1338 (who "thanked" me for uploading my map) is now all of a sudden insistent that the map he created be used... Matthew McMullin (talk) 09:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate the efforts you have taken and that is the reason why I thanked you for it, I do, but your results map is very very complex. Many aspects of your map are going to be thoroughly represented in the results section of the article, such as the House of Representatives and change in party vote. Also, this is not a map I have made, it is a template that has been used for the previous nine New Zealand general election articles. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 10:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

it IS a map you made, YOU are the uploader of it and as such YOU under the wikipedia upload terms you signed YOURSELF as the author of it. again there is no set "template" for any election anywhere on wikipedia. maps change as thoughts on what should be included change. and like I said previously it seems like an incredibly cheap shot and even disrespectful for you to suddenly upload your own map AFTER the one I uploaded was published (because I am doubtful you by coincidence began making yours before you saw mine) Matthew McMullin (talk) 10:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, Matthew. By template, I mean very simular result maps have been used historically NZ election wise, and I don't think it should be changed unless somthing is wrong with it. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Given you are that adament I will concede. I would however like the 2 hours I wasted creating my map back. Matthew McMullin (talk) 10:41, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your willingness to concede, and I understand that you might feel frustrated about the time you spent creating your map. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. While I can't directly refund the two hours, I'd be happy to work together to ensure that any future collaboration or projects go more smoothly and efficiently. Please feel free to reach out if you have any ideas or suggestions for improving our process. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 10:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

a word of advice from me to you, less of the condescending sarcasm would go a long way. Matthew McMullin (talk) 10:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I feel very flabbergasted you have said that, I never once had sarcasm in mind. Lets end this. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 11:06, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Matthew, are you going to address the list of issues? In its current state, we cannot use your chart. Schwede66 18:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

my chart is perfectly acceptable, I fixed the grammatical error on Auckland which was the only concern, formatting of dates is not a valid reasoning for not using a chart as the dates are still perfectly readable to any individual with an average grasp of the english language. local dialectic quirks have never been used as justification for a map not being displayed Matthew McMullin (talk) 19:17, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2 is clearly preferable IMO. Option 1 is far too overcomplicated and contains unnecessary detail. Cheers, Number 57 23:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Number 57 Obviously I'll be biased towards this as I made the option 2 map, but it is definitely more easy on the eye. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 00:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• I find Option 2 much easier to read at the size included in the article, and at my normal browser window width.-gadfium 01:26, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  how exactly have you came to that conclusion? the size of both maps is the exact same so it would be impossible for one to be "much easier" to read due to the size of it. Matthew McMullin (talk) 01:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Option 1 uses much smaller text and white text on coloured backgrounds.-gadfium 01:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  white coloured text is the standard on darker background, it would for instance be incredibly ill-minded to use black text on the black box of new zealand first or the dark blue box of national. Matthew McMullin (talk) 02:03, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• I also prefer option 2. It is less cluttered and easier to read. Kiwichris (talk) 01:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
• I'd like to mention the storage size difference as well. 29.87 MB V. 891 KB. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 02:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  storage size when we are talking about merely MB is not relevant, my map is well within wikipedia's upload limit and no modern computer is unable to download a measly 30MB Matthew McMullin (talk) 03:02, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Estimated population statistics

@Lcmortensen. The total estimate eligible population is 3,871,418. We can't base the eligible population on the total enrolled population as unenrolled people can vote too, just have to do a special vote. In the rare scenario everyone who was enrolled voted and some people that were unenrolled voted too you would have to go above 100%. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

@Kiwiz1338: - The enrolment statistic of 3,503,810 is as of 30 September 2023, so does not include enrolments since then. An updated figure will be released when the election results come in. An increase of 321,838 voters between 2020 and 2023 is also unrealistic since New Zealand's population has only increased by 132,800 in the same period.Lcmortensen (mailbox) 09:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Well as of 30 September 2023, the Electoral Commission has said that 3,871,418 can vote whether enrolled or not, it doesn't stop someone enrolling in the voting place and casting a special vote. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Removing it was probably the best idea. We can just wait for an official eligible population stat. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Notice to all who may ask about when the map shall be fully filled in

given that overseas ballots will likely hold a key balance in this election to determine whether or not National+ACT need New Zealand First or not it is likely that a full finalized results page by vote.nz will not be released for anywhere from 1-3 weeks. given this circumstance I will most likely not be able to 100% fill the map in but I shall do the bits I can. Matthew McMullin (talk) 12:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

****ing

Decensor "****ing" to "fucking" - it just looks stupid this way. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300983505/tova-podcast-white-people-are-stupid-labour-minister-ing-useless--the-latest-candidate-in-twitterx-trouble 176.104.110.11 (talk) 14:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• Just because the newspaper censors itself doesn't mean Wikipedia should, and the rules have always been against censoring expletives, slurs and curses in quotes.